FC Barcelona linked to Lance Armstrong's doping doctor

Pisco Sour

Some disturbing stuff going on in Spain which goes over most football fans' heads. This coupled with all the stuff with regards Operation Puerto and Dr Fuentes doesn't make for good reading.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/barcelona/9597078/Barcelona-deny-link-to-banned-doctor-Luis-Garcia-del-Moral-who-worked-with-Lance-Armstrong-and-US-Postal.html

folan

There have been questions dismissed about Lionel Messi and the growth treatments hes recieved since moving to spain.

this looks like another 'theyre too good to be legit' angle that occasionally gets some coverage. its backed with something more serious this time, and who knows, maybe a proper investigation will be instigated!
<sarcasm>
then again, its probably nothing.
</sarcasm>

Pisco Sour

folan wrote: »

There have been questions dismissed about Lionel Messi and the growth treatments hes recieved since moving to spain.

this looks like another 'theyre too good to be legit' angle that occasionally gets some coverage. its backed with something more serious this time, and who knows, maybe a proper investigation will be instigated!

then again, its probably nothing.

Barcelona paid for Messi's HGH programme. If it came out that Jamaican federation were giving Usain Bolt HGH at the age of 14-15 it would be worldwide scandal, but when it comes to football people just presume innocence. Typical double standards.

Spain has a horrific record with regards doping. I fail to see why the most lucrative sport of the lot would not be involved, especially given the fact that numerous Real Madrid and Barcelona players were on the books of Dr Fuentes, the same doctor who doped the likes of Alberto Contandor, Jan Ullrich and other Tour de France champions.

People need to take their head out of the sand. There are people making a mockery of football and the likes of FIFA and UEFA don't want to know! The anti-doping procedures in football and in La Liga in particular are laughable. Only 2 games a week are picked for random testing, with just 2 players picked from each game. NO testing during Sunday matches. So 4 players get tested in the entire La Liga each week. Sounds rigourous to me. :rolleyes:

Do people really think football is going to be a whole lot cleaner than other sports. Fair enough most drugs won't have the straightforward and obvious benefit like in other sports, say baseball with it's simple, repetitive movement or some athletics that depend on a single attribute but something that allows for quicker recovery, being able to push that extra few percent without being done-in at the 90 minute mark, it'll make a difference.

Pisco Sour

One of the few journalists actually willing to push the subject. Good article from Evening Herald yesterday.

http://eircomsports.eircom.net/News/doping-football.aspx

folan

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Barcelona paid for Messi's HGH programme. If it came out that Jamaican federation were giving Usain Bolt HGH at the age of 14-15 it would be worldwide scandal, but when it comes to football people just presume innocence. Typical double standards.

Spain has a horrific record with regards doping. I fail to see why the most lucrative sport of the lot would not be involved, especially given the fact that numerous Real Madrid and Barcelona players were on the books of Dr Fuentes, the same doctor who doped the likes of Alberto Contandor, Jan Ullrich and other Tour de France champions.

People need to take their head out of the sand. There are people making a mockery of football and the likes of FIFA and UEFA don't want to know! The anti-doping procedures in football and in La Liga in particular are laughable. Only 2 games a week are picked for random testing, with just 2 players picked from each game. NO testing during Sunday matches. So 4 players get tested in the entire La Liga each week. Sounds rigourous to me. :rolleyes:

updated my post, now with added sarcasm.

ThunbergsAreGo

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Barcelona paid for Messi's HGH programme. If it came out that Jamaican federation were giving Usain Bolt HGH at the age of 14-15 it would be worldwide scandal, but when it comes to football people just presume innocence. Typical double standards.

Spain has a horrific record with regards doping. I fail to see why the most lucrative sport of the lot would not be involved, especially given the fact that numerous Real Madrid and Barcelona players were on the books of Dr Fuentes, the same doctor who doped the likes of Alberto Contandor, Jan Ullrich and other Tour de France champions.
. :rolleyes:

I really have never got this, surely that isnt right, isnt it technically "performance enhancing"?

Pisco Sour

naughtb4 wrote: »

I really have never got this, surely that isnt right, isnt it technically "performance enhancing"?

HGH is a banned substance. Injecting HGH is doping. Barcelona injected Messi with HGH by the bucketload to help him grow. They didn't do it so a young Argie could have a better life for himself. They did it so he could be tall enough to be a top footballer for them. They did it for their own benefit. This is 100% doping, and if this went on in any other sport you'd have people calling for blood!

mitosis

There's no doubt that doping is rife in football. There are numerous cases in Italy over recent years (two tested from each side after each game) - including some that got caught fresh from transfer from the EPL, where testing seems to be cursory at best.

FIFA and UEFA rejected the World Anti-Doping Agency's request that football fall in with the drug testing routines applied by other sports.

Tox56

Pisco Sour wrote: »

HGH is a banned substance. Injecting HGH is doping. Barcelona injected Messi with HGH by the bucketload to help him grow. They didn't do it so a young Argie could have a better life for himself. They did it so he could be tall enough to be a top footballer for them. They did it for their own benefit. This is 100% doping, and if this went on in any other sport you'd have people calling for blood!

If (hypothetically) a doctor had given Messi this HGH to cure him of his medical condition as a toddler, and before it was known he was a talented footballer, would you consider this doping?

Mr Alan

I'm presuming some of the posts in here are taking the piss?

Frankie Lee

This article has been posted here before but is well worth a read.
http://www.german-times.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1834&Itemid=74

I'd be shocked if there wasn't widespread doping going on in soccer.
Rugby also has questions to answer with the lack of cheaters getting caught, the powers that be have no appetite to create doping scandals though.

solarith

Mr Alan wrote: »

I'm presuming some of the posts in here are taking the piss?

I seriously hope so. People complaining that Messi took a banned substance because he was diagnosed with an illness is madness.

Pisco Sour wrote:

HGH is a banned substance. Injecting HGH is doping. Barcelona injected Messi with HGH by the bucketload to help him grow. They didn't do it so a young Argie could have a better life for himself. They did it so he could be tall enough to be a top footballer for them. They did it for their own benefit. This is 100% doping, and if this went on in any other sport you'd have people calling for blood!

Erm, no.

1] HGH is banned. If you are taking it. As an adult. When playing. He wasn't.
2] Nothing is banned if it's for medical reasons.

GLaDOS

Messi took growth hormone supplements so that his level of GH would be the same as a normal developing teenager.

Suggesting that this is the same as doping is genuinely hilarious.

ScienceNerd

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Messi took growth hormone supplements so that his level of GH would be the same as a normal developing teenager.

Suggesting that this is the same as doping is genuinely hilarious.

Tin foil central

Dempsey

solarith wrote: »

2] Nothing is banned if it's for medical reasons.

Thats clearly lies. ronaldo wasnt allowed proper medical treatment whilst playing pro football for his thyroid problem because its a banned substance.

Dempsey

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Messi took growth hormone supplements so that his level of GH would be the same as a normal developing teenager.

Suggesting that this is the same as doping is genuinely hilarious.

Nothing different except the ethics and what was legal tbh

The_Kew_Tour

Too much has come out about it now at this stage for it to be taken with some seriousness. Its even developing like the Armstrong case slowly too.

Or could be just witch hunt.

Innocent till proven guilty and I dont know enough to make opinion. But no smoke without fire. But we will see.

Bodhisopha

Dempsey wrote: »

Thats clearly lies. ronaldo wasnt allowed proper medical treatment whilst playing pro football for his thyroid problem because its a banned substance.

Amused to see you pipe up on this thread when you went missing from a different thread in which i broached you on this very subject.

GLaDOS

Dempsey wrote: »

Nothing different except the ethics and what was legal tbh

One is used to gain an unfair advantage, the other is used to ensure normal growth development.

World of difference.

Dempsey

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Amused to see you pipe up on this thread when you went missing from a different thread in which i broached you on this very subject.

You're easily amused!

Bodhisopha

Dempsey wrote: »

You're easily amused!

I'd be even more amused if you didn't run away from me in that thread, to be honest.

Dempsey

ScienceNerd wrote: »

One is used to gain an unfair advantage, the other is used to ensure normal growth development.

World of difference.

ethically speaking, yea but he wouldnt be playing football only for taking a substance that is banned in sport before he became pro. plenty of medical conditions where the players quality of life is effected and the treatment is banned. whos to say barca didnt give him more that hgh treatment? not like it would be illegal or anything at the time

godtabh

ScienceNerd wrote: »

One is used to gain an unfair advantage, the other is used to ensure normal growth development.

World of difference.

Not really. With out it Messei wouldn't have developed like other potential Barcelona stars. Thats performance in enhancing

With out it crap footballer. With it world star. Very simple really

Dempsey

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I'd be even more amused if you didn't run away from me in that thread, to be honest.

lol

5starpool

If Armstrong took banned substances when he was 12 but never as a professional, I don't think there would be an issue. I've no idea why some are questioning Messi. Strangely enough, most of those doing so seem to big Ronaldo fans.

Pisco Sour

Pisco Sour wrote: »

HGH is a banned substance. Injecting HGH is doping. Barcelona injected Messi with HGH by the bucketload to help him grow. They didn't do it so a young Argie could have a better life for himself. They did it so he could be tall enough to be a top footballer for them. They did it for their own benefit. This is 100% doping, and if this went on in any other sport you'd have people calling for blood!

Is this a joke?

HGH is completely legal to be administered by a doctor if there is a growth hormone deficiency in the patient, usually applied to children for treatment for an abnormally short stature. It would have been done in Barcelona hospital by a specialist pediatric consultant, its not as if Barca's youth doctor was just injecting him casually.

Dempsey

5starpool wrote: »

If Armstrong took banned substances when he was 12 but never as a professional, I don't think there would be an issue. I've no idea why some are questioning Messi. Strangely enough, most of those doing so seem to big Ronaldo fans.

if a pro cycling team paid for the treatment, paid the doctors etc, would you not see a conflict of interest?

GLaDOS

godtabh wrote: »

Not really. With out it Messei wouldn't have developed like other potential Barcelona stars. Thats performance in enhancing

With out it crap footballer. With it world star. Very simple really

You could apply that logic to any childhood illness or condition. Getting treatment for something is not gaining an advantage, it's giving them a chance to be like any healthy child.

Pisco Sour

solarith wrote: »

Erm, no.

1] HGH is banned. If you are taking it. As an adult. When playing. He wasn't.
2] Nothing is banned if it's for medical reasons.

LOL. Barcelona paid for his treatment. That kind of throws that whole argument out the window. It would be no different to the Jamaican athletic federation paying for HGH treatment for Usain Bolt when he was 14-15.

Richard Hillman

I bet there are a lot of asthmatics in the Barcelona squad

Bodhisopha

This argument always plays out like adults explaining something to children.

The_Kew_Tour

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I bet there are a lot of asthmatics in the Barcelona squad

I dont know about Football, but I know its huge percentage in Rugby. Irish Rugby team have quite high number I can tell you. Poor lads.:)

Tox56

Pisco Sour wrote: »

LOL. Barcelona paid for his treatment. That kind of throws that whole argument out the window. It would be no different to the Jamaican athletic federation paying for HGH treatment for Usain Bolt when he was 14-15.

There's a massive difference, Bolt doesn't have a growth hormone deficiency which could be cured by HGH

woof im a dog

Pisco Sour wrote: »

LOL. Barcelona paid for his treatment. That kind of throws that whole argument out the window. It would be no different to the Jamaican athletic federation paying for HGH treatment for Usain Bolt when he was 14-15.

did usain bolt have growth hormone deficiency when he was 14-15

bohsman

Pisco Sour wrote: »

LOL. Barcelona paid for his treatment. That kind of throws that whole argument out the window. It would be no different to the Jamaican athletic federation paying for HGH treatment for Usain Bolt when he was 14-15.

If Bolt had similar problems when he was a teen I would say fair play to the Jamaican AF for helping out. Just as I would if the FAI stepped in and paid for an Irish football talent to get medical treatment.

solarith

This is bananas

IvySlayer

Didn't Paddy Kenny get a 9 month ban for taking cough medicine?

Pisco Sour

Ethan Howling Cereal wrote: »

Is this a joke?

HGH is completely legal to be administered by a doctor if there is a growth hormone deficiency in the patient, usually applied to children for treatment for an abnormally short stature. It would have been done in Barcelona hospital by a specialist pediatric consultant, its not as if Barca's youth doctor was just injecting him casually.

Again, for the slow people among us, this treatment was paid for, in full, by FC Barcelona. Did they do this out of the good of their hearts? No. They did it so a small man could be made big enough to be a footballer FOR THEIR CLUB. Imagine if a small sprinter was given HGH by an athletic federation so he could be made bigger, therefore being able to develop a longer stride? There would be uproar!

Double standards.

Pisco Sour

Tox56 wrote: »

There's a massive difference, Bolt doesn't have a growth hormone deficiency which could be cured by HGH

If Bolt had a Human growth deficiency when he was 14 and the Jamaican Federation paid for HGH treatment with the purpose of making him a world class sprinter then yes this would be fully doping.

The fact of the matter is that Barcelona paid for Messi's treatment. Did they do this as a charity gesture, to give a random Argie a better life? No, they did this for their own benefit, to make him tall enough to become a footballer and thus they would earn a massive return on this investment. They paid for the treatment not for human reasons, but for footballing reasons. This is doping.

Seriously, some of you need to read the Irish Times and broaden your sporting horizons. You Ford Super Sunday one trick ponies are pretty clueless when it comes to the wider world of sport, sports science, doping laws etc. It's rare you get intelligent discussion on this forum. It's actually a bit embarrassing.

SantryRed

Pisco Sour wrote: »

If Bolt had a Human growth deficiency when he was 14 and the Jamaican Federation paid for HGH treatment with the purpose of making him a world class sprinter then yes this would be fully doping.

The fact of the matter is that Barcelona paid for Messi's treatment. Did they do this as a charity gesture, to give a random Argie a better life? No, they did this for their own benefit, to make him tall enough to become a footballer and thus they would earn a massive return on this investment. They paid for the treatment not for human reasons, but for footballing reasons. This is doping.

Seriously, some of you need to read the Irish Times and broaden your sporting horizons. You Ford Super Sunday one trick ponies are pretty clueless when it comes to the wider world of sport, sports science, doping laws etc. It's rare you get intelligent discussion on this forum. It's actually a bit embarrassing.

:pac:

Optimalprimerib

I'm surprised that a lot of people sticking their head in the sand and laughing at anyone suggesting that this is happening. The sport is run by FIFA ffs, one of the most corrupt organisations going.

By changing the doping laws, their biggest fear is finding something, and then losing fans, ultimately losing money.

Does it happen? I don't know for sure, but it would be very interesting to find out.

The_Kew_Tour

We need Paul Kimmage views on this

GavRedKing

Thanks for the LOL's this morning, made my breakfast interesting.

Tinfoil hats for all.

Pisco Sour

Pisco Sour wrote: »

If Bolt had a Human growth deficiency when he was 14 and the Jamaican Federation paid for HGH treatment with the purpose of making him a world class sprinter then yes this would be fully doping.

The fact of the matter is that Barcelona paid for Messi's treatment. Did they do this as a charity gesture, to give a random Argie a better life? No, they did this for their own benefit, to make him tall enough to become a footballer and thus they would earn a massive return on this investment. They paid for the treatment not for human reasons, but for footballing reasons. This is doping.

Seriously, some of you need to read the Irish Times and broaden your sporting horizons. You Ford Super Sunday one trick ponies are pretty clueless when it comes to the wider world of sport, sports science, doping laws etc. It's rare you get intelligent discussion on this forum. It's actually a bit embarrassing.

Yes, your posts are quite embarrassing.


Also didn't realise HGH gave you the best ball control and technique most of us have ever seen. Oh wait..

Pisco Sour

AdamD wrote: »

Yes, your posts are quite embarrassing.


Also didn't realise HGH gave you the best ball control and technique most of us have ever seen. Oh wait..

Ball control and technique means nothing if you are not strong and fast enough to use such assets. Without HGH Messi would not have been good enough. Barcelona funded his treatment. If he funded it himself for purely health reasons then no bother, but the football club who had a direct financial interest in said person were those who funded this treatment, for SPORTING REASONS. By doing this they have gained an advantage through a banned substance. That is doping 1 0 1. No two ways about it.

Bodhisopha

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Ball control and technique means nothing if you are not strong and fast enough to use such assets. Without HGH Messi would not have been good enough. Barcelona funded his treatment. If he funded it himself for purely health reasons then no bother, but the football club who had a direct financial interest in said person were those who funded this treatment, for SPORTING REASONS. By doing this they have gained an advantage through a banned substance. That is doping 1 0 1. No two ways about it.

Did they break any rules in administering him the treatment?

_blank_

Was Eric Abidal's cancer treatment "performance enhancing"

With it - Champions League winner
Without it - Dead

Dempsey

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Did they break any rules in administering him the treatment?

No its not illegal but it raises several ethical issues and I dont know why people are so quick to dismiss them and/or refuse to discuss them in a mature manner. Whats to stop another club going one further with this, taking another kid with lots of potential, claim that he has some sort of medical issue, and pumping him full of all sorts of things that are legal for him to take until he turns professional. Clubs could more or less 'guarantee' a players development into a good footballer that they could recover their initial investment from. Does the 'its ethical because its legal' argument cover that sort of practice? No so why not discuss this grey area that clubs could be already exploiting in a hush hush manner?

Des wrote: »

Was Eric Abidal's cancer treatment "performance enhancing"

With it - Champions League winner
Without it - Dead

Pretty sure he would have gotten a UCL medal posthumously if he didnt survive his treatment :pac:

bohsman

Des wrote: »

Was Eric Abidal's cancer treatment "performance enhancing"

With it - Champions League winner
Without it - Dead

And I'll bet Barca made sure he got the best treatment all for their own self interest. Those bastards!

GLaDOS

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

I'm surprised that a lot of people sticking their head in the sand and laughing at anyone suggesting that this is happening. The sport is run by FIFA ffs, one of the most corrupt organisations going.

By changing the doping laws, their biggest fear is finding something, and then losing fans, ultimately losing money.

Does it happen? I don't know for sure, but it would be very interesting to find out.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a common enough occurrence, especially with FIFA's track record, I doubt I'm alone in that.

What is funny is saying Messi was doping by undergoing standard treatment for a hormone deficiency.