House/Apartment price rises

handlemaster

I see in the Indo they are at it again. Property prices rise for third month in a row......
http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/property-prices-rise-for-third-month-in-row-amid-hopes-the-worst-is-over-3271304.html

omahaid

Might be something to do with a dead cat I think.

eringobragh

omahaid wrote: »

Might be something to do with a dead cat I think.

Cat is currently located here:

djimi

omahaid wrote: »

Might be something to do with a dead cat I think.

Or that tax relief that the government seem to be trying to panic FTBs into availing of. See what happens to property sales and prices in January and after the next budget...

omahaid

djimi wrote: »

Or that tax relief that the government seem to be trying to panic FTBs into availing of. See what happens to property sales and prices in January and after the next budget...

Ya, maybe, either way I might hold off on the Christmas shopping trip to New York.

eringobragh

djimi wrote: »

Or that tax relief that the government seem to be trying to panic FTBs into availing of. See what happens to property sales and prices in January and after the next budget...

x3...the post where I lifted that image (UK) sums it better then i ever could:

A dead cat bounce is when vested interest people think the market is recovering and talk it up ignoring the underlining problems that made it crash in the first place. in this occasion it was backed up by massive cuts in interest rates and other stimulus. However it didn't deal with the problem that house prices were still far too expensive and people jumped in too early just before the resumption of the crash.

Idbatterim

could i just say, that you will find endless posts of mine here, condemning the rip off prices etc over the years, but i also find now, that houses or apartments could be sold for €10 and still be judged as overvalued etc! The bottom line is NONE of us know where the absolute peak or trough are, and we wont know until at least several months after this has occurred. I am interested in a house at the moment, asking about 200k ( I am talking about good house, good area, requires total gutting, but fundamentals are sound) I was going to start off with offer of 130/140k, ALLEGEDLY an offer of 160k has been made on the house, if the market deems this is the value, you either pay it or continue renting either A) indefinitely jump IF prices drop C) pay more at some stage in the future. Everyone should make up their own decision on this, because it will effect THEIR future.

Idbatterim

dead cat bounce is when vested interest people think the market is recovering and talk it up ignoring the underlining problems that made it crash in the first place. in this occasion it was backed up by massive cuts in interest rates and other stimulus. However it didn't deal with the problem that house prices were still far too expensive and people jumped in too early just before the resumption of the crash.

how much further do you think good family homes in good areas will fall?

Milk & Honey

Idbatterim wrote: »

but fundamentals are sound)

When have we heard that before?

Sleepy

I think Ronan Lyons has the right of it when he says that there are many different markets in Ireland at the moment. A friend recently bought for less than rebuild cost in the midlands and I'm aware of quite a few on the market at such prices in Mayo.

Yet, rental prices in Dublin are rising, investors are getting back into the market to take advantage of this and we are definitely seeing a stabilisation of prices in the 3/4 bedroom houses in decent areas of the city.

Certainly, prices were insanely high and I still wouldn't touch any of the apartments built during the property bubble but unless rental allowance comes down quite significantly I'm not sure I can see property prices falling that much further in the capital. I can see lots of reasons why they should (removal of mortgage interest relief, property tax, further hardship after the next budget, more defaults etc.).

But as long as there are margins to be in property rental, investors will get involved and while there are still some employed in the sectors that are doing okay (IT, Finance, Pharma, Public) reading claims of a shortage of family suitable properties and comparing their rent unfavourably against the cost of mortgage repayments, we are going to see some movement.

Mr. Loverman

Idbatterim wrote: »

could i just say, that you will find endless posts of mine here, condemning the rip off prices etc over the years, but i also find now, that houses or apartments could be sold for €10 and still be judged as overvalued etc! The bottom line is NONE of us know where the absolute peak or trough are, and we wont know until at least several months after this has occurred. I am interested in a house at the moment, asking about 200k ( I am talking about good house, good area, requires total gutting, but fundamentals are sound) I was going to start off with offer of 130/140k, ALLEGEDLY an offer of 160k has been made on the house, if the market deems this is the value, you either pay it or continue renting either A) indefinitely jump IF prices drop C) pay more at some stage in the future. Everyone should make up their own decision on this, because it will effect THEIR future.

I was reading this thinking I've heard this before (people who were buying or who just bought have been saying this exact same thing for years) and then half way through I see you are thinking of buying now...

It's funny how humans are so good at going into denial and deluding themselves about things. No offence meant Idbatterim - we all do it.

The bottom line is this - the world economy is continuing to get worse and Ireland is still fecked. Prices will continue to drop for the foreseeable future. The next few months will probably see a rise as the people with poor maths skills and panicky parents rush out to buy.

The_Conductor

The comment from Ronan Lyons about the market having stratified into several distinct submarkets- is probably as good as it gets in the article in the Indo.

There were a dearth of 3-4 bed houses (as opposed to apartments/townhouses) built in desireable areas of Dublin since 1994. These property types always have been in demand, and continue to be- and supply is in constraint, and similarly, has been down the years. If you were to move Adamstown to Clonskeagh, you'd nuke this in one foul swoop- not going to happen........

On the other hand- even in Dublin 4- we have thousands of vacant apartments- and I'm not even thinking of Sandyford/Beacon Court, which may take years to be completed. These are saleable- at the right price- and because of where they are- some are selling.

Against all this- you have weird little market conditions- such as Clare, where there just wasn't a lot of development, and there is a genuine shortage of supply in some areas- underpinning their prices- while just up the road you may have prices continuing to plummet...........

As a generalisation- and its a wide sweeping generalisation- there are areas out there nationwide, where people are willing to buy at the right price, and consider living in longterm. Most people do not consider apartment living to be longterm accommodation- and until this mindset changes (if ever), 85% of our housing stock built since 1994, is going to be seen as subpar by most potential purchasers- regardless of where it is, however for shortterm purposes, they may consider living there. Its more a case of having somewhere to live- rather than any intention of living there longterm.

At least we haven't had the 'getting your foot on the property ladder' and 'rent is dead money' euphemisms thrown back into the mix- we really are our own worst enemies.......

Mr. Loverman

smccarrick wrote: »

Most people do not consider apartment living to be longterm accommodation- and until this mindset changes (if ever), 85% of our housing stock built since 1994, is going to be seen as subpar by most potential purchasers- regardless of where it is, however for shortterm purposes, they may consider living there. Its more a case of having somewhere to live- rather than any intention of living there longterm.

The problem I have with apartments in Ireland are the insane management fees.

Does anyone know if these are coming down, or know of any examples of apartment blocks where the tenants got together and figured out a cheaper/smarter solution?

handlemaster

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

The problem I have with apartments in Ireland are the insane management fees.

Does anyone know if these are coming down, or know of any examples of apartment blocks where the tenants got together and figured out a cheaper/smarter solution?

The management fees are crazy here. Its not unusual to see 1500 per year in dublin. Then there's the property tax to come...

Mr. Loverman

handlemaster wrote: »

The management fees are crazy here. Its not unusual to see 1500 per year in dublin. Then there's the property tax to come...

What does the 1500 pay for?

Let's say there are 30 apartments in a building... that's EUR 45,000 a year. On what?!

riclad

PRICES might be up a bit now in dublin, or other citys,
people are rushing to buy to get mortgage tax credits .
theres at least 4 markets in ireland now,
citys, small towns, apartments, vs 3bed houses,
areas of low employment = low prices.
theres areas like dublin city where theres a high rental demand ,That keeps prices at a certain level.
There are areas where some houses ,apartments are being sold below the build cost.
A small town with few jobs, and a few ghost estates, the market there is completely different from say the housing market in dublin, santry or rathmines.

You can get some idea of the trough by looking at what does it cost to rent a house in area x,
is it cheaper to buy .
A couple in dublin could easily spend 80k on rent in 10 years.

peter_dublin

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

What does the 1500 pay for?

Let's say there are 30 apartments in a building... that's EUR 45,000 a year. On what?!

Insurance
Lift Maintanence (a big cost I believe)
Grounds (Gardener etc)
Bins
Sinking Fund
Electricity (Common Area Lighting and Heating)
Window cleaning etc.
Account Auditor

People will often say this is a cost only apartments have but its not true, as I know most apply to houses as well.

Our development fees are 1000 a year.
200 to sinking fund (Saving account basically)
Insurance (Big one)
Auditor (Big Cost) (Apartments Only Cost)
Bins
Gardening and Grounds cleaning (Weekly in Summer, Twice a month rest of the year)
Windows Cleaning (Every 3 Months)
Gutters Anually
Stain Doors and Plint Painting (Not out of sinking fund) But at least every two years.
General Maintaince such as two roof tiles replaced this year and Bike rack install.

Every year we have several hundred euro left over we transfer to the sinking fund.

Now most people will clean their own windows and gutters and cut their own garden etc if they own a house but the costs are not that different between owning a home and a well managed apartment complex if you had to have someone perform those tasks on your home with the amount we do to maintain a tidy development.

stevedublin

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

What does the 1500 pay for?

Let's say there are 30 apartments in a building... that's EUR 45,000 a year. On what?!

Insurance, bin collection, cleaning of hallways, gardening, lift maintenance (in some apartments) etc.

Idbatterim

I was reading this thinking I've heard this before (people who were buying or who just bought have been saying this exact same thing for years) and then half way through I see you are thinking of buying now...

It's funny how humans are so good at going into denial and deluding themselves about things. No offence meant Idbatterim - we all do it.

The bottom line is this - the world economy is continuing to get worse and Ireland is still fecked. Prices will continue to drop for the foreseeable future. The next few months will probably see a rise as the people with poor maths skills and panicky parents rush out to buy.

No offence taken, I dont even have mortgage approval yet! But like I said everyone has to make their own judgement. this is my situation, renting with the bro, paying 1,000 per month, dont know how we got the place that cheap to be honest, as other 2 beds in same development which are lower spec and worse aspect than ours are now asking 1150-1200. I actually wanted to move from where we are now to better location when lease is up, the rents for properties Id want to move to, have definetly gone up, Im not prepared to live in a kip or pay someone else's mortgage indefinetly (dont worry you wont hear rent is dead money from me) here's the thing, if I could get this property at what I deem a reasonable price 1) no more 1000 per month rent 2) far better location 3) would be 3 or 4 bed, my other bro currently wants to move out of family home i.e mortgage would be slightly more than half of the 2 bed apartment 4) it requires renovation, with 20k, I reckon we can add 80-100k in value in 2-3 months 5) currently in apartment, this place is semi detached, off main road, off street parking in vastly superior location 6) mostly importantly, I havent seen something which checks this many boxes at that price in quite some time!

Idbatterim

A couple in dublin could easily spend 80k on rent in 10 years.

a couple could easily spend 1,000 per month on a decent apartment, even allowing for no rent increases, that's 120,000 over 10 years!

Luca Brasi

peter_dublin wrote: »

Insurance
Lift Maintanence (a big cost I believe)
Grounds (Gardener etc)
Bins
Sinking Fund
Electricity (Common Area Lighting and Heating)
Window cleaning etc.
Account Auditor

People will often say this is a cost only apartments have but its not true, as I know most apply to houses as well.

Our development fees are 1000 a year.
200 to sinking fund (Saving account basically)
Insurance (Big one)
Auditor (Big Cost) (Apartments Only Cost)
Bins
Gardening and Grounds cleaning (Weekly in Summer, Twice a month rest of the year)
Windows Cleaning (Every 3 Months)
Gutters Anually
Stain Doors and Plint Painting (Not out of sinking fund) But at least every two years.
General Maintaince such as two roof tiles replaced this year and Bike rack install.

Every year we have several hundred euro left over we transfer to the sinking fund.

Now most people will clean their own windows and gutters and cut their own garden etc if they own a house but the costs are not that different between owning a home and a well managed apartment complex if you had to have someone perform those tasks on your home with the amount we do to maintain a tidy development.

I congratulate you on your excellent response. People who own apartments should ask themselves how much a year it would cost to obtain the above servies if they were living in a semi detached.
The problem that arises with management fee levels is that too many owners takae no interest in the management of the company of which they are a shareholder and have the Homer Simpson attitude "why cant someone else do it?"
Active monitoring of the managing agent and costs can make a big difference.

Sleepy

A large part of the complaints about management fees are simply based on the common Irish experience of growing up in your parents 3 bed semi / rural dormer/bungalow where there was no need for public liability insurance, lift maintenance, auditors etc and the maintenance was done for the once off purchase price of a lawnmower, ladder and basic toolset followed by the occasional purchase of a few cans of paint.

I know which option I'd opt for when given the choice of paying for a gardener, window cleaner, painters and gutter cleaning or giving up a few afternoons during the summer.

peter_dublin

Sleepy wrote: »

A large part of the complaints about management fees are simply based on the common Irish experience of growing up in your parents 3 bed semi / rural dormer/bungalow where there was no need for public liability insurance, lift maintenance, auditors etc and the maintenance was done for the once off purchase price of a lawnmower, ladder and basic toolset followed by the occasional purchase of a few cans of paint.

I know which option I'd opt for when given the choice of paying for a gardener, window cleaner, painters and gutter cleaning or giving up a few afternoons during the summer.

True but on the other hand there are many who are well enough off or hate it enough that they will pay others to do so for them, In five years I've never lifted a brush, pushed a lawnmover or the like :-) and I am happy with it that way, I just sit out and drink my wine when its done, on the other hand after 40 years of cutting large gardens the father swears his next move will be to an apartment :-)

murphaph

Sleepy wrote: »

unless rental allowance comes down quite significantly I'm not sure I can see property prices falling that much further in the capital.

The rent supplement thing in Dublin has been put to bed IMO. I can now get more for my 3 bed semi on the open market than I can get under the RS system, so RS is not putting a floor under the prices of 3 bed semis in Dublin IMO (if it ever was, not sure anymore tbh).

They can keep cutting RS now, it will just force RS tenants into lower quality/smaller homes than they really need, driving up the prices of "crap" accommodation in the process.

In Dublin at least, rents have stabilised for houses (don't watch other stuff) over the past year and are creeping up again as demand appears strong.

Zamboni

murphaph wrote: »

In Dublin at least, rents have stabilised for houses (don't watch other stuff) over the past year and are creeping up again as demand appears strong.

Based on what?
Asking prices on daft?
EA anecdotal evidence?
Astrology?

Milk & Honey

Zamboni wrote: »

Based on what?
Asking prices on daft?
EA anecdotal evidence?
Astrology?

There are plenty of threads on this forum from prospective tenants finding it harder to get a place, finding they have to pay more, can't bargain down. Maybe they are all liars.

Henry Ford III

We pay €500 p.a. on a development of 8 semi detached houses, to include ins, bins, ESB for communal lighting, maintenance, and audit fees.

We bought a lawnmower from communal funds and maintain the grass ourselves.

TwoShedsJackson

Charlie Weston says the property 'nightmare' may be over. :pac:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/charlie-weston/charlie-weston-whisper-it-but-property-nightmare-may-be-over-3271861.html

handlemaster

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Charlie Weston says the property 'nightmare' may be over. :pac:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/charlie-weston/charlie-weston-whisper-it-but-property-nightmare-may-be-over-3271861.html

Its probably near the bottom. You can still see stupid money been asked for houses. The start of next year will be telling. Higher taxes etc on homes and pay packets. Its typical that prices bounce along for a few years before real gains are seen. But ultimately cheaper housing is best for all.

gurramok

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Charlie Weston says the property 'nightmare' may be over. :pac:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/charlie-weston/charlie-weston-whisper-it-but-property-nightmare-may-be-over-3271861.html

Charlie must have been sarcastic as he does not give a single shred of evidence of the "nightmare been over" post Dec 31st. A govt inspired incentive maybe encouraging a flurry of buyers for now, what other incentives are there in 2013 to keep things moving? Nothing.

handlemaster

gurramok wrote: »

Charlie must have been sarcastic as he does not give a single shred of evidence of the "nightmare been over" post Dec 31st. A govt inspired incentive maybe encouraging a flurry of buyers for now, what other incentives are there in 2013 to keep things moving? Nothing.

Or he just had a quota of words to put in

Idbatterim

A govt inspired incentive maybe encouraging a flurry of buyers for now, what other incentives are there in 2013 to keep things moving? Nothing.

nothing yet, they may well extend mortgage interest relief deadline, or say they will increase stamp duty half way through the year etc...

handlemaster

Idbatterim wrote: »

nothing yet, they may well extend mortgage interest relief deadline, or say they will increase stamp duty half way through the year etc...

they should leave the market alone. interfering when market forces should decide how much your home should be

asherbassad

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

What does the 1500 pay for?

Let's say there are 30 apartments in a building... that's EUR 45,000 a year. On what?!

Well, admittedly it's a lot but there are usually contracts with companies to come and fix any sh!t that needs fixing and these contracts are like support contracts....i.e. pay a certain amount each month to the maintenance even if nothing breaks down. Also there is cleaning costs.....hallways, windows, surrounding grounds. If there's an elevator in the building then that's a big maintenance cost.
Count yourself lucky. My maintenance costs are 300 a month.

Idbatterim

I cant see them not interfering, after these alleged last few months of price rises, if they rise another few months, its likely to me another self fulfilling prophecy (of rising prices). Remember, the only ones who want prices to drop further are the first time buyers, everybody else wants to see them rise, for numerous reasons!

Zamboni

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There are plenty of threads on this forum from prospective tenants finding it harder to get a place, finding they have to pay more, can't bargain down. Maybe they are all liars.

I know of two rented properties recently rented in my area that went for €1,000 - both advertised at €1,200.
It would be naieve of me to draw any conclusions on the rental market based upon it though...

handlemaster

alot of 3 bed houses in Dublin west are around the 1000 mark and wouldn't be anything special at that.

leonidas83

Zamboni wrote: »

I know of two rented properties recently rented in my area that went for €1,000 - both advertised at €1,200.
It would be naieve of me to draw any conclusions on the rental market based upon it though...

Its all about what your looking for though really isnt it, some 3 beds considering the state of them would be lucky to fetch anywhere near 1000 a month whereas other ones considering their location & condition would be able to command prices much higher than that.

1000 for a three bed in the Dublin area does sound like really good value though

handlemaster

leonidas83 wrote: »

Its all about what your looking for though really isnt it, some 3 beds considering the state of them would be lucky to fetch anywhere near 1000 a month whereas other ones considering their location & condition would be able to command prices much higher than that.

1000 for a three bed in the Dublin area does sound like really good value though

1000 would be normal enough an average house like below in good location to Shopping centre business parks etc. The more people put off the higher rents will go.

http://www.rent.ie/houses-to-let/Ashfield-Green-Huntstown-Dublin-15/1275613/

Zamboni

handlemaster wrote: »

alot of 3 bed houses in Dublin west are around the 1000 mark and wouldn't be anything special at that.

leonidas83 wrote: »

Its all about what your looking for though really isnt it, some 3 beds considering the state of them would be lucky to fetch anywhere near 1000 a month whereas other ones considering their location & condition would be able to command prices much higher than that.

1000 for a three bed in the Dublin area does sound like really good value though

Not sure what you two are on about but it's got absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making to murph and M&H.

StillWaters

Idbatterim wrote: »

I cant see them not interfering, after these alleged last few months of price rises, if they rise another few months, its likely to me another self fulfilling prophecy (of rising prices). Remember, the only ones who want prices to drop further are the first time buyers, everybody else wants to see them rise, for numerous reasons!

Agreed, they are not going to want to dent the fragile return of consumer confidence. I see a6-12 month extention.

Could be wrong though, but that's what I'm hearing.

Monty Burnz

handlemaster wrote: »

1000 would be normal enough an average house like below in good location to Shopping centre business parks etc. The more people put off the higher rents will go.

http://www.rent.ie/houses-to-let/Ashfield-Green-Huntstown-Dublin-15/1275613/

I'm not sure why. It's not like the number of dwellings is falling - so it's a zero-sum game. If more people rent, then rental stock will increase. Otherwise the number of empty properties that are making no return has to increase, and who (other than NAMA) can afford to keep an empty property these days?

murphaph

Zamboni wrote: »

Not sure what you two are on about but it's got absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making to murph and M&H.

If someone is asking for 1200 on daft and it goes for 1k then that proves the landlord was probably being unrealistic.

My point is simply that I have been watching D15 3 bed semis over the past few years (as that is what I rent out myself) and the asking prices have held firm recently and indeed are creeping up again.

So, IMO, regardless of what these properties go for, rents are stabilising/creeping up in D15 unless the difference between asking prices and actual rents is growing, which I don#t believe it is.

My tenants would have a lot of contact with other tenants in the area (foreign nationals, tight expat community among them) and they would have been quite vocal as rents were falling to get their reduction (fair enough). I haven't heard a peep out of them in 18 months now.My own experiences are telling me that rents are not in freefall or anything like it in D15. They are now holding firm, regardless of what the RS rates do.

murphaph

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm not sure why. It's not like the number of dwellings is falling - so it's a zero-sum game. If more people rent, then rental stock will increase. Otherwise the number of empty properties that are making no return has to increase, and who (other than NAMA) can afford to keep an empty property these days?

It's not quite this simple IMO.

As young couples (and indeed singletons) start realising that the days of people in their 20's getting easy mortgages are over (for the time being) they will start to ask themselves some serious questions like: "can we really stay living at home until we're 35 and have saved enough of a deposit to get approval, or do we want to live our lives now and live together in rented accommodation?"

In Berlin, the recent trend driving rent hikes is the demand from singletons. 1 bed and studio properties have seen the largest increases in rent as demand has surged in recent years. This has caused a ripple effect in all larger properties too, but the 1 beds are the shortest in supply.

Monty Burnz

murphaph wrote: »

It's not quite this simple IMO.

As young couples (and indeed singletons) start realising that the days of people in their 20's getting easy mortgages are over (for the time being) they will start to ask themselves some serious questions like: "can we really stay living at home until we're 35 and have saved enough of a deposit to get approval, or do we want to live our lives now and live together in rented accommodation?"

In Berlin, the recent trend driving rent hikes is the demand from singletons. 1 bed and studio properties have seen the largest increases in rent as demand has surged in recent years. This has caused a ripple effect in all larger properties too, but the 1 beds are the shortest in supply.

But you take my point that it is a zero-sum game? People die/move to homes/downsize too, freeing up houses. If there is more rental demand, then more of these will end up being purchased by landlords.

The total supply of housing remains the same (more or less - some stuff is still being built, and other places perhaps fall out of use).

Milk & Honey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But you take my point that it is a zero-sum game? People die/move to homes/downsize too, freeing up houses. If there is more rental demand, then more of these will end up being purchased by landlords.

The total supply of housing remains the same (more or less - some stuff is still being built, and other places perhaps fall out of use).

That assumes that there is no increase in the household formation rate and that household compositions remain the same.

murphaph

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But you take my point that it is a zero-sum game? People die/move to homes/downsize too, freeing up houses. If there is more rental demand, then more of these will end up being purchased by landlords.

This is not necessarily true. I myself am getting fed up of renting out just one house. The law just doesn't provide enough protection to me from overholding tenants and so on. Risks are really quite high and the returns aren't great. For returns to go up, property prices would need to fall a lot more or rents would need to go up a lot more, neither of which I believe will happen tbh.

If returns stay around 5% (you might get 6% or 7% on 1 beds at current asking prices however, but property taxes are coming and the government will levy them on the owner, not the tenant) then the risks are too high. You can get slightly lower returns for no or almost no risk with government bonds (ok, some would they they are also risky!) and of course, no work whatsoever. You invest and forget.

If being a landlord is not attractive enough, people will shy away from it. Properties will sit unsold.

I don't believe we are going to see more older people downsizing to 1 or 2 bed homes and selling the 3 or 4 bed. We haven't seen much of it in Ireland so far and I believe the government will let pensioners off wrt property taxes so it won't be forced this way. This is effectively where the housing space evaporates: people get older, do not downsize and their kids want out, so they go rent 2 one bed units.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But you take my point that it is a zero-sum game? The total supply of housing remains the same (more or less - some stuff is still being built, and other places perhaps fall out of use).

This is true, but before people might have hung on in at home saving, whereas now when they are facing the reality that the will have to rent to be able to live away from home, they will just start renting earlier as there's "nothing" to save for and living at home in your 20's is "not cool".

This is all just my take on it, I don't claim to have a crystal ball and things might turn out the way you say

murphaph

Milk & Honey wrote: »

That assumes that there is no increase in the household formation rate and that household compositions remain the same.

And this is what is changing rapidly in Berlin (and could easily change rapidly in Ireland). Previously, particularly in East Berlin, people got married very young, 18-20 was normal and lived in a 1 bed for a year until the babies started coming, when they would move into larger units and so on.

These days, people are remaining single much longer or choosing not to move in with their partner for quite some time. This is putting pressure on rents in Berlin, though housing stock here is even more static than in Ireland!

I see the same happening in Irish cities at least as people start realising that renting is the only way they will be able to live independently for the foreseeable future. As this happens, it'll put pressure on couples who would have previously been going for 1 beds and they in turn will start looking at 2 beds and up the ladder it goes, at least that's how it works here.

Monty Burnz

Milk & Honey wrote: »

That assumes that there is no increase in the household formation rate and that household compositions remain the same.

Indeed, there are a lot of assumptions in there. But you are referring to the demand side of the equation, I am referring to the supply side.

Milk & Honey

People want to live in houses, not on assumptions.

Monty Burnz

Milk & Honey wrote: »

People want to live in houses, not on assumptions.

Uh...ok...

People want to be able to afford property, not properly ford an able.