Would this be a legal overtaking manoeuvre?

shayser

Car A and B are travelling in the direction of the red arrows. Car C is travelling in the direction of the green arrows. There may or may not be a line of traffic following car C. There are no cars in the green overtaking lane.

Can A overtake B in this scenario? Is it enough for the green overtaking lane to be clear or should both green lanes be clear?

CiniO

Would you be able to link a google streetview view of such setup anywhere in Ireland?

bazz26

Not sure on the legalities of it but I would imagin that overtaking only applies when both oncoming lanes are empty. From a common sense point of view I wouldn't do it. Who knows what car C might do, they might have to swerve into the overtaking lane suddenly for whatever reason and be hit by car B head on. Also what if there was a car D out of view behind car C that decided to overtake car C. Expect the unexpected as they say.

Compton

I've also never seen this in Ireland, agree with Bazz too, only if both lanes are free.

repsol

In my opinion it would be legal because the line on A+B side is broken.It would be inadvisable to attempt the manouvre if there are cars in front of C which he may try to overtake by changing lanes or if there is a junction ahead of C which he may wish to turn right at.Never seen this road configuration in Ireland though

shayser

Yeah, I would have thought it common sense to move only if both lanes were free but was just wondering about the legalities.

Google maps.

alanmc

Compton wrote: »

I've also never seen this in Ireland, agree with Bazz too, only if both lanes are free.

Sometimes you see it going up a hill so cars can overtake slower vehicles. I'm pretty sure in most cases the opposing lane is single solid white line though.

drunkmonkey

It used to be like that on the old nenagh to limerick road and parts of the cashel cork road as far as I can remember.
Yes if the overtaking lane is free and there is no car overtaking or about to overtake you would cross the broken white line to overtake. That's the way I always understood it to work.
Golden rule, only overtake if its safe to do so and do it quickly.

tu2j2

I wouldn't go near the other side of the road with an oncoming car, what about the car/bike wedged up car C's hole that you can't see that decides to overtake at the same time you do?

Cedrus

The broken line immediately to A & B's right says it is legal.
This looks like a climbing lane to me I know loads of layouts like this, TBH you'd never get anywhere in west cork if you couldn't overtake here.

True Car C could do something mad but there's no end to the mad manoeuvres that are possible and that's without considering tractor D that might appear out of the gateway you haven't even seen yet.

CiniO

shayser wrote: »

Can A overtake B in this scenario? Is it enough for the green overtaking lane to be clear or should both green lanes be clear?

Definitely both lanes must be clear before you can start overtaking.
Overtaking while there are other cars, even only on their nearside lane, is extremally dangerous.

Imagine you are driving behind car C and want to overtake.
You look in a mirror, nothing coming behind ya, and knowing there are 2 lanes both in your direction you just pull over. Then you suddenly find a car coming straigh toward you on your lane.

Here's the quote from ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997

(2) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, unless the roadway ahead of the driver—


( a ) is free from approaching traffic, pedestrians and any obstruction, and


( b ) is sufficiently long and wide to permit the overtaking to be completed without danger or inconvenience to other traffic or pedestrians.

As you can see, it cleary states "roadway" must be clear, not "lane" - "roadway ahead of the driver is clear from approaching traffic"...

CiniO

Cedrus wrote: »

The broken line immediately to A & B's right says it is legal.
This looks like a climbing lane to me I know loads of layouts like this, TBH you'd never get anywhere in west cork if you couldn't overtake here.


True Car C could do something mad but there's no end to the mad manoeuvres that are possible and that's without considering tractor D that might appear out of the gateway you haven't even seen yet.

It is legal to overtake there, but provided there is no oncoming traffic. No matter on which lane is that traffic.

CiniO

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Yes if the overtaking lane is free and there is no car overtaking or about to overtake

No - that's not enough.
Only when there is no approaching traffic at all on both lanes, then you can overtake.

St. Leibowitz

I think as drawn, it would be legal, although foolish.

Climbing lanes are usually no overtaking on the single carrigeway. Don't think I ever seen one that wasn't, so I suspect the drawing is incorrect for Ireland.

Example of a climbing lane and markings.

http://goo.gl/maps/rMQnX

Having read above extracts from the road traffic regulations, I've changed my mind on teh legality. However, I don't think you'd ever see these markings in Ireland.

shayser

St. Leibowitz wrote: »

I think as drawn, it would be legal, although foolish.

Climbing lanes are usually no overtaking on the single carrigeway. Don't think I ever seen one that wasn't, so I suspect the drawing is incorrect for Ireland.

Example of a climbing lane and markings.

http://goo.gl/maps/rMQnX

The Google Maps link in post #6 shows the road in question.

drunkmonkey

CiniO wrote: »

No - that's not enough.
Only when there is no approaching traffic at all on both lanes, then you can overtake.

I dunno why would the car on the carriageway be entitled to block 2 lanes, I'd overtake in that situation if I had a broken white line.

CiniO

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I dunno why would the car on the carriageway be entitled to block 2 lanes, I'd overtake in that situation if I had a broken white line.

It's not him who is blocking two lanes.
It's you who must not overtake if there is approaching traffic on the roadway. Rules are really clear here - no doubts.

IMHO overtaking like that should be treated as dangerous driving. (assuming there's few cars oncoming on the furthest lane)

K.Flyer

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I dunno why would the car on the carriageway be entitled to block 2 lanes, I'd overtake in that situation if I had a broken white line.

You cannot cross into the oncoming lanes if there is oncoming traffic, no matter which lane they are using.
You wait for them to pass and only when the road is clear of oncoming traffic and you are sure that you can complete the overtake before a junction and before more approaching traffic arrives, then you can move out.

Guy:Incognito

How did the Google car photograph itself 20 metres behind?

challengemaster

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How did the Google car photograph itself 20 metres behind?

St. Leibowitz

shayser wrote: »

The Google Maps link in post #6 shows the road in question.

Sorry, yes it does. Wow. Haven't noticed anything like that before. What's the betting I see that configuration everywhere I go now.

shayser

I was wondering because I see this situation on this road a lot. There's a few junctions on that road too. Sometimes, when I would be in a row of cars behind car C one or two of them would flash their lights at the overtaker. I thought they must know the law better than me!

wonski

shayser wrote: »

I was wondering because I see this situation on this road a lot. There's a few junctions on that road too. Sometimes, when I would be in a row of cars behind car C one or two of them would flash their lights at the overtaker. I thought they must know the law better than me!

I can believe in one car knowing the rotr, but two of them at the same time???

I would overtake as long as it is safe - vehicle in the left lane could be dangerous, so it is up to the driver's judgement.
At least on this straight road there is broken line.

As for legality-leave it to the guards.

Tallon

I've seen that layout a few times throughout Irish roads and have overtaken in these circumstances

It's the exact same situation if a lad pulled into a hard shoulder to let you pass! You would pass even if there was a car coming (assuming its safe to so so)

If a bike overtook car C, he'd be in the wrong as he didn't over take when it was safe to do so!

Seasoft

As the scenario as laid out in the OP diagram is are in Ireland, I doubt of overtaking would be advisable though probably legal.
However, I have seen this setup many times in France and Spain and there the single lane traffic may overtake into the outer climbing lane if it is clear even if there is traffic in the inner climbing lane. I've experienced this often.

Here is an example from Spain.
http://goo.gl/maps/zwSga.
Note that in the section of streetview shown the single lane has a broken line on its side. A few kilometers further along and there is a single continuous line sono overtaking allowed there.

650Ginge

CiniO wrote: »

Would you be able to link a google streetview view of such setup anywhere in Ireland?

Are you saying you haven't seen this style of road marking?

knucklehead6

Tallon wrote: »

I've seen that layout a few times throughout Irish roads and have overtaken in these circumstances

It's the exact same situation if a lad pulled into a hard shoulder to let you pass! You would pass even if there was a car coming (assuming its safe to so so)

If a bike overtook car C, he'd be in the wrong as he didn't over take when it was safe to do so!

I would have no problem overtaking in the scenario here, but if you add mythical Bike M into the equation, then Bike M would have priority over Car A in terms of an overtaking manoeuvre. After all, he has to have priority over oncoming traffic on lanes that are laid out for his direction of travel.

challengemaster

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I would have no problem overtaking in the scenario here, but if you add mythical Bike M into the equation, then Bike M would have priority over Car A in terms of an overtaking manoeuvre. After all, he has to have priority over oncoming traffic on lanes that are laid out for his direction of travel.

I'd imagine it wouldn't matter what direction of travel the lanes are laid out for, if a person coming in the opposite direction has already started overtaking, they have priority.

tritium

wonski wrote: »

As for legality-leave it to the coroner.

fixed your post for accuracy

djimi

Regardless of legality, from a safety point of view I probably wouldnt overtake in this scenario. If car C is not being followed by anyone then just wait the couple of seconds until they pass and then overtake in complete safety. If car C is being followed by someone then you are taking a gamble by crossing into the overtaking lane that this car might move into in order to pass out car C.

Also, in the Google maps example in post 6, do the markings seem odd to anyone else? The broken lines of the double line seems far too spaced out; much more so that I would usually expect them to be.

knucklehead6

challengemaster wrote: »

I'd imagine it wouldn't matter what direction of travel the lanes are laid out for, if a person coming in the opposite direction has already started overtaking, they have priority.

i dunno.....i'd assume that if i was on a 2 lane part of a 2+1 road i'd have priority for L2.

probably wouldn't over take in the scenario described above anyway. Not a part of the high horse brigade but in all honesty how much time would i save by overtaking??

walus

Of course it is legal to overtake in this situation. The driver of the car B must ensure though there is no oncoming traffic during the overtaking in the middle lane. It kills me how little people know about driving in this country.

RobAMerc

judging by this forum lately the level of knowledge of basic driving is absolutely shocking in this country.
Have we had a huge spill over of people from the Learning to Drive forum ?

K.Flyer

RobAMerc wrote: »

judging by this forum lately the level of knowledge of basic driving is absolutely shocking in this country.
Have we had a huge spill over of people from the Learning to Drive forum ?

According to current RSA web site figures, Ireland still has less than a 55% driving test pass rate.
Maybe that answers that question.

GiftGrub100

The road to Dungarvan from Cork has this layout, see plenty of overtaking on this because it is legal to overtake on this type of road.Dungarvan1.JPG

renofan

I have done and will continue to pass in that situation, there a few of them roads down in Cork. Broken white line and no traffic in the lane directly beside mine means its legal imo.

hi5

There was a few roads like that around Waterford, notorious for bad crashes, Most have been upgraded, Waterford to Clonmel has had wire barriers (cheesecutters) fitted. Waterford to New Ross changed to hatched white lines.
But Waterford to Dungarvan seems to have escaped.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=google+maps+ireland&hl=en&ll=52.131313,-7.563291&spn=0.001795,0.005284&hnear=Ireland&gl=ie&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=52.131313,-7.563291&panoid=_Ts5LyrOBriLknSBBhTeDw&cbp=12,337.49,,0,7.24

Cookie_Monster

Loads of roads like that in NZ, overtaking lanes on 2+1 roads. On all of them you can overtake coming the opposite direction as per the description in the OP, same broken line divider. Everyone does it, perfectly safe IMO.

I wouldn't hesitate to overtake in the above situation here either.

niloc1951

Compton wrote: »

I've also never seen this in Ireland, agree with Bazz too, only if both lanes are free.

It's a common layout on inclines where an overtaking lane is provided. Overtaking as suggested should be ok unless you have an idiot like the one in this view coming towards you Dungarvan, Co. Waterford

walus

niloc1951 wrote: »

It's a common layout on inclines where an overtaking lane is provided. Overtaking as suggested should be ok unless you have an idiot like the one in this view coming towards you Dungarvan, Co. Waterford

Driving slow in the fast/overtake lane - standard in this country too. I see it every day.

Tomk1

Seen this layout many times, Cork-Mallow road, the old Cork-Dublin road, Cahir? before the motorway.

If car C was doing near speed limit, should be enough time to wait till they're passing then overtake, but vechicle C could be a tractor or other slow moving vechicle, then can't see any problemas they wouldn't have the manoeuvrability to cross into the fast-lane for whatever reason. Also if they did cross into the fast lane they still would have to indicate, so if car B put it's indicator, then vechicle C also put on it's indicator, B has to hold off.

Many times I've come across something similar, a single carriage with a slow moving vechicle travelling inside/on the yellow line of the oncoming traffic lane, with a broken white line on my side, still think to wait till it's passing just for safty.

langdang

The Knocknagoshel bypass (Castleisland-Abbeyfeale) has some of these layouts.
I have overtaken there, but I'm very wary of it - the oncoming traffic have usually been held up for a few miles and all hell can break loose when they finally reach the climbing lanes.
Cork Mallow road has some too.

dudara

CiniO wrote: »

Would you be able to link a google streetview view of such setup anywhere in Ireland?

This road configuration is present on the Kinsale Road, Cork between Cork Airport and Kinsale Rd Roundabout.

Downhill is a single lane, while uphill has two lanes. The issue is compounded by the fact that a lot of drivers will sit in the overtaking lane, despite the driving lane being empty.

walus

Lets also remember that in the situation posted here car C has no right to go into fast lane. The driver of the car B needs to ensure he has enough time, distance and visibility for overtaking so no other car can possibly get into the fast lane while he is doing this maneuver. It is really as simple as that.

djimi

langdang wrote: »

The Knocknagoshel bypass (Castleisland-Abbeyfeale) has some of these layouts.
I have overtaken there, but I'm very wary of it - the oncoming traffic have usually been held up for a few miles and all hell can break loose when they finally reach the climbing lanes.
Cork Mallow road has some too.

This is pretty much the reason why I wouldnt cross that line unless both lanes are clear. Call it defensive driving or whatever but there are too many morons who will change lanes without looking and who will make the assumption that just because there is an overtaking lane it will be safe to move into it provided nothing is coming up from behind. Its just not a risk I feel its worth taking to be honest.

Stinicker

Of course it is legal and I have often overtaken cars here for eg. Once the uphill overtaking lane is empty it is fine, there is far too many pathetic chicken drivers on the road today and you have to get around them. Since the speed vans were introduced the situation has deteriorated altogether and then you have miserable gits driving slow to save fuel. Overtaking is a part of normal driving and the main thing is to have enough visibility and judge the maneuver.

I was behind a car yesterday for around 8kms doing around 45km/h and there was no way none of the three drivers behind him would overtake. I just sank the shoe and took the four of them out of it and then mr. slow coach up front being the jackass he obviously is decided he'd speed up to try hold me back as if he owned the road. What an absolute tool. Another three km/s later I got stuck behind a tractor who pulled in at the 1st layby after about 200metres, a driver with manners and courtesy at least.

Tallon

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I would have no problem overtaking in the scenario here, but if you add mythical Bike M into the equation, then Bike M would have priority over Car A in terms of an overtaking manoeuvre. After all, he has to have priority over oncoming traffic on lanes that are laid out for his direction of travel.

You're wrong. If I'm already overtaking and it was clear when I did, I have priority

CiniO

walus wrote: »

Of course it is legal to overtake in this situation. The driver of the car B must ensure though there is no oncoming traffic during the overtaking in the middle lane. It kills me how little people know about driving in this country.

renofan wrote: »

I have done and will continue to pass in that situation, there a few of them roads down in Cork. Broken white line and no traffic in the lane directly beside mine means its legal imo.

Stinicker wrote: »

Of course it is legal and I have often overtaken cars here for eg. Once the uphill overtaking lane is empty it is fine, there is far too many pathetic chicken drivers on the road today

No lads.
It isn't legal. It's clearyly against the law to overtake in situation like on the picture, and I would even call it dangerous driving if there was few cars behind car C.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81396464&postcount=11

Roverjim

CiniO wrote: »

No lads.
It isn't legal. It's clearyly against the law to overtake in situation like on the picture, and I would even call it dangerous driving if there was few cars behind car C.

What kind of a numpty thinks that its not legal??

CiniO

Roverjim wrote: »

What kind of a numpty thinks that its not legal??

You can't overtake when there are oncoming cars on the same roadway.

Roverjim

CiniO wrote: »

You can't overtake when there are oncoming cars on the same roadway.

Their is two lanes!