God's love

The Concrete Doctor

Is God all loving? Love to me is a parent's feeling towards their child. Love is not an almighty being listening to the pleas of the mother of a sick child and ignoring them.

Andrewf20

Heres what Christiananswers.net suggests...

"There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.

Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God’s wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so. "

More here...

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

The Concrete Doctor

AndrewF20, put your bible down for a second and think for yourself. I am talking about love and you are talking about wrath. Wrath has no part of love. As I said, love is that feeling a mother or father has for their child. We are told God loves us, well if that's true then he would love us, not ignore our pain, our pleading for healing from illness or our children's suffering.
Universal experience tells me that people are good by nature. Why do you look at the bad side of life rather than embracing the goodness?

philologos

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

Is God all loving? Love to me is a parent's feeling towards their child. Love is not an almighty being listening to the pleas of the mother of a sick child and ignoring them.

Two things for you:

1 John 4:9-11 wrote:

In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

This video might cause some discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl5g73IIi2w

JimiTime

Good video. Really like his passion. Its not that faux 'preacher passion' you often see.

He hits the nail on the head as to how we need to approach the question. However, the question that still arises (but not in a fist shaking rebellious way), even after we realise the sovereignty of God, is why did he choose this path. Questions like, why didn't he just destroy Adam and Eve when they rebelled, and start again? The next question is why did it take so long for Christ to come? and why is it taking so long for him to return? Now just to explain, those last two questions are not 'Why is he taking so long?' but rather questions that seek to understand why God has done things as he has done.

Zombrex

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

AndrewF20, put your bible down for a second and think for yourself. I am talking about love and you are talking about wrath. Wrath has no part of love. As I said, love is that feeling a mother or father has for their child. We are told God loves us, well if that's true then he would love us, not ignore our pain, our pleading for healing from illness or our children's suffering.
Universal experience tells me that people are good by nature. Why do you look at the bad side of life rather than embracing the goodness?

Are you a Christian?

philologos

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

AndrewF20, put your bible down for a second and think for yourself. I am talking about love and you are talking about wrath. Wrath has no part of love. As I said, love is that feeling a mother or father has for their child. We are told God loves us, well if that's true then he would love us, not ignore our pain, our pleading for healing from illness or our children's suffering.
Universal experience tells me that people are good by nature. Why do you look at the bad side of life rather than embracing the goodness?

You're on the Christianity forum. I'm afraid you'll be hearing the Bible quite a bit more, because it's what we base our faith on.

I've thought about my faith in Christ for myself, but if you want to discuss this without Biblical consideration, the Christianity forum won't be a great place for you to do so.

People are "good" by nature? Do you really believe that? Open up today's newspaper, look through all the messed up things man has done. Ask yourself honestly - have I ever lied? Have I ever stolen? Have I ever committed adultery (Jesus includes lust in this category)? Have I ever murdered (Jesus includes anger without cause in this category)? Have I ever dishonoured my parents? Have I ever coveted what doesn't belong to me?

Honestly, if I look through that list, I am guilty of most if not all of the Ten Commandments at least. That's before we look at anything else.

Andrewf20

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

AndrewF20, put your bible down for a second and think for yourself. I am talking about love and you are talking about wrath. Wrath has no part of love. As I said, love is that feeling a mother or father has for their child. We are told God loves us, well if that's true then he would love us, not ignore our pain, our pleading for healing from illness or our children's suffering.
Universal experience tells me that people are good by nature. Why do you look at the bad side of life rather than embracing the goodness?

Ive seen this question come up a good few times in discussions and the Christian answer seems to often boil down to this. I have thought for myself, dont get me wrong and I can never get my head around it either. It leads to more questions than answers for me.

Why do some people suffer more than others in this life for example, independent of their religous standing & moral ability(if they are old enough to understand morality)?

Also, if we can be saved by belief in God as adults, will some lucky people not be burdened with any suffering in this life or the next? If so why the inconsistencies? Example: Person A is a believer in Christ and looses a child in an accident, suffering a life of heart breaking loss and mourning. Person B is a believer in Christ, and doesnt suffer a tragedy like person A but lives a happy life.

Andrewf20

philologos wrote: »

People are "good" by nature? Do you really believe that? Open up today's newspaper, look through all the messed up things man has done. Ask yourself honestly - have I ever lied? Have I ever stolen? Have I ever committed adultery (Jesus includes lust in this category)? Have I ever murdered (Jesus includes anger without cause in this category)? Have I ever dishonoured my parents? Have I ever coveted what doesn't belong to me?

Honestly, if I look through that list, I am guilty of most if not all of the Ten Commandments at least. That's before we look at anything else.

I think people are good and bad by nature. Yes man is capable of sin but he also capable of many good things, religious or not.

Dawkins opinions can be a bit wonky from time to time I find, but there was an interesting piece in his latest series - Sex, Death and the Meaning of Life. He interviews a guy who has done research to show that society has "gotten more civilised as religon declines" despite public perceptions that things are getting worse. Its at around 42:35 into this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJLovKISEfg&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsearch_query%3Ddawkin%2Bsex%2Bdeath%2Bmeaning%2Bof%2Blife%26oq%3Ddawkin%2Bsex%2Bdeath%2Bmeaning%2Bof%2Blife%26gs_l%3Dyoutube.3...106.7832.0.8029.34.31.0.2.2.0.198.1439.29j2.31.0...0.0...1ac.1.QZIK9XBEo8M&has_verified=1

Its said that bad news sells newspapers, so they can often give a slightly slanted view of things out there.

philologos

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I think people are good and bad by nature. Yes man is capable of sin but he also capable of many good things, religious or not.

They say bad news sells newspapers, so they can often give a slightly slanted view of things out there.

If I robbed someone 30 years ago, and I never did an evil thing again for the rest of my life (not that this is possible but go with it) am I still guilty of the robbery even if I never get put in jail for it?

Fanny Cradock

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

AndrewF20, put your bible down for a second and think for yourself. I am talking about love and you are talking about wrath. Wrath has no part of love. As I said, love is that feeling a mother or father has for their child. We are told God loves us, well if that's true then he would love us, not ignore our pain, our pleading for healing from illness or our children's suffering.
Universal experience tells me that people are good by nature. Why do you look at the bad side of life rather than embracing the goodness?

The whole story of Christianity and Judaism revolves around a God who is deeply involved with his creation. It's the story of God who is so in love with his creations that he suffered because of us with us and for us.

While I sympathise with your post, I don't recognise the God that you speak of. The claim made by Christianity is that God did something about the brokenness of the world, that he is still doing something about it and will one day he will complete this work. Now you are perfectly entitled to think that all of this is all pie in the sky, but that would be separate to the idea that God is inactive in the world and in the midst of suffering.

John Lennox gave an excellent talk on the subject of suffering days after the 2011 earthquake in NZ. http://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2011/03/full-audio-from-the-john-lennox-nz-tour/ - 3rd one down starting with Compass at St pauls.

Andrewf20

philologos wrote: »

If I robbed someone 30 years ago, and I never did an evil thing again for the rest of my life (not that this is possible but go with it) am I still guilty of the robbery even if I never get put in jail for it?

Yes. I dont think I see of problem with that.

The Concrete Doctor

The world is as "broken" today as it ever was. So if God did try to fix it, unfortunately it didn't really work, and he is all powerful, so I find it hard to believe that God could just "try" to do anything.

But there is real goodness out there too. I'm sure there always was. Nothing has changed really.

But that does not answer my question, "Is God all loving". It seems to me that when Christian people say that he is, it is really wishful thinking. I would love to think he is bit the evidence does not back it up.

philologos

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

The world is as "broken" today as it ever was. So if God did try to fix it, unfortunately it didn't really work, and he is all powerful, so I find it hard to believe that God could just "try" to do anything.

But there is real goodness out there too. I'm sure there always was. Nothing has changed really.

But that does not answer my question, "Is God all loving". It seems to me that when Christian people say that he is, it is really wishful thinking. I would love to think he is bit the evidence does not back it up.

The world is broken because of the fall according to Christianity.

The assumption in your post is that God has an obligation to alleviate suffering. Actually, this isn't really the case, and it doesn't need to be even if God exists. If God has a reason for allowing suffering in this creation, it becomes a bit different. In this three minute video William Lane Craig explains that in order for this to be a good argument against God's existence, one would have to show that it is a contradiction for a good God to exist in a world with suffering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwo4Zq-CyFs

Besides, I don't think there is any inherent reason why we deserve to have God do anything at our beck and call. By the very fact that God has offered us His mercy by His Son Jesus on the cross, and that our sins have been forgiven, He has spared His judgement from us if we believe and trust in Him. The video I previously posted touches on that.

Puck

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

Is God all loving? Love to me is a parent's feeling towards their child. Love is not an almighty being listening to the pleas of the mother of a sick child and ignoring them.

I don't accept your premise. There is not a single thing in the entirety of existence that God ignores, He is more intimately aware of everything than you or I could ever even begin to wrap our heads around. That includes the mother and the sick child.

Andrewf20

Puck wrote: »

I don't accept your premise. There is not a single thing in the entirety of existence that God ignores, He is more intimately aware of everything than you or I could ever even begin to wrap our heads around. That includes the mother and the sick child.

Are you implying that God answers all prayers?

totus tuus

God doesn't always grant us want we want, but He does grant us what we need, and always for the good of souls. God grants us something based on His fore-knowledge of what will happen us in the future as a result of that decision. Our ultimate good is His main concern, which is whether or not we make it to heaven. Yes, God always answers prayers, sometimes with a NO!!

Lantus

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I think people are good and bad by nature. Yes man is capable of sin but he also capable of many good things, religious or not.

He interviews a guy who has done research to show that society has "gotten more civilised as religon declines" despite public perceptions that things are getting worse.

The concept of nature is a myth. We are products of our environment socially, culturally and locally within family and friend networks. Humans have the ability to change the way they life and their concept of right and wrong.

Most people in Germany supported the nazi's; were they all evil? No, they just reflected each other durin a time of change. If you take a baby from Ireland and take him to the jungle to be raised by tribesman he will be a tribesman and know no different, conversly you can do the opposite and educate a baby from the jungle in a technological society. Both will be totally normal to them as that is their environment and all they have known.

What does that tell us? That the idea that people are born good or bad is simply rubbish. The environments we grow up in and are exposed to shape and mold us into the people we become. We live in an age where we can begin to socially engineer a better society where the inequalities and suffering experienced today can simply be 'designed out'.

Puck

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Are you implying that God answers all prayers?

If by "answer" you mean that God grants the request, then no.

What I am saying is that God is not only Creator, but Sustainer of all of us. He consciously gives us life every day and can number the hairs on our head he knows us so intimately. Whatever love or sympathy I may feel for anyone is dwarfed by the love of the God who has known them since before they were born, has been intimately aware of their existence every day of their life and has blessed them with every breath of air their lungs have ever taken.

Andrewf20

Puck wrote: »

What I am saying is that God is not only Creator, but Sustainer of all of us. He consciously gives us life every day

So why, for example does he create a child to be born with no kidneys who dies 30 minutes after child birth? Im not clear what purpose it serves?

Andrewf20

Lantus wrote: »

The concept of nature is a myth. We are products of our environment socially, culturally and locally within family and friend networks. Humans have the ability to change the way they life and their concept of right and wrong.

What does that tell us? That the idea that people are born good or bad is simply rubbish.

When I say nature, im thinking along the lines of what evolution plans for us. I think our evolutionary nature can lead us to do good and bad, this is what im getting at.

Andrewf20

philologos wrote: »

If I robbed someone 30 years ago, and I never did an evil thing again for the rest of my life (not that this is possible but go with it) am I still guilty of the robbery even if I never get put in jail for it?

I was just thinking Philologos, the idea of us inherently original sin - is this not the same as punishing your children for the sins you have committed, like the example you mention above?

God suggests I should be punished for Adams sin. Therefore, should my children be punished for my sins? And if not, why so?

homer911

Philologos: really appreciated the videos, thanks for posting

Puck

Andrewf20 wrote: »

So why, for example does he create a child to be born with no kidneys who dies 30 minutes after child birth? Im not clear what purpose it serves?

Even an atheist will agree that, given the scale and complexity of the universe, there are things that we little homo sapiens sapiens will come across that do not seem to make sense to us (at least for the present). Given that I believe in a God who is more complex and bigger than His creation, I should expect that there are things that happen for which I cannot see the immediate reason. To think that little me can understand the mind of the Creator of everything or that He is obliged to make everything He does sensible to my little brain is the height of arrogance.

When faced with apparently senseless human suffering, Jesus did not give a lecture on theodicy - his focus was not on explaining the why but on provoking his disciples to ask "what are we going to do about it?". There is suffering in the world that does not make any sense to me and I am not going to sit on my hands and wait for God to explain Himself before I follow his command to do something about it.

I can't even figure out my wife. It makes sense to me that the Creator of the universe should not be any easier to suss out.

philologos

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I was just thinking Philologos, the idea of us inherently original sin - is this not the same as punishing your children for the sins you have committed, like the example you mention above?

God suggests I should be punished for Adams sin. Therefore, should my children be punished for my sins? And if not, why so?

No He doesn't at least not in any Reformed understanding.

The Bible says clearly that we sinned before Him (not Adam), and as a result we are due His condemnation and wrath rather than His favour. People have an inclination towards sin as a result of the fall. Original sin as a term is not mentioned once in the Bible. Instead we have this in Romans 5:12 -

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Not just Adam all have sinned. If I look back over my life I can tell you that I've never done anything which was clearly wrong, but I'd be lying. I know for sure that I've done evil rather than what is good on multiple occasions. As a result, I've sinned before God, and I am guilty before Him. Thankfully for me and for all creation, Jesus came into the world to save us from our sin and to restore our relationship with God if we're willing to believe and trust in Him and accept Him as Lord over all.

JimiTime

Puck wrote: »

I can't even figure out my wife.

Reminds me of the joke.

A man finds a lamp with a genie in it on his way to play golf one day. The Genie says 'You can have one wish. whats it gonna be'.
He responds, 'Well I love driving my Ferrari, but I can't really put the foot down in it with the speed limits on the roads etc. My favourite Golf course is this beautiful course in Barcelona. So i want a road, just for me, that goes from my house here in Ireland, straight to the Golf course in Barcelona.'
The Genie responds, 'WHAT???!! Of all the mental, nigh on impossible wishes. Do you realise the immense, practically impossible difficulties of building a road in the deep sea, keeping it private etc. Sorry, but you have to want something else. Its just ridiculous'.
the man ponders a while, then says, 'Ok, could you just give me a manual on how to figure out women'
The Genie responds 'So would you like lights on that road'



Anyway, sorry for the interruption. Carry on....

homer911

philologos wrote: »

Not just Adam all have sinned. If I look back over my life I can tell you that I've never done anything which was clearly wrong, but I'd be lying. I know for sure that I've done evil rather than what is good on multiple occasions. As a result, I've sinned before God, and I am guilty before Him. Thankfully for me and for all creation, Jesus came into the world to save us from our sin and to restore our relationship with God if we're willing to believe and trust in Him and accept Him as Lord over all.

You have reminded me of a children's talk I once gave in church involving a large sheet of white paper and one very small black dot on it...

Puck

JimiTime wrote: »

Anyway, sorry for the interruption. Carry on....

No problem. I should point out though, lest anyone suspect any misogyny, that I am at least as confounding and mystifying to my wife as she is to me at times.

JimiTime

Puck wrote: »

No problem. I should point out though, lest anyone suspect any misogyny, that I am at least as confounding and mystifying to my wife as she is to me at times.

Shhhhh, don't give the game away! *looks over shoulder*

The Concrete Doctor

My question is about the belief that God loves us.

If he is all powerful, ie; he can do anything, then will he allow somebody he truly loves to suffer? Why does he answer some prayers and not others. If my child is sick and I pray "please God make him better", what are the chances that God will listen. What makes him want to help me and not the millions of others with similar pleas?

It is a totally unacceptable answer to say "well he doesn't have to, so he wont, if he doesn't want to"

Lantus

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

My question is about the belief that God loves us.

If he is all powerful, ie; he can do anything, then will he allow somebody he truly loves to suffer? Why does he answer some prayers and not others. If my child is sick and I pray "please God make him better", what are the chances that God will listen. What makes him want to help me and not the millions of others with similar pleas?

It is a totally unacceptable answer to say "well he doesn't have to, so he wont, if he doesn't want to"

Your post it seems to me shines a light on some of the unsettling contradictions within the bible and with most of the ancient religions.

Firstly we are told that god (in the bible) is all loving and all kind. That is contradictory to a god that kills things he doesn't like or gets 'angry' at or seeks to punish people for not living in accordance with the rules (do as I say not as I do).

As God knows everything by praying to god and asking him to 'heal the sick' are we not just bothering him? I mean its not like he's scratching head going "well I didn't know about all these sick people, I'm glad you told me."

We wouldn't walk around telling each other the obvious like its day time or we are currently walking on a pavement. It would be terribly annoying to say the least. Imagine the millions of voices bothering god about everything he allready knows about. Pointing out the obvious to him. And often just asking for things that benefit them personally like a better possesions or healing their child. I mean why not ask for every child in the world to be healed? Why ONLY their child?

It seems to me that a truly intelligent being would not interfere with another species in any way at all. (And he certainly wouldn't attempt to justify their murder or suffering at his hand) Other wise we would all just be puppets on a string and our lives would be meaningless. Potentially about to wiped out or changed or condemmed in an instant at a whim.

If there was a hand in the creation of the universe and all life it would be unsane to then attempt to tamper with it on a daily basis. What would a species like man learn if a god figure interfered constantly? It would seem to me to be detrimetal to the point of creating 'potentially intelligent' life and hoping that it could develop into something worthwhile.

I would like to think that a truly intelligent God loves us all enough to leave us alone and figure everything out for ourselves. That would mean my life had a tremendous amount of meaning and comfort that evey good and positive thing I did in my life I did because I was educated and informed enough to do it. Not because I was in fear of being thrown into a pit and burned and made to suffer.

The Concrete Doctor

Andrew, its is good to know that you believe in evolution. Some folks don't accept it as a fact of nature.

PDN

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

Andrew, its is good to know that you believe in evolution. Some folks don't accept it as a fact of nature.

Since neither you nor Andrew appear to be Christians, why on earth have that conversation in the Christianity Forum?

georgieporgy

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

My question is about the belief that God loves us.

If he is all powerful, ie; he can do anything, then will he allow somebody he truly loves to suffer? Why does he answer some prayers and not others. If my child is sick and I pray "please God make him better", what are the chances that God will listen. What makes him want to help me and not the millions of others with similar pleas?

It is a totally unacceptable answer to say "well he doesn't have to, so he wont, if he doesn't want to"

You haven't explained what you think is wrong with an innocent child suffering. I just don't get it. What exactly are you concerned about?
Is it that you see no value in suffering? Perhaps you think there is something wrong with dying?

The Concrete Doctor

Of course I'm a Christian. Just because I believe in evolution, or because I can think for myself, does not stop me from being Christian!

The Concrete Doctor

Are you serious? You don't see anything wrong with a child suffering? Wow, how sad are you. You are certainly not Christian with those ideas!

PDN

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

Of course I'm a Christian. Just because I believe in evolution, or because I can think for myself, does not stop me from being Christian!

Oh for goodness' sake - what on earth has evolution got to do with it? Take bee out of bonnet - then engage in debate.

philologos

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

My question is about the belief that God loves us.

If he is all powerful, ie; he can do anything, then will he allow somebody he truly loves to suffer? Why does he answer some prayers and not others. If my child is sick and I pray "please God make him better", what are the chances that God will listen. What makes him want to help me and not the millions of others with similar pleas?

It is a totally unacceptable answer to say "well he doesn't have to, so he wont, if he doesn't want to"

Your question leaves out the possibility that perhaps suffering has a purpose in this creation. That's what's posed in my second video.

In my first video - the speaker argues that there is a wrong perspective on our part. Namely that God should do as we want, rather than what He wills. This undermines God's sovereignty and His intention in Creation, and essentially it is arguing that we know better than God.

There are plenty of reasons why God mightn't intervene, a few months ago I covered a few of them.

The Bible also makes clear that God can work evil for good purposes or that God can come out of evil:

Genesis 50:15-21 wrote:

When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil that we did to him.” So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father gave this command before he died: ‘Say to Joseph, “Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.”’ And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” Joseph wept when they spoke to him. His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.” But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

Job in the Bible also gives a very interesting discussion on the very subject of why bad things happen to good people.

Andrewf20

Puck wrote: »

Even an atheist will agree that, given the scale and complexity of the universe, there are things that we little homo sapiens sapiens will come across that do not seem to make sense to us (at least for the present). Given that I believe in a God who is more complex and bigger than His creation, I should expect that there are things that happen for which I cannot see the immediate reason. To think that little me can understand the mind of the Creator of everything or that He is obliged to make everything He does sensible to my little brain is the height of arrogance.

There is suffering in the world that does not make any sense to me and I am not going to sit on my hands and wait for God to explain Himself before I follow his command to do something about it.

I guess its a case of God working in mysterious ways. But if God is working on a level of logic that can seem counter intuitive to our sense of what should be right, I find I cant help but cast doubts over his agenda when he helps create a child into a life of terminal pain.

Great leaders should strive to have clear agendas and communication for all people they lead but im not sure if thats what we have here.

Zombrex

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

Of course I'm a Christian. Just because I believe in evolution, or because I can think for myself, does not stop me from being Christian!

Er correct, but believing that God isn't loving and saying things like put the Bible away would certainly query how you think you are a Christian. Jesus told you that God was loving, what Christian doesn't believe Jesus?

Are you one of these "Christians" who doesn't believe the Christian notion of God exists and thinks Jesus was just a misunderstood secular teacher with some progressive ideas?

The Concrete Doctor

You are correct PDN. It is completely off the topic and should not have been introduced in this debate.

The Concrete Doctor

I just cant accept the notion of an all loving God when he is selective about who he helps in their time of trouble. What kind of love is that?

homer911

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

I just cant accept the notion of an all loving God when he is selective about who he helps in their time of trouble. What kind of love is that?

Hi Concrete Doctor. I'm a little confused by your posts and where you are coming from - you say you are a Christian, but your question about a loving God is one I would normally expect from a non-Christian, and usually from someone who knows little of the Christian faith and is looking for reasons not to accept it (I know a number of people like this asking the same kind of questions and really just hiding behind them). You need to start with an understanding of the basics of who God is, what he has done and his relationship with us, and then this kind of question answers itself. Have you considered an Alpha or Christianity Explored course - even self professing Christians benefit from going back to the basics.

Like the preacher in the video posted by Philologos, you are (in my opinion) asking the wrong question..

The Concrete Doctor

Hi Homer911. Telling somebody you love them means nothing if your actions don't demonstrate it.
If my own father told me he loved me, but did nothing to help me when I was sick, even though I knew he could help me, would I question his love? Absolutely. My questioning that love would be totally justified. It does not make me cease to be his son. I just would not believe he really loved me. Do you not agree?

Zombrex

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

I just cant accept the notion of an all loving God when he is selective about who he helps in their time of trouble. What kind of love is that?

What kind of Christian doesn't accept the Christian version of God?

philologos

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

Hi Homer911. Telling somebody you love them means nothing if your actions don't demonstrate it.
If my own father told me he loved me, but did nothing to help me when I was sick, even though I knew he could help me, would I question his love? Absolutely. My questioning that love would be totally justified. It does not make me cease to be his son. I just would not believe he really loved me. Do you not agree?

Could you respond to some of the posts already given? That would be helpful to bring the discussion forward.

homer911

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

Hi Homer911. Telling somebody you love them means nothing if your actions don't demonstrate it.
If my own father told me he loved me, but did nothing to help me when I was sick, even though I knew he could help me, would I question his love? Absolutely. My questioning that love would be totally justified. It does not make me cease to be his son. I just would not believe he really loved me. Do you not agree?

Would you still have an issue if i substituted some other word in place of 'sick'? There are lots of things a father might withold from a child in order to teach them something. As a child we dont understand these things, but over time, as we learn and grow, we understand more.

The Concrete Doctor

God gave us the ability to think for ourselves. It is a gift I enjoy, even if it does not concur with some traditional Christian beliefs. It doesn't mean I am not Christian, does it.

philologos

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

God gave us the ability to think for ourselves. It is a gift I enjoy, even if it does not concur with some traditional Christian beliefs. It doesn't mean I am not Christian, does it.

Nobody is asking you not to think for yourself.

What I'm asking for is to help us help you with your question. Please respond to some of the posts you've already been given and let us know what your objections are.

The Concrete Doctor

why would you want to substitute another word for sick, unless that word meant "sick" or unwell. Either way, if I am not well, sore, feeling pain due to an accident or some other incident, I would absolutely expect my father to help to make the pain to go away, if he could, because he loves me. If he didn't, I would not be interested in his reason for wanting my pain to continue and he would be demonstrating that he did not really love me as he claimed to. If you love somebody, you cannot tolerate them feeling pain.
If he wanted to teach me something and wanted me to suffer real pain to in order learn, I would say he was not a good father, wouldn't you? Isn't that the type of thing that happened in the sixties with corporal punishment and is now forbidden and believed to be absolutely wrong?

lmaopml

The Concrete Doctor wrote: »

why would you want to substitute another word for sick, unless that word meant "sick" or unwell. Either way, if I am not well, sore, feeling pain due to an accident or some other incident, I would absolutely expect my father to help to make the pain to go away, if he could, because he loves me. If he didn't, I would not be interested in his reason for wanting my pain to continue and he would be demonstrating that he did not really love me as he claimed to. If you love somebody, you cannot tolerate them feeling pain.

Yes, I know a few people who believe that life on earth means that their Daddy should protect them from Earth, and that the world owes them for merely walking on it - they're blind, they're not being given any good teaching.. so innocent in blindness -


They don't see that people suffer, or why?

They're not being taught it! Until it strikes them down, and then they don't konw what to do except blame..


That 'suffering' in and of itself is a terrible thing ( which many times it is...) but nobody escapes it - Absolutely nobody!

It's what we 'do' with it that counts...because there are others 'suffering' too.....be useful - Don't be taught it 'shouldn't' happen to me, because I'm super special...Be useful and loving and giving towards others that hearts are torn apart with suffering..

What Christ teaches is that we unite together and that suffering can be 'redemptive'...it's not always obvious, many people rebel, because any kind of suffering is 'bad'!...of course it is - let's avoid it, and not think about how our avoidance imposes it on others.


Others know that their only comfort, in their 'suffering' is when they knew they were stripped bare, so very bare and they see even more clearly the crucified Christ on the Cross...and find that a priceless gem!

A father doesn't give a child every single thing they desire, sometimes the very best of Fathers calls the best of children home, sometimes he says 'no'.

My children are only on loan to me, much like any parent - entrusted to me now, but.....They're not mine - I can only hope to give them a good foundation and send them out..and hope that what I said to them helps them to see better.