Valid Permit Held and Still Clamped

Kerby

I was clamped today in the car park of Athlone Institute of Technology. The company operating the service is APCOA. I registered for my student parking permit costing €20 before I started college. I received a letter back containing my parking disc (similar to tax disc) which you display in your car window when you are at the college. The disc was clearly displayed on the dashboard of my car visable for the APCOA clamper to see and he still proceeded to clamp the car. On contacting the company by phone to remove the clamp. I received a recorded message, you can't even speak to a customer service represenative to explain your situation. Selected the pay with cash option hoping that when the clamper would arrive to remove the clamp I could explain the situation and hopefully he would realise his error. However he arrived at my car informed me it would be €80 to remove the clamp. I showed him my permit explained it's a valid permit and was displayed where he could clearly see it. He said its a different car I explained that my car was in getting a service so I had a different car today. As per the Athlone Institute of Technology web site "
Legitimate Use of a Permit
A permit is required on campus between 09:00 – 17:00 daily, Monday – Friday The permit should be displayed where all permit details are clearly visible.
For secondary vehicles, the permit must be transferred from the primary vehicle to the secondary before parking on campus
I had transfered the permit as stated above to the secondary vehicle and it was displayed clearly for the clamper to see. However I was still clamped. I tried to reason with the clamper but he still insisted on the fine being paid. Clamper said its €80 to remove the clamp or else I'm going. He told me that it sound like I would have grounds to appeal the payment. I said I don't understand how come you clamped me so. He still insisted that I pay or else he would not take off the clamp. I have two children that I was already 30 minutes late picking up from creche so had no option but to pay the money so that I could drive my car away to collect them. I showed him 10 other cars that were parked on the foot path infront of my car (I was parked in a marked parking space not obstructing anyone or anything) and not one of those cars were clamped? Is it legal that he should be allowed to clamp my car even if I have a valid parking permit displayed? Just to clarify the permit displays only the date issued, the expiry date and a permit number. The permit does not display any details about the car registration or owner details. When I received my parking permit from APCOA they did not issue any information booklet or details in relation to the use of permit it was simpily a letter advising me to place the permit in my car and thanking me for my payment. How can a company be allowed to clamp a persons car when they don't give people a detailed breakdown of company policy on clamping.

AngeGal

Get on to Admin in the college, I would imagine they should be able to get it back. The Comâny will back down rather than risk annoying them. Be persistent in the college though, make sure you get to see someone fairly senior about it aswell.

Procrastastudy

A booklet for a parking permit... Really?

Appeal it - mistakes happen.

NoQuarter

I wonder if "transferred" means taking it from one window to the other or actually calling the office and asking them to "transfer" the details.

seb65

NoQuarter wrote: »

I wonder if "transferred" means taking it from one window to the other or actually calling the office and asking them to "transfer" the details.

Contra proferentem?

It doesn't seem like the OP gave any info to the registry office or on the permit itself though - so how would the clamper know that the permit wasn't electronically transferred?

Seriously, this sort of thing is appalling. Surely there's some sort of tort that applies here?

Tom Young

Detinue; Trespass to chattels - Tort.
Unfair Contract Terms; Unilateral Contracts; Arbitration Clause(s); Possibly also some element of CP - Contract.

Appeal it OP.

NoQuarter

seb65 wrote: »

Contra proferentem?

It doesn't seem like the OP gave any info to the registry office or on the permit itself though - so how would the clamper know that the permit wasn't electronically transferred?

Seriously, this sort of thing is appalling. Surely there's some sort of tort that applies here?

Contra proferentem yes but I can hardly see this ending up before the courts on a contract point! So the clamping company could still play hardball.

I'd imagine the OP had to give the reg number and perhaps the clamping company has a list it checks against. That's my reading of it.

Tom Young

Why not? Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Directive, etc.

Tom Young

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=EN&numdoc=31993L0013&model=guichett

NoQuarter

I dont for a second doubt that the OP has a case. I just get the feeling it wouldnt end up in court. Now, had the OP cut off the clamp (like I probably would have)...

zookey

hi guys.. i had a similiar experience where i was clamped at connolly hospital even though i had a valid parking ticket displayed ( to my knowledge) but unknownst to me it had blown off my dashboard onto the car floor, when i returned and seen the clamp i was puzzled coz i knew my ticket was still valid, on looking in the window i could clearly see the ticket on the car floor, obviously had blown down when i shut car door...i called the number, clamper came back, would not take clamp off repeatedly saying my ticket was not displayed... it wasnt my fault it had blown off the dashboard, i didnt know, but he wouldnt even listen or look at my ticket when i showed him it, he said he looked into my car and didnt see it on floor, so how come i could clearly see it when i looked in?... he still would not take clamp off and grunted that he had to be somewhere else and got into his van and drove off leaving me in tears worrying how i was going to get all the way back to navan to collect my daughter off a bus!.. i had no choice but to give in and pay the €80 over the phone and after more than an hour waiting he eventually came back and removed the clamp with a sneer on his face ggrrr!!...if u ask me they are nothing but a bunch of cowboys being let away with this easy money making racket!!...

Victor

The rules: http://www.ait.ie/aboutaitandathlone/parking/

The seems to be a, err, provincial casualness to parts of it.

When they say "For secondary vehicles, the permit must be transferred from the primary vehicle to the secondary before parking on campus", I suspect they mean that the second vehicle must be registered, not that the permit needs to be physically moved from one vehicle to another.

backtobass

Kerby wrote: »

I was clamped today in the car park of Athlone Institute of Technology. The company operating the service is APCOA. I registered for my student parking permit costing €20 before I started college. I received a letter back containing my parking disc (similar to tax disc) which you display in your car window when you are at the college. The disc was clearly displayed on the dashboard of my car visable for the APCOA clamper to see and he still proceeded to clamp the car. On contacting the company by phone to remove the clamp. I received a recorded message, you can't even speak to a customer service represenative to explain your situation. Selected the pay with cash option hoping that when the clamper would arrive to remove the clamp I could explain the situation and hopefully he would realise his error. However he arrived at my car informed me it would be €80 to remove the clamp. I showed him my permit explained it's a valid permit and was displayed where he could clearly see it. He said its a different car I explained that my car was in getting a service so I had a different car today. As per the Athlone Institute of Technology web site "
Legitimate Use of a Permit
A permit is required on campus between 09:00 – 17:00 daily, Monday – Friday The permit should be displayed where all permit details are clearly visible.
For secondary vehicles, the permit must be transferred from the primary vehicle to the secondary before parking on campus
I had transfered the permit as stated above to the secondary vehicle and it was displayed clearly for the clamper to see. However I was still clamped. I tried to reason with the clamper but he still insisted on the fine being paid. Clamper said its €80 to remove the clamp or else I'm going. He told me that it sound like I would have grounds to appeal the payment. I said I don't understand how come you clamped me so. He still insisted that I pay or else he would not take off the clamp. I have two children that I was already 30 minutes late picking up from creche so had no option but to pay the money so that I could drive my car away to collect them. I showed him 10 other cars that were parked on the foot path infront of my car (I was parked in a marked parking space not obstructing anyone or anything) and not one of those cars were clamped? Is it legal that he should be allowed to clamp my car even if I have a valid parking permit displayed? Just to clarify the permit displays only the date issued, the expiry date and a permit number. The permit does not display any details about the car registration or owner details. When I received my parking permit from APCOA they did not issue any information booklet or details in relation to the use of permit it was simpily a letter advising me to place the permit in my car and thanking me for my payment. How can a company be allowed to clamp a persons car when they don't give people a detailed breakdown of company policy on clamping.

A few months back, a student in W.I.T had a similar thing happen, clamped on the grounds.He went to court on the basis that the college did not have it in their paperwork/their own written handbook etc as opposed to putting it up on their website and saying, by the way, you'll be clamped if you illegally park. He won his case. You can always cut the clamp off, as they will not pursue you, and the college would not want the publicity.

halpin17

Snip

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

The rules: http://www.ait.ie/aboutaitandathlone/parking/

The seems to be a, err, provincial casualness to parts of it.

When they say "For secondary vehicles, the permit must be transferred from the primary vehicle to the secondary before parking on campus", I suspect they mean that the second vehicle must be registered, not that the permit needs to be physically moved from one vehicle to another.

A few moments' thought shows that that is certainly what they mean. There would be no reason to put the car registration number on the permit if the permit could be freely used with any car. Nor is it likely that the college would want to issue permits which could be freely used with any car, since the potential for abuse is obvious.

Having said that, although this is the common sense interpretation, the statement on the website is ambiguous. Plus, nothing on the webpage tells you how to go about getting your permit transferred, if that is what you need to do. It's at least arguable that the failure to mention any transfer procedure justifies an interpretation whereby you can simply transfer the permit to your "secondary car" yourself.

seb65

Peregrinus wrote: »

A few moments' thought shows that that is certainly what they mean. There would be no reason to put the car registration number on the permit if the permit could be freely used with any car. Nor is it likely that the college would want to issue permits which could be freely used with any car, since the potential for abuse is obvious.

Having said that, although this is the common sense interpretation, the statement on the website is ambiguous. Plus, nothing on the webpage tells you how to go about getting your permit transferred, if that is what you need to do. It's at least arguable that the failure to mention any transfer procedure justifies an interpretation whereby you can simply transfer the permit to your "secondary car" yourself.

First, a few moments of reading shows that the car registration number is not put on the permit, for example, where the OP says "[t]he permit does not display any details about the car registration or owner details".

Second, I disagree that the common sense interpretation is that the second vehicle must be registered for the permit to be transferred. Transferred without qualification does not distinguish between electronic and physical transfer and there is no mention of having to register the secondary vehicle. As there are no vehicle details on the displayed permit, it makes sense that the permit can be simply physically transferred to another vehicle.

Third, it is absolutely not obvious that there is a potential for abuse. X number of permits are issued. What difference does it make if a person drives his car y or car z to park at the college? I doubt very much that students are out on the street waving their parking permits in the air, asking strangers if they want a lend of it.

seb65

Also, I don't know if I was the OP if I'd be willing to only accept my money back through contacting the admin of the college and getting them to put pressure on the clamping company. I'd want more. I had to waste my time, my children were distressed because I was late and someone had illegally interfered with my property. He then continued to illegally interfere with my property once he knew he was illegally interfering with my property.

ANXIOUS

Why do People still play these games with campers. Until I see any law allowing then to legal interfere with A Mechanically propelled vechicle I will continue to cut the clamps off. It's extortion.

Tom Young

Which of course is Criminal Damage in certain scenarios.

Clamping thread will be closed OP. simply appeal the ban. If they find against you, get a solicitor to write to them with the intention of issuing legal proceedings.

The cost benefit analysis may not stack up though.

Peregrinus

seb65 wrote: »

First, a few moments of reading shows that the car registration number is not put on the permit, for example, where the OP says "[t]he permit does not display any details about the car registration or owner details".

And yet the clamper knew that this permit was not registered to this car, which is why he put the clamp on in the first place. How did he know that?

If you follow the links in the college website to find out how to get your permit, you'll find out the first item of information you have to supply is the registration number of the vehicle you want to park. I'm slightly surprised that the permit doesn't then state the registration number, but obviously it contains some data from which the clamping operator can see whether this permit is being displayed on the car for which it was issued, or another car.

seb65 wrote: »

Second, I disagree that the common sense interpretation is that the second vehicle must be registered for the permit to be transferred. Transferred without qualification does not distinguish between electronic and physical transfer and there is no mention of having to register the secondary vehicle. As there are no vehicle details on the displayed permit, it makes sense that the permit can be simply physically transferred to another vehicle.

Third, it is absolutely not obvious that there is a potential for abuse. X number of permits are issued. What difference does it make if a person drives his car y or car z to park at the college? I doubt very much that students are out on the street waving their parking permits in the air, asking strangers if they want a lend of it.

I agree with you that, if it's not obvious from looking at the permit that it is associated with a specific car, it's also not obvious that you cannot transfer it to another car simply by moving it yourself.

I disagree that it is not obvious that there is potential for abuse. Parking at the college is obviously in short supply; if it were not, there would be no need for a permit system. If it's in short supply, then permits (if freely transerrable) are valuable assets. The college wouldn't want students to, for example, lend their permits to friends or family on days that they are not using them themselves.

But, between the fact that it's not obvious from looking at the permit that it relates to a particular car, and the fact that the website indicates in pretty sloppy language that the permit can be transferred to another car without spelling out that this needs to be done by agreement with the permit issuer, I think this clamping was not justified, and a court would find that it was not justified. But the OP is not likely to go to court for
€80, and the permit issuer relies on this to get them over what would otherwise the the consequences of their own carelessness.

athlonelad

I had the misfortune of being clamped in AIT myself about a year ago by APOCA. I was in a proper space and had permit and everything.
I kicked up a fuss with clamper who was beside my car and basically told him to remove it. He refused.
Someone else had also been clamped in the space beside me and they had gone to get someone from the college to come out. After a few brief words between the clampers and the college staff member the clamper backed down. Staff member went back inside college.
I also then asked the clamper to remove the stickers he had paced on my window. He laughed and got into his van.
I was angry so I carefully peeled off the stickers and placed them on the clampers windscreen.

OP I wouldn't let them away with this. Make a big deal of it with the admin staff in the college and fight them on this.

Kerby

Just found this post on another boards forum based on what backtobass said about WIT.

follow link: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055041472

It says

Most car Clamping completly illegal
Its true, I recently fought a case over removing one myself, Given the fact this does not apply to contractors working for the council they ARE protected by the various by-laws and what, anyway my story as follows

I removed a clamp from my car a year ago whilst parked in the front car park of WIT in Waterford and was charged with THEFT and being in possession of stolen property(!!) Anyways I fought it and was brought to court 5 days ago and judge ruled what sentry security was illegal and Im now perfectly entitled to sue for damages(only the council can hire clampers so any car spaces owned privately aren't legally covered to clamp).

I believe this to be the first case of this nature (Im not 100%) although it was said in court that i returned the clamp damaged it was a complete lie-
here is the following technique to remove a illegally clamped car without damaging the clamp-

1. deflate appropiate tyre fully
2. Jack up car
3. with tire deflated it should giv u enough space to push clamp enough to be able to access one of the wheel's nuts
4. Remove nut and rotate wheel for each nut
5. Take off clamp+wheel and put on spare
6. Wheel should be able to be separated with bit of persuasion
Last edited by mazdafarl; 15-01-2007 at 17:46.

NUTLEY BOY

My gripe with clampers is their arrogant facism. Specifically, they operate on the premise that they are always right even when they are in the wrong. Their standard M O is that you pay every time and then appeal to them. So much for nemo judex in causa sua. Some day these gits will get their just desserts.
BTW I accept that clampers do have a proper function but I hate them when they play dirty.

Grolschevik

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

My gripe with clampers is their arrogant facism.

I, too, dislike it when they discriminate on the grounds of appearance.

Neewbie_noob

NoQuarter wrote: »

I dont for a second doubt that the OP has a case. I just get the feeling it wouldnt end up in court. Now, had the OP cut off the clamp (like I probably would have)...

Hear, hear, I was camped before despite having a valid payment slip on the windscreen, they extorted 120 quid from me for the release, 8 quid on the phone (I was flustered at being clamped and the kúnts hung up on me) so had to call back and 5 quid "admin" fee. I should have just made shyté of the clamp

Even if I did appeal and got the 120 quid back, I would not get the 8 quid from the phonecalls back and the 5 quid admin fee :mad:

Bottom line is, clampers are the bottom rung of society

Del2005

Kerby wrote: »

here is the following technique to remove a illegally clamped car without damaging the clamp-

1. deflate appropiate tyre fully
2. Jack up car
3. with tire deflated it should giv u enough space to push clamp enough to be able to access one of the wheel's nuts
4. Remove nut and rotate wheel for each nut
5. Take off clamp+wheel and put on spare
6. Wheel should be able to be separated with bit of persuasion
Last edited by mazdafarl; 15-01-2007 at 17:46.

You had cowboy clampers:D Most know to put the chain through the suspension linkage so that method doesn't work.

Del2005

Victor wrote: »

The rules: http://www.ait.ie/aboutaitandathlone/parking/

The seems to be a, err, provincial casualness to parts of it.

When they say "For secondary vehicles, the permit must be transferred from the primary vehicle to the secondary before parking on campus", I suspect they mean that the second vehicle must be registered, not that the permit needs to be physically moved from one vehicle to another.

If you click through the college and student option there's an place to add a 2nd vehicle, and it's free. Not that hard or difficult to register a 2nd vehicle.

Kerby

Del2005 wrote: »

If you click through the college and student option there's an place to add a 2nd vehicle, and it's free. Not that hard or difficult to register a 2nd vehicle.

Yes but if you are only using a second vehcile temporarily, it doesn't say on the web site how to change the disc over to the second vehicle temporarily. My point is there instructions are not clear and different people interpet things differently so make your instructions clear and don't just assume that people will know what they are taking about as the saying goes to "assume makes an ass out of me and an ass out of u" I quote from there web site 'For secondary vehicles, the permit must be transferred from the primary vehicle to the secondary before parking on campus'.

mitosis

You have a permit to park a specific car. You cannot just pass the permit around to whomever needs parking. You obviously misunderstood the meaning of "transfer", so I have sympathy for your plight, but APCOA are correct as you had no permit for the car you parked.

Kerby

mitosis wrote: »

You have a permit to park a specific car. You cannot just pass the permit around to whomever needs parking. You obviously misunderstood the meaning of "transfer", so I have sympathy for your plight, but APCOA are correct as you had no permit for the car you parked.

Interesting point.... But, I didn't simply pass the permit around to however I wished. I placed it from one car window into another that was driven by me the permit owner. So you think that because you purchase a permit you should not be allowed to transfer it onto any other car????? How does that make sense. It is bound to happen at some stage that your car is unavailable for what every reason e.g a service. So what is one to do not bother attending college that day because they don't have their specific car to drive? Once again it come back to the fact that they should state that clearly so that incidents like this don't occur.

It does not state on the permit or on the letter that I received in the post from APCOA when I received my permit, that permits are non transferable.

mitosis

You are allowed transfer it. OP misunderstood what that means. The permit is tied to 123 C 123 eg, and it was put in 321 WW 321. You needed to call the provider and transfer it to the second reg.

athlonelad

mitosis wrote: »

You are allowed transfer it. OP misunderstood what that means. The permit is tied to 123 C 123 eg, and it was put in 321 WW 321. You needed to call the provider and transfer it to the second reg.

I'd fight it op. Ring them and threaten small claims court. They won't be long about refunding you. They are clearly in the wrong here. Don't pay to have your case heard. If it wad me I would of cut it off.

Kerby

mitosis wrote: »

You are allowed transfer it. OP misunderstood what that means. The permit is tied to 123 C 123 eg, and it was put in 321 WW 321. You needed to call the provider and transfer it to the second reg.

Interesting!!! How is one to know this if it is not stated on the web site and if there is no number given to contact to place a second reg onto your permit. I have never used a permit system before in my life so to expect someone with no experience of using such a system before to simply know what to do is stupid. If you have clear terms and conditions and instructions outlined there can be no ambiguity. I quote once again from the AIT web site "For secondary vehicles, the permit must be transferred from the primary vehicle to the secondary before parking on campus"

If it had stated your permit is non transferable all vechiles must be registered before entering campus. To register a secondary vehcile please contact 000 123456 and transfer you disc from the primary vehicle to the secondary vehicle. Now if I read that post would I be in this position???

BonneenIreland

Kerby, Did you every get your money back? Same thing happened to me today in AIT and he said I could appeal it and may get my money back

Our man in Havana

You can appeal all you want, they won't return your money.

Kerby

BonneenIreland wrote: »

Kerby, Did you every get your money back? Same thing happened to me today in AIT and he said I could appeal it and may get my money back

Hello BonneenIreland, I appealed the clamping one month ago and still have not received my money back. I have not received any correspondence back from them in relation to my claim. To tell you my postion at the moment, I will be calling into the office Monday morning to speak with the person incharge of clamping in the college to see what the situation is and to establish why it is taking them so long to process my claim. If I do not get a satisfactory response I will be preparing my submission to the small claims court. Where in the college did you get clamped? Is your story similiar to mine?

Kerby

After exhausting all other avenues I lodged a claim with the small claims court two weeks ago, received cheque today with full refund of illegal clamping fee. Persistance pays off when you know you are in the right. Small claims court is the only way to get them to take notice that they can't clamp people illegally.

kirving

Should be looking for interest, and compensation since you've been out of pocket for so long.

Yawns

would have been quicker and easier to cut it. They never would have taken you to court.

Grolschevik

Kerby wrote: »

After exhausting all other avenues I lodged a claim with the small claims court two weeks ago, received cheque today with full refund of illegal clamping fee. Persistance pays off when you know you are in the right. Small claims court is the only way to get them to take notice that they can't clamp people illegally.

A question: did they refund you because the Small Claims Court ordered it, or did they refund it just because you lodged a claim?

Kerby

Grolschevik wrote: »

A question: did they refund you because the Small Claims Court ordered it, or did they refund it just because you lodged a claim?

They refunded it because I lodged the claim. Sadly I never got the oportunity to take it into court.