Make money by not paying your fines

PizzamanIRL

Basically, a friend of my brother didn't pay a €2,500 fine and after all the threatening letters from solicitors he ended up in court, did a few hours in the Midlands and walked out with €1.40 from the daily prisoner wage thing.

The logic of our jusitice system amazes me.

So the moral of the story ladies and gents, don't pay your fines and save and make money. :cool:

donvito99

That was the worst story I have ever read

PizzamanIRL

donvito99 wrote: »

That was the worst story I have ever read

I'm sorry I didn't throw in some imaginary unicorns and blue elephants to excite you.

HeyThereDeliah

Are you guaranteed to walk out after a few hours or do some people serve all the sentence?

juan.kerr

Was that €1.40 before or after tax?

lisaj

What about the criminal record and credit rating?

WoollyRedHat

lisaj wrote: »

What about the criminal record and credit rating?

They're just make believy things, like talking donkeys and witches.

im invisible

donvito99 wrote: »

That was the worst story I have ever read

still a better love story than twilight

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

I'm sorry I didn't throw in some imaginary unicorns and blue elephants to excite you.

needs more dragons

sdanseo

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

Basically, a friend of my brother didn't pay a €2,500 fine and after all the threatening letters from solicitors he ended up in court, did a few hours in the Midlands and walked out with €1.40 from the daily prisoner wage thing, and a criminal record

Fixed your post there.

If you or he are over the moon, well for you. I wouldn't be.

MagicSean

http://www.thejournal.ie/legal-fines-pay-in-instalments-645535-Oct2012/

"The new rules, announced by justice minister Alan Shatter this afternoon, will give people 12 months to pay fines in instalments, with an added premium of 10 per cent – the first time that such an option has been offered.

However, the rules will also allow for the possibility that anyone who does not pay a fine can be brought back to court, which will be able to order that the fine be deducted from the person’s earnings."

You copped on a little late.

Pat Mustard

sdeire wrote: »

Fixed your post there.

From what the OP writes, it sounds like this guy didn't pay a civil judgment, refused to comply with a court order, and was imprisoned for that. If so, there wouldn't be any criminal record.

I assume that the OP's reference to a €2,500 fine should be a reference to a civil judgment instead.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, anybody.

MagicSean

The Mustard wrote: »

From what the OP writes, it sounds like this guy didn't pay a civil judgment, refused to comply with a court order, and was imprisoned for that. If so, there wouldn't be any criminal record.

I assume that the OP's reference to a €2,500 fine should be a reference to a civil judgment instead.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, anybody.

If that's the case then he still owes it.

Pat Mustard

MagicSean wrote: »

If that's the case then he still owes it.

Sdeire asserted that the guy also has a criminal record, which appears not to be the case.

Also, the article to which you linked appears to refer to enforcement of criminal fines. Will it also apply to civil judgments? (Not a rhetorical question, I genuinely do not know).

anniehoo

Prisoners get a wage?!! Is this for real? :mad:

shed head

anniehoo wrote: »

Prisoners get a wage?!! Is this for real? :mad:

yes, it doesn't make sense for them leaving the slammer and mugging the nearest target!

PizzamanIRL

anniehoo wrote: »

Prisoners get a wage?!! Is this for real? :mad:

Yes, that's where some of the tax from your hard earned wages go. Straight to criminals that do feck all.

Pat Mustard

Prisoner gratuity scheme in the Irish Times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0427/breaking52.html

PizzamanIRL

shed head wrote: »

yes, it doesn't make sense for them leaving the slammer and mugging the nearest target!

They still leave practically broke because they spend it on shopping each week.

Pat Mustard

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

They still leave practically broke because they spend it on shopping each week.

Ya, they spend it in the prison shop. There's not much left after the price of a pack of fags.

Lollipops23

So they get paid while they do their time??
I don't care that it's only pennies, that makes me sick. The whole point is that they're removed from society etc,not saving up for their week's shopping when they leave or whatever. It's not my problem that they've may have to start from scratch.

juan.kerr

In a few years scum bags who got suspended sentences will sue the state because they were denied the generous prison wages.

I wonder is it pensionable income...

uberalles

Did he not have someone to collect his scratcher for him while he was inside ?

Pat Mustard

juan.kerr wrote: »

I wonder is it pensionable income...

And sure, if it's pensionable, maybe they can retire somewhere sunny and enjoy the Irish pension benefits without the attendant weather.

weldoninhio

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

Basically, a friend of my brother didn't pay a €2,500 fine and after all the threatening letters from solicitors he ended up in court, did a few hours in the Midlands and walked out with €1.40 from the daily prisoner wage thing.

The logic of our jusitice system amazes me.

So the moral of the story ladies and gents, don't pay your fines and save and make money. :cool:

So your brothers friend doesn't have a job and has refused to pay a fine?? Sounds like a gent.

PizzamanIRL

weldoninhio wrote: »

So your brothers friend doesn't have a job and has refused to pay a fine?? Sounds like a gent.

Since when was this thread about praising the person in question?

juan.kerr

The Mustard wrote: »

And sure, if it's pensionable, maybe they can retire somewhere sunny and enjoy the Irish pension benefits without the attendant weather.

You're not wrong, my friend.

M cebee

i know of a guy who made a nice profit in a similar way
right chancer but-he went down for non-payment .while in the cell his bed collapsed.he injured his back and got about 15k compo

Milk & Honey

The Mustard wrote: »

From what the OP writes, it sounds like this guy didn't pay a civil judgment, refused to comply with a court order, and was imprisoned for that. If so, there wouldn't be any criminal record.

I assume that the OP's reference to a €2,500 fine should be a reference to a civil judgment instead.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, anybody.

There is no imprisonment for non payment of a civil judgement. The only way there might be imprisonment is if there was a civil judgement and there was an instalment proces begun against him and he didn't co-operate with it and pay an instalment. In that case there would be imprisonment for contempt and he would not be let out after a few hours. It was much more likely to have been a 2.5k criminal fine. There is no effect on the criminal record. The imposition of the fine will have been preceded by a conviction. The imprisonment is in lieu of the fine and so makes no difference. His record will always read "convicted of x at y court and fined z".

ArtSmart

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There is no imprisonment for non payment of a civil judgement. The only way there might be imprisonment is if there was a civil judgement and there was an instalment proces begun against him and he didn't co-operate with it and pay an instalment. In that case there would be imprisonment for contempt and he would not be let out after a few hours. It was much more likely to have been a 2.5k criminal fine. There is no effect on the criminal record. The imposition of the fine will have been preceded by a conviction. The imprisonment is in lieu of the fine and so makes no difference. His record will always read "convicted of x at y court and fined z".

ok, suppose a guy owes the bank say, 6K. he's unemployed now and wont/ cant pay.

he doesnt go to court when eventually summoned. judge rules in favour of the bank in absentia . guy still refuse to pay.

what happens next?

ok, I'll give an answer from my understanding. According to Section 28 of the 1926 Act as amended by Section 6 of the 1940 Act a person can be sent to prison for 'willful neglect' to pay a debt after a court order - it doesnt distinguish between ability to pay and wilingness to pay. 35 people were incarcerated last year for non payment of debt.

The New Personal Solvency Bill doesnt seem to address that issue, but it might. (law soc recoms community service) but the bank , well, they aint happy.

What you describe as 'civil' most certainly becomes 'criminal' or as close as makes little difference - ie in terms of consequence.

Lapin

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

I'm sorry I didn't throw in some imaginary unicorns and blue elephants to excite you.

If you threw in some genuine unicorns that would really be something !

Am Chile

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

Basically, a friend of my brother didn't pay a €2,500 fine and after all the threatening letters from solicitors he ended up in court, did a few hours in the Midlands and walked out with €1.40 from the daily prisoner wage thing.

The logic of our jusitice system amazes me.

So the moral of the story ladies and gents, don't pay your fines and save and make money. :cool:

Out of interest the fine he received what was it in relation to ?

Tonto86

lisaj wrote: »

What about the criminal record and credit rating?

Fines for the like of littering, parking, local council etc dont carry a criminal offence. You can choose to serve a sentence instead of paying the fine and you wont end up with a criminal record. Also it will have no effect on your credit rating... dont really understand how people think that.

Most fines under €4000 will be a walk in walk out day job. I seen a guy get a €10,000 public dumping fine and serve half a day of a 30 day sentence

And some prisons give you €5 and your bus ticket home :pac:

milltown

A point that seems to be going largely missed here is that a criminal record is only a deterrent to people who don't have one already.
It would also seem to be a reasonable bet that the guy referenced in the OP doesn't have a credit rating worth losing any sleep over.

Milk & Honey

ArtSmart wrote: »

ok, suppose a guy owes the bank say, 6K. he's unemployed now and wont/ cant pay.

he doesnt go to court when eventually summoned. judge rules in favour of the bank in absentia . guy still refuse to pay.

what happens next?

ok, I'll give an answer from my understanding. According to Section 28 of the 1926 Act as amended by Section 6 of the 1940 Act a person can be sent to prison for 'willful neglect' to pay a debt after a court order - it doesnt distinguish between ability to pay and wilingness to pay. 35 people were incarcerated last year for non payment of debt.

The New Personal Solvency Bill doesnt seem to address that issue, but it might. (law soc recoms community service) but the bank , well, they aint happy.

What you describe as 'civil' most certainly becomes 'criminal' or as close as makes little difference - ie in terms of consequence.

After entry for a civil debt, there is an examination process which is a separate legal proceeding taken by the creditor after judgement has ben obtained. "wilful neglect" in this case means "can pay, won't pay". It can't be wilful if the person has no means to pay. The intent of the imprisonment is coercive i.e. to force compliance with the court order. The court must be satisfied that the person can afford to pay either the whole amount or an instalment before imprisonment occurs.
It is radically different in nature to imprisonment as punishment for a criminal offence.

AngryHippie

I met a guy over here in Oz a few weeks back, he had 10k worth of fines for boating and driving offences, he did the math and the lost income for him was less than the 28 day prison sentence for refusing to pay the fines. In he went and did his time. better off to the tune of about 3 grand. Happy camper !:rolleyes:

steve9859

Tonto86 wrote: »

Fines for the like of littering, parking, local council etc dont carry a criminal offence. You can choose to serve a sentence instead of paying the fine and you wont end up with a criminal record. Also it will have no effect on your credit rating... dont really understand how people think that.

Most fines under €4000 will be a walk in walk out day job. I seen a guy get a €10,000 public dumping fine and serve half a day of a 30 day sentence

And some prisons give you €5 and your bus ticket home :pac:

Surely its easier to put your litter in a bin?

dvpower

New Fines bill published today which will all but eliminate the practise of sending people to jail for non payment of fines.
They'll just attach the fine to your income if you refuse to pay.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1023/fines-bill-government.html

Irish Guitarist

I'd love €1.40 now. Aldi have noodles for only 20 cent a packet. For €1.40 I could buy seven packets of them.

I'm really jealous.

andrew241983

You still have to pay your fine when you get out of prison!!!

donegal_road

motor tax is a case in example, it used to be cheaper to pay the fine for not having tax, than to tax the car

Tar.Aldarion

Make money by not breaking the law. Special offer of no jailtime or community service.

Fulton Crown

AngryHippie wrote: »

I met a guy over here in Oz a few weeks back, he had 10k worth of fines for boating and driving offences, he did the math and the lost income for him was less than the 28 day prison sentence for refusing to pay the fines. In he went and did his time. better off to the tune of about 3 grand. Happy camper !:rolleyes:

Boating and Driving offensives ?

Sounds like one of these alpha chavs who wear tracksuits and three quarters on holiday.

Let me guess now ?

• This Dude thinks he is very smart.
• Probably welched on his car and Boat loans
• Ignores parking rules and speed limits.
• Routinely rips off all big institutions and Govt Departments.
• Sponges off his family

Typical Irishman really.........

gobnaitolunacy

Tonto86 wrote: »

Most fines under €4000 will be a walk in walk out day job. I seen a guy get a €10,000 public dumping fine and serve half a day of a 30 day sentence

And some prisons give you €5 and your bus ticket home :pac:

FFS, low lifes that litter the country should be made pick their sh*t up and more besides. Make the punishment fit the crime. Fcuking joke of a legal system.

If I was in charge the b*stards would be out in the orange jumpsuits on community service.

donegal_road

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

FFS, low lifes that litter the country should be made pick their sh*t up and more besides. Make the punishment fit the crime. Fcuking joke of a legal system.

If I was in charge the b*stards would be out in the orange jumpsuits on community service.

there was a case last year where a guy in Ashbourne went down to the local recycling place only to find all the bottle containers full. So he did what he saw everyone else had done, and left some plastic bags filled with empty bottles wedged in between the containers.

Unfortunately for him, he had parked his car within site of the security camera and the authorities managed to get his reg. So he received a fine in the post, and refused to pay it, went to court & the fine was doubled, refused to pay, went back to court and the fine was put up to €800, he refused to pay so the judge imposed a 2 week sentence. Thats the last I heard of it, an unlucky way for him to receive a criminal record.

Annasopra

juan.kerr wrote: »

In a few years scum bags who got suspended sentences will sue the state because they were denied the generous prison wages.

I wonder is it pensionable income...

Generous me hole. 1.70 a day!

Annasopra

andrew241983 wrote: »

You still have to pay your fine when you get out of prison!!!

That's the thing. Under current law you don't

Pat Mustard

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There is no imprisonment for non payment of a civil judgement. The only way there might be imprisonment is if there was a civil judgement and there was an instalment proces begun against him and he didn't co-operate with it and pay an instalment.

If you read my post correctly, you will see that I suggested that he was imprisoned for non-compliance with a court order. An instalment order is a court order, and in this instance, failure to comply with it is the most likely reason why the man was imprisoned.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

In that case there would be imprisonment for contempt and he would not be let out after a few hours.

Imprisonment will be for failure to comply with an instalment order, not contempt of court. See s.6 of the Enforcement of Court Orders Act 1940, as amended by s.2 of the Enforcement of Court Orders (Amendment) Act 2009.http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0021/print.html#sec2

Milk & Honey wrote: »

It was much more likely to have been a 2.5k criminal fine.

If not in relation to a civil judgment, then why did the OP mention that solicitors were writing to the man?

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There is no effect on the criminal record. The imposition of the fine will have been preceded by a conviction. The imprisonment is in lieu of the fine and so makes no difference. His record will always read "convicted of x at y court and fined z".

This all presupposes that it is a criminal matter - and that's not likely, given the description by the OP.

donegal_road

looks like the party is over. Government to introduce system of paying fines by installment

Tonto86

andrew241983 wrote: »

You still have to pay your fine when you get out of prison!!!

Eh no, ya don't

And why do people keep saying criminal record, if its not a crime you don't get a criminal record!

Milk & Honey

The Mustard wrote: »

If you read my post correctly, you will see that I suggested that he was imprisoned for non-compliance with a court order. An instalment order is a court order, and in this instance, failure to comply with it is the most likely reason why the man was imprisoned.

Imprisonment will be for failure to comply with an instalment order, not contempt of court. See s.6 of the Enforcement of Court Orders Act 1940, as amended by s.2 of the Enforcement of Court Orders (Amendment) Act 2009.http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0021/print.html#sec2

If not in relation to a civil judgment, then why did the OP mention that solicitors were writing to the man?


This all presupposes that it is a criminal matter - and that's not likely, given the description by the OP.

Instalments are not for €2.5k. They will be what someone can afford after being brought to the District Court and being examined as to means. The instalment order would be to pay €50 a month or some such.

The letters the man got were from agents employed to try and get the money in before the arrest warrant was executed.

It was certainly not a civil matter given the description. If there was a civil judgement and the individual refused to go to the District Court he would be arrested and brought there to have his means assessed. That didn't happen. A judgement in a civil case is not a fine. In a civil case the debt is not written off following imprisonment. It is also very unlikely to have been in a round sum as there would be added costs in any civil process.

Pat Mustard

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Instalments are not for €2.5k.

You assert this as if rebutting some point I made.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The letters the man got were from agents employed to try and get the money in before the arrest warrant was executed.

What agents? Are you saying it was a civil debt collection case and solicitors were writing about that?

Milk & Honey wrote: »

If there was a civil judgement and the individual refused to go to the District Court he would be arrested and brought there to have his means assessed. That didn't happen.

Your point is not clear, but I would suggest that this is how the debtor came to be imprisoned: The debtor attended the instalment order application, the instalment order was made, he failed to make some or all of the relevant payments under the instalment order subequently, the creditor made an application to court on foot of the debtor's failure to comply with the instalment order, then the judge made an order to imprison the debtor on failure to comply with the instalment order.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

A judgement in a civil case is not a fine.

This is not in dispute.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

In a civil case the debt is not written off following imprisonment.

What point are you making?

Milk & Honey wrote: »

It is also very unlikely to have been in a round sum as there would be added costs in any civil process.

Interesting point, but there are apparent contradictions in the original post. Perhaps the reference to €2,500 is an approximate figure.

If it really is a fine, it's a pretty large one, if it's €2,500.

By way of comparison, people who have been convicted of drink driving often get fines in the region of €500 for a first offence.