Dog Radio Fence

almighty1

Hi,

I've a 4 month old Golden Retriever and wish to purchase a radio fence shock collar so she can have the free run of the garden.
Does anybody have any advice on what brands I should be looking at, Petsafe, Innotek etc?

Many thanks.

andreac

Lovely, another person wanting to electrocute their dog, surely these threads should be banned (in my opinion), as they are advocating cruelty to your pet!! :mad:

almighty1

andreac wrote: »

Lovely, another person wanting to electrocute their dog, surely these threads should be banned (in my opinion), as they are advocating cruelty to your pet!! :mad:

Please keep on topic. I asked about Dog Fence vendors not about the moral aspects of using one. And you really don't understand the difference between shocking and electrocuting :rolleyes:. So if you cant answer my question please be on your merry little way andreac.

loveisdivine

Could you not just make sure your garden is secure? Using normal fencing and equipment that doesnt "shock" your dog?

Edit - It would also probably be more secure that way, as I've heard of dogs that get used to the shock and just bolt straight through.

westies4ever

almighty1 wrote: »

Hi,

I've a 4 month old Golden Retriever and wish to purchase a radio fence shock collar so she can have the free run of the garden.
Does anybody have any advice on what brands I should be looking at, Petsafe, Innotek etc?

Many thanks.

I'd suggest you do a search on previous threads regarding this subject. Shock collars are extremely unpopular with the regular posters on this forum.

andreac

almighty1 wrote: »

Please keep on topic. I asked about Dog Fence vendors not about the moral aspects of using one. And you really don't understand the difference between shocking and electrocuting :rolleyes:. So if you cant answer my question please be on your merry little way andreac.

Theres no difference between an electric shock and electrocuting a dog, its still inflicting unnecessary pain to your pet, why would you want to do that?? Seriously, how anyone could do this to their pet is beyond me, it really is.

How would you feel with one of these around your neck and getting a shock everytime you moved somewhere.

Im really losing faith in people who deem themselves so called pet lovers/owners who purposely set out to hurt their pets!!

loveisdivine

It really is akin to going out and giving your dog a swift kick everytime it goes somewhere it shouldnt. No one in their right mind would do that, so why a shock collar?

almighty1

loveisdivine wrote: »

Could you not just make sure your garden is secure? Using normal fencing and equipment that doesnt "shock" your dog?

Edit - It would also probably be more secure that way, as I've heard of dogs that get used to the shock and just bolt straight through.

I've tried. Spent lots on money on fencing and wire. I know there isn't any foolproof system but really I don't want her confined to dog run which IMO is crueler.

My next door neighbour has a King Charles and it only ever needed to be shocked twice. Its even got to a stage now that if it is turned off she wont go near the wire, she has full reign of the garden and is the most pleasant and unnervous (proper word) you could meet.

barbiegirl

Shock collars are not a safe manner of keeping a dog contained. Dogs can and will go through the pain to get at something they really want. Do yourself a favour and invest in proper fencing.

Irrespective of their usefullness I really do hate them.

almighty1

andreac wrote: »

Theres no difference between an electric shock and electrocuting a dog, its still inflicting unnecessary pain to your pet, why would you want to do that?? Seriously, how anyone could do this to their pet is beyond me, it really is.

How would you feel with one of these around your neck and getting a shock everytime you moved somewhere.

Im really losing faith in people who deem themselves so called pet lovers/owners who purposely set out to hurt their pets!!

I was hoping this thread wouldn't transcend into this. Surely confining your dog to a run is crueler? Dogs instinctively like to roam and survey their area.

Generally a couple of shocks is all that is required to have the desired affect. Its not that is the dogs is going to get 100+ shocks daily.

cena

We brought one of them years ago and I never used it. I would let the brothers use it on my man. I feel its mean to them. You wouldn't like one of them around your neck.

TooManyDogs

I bought one of these years ago and there's nothing I regret more. I wasn't effective for half of my dogs, they would regularily run through it even on the highest level. It regularily failed either from power failure or a break in the wire and the box would beep alerting the dogs that the fence was down so they'd all be gone when I got home from work.

So put your money into fencing

borderlinemeath

almighty1 wrote: »

I was hoping this thread wouldn't transcend into this. Surely confining your dog to a run is crueler? Dogs instinctively like to roam and survey their area.

Your dog will not be able to instinctively roam and survey their area. It will be a nervous wreck waiting to get a shock.

Generally a couple of shocks is all that is required to have the desired affect. Its not that is the dogs is going to get 100+ shocks daily.

How do you know? Every dog is different. A king charles is a dog that has little or no hunting instincts whereas your golden retriever (clue is in the name;)) will chase small birds/animals/rodents. It could bolt through the boundary and then be too scared to return for fear of getting a shock.

Also your dog is only 4 months old. It's still learning. It WILL become a nervous wreck if you subject it to this at such a young and impressionable age. Dogs that are confused/nervous/anxious can turn aggressive if they cannot figure out what is hurting them. If you insist on getting a radio fence be prepared to see a happy confident puppy change into a dog with a lot of behavioural issues.

andreac

almighty1 wrote: »

I was hoping this thread wouldn't transcend into this. Surely confining your dog to a run is crueler? Dogs instinctively like to roam and survey their area.

Generally a couple of shocks is all that is required to have the desired affect. Its not that is the dogs is going to get 100+ shocks daily.

How on earth is keeping a dog safe in a run more cruel than shocking your dog and inflicting pain?? Runs dont hurt your dog, they are responsible and safe.
If your dog is getting the correct exercise and care, then runs are not cruel.

Dogs will roam if they are allowed to, so its up to us owners to be responsible and do the best by our pets, and that doesnt involve physically hurting them.

One shock is one too many for me. I couldnt imagine doing that to my beloved pet

almighty1

borderlinemeath wrote: »

[/B]

Your dog will not be able to instinctively roam and survey their area. It will be a nervous wreck waiting to get a shock.

How do you know? Every dog is different. A king charles is a dog that has little or no hunting instincts whereas your golden retriever (clue is in the name;)) will chase small birds/animals/rodents. It could bolt through the boundary and then be too scared to return for fear of getting a shock.

Also your dog is only 4 months old. It's still learning. It WILL become a nervous wreck if you subject it to this at such a young and impressionable age. Dogs that are confused/nervous/anxious can turn aggressive if they cannot figure out what is hurting them. If you insist on getting a radio fence be prepared to see a happy confident puppy change into a dog with a lot of behavioural issues.

Oh sweet jesus where do I start. Firstly you mention that every dog is different and then say they will be a "nervous wreck waiting to get a shock. You mention everything above as its set in stone and in reality its scaremongering drivel.

So does anybody want to actually answer my original question?

almighty1

Ok mods, please close this thread. I've read enough garbage. I'll buy the cheapest one on ebay.

andreac

almighty1 wrote: »

Ok mods, please close this thread. I've read enough garbage. I'll buy the cheapest one on ebay.

Poor dog :mad:

andreac

almighty1 wrote: »

Ok mods, please close this thread. I've read enough garbage. I'll buy the cheapest one on ebay.

What did you expect genuine dog lovers to say to you, that its ok to intentionally inflict pain on your dog?? I dont think so.

Some people shouldnt be allowed to own pets!!

DBB

Mod note; bearing in mind that the site charter requires that posters are civil to one another, and to attack the post not the poster, several posters here are pushing their luck.
If you have a problem with a post, report it.
Do not descend to the petty sniping evident in some posts thus far. This is a first and final warning.
Do not reply to this part of this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

With mod hat now off, OP, there are some topics which are, by their very nature, inflame posters in this forum. Using any form of shock on a dog is one of them, and so you're unlikely to get people racing forth to recommend any such gear, no matter the brand.
I'd suggest you look for product reviews on independent review sites, as I don't believe you'll get the info you want here, rather you will, and have already, receive advice suggesting more ethical alternatives.

borderlinemeath

almighty1 wrote: »

Oh sweet jesus where do I start. Firstly you mention that every dog is different and then say they will be a "nervous wreck waiting to get a shock. You mention everything above as its set in stone and in reality its scaremongering drivel.

So does anybody want to actually answer my original question?

I was answering your statement that started off with 'generally':rolleyes:

It's not scaremongering drivel. All dogs are different. Some will bolt through the fence and refuse to come back. Any breed with a prey drive will overcome the pain barrier to try and catch something.

Some will get a shock and go and run to the furthest part of the garden away from the fence. Afraid of what might happen to them. They're walking along and they hear a beep and suddenly they get a shock. And they've done nothing to deserve it.

I personally know two dogs that turned into nervous wrecks. One is a goldie who is about 18 months old. He now sits in one spot in the garden and is afraid of his life to move for fear of getting a shock. The family have a 6 year old and the dog has attempted to go for the father once so now they're considering getting rid of the dog now they've made a mess of it.

Another dog turned from being a dog from excellent hunting stock to one that was so terrified of the fence it dug a hole under the garden shed and stayed there rather than walking 'instinctively' round his garden.

I doubt you'll find anybody here that will recommend these fences. Any decent trainers, behaviourists will not recommend them either.

jamesd

My Akita has one on since he was 6 months and he is now 3.5yrs old, he has only over gotten 2 shocks and since then once he hears it beep he takes a step back.
We live opposite sheep farmers and out dog has never escaped and is in no way nervous.

I feel this has kept him safe from harm - he has a full acre to roam on every day about the house and comes in and out of the house as he wants during the day.

Petsafe is the make we got him.

_Lady_

OP, I have to say I know two families who have this installed and it's worked perfectly. One smaller dog, ran through it once, got a low level shock and following that they increased the warning beep to a higher level so he became more aware of his limitations at a safe distance from where he would be shocked. Within about a year they hardly needed to have it on.

In another case they were larger dogs, again I think only two shocks - tbh from what I've heard from certain people who've used them, they're closer to a stinging feeling than a shock for many dogs, and once that happened, they happily marched their perimeters inside the beep warning i.e. totally away from any potential pain. Also, they said it was v important that before walkies, they knew their heavier collar was being taken off and they were being walked back in the gate and were always happy to do so.

In both cases, wearing the collar is enough now and the system is rarely switched on. Perfectly happy, loved and well looked after dogs with lots of space to run around - dogs are smart they know where the boundaries are. They are safe from traffic on the roads and safe from the threat of discovering livestock nearby to worry. And not stuck on a rope some where which I believe is even worse.

It's certainly a controversial topic - but I believe the sting is along the lines of being cruel to be kind. It's provides such safety and if it only happens twice, it's surely similar to say stepping on the dogs tail by mistake, I saw the small dog the day he ran through over it. He yelped once and then he was happy to run straight back through the gate into the house and go straight in for a cuddle. He wasn't cowering for hours or traumatised, he was fine again within a few minutes. Lesson learned. In the houses involved complete fencing wasn't practical and I don't believe one limited dog run is as good either.

Ourselves, we're lucky that our garden is completely fenced in but we've had to cement certain areas around the edges to avoid our fella digging out. Wouldn't be buying a radio system for my dog if I can avoid it, it's not ideal and if you had any other option, I'd certainly try that first. But I can understand why the people I knew did it. It was after a number of very dangerous breakouts - both for the dogs themselves and for motorists on roads and they had to try something and it worked. That's all.

foreversky

my sister has one on her 7 yr lab cross innotec system,live in the countryside.dont want them going after the sheep....only got out bout 3 times .power failure.hit by lightning.my neighbour behide has one on her lab and small dog. works well.

DBB

I've used the petsafe fence in the past. Both of my dogs could and would brace themselves and take the shock if there was something sufficiently motivating on the other side. I had several heart stopping afternoons of looking for my dogs.
My system malfunctioned one day, such that no matter where my dogs were in the garden, they got shocked. I won't try to describe what effect that had on my dogs, it upsets me too much. That day ended my use of the system, following on from several escapes and painful incidents, none of this would have happened had I just built a fence. What really drove it home was that my friend, who'd installed the same system at about the same time, had exactly the same thing happen. Horrendous.
My neighbour had their dog on the system too. Two other dogs waltzed into their garden one day and trapped the resident dog, who would not leave the garden due to the fence. That dog was ripped apart by the two visitors and died later of his injuries. Not a small dog himself, he was a black lab.
Another ex-neighbour has a Great Dane who got such a fright from his first ever shock, the dog cannot go out in the garden, YEARS later, without almost having a nervous breakdown. Oh, and trying to bite anyone who tries to force him out. I know several owners whose dogs are the same, after just one shock.
Two other dogs I know have learned to sit just on the periphery, wear down the battery, then head off for a stroll around the neighbourhood. They are two I know personally, I've heard of quite a few more. Indeed, a phone call to any pound in the country will reveal that dogs come in to the pound having been found straying, wearing their radio collars, on a regular basis.
I have tried the collar on myself a few times, different brands. On my hand, not my neck. It hurt. At best, it was unpleasant. At worst, I thought my heart was going to stop, and I had pain in my hand and chest for hours after at the lowest setting. My ex-landlord had one of my dog's collars in his pocket one day, forgot it was there and walked across the boundary. I heard the roar from inside my house, and went out to find him quite distressed at the fright and strength of the shock.
Just thought I'd stick these here as real-life events, all of which reflect some common, and I really do mean these are common problems. Not one-offs, isolated events or exceptions. From one who has used the system, but would not any more, for any money.

_Lady_

DBB wrote: »

I've used the petsafe fence in the past. Both of my dogs could and would brace themselves and take the shock if there was something sufficiently motivating on the other side. I had several heart stopping afternoons of looking for my dogs.
My system malfunctioned one day, such that no matter where my dogs were in the garden, they got shocked. I won't try to describe what effect that had on my dogs, it upsets me too much. That day ended my use of the system, following on from several escapes and painful incidents, none of this would have happened had I just built a fence. What really drove it home was that my friend, who'd installed the same system at about the same time, had exactly the same thing happen. Horrendous.
My neighbour had their dog on the system too. Two other dogs waltzed into their garden one day and trapped the resident dog, who would not leave the garden due to the fence. That dog was ripped apart by the two visitors and died later of his injuries. Not a small dog himself, he was a black lab.
Another ex-neighbour has a Great Dane who got such a fright from his first ever shock, the dog cannot go out in the garden, YEARS later, without almost having a nervous breakdown. Oh, and trying to bite anyone who tries to force him out. I know several owners whose dogs are the same, after just one shock.
Two other dogs I know have learned to sit just on the periphery, wear down the battery, then head off for a stroll around the neighbourhood. They are two I know personally, I've heard of quite a few more. Indeed, a phone call to any pound in the country will reveal that dogs come in to the pound having been found straying, wearing their radio collars, on a regular basis.
I have tried the collar on myself a few times, different brands. On my hand, not my neck. It hurt. At best, it was unpleasant. At worst, I thought my heart was going to stop, and I had pain in my hand and chest for hours after at the lowest setting. My ex-landlord had one of my dog's collars in his pocket one day, forgot it was there and walked across the boundary. I heard the roar from inside my house, and went out to find him quite distressed at the fright and strength of the shock.
Just thought I'd stick these here as real-life events, all of which reflect some common, and I really do mean these are common problems. Not one-offs, isolated events or exceptions. From one who has used the system, but would not any more, for any money.

Geez I can't say ive ever heard of cases like that before - but then in the two cases I'm familiar with, they didn't need to leave te system on for too long so the threat of shock was reduced without the dog realising it. Am really telling you of truthful experiences here - a v happy dalmation who despite their bad rep is extremely smart and also a terrier mix. Also, when the dad of the small dog household got it, he tried it on his own risk at a medium level and said it was a sting but that he defo wouldn't be putting it up any higher for a dog of that size (terrier mix). Thanks for the info on the potential malfunctions , ill defo pass it on for them to beware of. Would certainly turn me off the idea for sure.

TooManyDogs

_Lady_ wrote: »

Geez I can't say ive ever heard of cases like that before

I've had a number of those senarios happen to me when I had mine. 3 braced themselves for the shock to leave the garden, 2 wouldn't come back because they didn't have the same motivation but at least I knew they were getting out, the third one would come back in so I didn't know she was missing (some people will recognise her antics from my various serial-escape-artist-smartar$e dog threads). I ended up putting a 25-40kg collar on her, a 10kg dog in an attempt to keep her in cos the highest setting on her recommended collar didn't keep her in. My husband tried the collar on his arm and let me tell you, he roared and shouted.

My elderly dog at the time got 1 shock and would simply freeze and shut down in the shocking zone getting repeatidly shocked, and let me tell you the screams will be in my memory forever. Any attempt to put a collar on her afterwards would result in her shutting down. A different dog of mine refused to leave the house at all as soon as you put the collar on her.

I volunteer in a rescue center and like DBB said we often get in dogs with collars on them, I live in a fairly rural area and the local shops often have Lost Dog posters in them featuring dogs with shock collars on them. When you have a break in the line you have to follow the entire line and we only had half an acre to do and that is a pain in the rear and takes a nice bit of time. Line failures and power failures made my power box beep and the dogs very quickly got to know that meant the fence wasn't working and they'd all head up (bar the one who would permenantly shut down with the collar on)

I spent over €500 on my system by the time I bought the extra wire and collars, and that money would have gone a long way towards the physical fencing I had to buy in the end.

If you do decide to buy a system just make sure you understand that this is not a fool proof method that will guaranteed to work on all dogs if you follow the training plan. Also ask a neighbour who has the system if you can try out their collar, and actually put it on your neck at a high setting because there is the chance you'll need it, and walk to the boundary and see if you're prepared to put your dog through that even only once or twice.

I had a Petsafe Radio fence and I would not recommend one.

Whispered

My mother often has the neighbours dogs in the garden with their collars on. I dropped them back one day and had removed the collar but as I walked them over the treshhold one of them tried to bite me, the other two squirmed until they got away from me, terrified to go back in.

That woman smirked at me and said "Oh I know people like you don't agree with them but I need something to keep them in" she says as the dogs run down the road. :rolleyes:

And the sickening thing? It had been recommended by a "trainer" in the south east.

fatmammycat

Whispered wrote: »

My mother often has the neighbours dogs in the garden with their collars on. I dropped them back one day and had removed the collar but as I walked them over the treshhold one of them tried to bite me, the other two squirmed until they got away from me, terrified to go back in.

That woman smirked at me and said "Oh I know people like you don't agree with them but I need something to keep them in" she says as the dogs run down the road. :rolleyes:

And the sickening thing? It had been recommended by a "trainer" in the south east.

You should take heart that 'people like you' = people with a little empathy.

dahamsta

<snip>
Dahamsta, you have just ignored a mod warning only 10 posts up from this, asking that posters remain civil to one another, and to desist from sniping comments.
As you are a very infrequent user of this forum, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one occasion, and leave this as an on-thread warning.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

bogshepherd

I was looking for info similar to the op when I came across this thread. Seems like a lot of arguing going on here that could be taking place in an "animal cruelty" or "ethics of radio fence thread". I will say that any of the dogs I've seen using this system are very happy, much happier than dogs enclosed by fences as the radio fence system generally allows a much greater range of movement than would be econmoically viable for many people if they were using fencing which can be quite expensive. Also dogs don't feel pain the same way as humans, they have a much greater tolerance and forget about it much quicker than we do so the arguement "you wouldn't want a collar round you neck" doesnt really apply. You wouldn't like to have a leash or a muzzle put on you when you go for a walk or eat food off the floor, but obviously we can't apply the same values to humans and dogs. When I first got my dog he used to scratch the patio door constantly trying to get inside so I have him a clout on the nose with a rolled up newspaper. Is that cruel? Well it only had to be done once, the dog never did scratched the glass again and he is happy as larry sitting outside the door and understands that if he sits quietly he'll be allowed in eventually. A small jolt from a collar is no more cruel than a clout with a newspaper and I think most dog owners have done this at some stage or another.

Senna

You can buy a Petsafe system (usual system, different collar) that bleeps rather than shocks, then train your dog that once they hear a bleep, they have to turn and walk away. I trained my second dog with this system, it took 2 months of constant training and really took up a lot of my time. During these 2 months the dog could make a mistake and go passed the bleeps but nothing would happen, no shock.

The system worked perfect, I left the dogs out for a few hours everyday for 6 months when the system wasn't even turned on, never once went near the boundaries because they knew were they were so just stayed away.

The problem with these fences is people buy cheap ones and people don't train their dogs on how to use them. Its takes one month for even the smartest dog to learn. This means one month of training them either on a lead or with the system bleeping and no shock setting. A dog should not get a shock while training.

I have a petsafe system, but I wouldn't recommend people buy one, most people don't understand that it takes a lot of training and they just put the collar on and leave the dog to learn by him/herself. I would be more than happy if they were banned.

DBB

bogshepherd wrote: »

Also dogs don't feel pain the same way as humans, they have a much greater tolerance and forget about it much quicker than we do

I would be very interested to see the evidence you have to back up this statement, please.

fatmammycat

DBB wrote: »

I would be very interested to see the evidence you have to back up this statement, please.

It's nonsense; a dog can't complain the way a human can, therefore people like to pretend they feel pain differently, that way they can 'clout' them without remorse. You know, they way we 'clout' babies and children when they do something wrong.

andreac

bogshepherd wrote: »

Also dogs don't feel pain the same way as humans, they have a much greater tolerance and forget about it much quicker than we do so the arguement When I first got my dog he used to scratch the patio door constantly trying to get inside so I have him a clout on the nose with a rolled up newspaper. Is that cruel? .

First of all, how did you come up with that idea, that dogs dont feel pain the way we do?? How do you know? Wheres your evidence to support such a claim?

And yes, it is cruel to hit a dog on the nose with a newspaper :mad:

LisaO

bogshepherd wrote: »

Also dogs don't feel pain the same way as humans, they have a much greater tolerance and forget about it much quicker than we do

We kept some pigs until about 3 years ago & 1 of my dogs got a shock from the electric fence around their enclosure once. He will still not go into that area, no amount of enticement will induce him; as soon as he sees me going towards the area he becomes extremely agitated and runs away.

Maybe I should give him a "clout" to sort him out

ppink

The name "Dog Radio Fence" always makes me laugh a bit.......its like the dog is given a walkie talkie or something instead of a labelling it as it is "Dog Shock Collar".

Bog shepherd if dogs forget about pain quicker than we do then does this not mean they will be getting shocked constantly?

Foreversky i cant understand you saying it works well when your sisters dog breached it 3 times in an area with sheep. If she put up a secure run then that would never have been an issue....unless it was a tornado!

foxer3640

I have used the pet safe system for a number of years and have found it to work pretty well. I had spent 1500 euro on chain link fence and buried it with stone on the bottom but one of the dogs (jack russell) would dig and dig until she got through and then the other dogs(rottis) would follow her out. There are a lot of sheep in my area so i had to try something different. I set up the system so that they would have to be almost through the fence before the collar kicked in. They only got actually shocked once or twice at the start and now they only have to hear the beep and they will leave the fence alone. The area i have my dogs in measures about a quarter acre and to hear people on this site say that their dogs are happier cooped up in a little 8x4 mesh box all day and just get a walk in the evening makes me sick. In my opinion that is more cruel than the shock collar.

LisaO

A number of posters advocating the use of shock fences state their dogs only received a shock a couple of times. But how would you know? Unless you are there to watch them all the time they are in the area enclosed by the shock fence - which would negate the need to use it

foxer3640

LisaO wrote: »

A number of posters advocating the use of shock fences state their dogs only received a shock a couple of times. But how would you know? Unless you are there to watch them all the time they are in the area enclosed by the shock fence - which would negate the need to use it

I kept the wire that activates the collar a metre out from the fence so that the dog would have to be almost through before the collar beeped. They gave up trying to get out so they were not getting shocked. I would not like to use it on its own without a fence though. Dog runs through and gets shocked and then gets shocked again while trying to get back in.... not good.

Galway K9

Just a note almighty, the best approach for you and the dog from my experience is to understand why dogs leave the garden, its often out of boredom, adventure...something is more fun outside than inside..The best practice i found for this was to throw the ball in and around the garden, play in the garden with the dog, also just tire him/her out, provide bone or kong...

In 85 percent of all cases i've seen this had worked, there was failure but the failure was over powered by the survival instinct to mate and no toy would distract dog from that, or me lol.

ppink

foxer3640 wrote: »

I have used the pet safe system for a number of years and have found it to work pretty well. I had spent 1500 euro on chain link fence and buried it with stone on the bottom but one of the dogs (jack russell) would dig and dig until she got through and then the other dogs(rottis) would follow her out. There are a lot of sheep in my area so i had to try something different. I set up the system so that they would have to be almost through the fence before the collar kicked in. They only got actually shocked once or twice at the start and now they only have to hear the beep and they will leave the fence alone. The area i have my dogs in measures about a quarter acre and to hear people on this site say that their dogs are happier cooped up in a little 8x4 mesh box all day and just get a walk in the evening makes me sick. In my opinion that is more cruel than the shock collar.

we put steel mesh on the ground horizontally around our dog runs under the soil/bark mulch so when they dig they hit the mesh and cant get through it. It seemed to work ok for us, no escapees in 10 years anyway:).

bogshepherd

fatmammycat wrote: »

It's nonsense; a dog can't complain the way a human can, therefore people like to pretend they feel pain differently, that way they can 'clout' them without remorse.

Watch a dog go through a ditch of brambles and ask yourself could you do that as painlessly as the dog did? Look at a dog that cuts itself on something and pays no attention whatsoever to the injury after 2 minutes compared to a person who shows signs of distress far longer after being hurt. Aside from this there are a number of studies on dogs' sensitivity to pain and you can use google scholar to look in to this subject. It varies from dog to dog but in general most dogs, especially the working breeds and larger breeds have evolved to be more resilient and less sensititive to pain in the same way as wolves and other wild animals have.

fatmammycat wrote: »

You know, they way we 'clout' babies and children when they do something wrong.

Giving the same values to dogs as humans? We don't put down humans when they get sick, but we do for dogs. We don't castrate men to stop them chasing girls, but we do for dogs. I love my dog, but I can't treat him like a person. He doesn't have the same psychology or behaviour. He doesn't regret decisions based on the morality of his behaviour, he understands a small disciplinary action like a brief, minor pain as a negative consequence for a particular action, ie. small shock when crossing wire = do not cross wire. It's not because he fears the wire or is stressed or worried about the wire, his brain works on a very simple set of perceived consequences for different types of behaviour.

Incase I'm coming across as some sort of sadistic dog killer I'd like to say that I don't approve of training methods that use violence or harsh techniques. It's always better to reward good behaviour than to punish bad behaviour in order to achieve the behaviour that you want, but in some cases mild punishment techniques are necessary. I believe that a small clout with a newspaper or a small electric shock do constitute a mild punishment for dogs.

bogshepherd

LisaO wrote: »

Maybe I should give him a "clout" to sort him out

No that obviously wouldn't work. But I'm sure there are techniques that could be used to teach the dog where it is and is not safe. Creating a positive experience out of being in the environment would be a start. Put his food bowl somewhere in sight of the area as close as he is willing to be to it and feed him there every day. Then move it a little bit closer every day. He will soon learn there is no danger. I've used this on a dog that wouldn't go past a house on our lane where he was attacked by another dog and it worked great, by stopping as soon as he showed signs of distress on approach to the house and giving him a treat to distract and reward him and getting a little closer each day he learned to lose his anxiety of the house and thankfully the owners have the dog properly enclosed now, although admittedly not by a radio fence!

fatmammycat

bogshepherd wrote: »

Watch a dog go through a ditch of brambles and ask yourself could you do that as painlessly as the dog did? Look at a dog that cuts itself on something and pays no attention whatsoever to the injury after 2 minutes compared to a person who shows signs of distress far longer after being hurt. Aside from this there are a number of studies on dogs' sensitivity to pain and you can use google scholar to look in to this subject. It varies from dog to dog but in general most dogs, especially the working breeds and larger breeds have evolved to be more resilient and less sensititive to pain in the same way as wolves and other wild animals have.



Giving the same values to dogs as humans? We don't put down humans when they get sick, but we do for dogs. We don't castrate men to stop them chasing girls, but we do for dogs. I love my dog, but I can't treat him like a person. He doesn't have the same psychology or behaviour. He doesn't regret decisions based on the morality of his behaviour, he understands a small disciplinary action like a brief, minor pain as a negative consequence for a particular action, ie. small shock when crossing wire = do not cross wire. It's not because he fears the wire or is stressed or worried about the wire, his brain works on a very simple set of perceived consequences for different types of behaviour.

Incase I'm coming across as some sort of sadistic dog killer I'd like to say that I don't approve of training methods that use violence or harsh techniques. It's always better to reward good behaviour than to punish bad behaviour in order to achieve the behaviour that you want, but in some cases mild punishment techniques are necessary. I believe that a small clout with a newspaper or a small electric shock do constitute a mild punishment for dogs.

Watch two boxers in a ring, oh look, they keep fighting, obviously they are not in any pain. Watch a ballerina dance, got to be painless right? Watch a gang of kids skateboarding, see when they fall off and get right back up? do they feel pain differently to other people? They must, otherwise why would they keep skating, even with cut knees and bruised elbows.

I appreciate you're not a sadist, and I understand the point you are making, but because a dog might not show pain the same way a human does not mean they don't feel pain like we do and it's anoying when people trot out the line as though mistreating them is AOK because of this.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201109/do-dogs-feel-pain-the-same-way-humans-do


Also, I never said dogs were human, I don't treat my own dog thusly, he's a dog with a dog brain and dog behaviour. Neither do I clout him with a newspaper to make him obey me. Yet remarkably, even at 8 months, he has mastered a whole host of commands and actively seeks my approval. He trusts me, in part, because I don't clout him. I think clouting a dog is just lazy handling. I brought up children because there are plenty of people that think 'clouting' children is fine too, they don't hit back (maybe they don't feel pain the way grown ups do) and sure it's grand as a mild punishment. I think clouting children is lazy parenting.

bogshepherd

fatmammycat wrote: »

I think clouting a dog is just lazy handling.

I think its a convenient technique but I don't think its lazy, or cruel. I'm talking about a small clip with a newspaper on the nose. It doesn't do the dog any harm or cause any real pain. I appreciate there are lots of conflicing views on how dogs feel harm and the article you posted does have merit, I've read it before. With any issue there will be studies proving for and against so it's really hard to establish a definitive truth for the agruement. But if you do believe humans and dogs feel pain the same then roll up a newspaper and give yourself a short clip in the nose. Decide how painful it was and how long the pain lasts. I'm not talking about a powerful smack with a big wind up! In my opinion its not significant and is more of a shock to the dogs senses which snaps him out of the unawnted behaviour. Another way would be to squirt him with a little water pistol to distract him when he exhibits such a behaviour, which is preferable if you bleieve the pain from the newspaper is too much, but I don't think it is.

Whispered

It's quite nice to have someone in the forum who advocates the use of force or a small bit of pain, but who doesn't get all defensive when it's put to them it might not be the best way. Leaves the way open for conversation.

There are obvious merits of interrupting a behaviour that you don't want. I would suggest a better way of doing it would be to really make a word interesting to your dog. I regularly reinforce their look command even though they know it well. I use it to interrupted behaviour I don't want, like chasing a cat, running to another dog for games and I use it a lot when play gets too rough between them. I call "LOOK", the behaviour stops when they look at me, then I can add another command like come or sit and they usually get a nice treat.

I think it's a good idea to give the dog something else to do when you interrupt a behaviour. So stop jumping and sit, or stop chewing the door, chew this chew toy instead. It might not be necessary but I think it helps change unwanted behaviour rather than just suppress it.

SillyMangoX

Whispered wrote: »

It's quite nice to have someone in the forum who advocates the use of force or a small bit of pain, but who doesn't get all defensive when it's put to them it might not be the best way. Leaves the way open for conversation.

There are obvious merits of interrupting a behaviour that you don't want. I would suggest a better way of doing it would be to really make a word interesting to your dog. I regularly reinforce their look command even though they know it well. I use it to interrupted behaviour I don't want, like chasing a cat, running to another dog for games and I use it a lot when play gets too rough between them. I call "LOOK", the behaviour stops when they look at me, then I can add another command like come or sit and they usually get a nice treat.

I think it's a good idea to give the dog something else to do when you interrupt a behaviour. So stop jumping and sit, or stop chewing the door, chew this chew toy instead. It might not be necessary but I think it helps change unwanted behaviour rather than just suppress it.

I totally agree with having a 'break away' command in place, but sometimes something comes as such as a shock that the natural reaction is to hit out (same would happen if I got a bad fright from a human, someone runs towards you, you naturally put out your hands to defend) Like for example, the other day the dog jumped up and mouthed my arm, she had never done it before but I got such a shock I hit her a slap but I felt immediately bad afterwards. It stopped her biting me, but didn't address the problem of her being hyper. I really don't think it hurt her as she kept bouncing around as she was but she just stopped mouthing me. I know she has a high pain tolerance as I've accidentally closed a door on her tail, and stood on her paw and she has just looked at me as if to say ''hey, that's mine, give it back!.'. It's not something I would advocate at all as a regular form of punishment though, its like with the case of children, you could sit them down and rationalize with them why they shouldn't dart across the road, but if it happens you may get such a fright that a short slap fixes the problem quick. Of course it doesn't help in the long run, no form of physical punishment does. But again, this is different to actually applying an electric shock to the most sensitive part of the dog. No matter how weak the shock may be, I really don't think it should be done. What if the dog has an undected heart problem? Then it's bye bye doggie. Just not a rick I would be willing to take when there are other ways to safely contain a dog in a garden. Just my 2 cents on the matter!

DBB

bogshepherd wrote: »

Watch a dog go through a ditch of brambles and ask yourself could you do that as painlessly as the dog did? Look at a dog that cuts itself on something and pays no attention whatsoever to the injury after 2 minutes compared to a person who shows signs of distress far longer after being hurt.

As already posted, humans can and do ignore pain when they're in certain situations: I've broken bones and not known it for hours after. Adrenaline produces an analgesic effect in order to get an animal, human included, away from something that has harmed it, in the "flight or fight" response.

Aside from this there are a number of studies on dogs' sensitivity to pain and you can use google scholar to look in to this subject. It varies from dog to dog but in general most dogs, especially the working breeds and larger breeds have evolved to be more resilient and less sensititive to pain in the same way as wolves and other wild animals have.

I can't find any... can you link to some of them here please?


Anyway, that all aside, the simple reality is that whilst your nose slaps etc can work, the fall-out can be damaging.. you slap a sensitive, nervous dog on the nose, even gently, you will likely end up with a dog with more serious problems than the one that caused you to slap it in the first place!
The stark truth, to anyone who uses slaps (even gentle ones) and the like to "correct" undesirable behaviour, is that there is simply no need to do this in order to stop the behaviour: Whispered's post nicely illustrates an ethical, completely harmless way to stop dogs doing stuff you don't want them to. There are also Time Outs and Reward Withholding to use as "punishments", which do no harm to the dog's psyche or trust in humans.
Now, I know, we all know, that there are times when we lash out if the dog gives us a fright or hurts us, as per Sillymango's post: sometimes, it can be understandable, as long as there are once-offs.
However, and this is REALLY important, this is an entirely different scenario to using slaps and taps as a training tool. To routinely incorporate even mild physical corrections into training is not acceptable in light of the fact that it can be done without laying a finger on the dog, with a bit of preparation and training.
And it is not acceptable given that it can really set a dog back when he doesn't know for sure why you're raising your hand near him: is this a friendly gesture, or is he about to get a thwack?
For what it's worth, I know of several dogs who were routinely tapped on the nose with the newspaper: one day, when someone other than the owner picked up the rolled-up paper (not to punish the dog), the dog attacked them, because all the cues were in place to indicate to the dogs that this human is on the attack. Now, I know these are extremes, but they do illustrate what's actually going on in dog's heads when we use taps and slaps as training tools.
On a personal level, my old Westie was in my life before I had much of a clue about training, and yes, I admit it, I was advised by a trainer to tap him with the newspaper when he was bold, and I did it. Years later, long after I knew the error of my ways, I happened to pick up a paper, and rolled it up to kill some flies. My poor Westie almost lost his life, cowering and shivering. This is YEARS after it had last been done to him, and it had never been more than a light tap. The guilt
But again, just goes to show what our dogs think of this form of correction.

ProfanityURL

There's a lot of talk about how these punishments can make dogs nervous but remember that some dogs are also just naturally nervous. I think that mollycoddling dogs can actually make them overly sensitive and nervous. A bit of roughhousing doesn't do a dog any real harm in my opinion.

A good example: My neighbor has two dogs, a lab and a jack russel. He bought them both at the same time as young pups and he set up an electric fence that runs around his property. Not a radio fence, an actual electric fence with just a single cable running about a foot above the ground. When he bough them he brought them both over to the fence and touched a paw of each pup to the cable to give them a small shock. A small shock from a low voltage fence, a shock which he also received when he did it because he was holding the dogs so he could judge how powerful it was. Now years on the dogs are happy out and have loads of space to run around the large garden, but they never try to cross the cable. They're not nervous around it, they come right up to it to greet you when you enter the property but they never cross it. They're both well big enough to jump over it, the lab could just step right over it if he wanted to but that one shock was enough to teach them not to do it. They are very happy dogs and have never got out to my knowledge and are not the least bit nervous. This in my opinion advocates a small amount of pain to teach the dogs a valuable lesson early on that enables them and their owners to enjoy their life together.

planetX

ProfanityURL wrote: »

There's a lot of talk about how these punishments can make dogs nervous but remember that some dogs are also just naturally nervous. I think that mollycoddling dogs can actually make them overly sensitive and nervous. A bit of roughhousing doesn't do a dog any real harm in my opinion.

A good example: My neighbor has two dogs, a lab and a jack russel. He bought them both at the same time as young pups and he set up an electric fence that runs around his property. Not a radio fence, an actual electric fence with just a single cable running about a foot above the ground. When he bough them he brought them both over to the fence and touched a paw of each pup to the cable to give them a small shock. A small shock from a low voltage fence, a shock which he also received when he did it because he was holding the dogs so he could judge how powerful it was. Now years on the dogs are happy out and have loads of space to run around the large garden, but they never try to cross the cable. They're not nervous around it, they come right up to it to greet you when you enter the property but they never cross it. They're both well big enough to jump over it, the lab could just step right over it if he wanted to but that one shock was enough to teach them not to do it. They are very happy dogs and have never got out to my knowledge and are not the least bit nervous. This in my opinion advocates a small amount of pain to teach the dogs a valuable lesson early on that enables them and their owners to enjoy their life together.

Hmm, those must have been very intelligent dogs, most dogs would learn nothing from that except that sometimes my owner takes my paw and hurts it. I guarantee that lesson would have ended badly if it was tried on a fearful dog.

DBB

I'm beginning to wonder are the people who keep rejuvenating this thread with isolated stories of how they know someone who knows someone whose dogs didn't suffer any ill-effects of receiving an electric shock at the boundary, actually reading ANY of the posts that were made throughout the thread warning of what can happen, on a regular basis, when things go wrong.

Isolated exceptions are not good enough to illustrate how electric shock systems can work: the bottom line is this, and it is being conveniently ignored by some here... you can shock your dog to keep him in. But you don't have to. Given that there are safer, more reliable, completely harmless-to-welfare for ALL dogs, ways to contain dogs, it renders any shock-system a lazy, thoughtless way to do the job. Build a damn fence.

The same can be said for any owner who justifies using any form of gear that has to cause pain, startle or aversion in order to work: choke chains, prong collars, remote control collars, spray collars, rolled up newspapers to thwack dog on nose etc etc... nobody denies they can work. But the fact that there are more ethical ways, and more effective ways renders these lazy ways inexcusable, if dog welfare is the top of your priorities.