Qualifying as a Barrister Cost?

Procrastastudy

Would anyone be willing to give me rough idea of cost for the cost of qualifying as a Barrister including deviling and supplies please? I know there are a few threads on this but I'd like to try and collate the information.

I have gathered the following information but would like to check / correct it.

Entrance Exams: €600
BL Course: ~€13,000
Wig and Cape Gown: ~€750?
First Year Law Library Fee: €2,800
Second Year Law Library Fee: ?

(Working in a job where you wear a cape: Priceless!)

Many Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Is there much of a difference in cost between the 1 year FT and the modular course please?

swervring

Can't say I know much about the costs after qualification as I've just started Mod1 - but there is no difference in the fee for the Modular Course and the Full Time course, other than the fact that you pay it over two years instead of one

stringy

infinite amounts!

what's the cost of living while earning no money or very little for the first few years.

In year 2 of the journey, and although it's great, not having much cash isn't!

Procrastastudy

stringy wrote: »

infinite amounts!

what's the cost of living while earning no money or very little for the first few years.

In year 2 of the journey, and although it's great, not having much cash isn't!

To be fair once the education fees stop we can live off my wife's wage. Hopefully I'll be making enough in year 3 to cover the Law Library fee.

ResearchWill

Procrastastudy wrote: »

To be fair once the education fees stop we can live off my wife's wage. Hopefully I'll be making enough in year 3 to cover the Law Library fee.

At the moment even that level of income in year 3 is not guaranteed. While Law Library recently reduced fees, year 3 fees for Dublin based Barrister is about 4k (open to correction on that) insurance about 250 a year. I would say currently there are some in third and 4th year with fee income less than those figures, also remember there is hang over debt from years one and two.

To be clear I'm not saying to anyone don't do it, but at least enter the profession with full knowledge of uphill battle. My own opinion years 1 - 5 expect not to break even. Each year after that expect a profit but unless very lucky same will not exceed 40k a year. If you make it past year 10 expect a good income but the days of serious incomes are gone for most new entrants.

Procrastastudy

I realise this is a how long is a piece of string question but after year ten do income levels become comfortable? I'd define that as around €100K gross.

I'm not really looking to get into it for the money, there are much easier ways to earn a living, but I would like some light at the end of the tunnel.

2rkehij30qtza5

You could always go 'in-house' to get a steady income. Don't expect to make any nonetheless worth talking about for at least 5 years after being called to the Bar.

Procrastastudy

Sandra Colossal Loner wrote: »

You could always go 'in-house' to get a steady income. Don't expect to make any nonetheless worth talking about for at least 5 years after being called to the Bar.

I'm actually hoping some lecturing might eventually come my way. Although I fully realise to do that seriously an expensive LLM or PhD will be in the offing.

ResearchWill

Procrastastudy wrote: »

I realise this is a how long is a piece of string question but after year ten do income levels become comfortable? I'd define that as around €100K gross.

I'm not really looking to get into it for the money, there are much easier ways to earn a living, but I would like some light at the end of the tunnel.

To be honest I would say the amount of barristers currently in year 10 making a pre tax income of €100k a year is very very small, I would not be surprised to learn that the figure most would be on would be around €50 to €75k with a few above and below those figures.

Kosseegan

100k gross at the bar is equivalent to about €50k in the public service.

Tom Young

Ah the delusions!

NoQuarter

Entrance Exams: €600
Manuals: ~€400
BL Course: €13,650
Dining: €1 zillion dollars (no matter how cheap the jaegers are in the KI)
Wig and CAPE: wig:600 cape 150 (only buy a wig for criminal law)
Shirts x4: €150
Studs/tabs: €25
First Year Law Library Fee: €2,800 (includes joining up fee, once off)
Insurance: €150
Second Year Law Library Fee: ~ €1700
Phone: €35 pm

Weeklys: Suits/dry cleaning/lunch/travel/stationary/your soul/etc

Income: None.


(Working in a job where you wear a cape: Priceless!) (catching it on every door handle ever made: not priceless)

galgar

NoQuarter wrote: »

(catching it on every door handle ever made: not priceless)

Potential whiplash

galgar

Or fire extinguishers

NoQuarter

Dont forget about desk corners.

Tom Young

4 shirts. The bang is now explained! ... Sleep dipping for above poster!

that's a joke. From a Mod.

NoQuarter

Tom Young wrote: »

4 shirts. The bang is now explained! ... Sleep dipping for above poster!

that's a joke. From a Mod.

Friday I wear a normal shirt and hope I dont have to go to court. If I do I know the oul "inside out collar trick!

Tom Young

A yes .....

johnnyskeleton

NoQuarter wrote: »

Wig and CAPE: wig:600 cape 150 (only buy a wig for criminal law)

To be honest, it seems to me that even in criminal law most barristers no longer wear the wig. It seems to be dying out across the board, particularly since judges have stopped wearing it.

For a new entrant to the law library, the advice has to be not to buy it. Borrow (if you know any barristers) or rent one for the call, and after a year's practice then decide if you really need one. Odds are, you will have a few friends who bought them out of naievity and who would be happy to sell their wig at half price (based on the 600 quid above, perhaps 300 or less).

ResearchWill wrote: »

To be honest I would say the amount of barristers currently in year 10 making a pre tax income of €100k a year is very very small, I would not be surprised to learn that the figure most would be on would be around €50 to €75k with a few above and below those figures.

Have there been any steps to actually quantify this though? I'm not suggesting that you do it (unless you want to), but surely if we are to have a rational debate on this we need to have some statistics. Otherwise we are left with speculation.

For example, how many cases would one have to complete in a year to get to that level? If we say that an average circuit court case will net €1200-1500, then two a week should give an income of over 100k after expenses and assuming that the occasional case will not pay for some reason. Would that be accurate? So I wonder how many barristers of 10 years standing wouldn't have in or around that level of work to do? I wouldn't have thought that two circuit court cases a week was a particularly heavy workload.

Milk & Honey

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

To be honest, it seems to me that even in criminal law most barristers no longer wear the wig. It seems to be dying out across the board, particularly since judges have stopped wearing it.

For a new entrant to the law library, the advice has to be not to buy it. Borrow (if you know any barristers) or rent one for the call, and after a year's practice then decide if you really need one. Odds are, you will have a few friends who bought them out of naievity and who would be happy to sell their wig at half price (based on the 600 quid above, perhaps 300 or less).



Have there been any steps to actually quantify this though? I'm not suggesting that you do it (unless you want to), but surely if we are to have a rational debate on this we need to have some statistics. Otherwise we are left with speculation.

For example, how many cases would one have to complete in a year to get to that level? If we say that an average circuit court case will net €1200-1500, then two a week should give an income of over 100k after expenses and assuming that the occasional case will not pay for some reason. Would that be accurate? So I wonder how many barristers of 10 years standing wouldn't have in or around that level of work to do? I wouldn't have thought that two circuit court cases a week was a particularly heavy workload.

The courts are closed for several months of the year. There are about 40 sitting weeks. Take outlay of subscription, office, secretarial, travel etc at a modest 25k, about 125k would be needed from 40 weeks work or about 3k a week. To allow for non paying cases and non paying clients a gross of about 5k a week should be the target.
Taking account of double bookings and forced handovers another few cases need to be taken on. About 7 or 8 cases a week would need to be worked on to ensure that 3k a week would come in. The 100k takes no account of pension and this would have to be funded from that. There is no sick pay or maternity benefit either.

ResearchWill

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

To be honest, it seems to me that even in criminal law most barristers no longer wear the wig. It seems to be dying out across the board, particularly since judges have stopped wearing it.

For a new entrant to the law library, the advice has to be not to buy it. Borrow (if you know any barristers) or rent one for the call, and after a year's practice then decide if you really need one. Odds are, you will have a few friends who bought them out of naievity and who would be happy to sell their wig at half price (based on the 600 quid above, perhaps 300 or less).



Have there been any steps to actually quantify this though? I'm not suggesting that you do it (unless you want to), but surely if we are to have a rational debate on this we need to have some statistics. Otherwise we are left with speculation.

For example, how many cases would one have to complete in a year to get to that level? If we say that an average circuit court case will net €1200-1500, then two a week should give an income of over 100k after expenses and assuming that the occasional case will not pay for some reason. Would that be accurate? So I wonder how many barristers of 10 years standing wouldn't have in or around that level of work to do? I wouldn't have thought that two circuit court cases a week was a particularly heavy workload.

The last research done on income was the completion authority back in 2002. The Library did a survey last year have seen no results.

http://www.tca.ie/images/uploaded/documents/Solicitors%20and%20barristers%20full%20report.pdf

Page 28 as you will see lots of changed since then. About 1000 more barristers and PIAB.

In relation to your 2 a week circuit courts PI you forget the courts don't sit for a total of 3 and a bit months. Also the total number of PI cases to PIAB is about 28000, not sure how many settle in PIAB let's say 8000, that leaves 20000 such cases for 2500 barristers do the maths.

johnnyskeleton

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The courts are closed for several months of the year. There are about 40 sitting weeks.

there are 46 sitting weeks. At 1200 per case that's over 110k

Take outlay of subscription, office, secretarial, travel etc at a modest 25k,

I'm not sure that's modest seeing as subscription in just over 5k, a secretary is not essential and travel expenses can vary.

about 125k would be needed from 40 weeks work or about 3k a week. To allow for non paying cases and non paying clients a gross of about 5k a week should be the target.

so you're suggesting that 3/5 cases won't pay, or approximately 40%?

Taking account of double bookings and forced handovers another few cases need to be taken on. About 7 or 8 cases a week would need to be worked on to ensure that 3k a week would come in.

how many cases would have double bookings or handovers if you're only doing 2 cases a week? Plus, while cases do have to be handed over other barristers would have the same problem so what goes around comes around.

The 100k takes no account of pension and this would have to be funded from that. There is no sick pay or maternity benefit either.

same as many other jobs outside the public sector, except for maternity pay.

But let's say that your version is correct and 7/8 cases a week would give an income of 100k, is that an unavhieveable target to reach?

johnnyskeleton

ResearchWill wrote: »

The last research done on income was the completion authority back in 2002. The Library did a survey last year have seen no results.

http://www.tca.ie/images/uploaded/documents/Solicitors%20and%20barristers%20full%20report.pdf

Page 28 as you will see lots of changed since then. About 1000 more barristers and PIAB.

In relation to your 2 a week circuit courts PI you forget the courts don't sit for a total of 3 and a bit months. Also the total number of PI cases to PIAB is about 28000, not sure how many settle in PIAB let's say 8000, that leaves 20000 such cases for 2500 barristers do the maths.

I didn't say PI nor did I forget the court vacations. 46 weeks at 2 cases a week at 1200-1500 is over 100k.

What is your explanation then? I mean you are the one asserting that very few barristers of ten years practice earn 100k.

ResearchWill

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I didn't say PI nor did I forget the court vacations. 46 weeks at 2 cases a week at 1200-1500 is over 100k.

What is your explanation then? I mean you are the one asserting that very few barristers of ten years practice earn 100k.

It is based on personal experience and the experience of people I know who are in years 9 10 and 11. It is based on the CA report in 2002 which said the median income years 10-12 was 95k, that is half barrister above this figure half below. Since 2002 PIAB has effected the number of cases. I am personally in year 9 this month while I have been busy I have only had two trials one criminal one PI. From looking around me on my circuit I'm about average.

johnnyskeleton

ResearchWill wrote: »

It is based on personal experience and the experience of people I know who are in years 9 10 and 11. It is based on the CA report in 2002 which said the median income years 10-12 was 95k, that is half barrister above this figure half below. Since 2002 PIAB has effected the number of cases. I am personally in year 9 this month while I have been busy I have only had two trials one criminal one PI. From looking around me on my circuit I'm about average.

Ok. I'm not disputing your experience although I wasn't aware that work was as thin on the ground as all that.

My central point is that we just don't have any proper statistics by which we can measure average or median earnings at various levels at the bar, so we are left essentially with guestimates as to potential earnings.

ResearchWill

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Ok. I'm not disputing your experience although I wasn't aware that work was as thin on the ground as all that.

My central point is that we just don't have any proper statistics by which we can measure average or median earnings at various levels at the bar, so we are left essentially with guestimates as to potential earnings.

I agree the last stats are 10 years old, the Bar Council did a survey last year but I have seen no results as yet. While I accept that there are Barristers in year 10 making in excess of 100K a year pre tax from my own personal knowledge they are a rare breed. Most at year 9 10 and 11 are making a living and by that i mean a figure between 40 and 90K a year.

johnnyskeleton

ResearchWill wrote: »

I agree the last stats are 10 years old, the Bar Council did a survey last year but I have seen no results as yet.

Curious that they did a survey but no results are published. Maybe I'm cynical, but I assume that if it showed that barristers had very low earnings they would be publishing it in the Irish Times and constantly referring to it.

subrosa

galgar wrote: »

Or fire extinguishers

At least once a week, somehow. No idea how it can happen so often but it does.

ResearchWill

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Curious that they did a survey but no results are published. Maybe I'm cynical, but I assume that if it showed that barristers had very low earnings they would be publishing it in the Irish Times and constantly referring to it.

I think the problem is that most of the younger barristers did not take part in the survey.

But as a aside for the first time in years libray membership has been reduced.

johnnyskeleton

ResearchWill wrote: »

But as a aside for the first time in years libray membership has been reduced.

Again, and sorry to be so cynical, but I wonder if this is the first step in discouraging people to leave and set up chambers?

ResearchWill

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Again, and sorry to be so cynical, but I wonder if this is the first step in discouraging people to leave and set up chambers?

Maybe it is, Im not sure the chambers model would work in Ireland. It can be a very real block on getting a start in the profession. One huge advantage in the profession is that it is possible to start with very low expences and on an even playing pitch. One huge problem with the profession as with any meritocracy, some will make a huge income per year and others very little, the vast majority I know are some where in the middle.

NoQuarter

If the legal services bill goes through, membership fees will rise a lot because the cost of setting up the independent referral guy (or whatever its called) falls to Barristers to pay. That is what we were told starting out.

Milk & Honey

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

there are 46 sitting weeks.

52 weeks in a year. Less:-

Long vacation 9 weeks
Christmas 3
Easter 2
Whit 2

Seems more like 36 weeks to me.

johnnyskeleton

Milk & Honey wrote: »

52 weeks in a year. Less:-

Long vacation 9 weeks
Christmas 3
Easter 2
Whit 2

Seems more like 36 weeks to me.

Whoops. Bit of a miscalculation on my part.

But on your calculation of say 3.5k a week to achieve 100k in a year, what volume of work must a barrister do?

ResearchWill

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Whoops. Bit of a miscalculation on my part.

But on your calculation of say 3.5k a week to achieve 100k in a year, what volume of work must a barrister do?

Lots, you don't take into account the hours of work that a barrister never gets paid for. I for one would be delighted with3.5k a week but that is a very rare week. I have sat in a court for a day work and received as little as sweet f All. It's the business. I know people hear of the big money but it's like the music business or film some make a lot of money others a living and some fall by the way side.

Procrastastudy

I'm very much obliged to you folks, especially rwill and js, for a very illuminating discussion. I have to admit it surprised me that by year ten people are only making a living. That said it hasn't deterred me. Thank you again.

Milk & Honey

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Whoops. Bit of a miscalculation on my part.

But on your calculation of say 3.5k a week to achieve 100k in a year, what volume of work must a barrister do?

It is not a case of having three cases on a Monday that will run through the week and pay up.
In the 36 sitting weeks, on innumerable occasions people turn up with their brief in their hand and find themselves sitting around and then the case is adjourned to another date. Cases are often adjourned at the last minute. There are no foal no fee cases, some of which fail, there are fixed price cases which go on far longer than anticipated and there are cases where payment is never received.
Two cases might be called on simultaneously and one has to be given away. On other occasions a lengthy case starts and there is no judge for any other case for that week. To reach the 100k means that some weeks a lot more than 3.5k must be brought in to compensate for those weeks when a lot less comes in.
There is drafting, attending consultations, writing opinions and advices and dealing with queries, attending interlocutory matters as well as keeping the paying cases going through. Work would need to be done on about 10 cases a week minimum.

ResearchWill

Procrastastudy wrote: »

I'm very much obliged to you folks, especially rwill and js, for a very illuminating discussion. I have to admit it surprised me that by year ten people are only making a living. That said it hasn't deterred me. Thank you again.

No one is saying you won't be a Four Court high flyer earning a million a year. But the reality is that for every guy like that there are a good few earning 1/4 million a year another few on 100k a year and I would guess half if not more earning less than 100k.

No matter how much you earn, after x number of years, you can expect at least 5 and upto 10 years of struggle. Look around the library for every new high powered car there are tens of normal 5 year old fords.

There are if I'm correct about 2700 barristers, how many of them do you hear are on huge money.

As I said no one is putting you off, but don't be surprised when after five years you are earning less than the dole, and after 7 a job in tesco would pay better.

Procrastastudy

ResearchWill wrote: »

No one is saying you won't be a Four Court high flyer earning a million a year. But the reality is that for every guy like that there are a good few earning 1/4 million a year another few on 100k a year and I would guess half if not more earning less than 100k.

No matter how much you earn, after x number of years, you can expect at least 5 and upto 10 years of struggle. Look around the library for every new high powered car there are tens of normal 5 year old fords.

There are if I'm correct about 2700 barristers, how many of them do you hear are on huge money.

As I said no one is putting you off, but don't be surprised when after five years you are earning less than the dole, and after 7 a job in tesco would pay better.

Funny you should mention Tesco! Retailing is my background. frankly I'm epic at it and would pull in a fairly good salary within ten years and around half the study/qualifications. It is just so mind numbingly dull and full of equally dull (intelligence) people, even at higher levels. You'd be amazed what a general manager at Tesco makes.

I dont for one second think you're trying to put me off. I'm very grateful to you for opening my eyes a bit! Given the years a spent managing shops I'm quite happy to sacrifice the money for an interesting and challenging profession. That said I realise there will be grind in anything one does.

ResearchWill

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Funny you should mention Tesco! Retailing is my background. frankly I'm epic at it and would pull in a fairly good salary within ten years and around half the study/qualifications. It is just so mind numbingly dull and full of equally dull (intelligence) people, even at higher levels. You'd be amazed what a general manager at Tesco makes.

I dont for one second think you're trying to put me off. I'm very grateful to you for opening my eyes a bit! Given the years a spent managing shops I'm quite happy to sacrifice the money for an interesting and challenging profession. That said I realise there will be grind in anything one does.

The one huge advantage is the amount of freedom the job gives, so when you are earning a good living you have a good amount of free time, and you can outside of court times work to suit yourself.

Jo King

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

For example, how many cases would one have to complete in a year to get to that level? If we say that an average circuit court case will net €1200-1500, then two a week should give an income of over 100k after expenses and assuming that the occasional case will not pay for some reason. Would that be accurate? So I wonder how many barristers of 10 years standing wouldn't have in or around that level of work to do? I wouldn't have thought that two circuit court cases a week was a particularly heavy workload.

This is the same Johnnyskeleton who said when he was a law student:-

"I will say it again - you can make an income in your first few years - if you get one JR, one trial on indictment or one junior brief in the HC/SC, you will make more money than your fees and your other practise expenses. You won't make much but it is an income, however inferior it may seem to you."


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055070993&page=11


His crystal ball does not seem to be working any better, despite starting to practise. Pity really.

johnnyskeleton

Jo King wrote: »

This is the same Johnnyskeleton who said when he was a law student:-

"I will say it again - you can make an income in your first few years - if you get one JR, one trial on indictment or one junior brief in the HC/SC, you will make more money than your fees and your other practise expenses. You won't make much but it is an income, however inferior it may seem to you."


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055070993&page=11


His crystal ball does not seem to be working any better, despite starting to practise. Pity really.

Who ever said that I:

a. was a law student then?
b. am a practising lawyer now?

But even leaving that aside, are you still disputing that the fees paid to a young barrister for such a kind of case would cover their law library fees, insurance etc?

ResearchWill

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Who ever said that I:

a. was a law student then?
b. am a practising lawyer now?

But even leaving that aside, are you still disputing that the fees paid to a young barrister for such a kind of case would cover their law library fees, insurance etc?

Average income on JR 5k indictment 1.2k average HC brief 2k so over say 2 years 7.2k outgoings library fees and insurance 5.2K pre tax income €1000 a year.

Milk & Honey

ResearchWill wrote: »

Average income on JR 5k indictment 1.2k average HC brief 2k so over say 2 years 7.2k outgoings library fees and insurance 5.2K pre tax income €1000 a year.

How many young barristers are going to be getting those kind of cases? How about:-
District court criminal legal aid split fee €23.
District Court Family €140
County Reg Motion €150?


How about waiting months and even years even to get that money?

ResearchWill

Milk & Honey wrote: »

How many young barristers are going to be getting those kind of cases? How about:-
District court criminal legal aid split fee €23.
District Court Family €140
County Reg Motion €150?


How about waiting months and even years even to get that money?

I totally agree with you, I was putting up the rates for another poster. I do agree the chances of any Barrister in the first two years getting all 3 of the above is very rare, not to mind actully collecting the money. If I remember correctly last year I got a motion fee from my second year down that was 6 years earlier.

johnnyskeleton

This is a bit of a circular argument, reflected by the fact that one poster's only point is to raise an old thread and make some sort of vaguely snide comment about me.

In the absence of statistics, there is no clear guide as to what a young barrister might or might not realistically expect to earn.

Something which, IMO, if it really was as bleak as some posters portray it, would be published by the bar council and trotted out every time any criticism of legal fees arose.

In the absence of same, I feel that the fees paid in medium to large cases are relevant because they demonstrate that the overheads, while significant, are not out of proportion to the fees that a junior counsel can expect to be paid if they are briefed in such as case. As to whether any very junior barrister will be briefed in such cases, this involves a degree of speculation as well. Some will, some won't.

While I admire the sentiment that says give people the bad news first, I don't think it is fair to paint an entirely negative view of the prospects for young barristers.

Some make it, many if not most don't. But to hear some people go on you would think it is an impossible profession to earn a living from. This is contradicted by the sheer numbers of barristers, c. 2300, about half of whom are under ten years call, who are still working as barristers. They can't all be living off nothing.

ResearchWill

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

This is a bit of a circular argument, reflected by the fact that one poster's only point is to raise an old thread and make some sort of vaguely snide comment about me.

In the absence of statistics, there is no clear guide as to what a young barrister might or might not realistically expect to earn.

Something which, IMO, if it really was as bleak as some posters portray it, would be published by the bar council and trotted out every time any criticism of legal fees arose.

In the absence of same, I feel that the fees paid in medium to large cases are relevant because they demonstrate that the overheads, while significant, are not out of proportion to the fees that a junior counsel can expect to be paid if they are briefed in such as case. As to whether any very junior barrister will be briefed in such cases, this involves a degree of speculation as well. Some will, some won't.

While I admire the sentiment that says give people the bad news first, I don't think it is fair to paint an entirely negative view of the prospects for young barristers.

Some make it, many if not most don't. But to hear some people go on you would think it is an impossible profession to earn a living from. This is contradicted by the sheer numbers of barristers, c. 2300, about half of whom are under ten years call, who are still working as barristers. They can't all be living off nothing.

Just so I am clear, it is not impossible to make it at the bar, it's just difficult. If you understand that no matter who you know it will be a number of years before you can stand on your own two feet. My own person view is that upto a few years ago the break point was 5 years that is moving out to 10 years. Agin I'm not saying a person won't have any income during that time, just don't expect to be able to buy a brand new Porsche.

Part of the reason I believe the Bar Council don't give out the figures is that if they do it for the bottom barristers they will be forced to do it for the high earners, who do you think has more power the under 10 years or the guys making serious bucks who want to protect their turf.

The stories of how difficult the bar is go back years I know a barrister who was called at the end of the 60's he was told exactly the same things back then he is still in practice and doing well.

My reason for telling pople how tough it is, is because of the number of people at the bar telling me I never knew it was so hard (there is no reason it should not be hard, no one has a automatic right to a good income) I say did you not listen to which they all reply "I just thought it was to put me off."

johnnyskeleton

RW, I hope you didn't think my comments were directed at you. You give a fairly impartial and realistic view of what young barristers might expect. Some other posters want to paint an absolutely dire picture which I think is unfair.

ResearchWill wrote: »

My reason for telling pople how tough it is, is because of the number of people at the bar telling me I never knew it was so hard (there is no reason it should not be hard, no one has a automatic right to a good income) I say did you not listen to which they all reply "I just thought it was to put me off."

While I appreciate that telling them how tough it is is right, this comment also shows that what prospective barristers need is more than the general caveats and horror stories, and more precise information as to what they are getting themselves into. The trouble is finding a way of accessing that information beyond the level of anecdote.

Brother Psychosis

KI fees: 12560
shirts x 4, collars, tabs, wig gown: 1,300 (from copeland)
first year fees (including joining fee): 3000
insurance 170 p/a
2nd year fees: ~1750
3rd year fees: 2190
4th year fees: ~3800 (so i'm told)

according to a recent article, there are 2361 barristers (321 of those are SC). over half are under 10 years call. 52% are under the age of 40.

one thing that these surveys dont disclose are the numbers dropping out. by year five (and i'm open to correction) I'd say at least 50% have left the bar. there are people in years 4/5/6 with decent practices who are getting better offers outside the bar and leaving.

most of the work is at the top end (10% v 90% argument ) but as those people take silk/go to the bench/retire, that work will have to go somewhere. it certainly takes a long time to earn a decent packet and a lot of the junior bar now have jobs outside of the bar to keep income steady, which was unheard of a few years ago.

there is a living to be made, but its an endurance test. you need to have some alternate source of money, whether that be savings or otherwise at the start.

the bottom line is, as has been pointed out, times were equally tough at the bar in the 80's/60's and various other times yet people still made a living. will the bar ever go back to the financial status of the Celtic Tiger? Doubtful. But even when it was like that, the bar was never a place to make an easy buck. it requires hard work and a passion for the job. if you are good and work hard, the money will come. it may come earlier for some people, but if you can tough it out, you will reap the reward. starting into year three, i find it incredibly daunting but i truly believe (however naievly) that it can work.

its also worth pointing out that the bar council are fully aware of the problems facing the young bar and they are more than helpful with working out alternate arrangements for paying fees

Kosseegan

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Something which, IMO, if it really was as bleak as some posters portray it, would be published by the bar council and trotted out every time any criticism of legal fees arose.

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This is a fallacy. Just because legal fees are criticised does not mean individuals charge a lot. The nature of court work means that a lot of time is wasted by professionals. There is a lot of hanging around courtrooms. This means a full days fee often has to be charged for an hours work with the client getting a bill of thousands of euro for an hour of a court hearing. Expensive time gets wasted for lots of reasons. Individuals as may well not be earning a lot but it doesn't mean that legal fees are not massive.
The way money is made at the bar is by being on panels of large organisations. That way there is a constant stream of similar work, meaning it is in the same courts on the same lists regularly and a number of cases can be handled simultaneously.
A small proportion get into those type of situations. Other than that it is a question of becoming the master of a particular block of work so that the majority of work in that filed of law and or geographical area comes in and a lot of it can be handled.
Without that a practitioner hopping around from one area of law to another and from one geographical location to another is going to have a small income. I have seen barristers sit for hours in the District Court for €25.
I have seen barristers sit for days in the Circuit Court and can't get a case to run despite holding three briefs.

johnnyskeleton

Kosseegan wrote: »

This is a fallacy. Just because legal fees are criticised does not mean individuals charge a lot.

It's a fallacy that the production of these statistics would allow us to have an informed and rational debate as opposed to relying on anecdotes?

Without that a practitioner hopping around from one area of law to another and from one geographical location to another is going to have a small income.

Ok, are you saying categorically that is not possible for a barrister to practice in a number of areas of law and/or a number of geographical locations and also have a reasonable income? Is that really what you are suggesting? Because it is the corollary of your comment.

I have seen barristers sit for hours in the District Court for €25.
I have seen barristers sit for days in the Circuit Court and can't get a case to run despite holding three briefs.

So? Have you also seen barristers sit for a few minutes in court and then leave having earned large amounts of cash? If so, then the low point is not indicative of the mean. If not, then are you suggesting that this is the only type of work available to barristers?