Public Transport may collapse in 2013 says Varadkar

Judgement Day

I never said that they had paid 'sufficient' taxes but that they had paid taxes all their lives - it's hardly their fault that our political overlords have bankrupt the country. Anyway, it's a red herring. Not being an OAP - yet - I'm not even sure of the exact arrangements pertaining to the free travel pass. I presume the restriction on the hours of usage were done away with years ago? If that is the case perhaps that could be introduced again - if what you're worried about is valuable seats being occupied by OAPs. If, however, you think that fleecing pensioners is going to be the saving of CIE or the railways you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

Richard Hillman

They need to get rid of the politically correct routes. Things like the 7 bus running through Blackrock village, which takes 8 minutes to get from the right turn to the shopping centre when it would only be 1 minute if they took the bypass would be helpful. They also need to cut the ridiculous amount of bus stops. Knowing DB they will probably cut busy and profitable services like the 145 and 46A instead.

Or how about not putting TVs on the stairwell of new buses to check if there are seats upstairs

doubletrouble?

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm not even sure of the exact arrangements pertaining to the free travel pass.

again most what you need to know is in the link.
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW40/Pages/2HowdoIqualifyforfreetravel.aspx
again going back to what i said earlier most of the people using public transport for free are not pensioners they are in fact people on some way, shape or form on social welfare.

Hilly Bill

doubletrouble? wrote: »

here is where most of you are mis-informed about the types of people using the so called free passes. most of the people carried for free on public transport using the free passes not pensioners. they are people under 66 using either legit or dodgy social welfare passes with the dodgy ones being on the increase big time. if fact most if not all dogy passes are actually social welfare passes and not the pensioners ones.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/schemes/freetravel/Pages/default.aspx

The amount of winos and junkies with the social welfare pass is unreal.

mickydoomsux

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The amount of winos and junkies with the social welfare pass is unreal.

In the modern caring, sharing Ireland those people are considered "disabled" and are given free travel seemingly to pester other passengers and commit petty crimes on various modes of public transport.

Start charging a couple of quid for each Social Welfare ticket issued and 99% of antisocial behavior on public transport will disappear almost overnight.

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

I never said that they had paid 'sufficient' taxes but that they had paid taxes all their lives - it's hardly their fault that our political overlords have bankrupt the country. Anyway, it's a red herring. Not being an OAP - yet - I'm not even sure of the exact arrangements pertaining to the free travel pass. I presume the restriction on the hours of usage were done away with years ago? If that is the case perhaps that could be introduced again - if what you're worried about is valuable seats being occupied by OAPs. If, however, you think that fleecing pensioners is going to be the saving of CIE or the railways you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

With respect, JD; we know quite well that the contribution paid by the DSP for the travel gotten out of the free travel passes on CIE companies is a fraction of what you and I as fare paying passengers pay. Were First or Stagecoach or Arriva or Virgin to take on CIE routes they won't honour DSP passes as they are today; they may well die laughing at such a deal.

Subvention monies for CIE are down 21% since 2008 yet fuel costs are up by almost 50% in the same time. All this while DSP pass numbers increase and even the great white hope in Luas see their cash-flow nose dive.

Somethings gotta give and somebody's gotta pay for it all. And it ain't gonna be Dr. Leo in his free State Merc :rolleyes:

larchill

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I thought that €36m was to pay for redundancies anyway

No it was just to keep the "lights on"!:D

Jamie2k9

Are people looking into to this to much. We all know it won't be let collapse. I agree that reforms are needed and its a good thing that the funding has being heald but we all know they will get the money at some stage. It will be FG td's who will be moaning that services have being cut and they wonder why. The Goverment have a duity to pay for lines they want kept open ie-Limerick-Ballyb, WRC and possible Limerick J-Clonmel. Just how many million would be saved if they were dropped.

Noel Dempseys Den

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The Goverment have a duity to pay for lines they want kept open ie-Limerick-Ballyb, WRC and possible Limerick J-Clonmel. Just how many million would be saved if they were dropped.

Actually probably fúck all, but let the asshats who were indoctrinated in Donnybrook Poly and Trinners keep thinking that while Daddy's five series is waiting to scoop them up from Nesbitts.

Jamie2k9

Actually probably fúck all, but let the asshats who were indoctrinated in Donnybrook Poly and Trinners keep thinking that while Daddy's five series is waiting to scoop them up from Nesbitts.

Who's great idea was it to rebuild the WRC, whos idea was it to interduce service between Limerick-Dublin via BB that carries 4 people at most per day.

I accept they shouldn't be running to the Gov for money but the Gov must pay for these lines that they want open and if they don't then services should be stopped. IE don't want to operate services on these lines and they would save at least 5 million per year on them.

Noel Dempseys Den

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Who's great idea was it to rebuild the WRC, whos idea was it to interduce service between Limerick-Dublin via BB that carries 4 people at most per day.

Well it wasn't mine and after looking at the pit that is the WRC thread I'm not going there.

I accept they shouldn't be running to the Gov for money but the Gov must pay for these lines that they want open and if they don't then services should be stopped. IE don't want to operate services on these lines and they would save at least 5 million per year on them.

Are those the operating costs? What about costs for replacement services, redundancies, maintenance of the tracks for the mandatory ten year period after closure? It may well happen but it certainly will not be a cost free option to close those lines. All the bus lovin' folks here will need clean jocks handy on the day that those closures will be announced, but it certainly won't be a píss in the bucket towards solving the financial problems of this country.

Jamie2k9

Well it wasn't mine and after looking at the pit that is the WRC thread I'm not going there.

Think that says it all...

Are those the operating costs? What about costs for replacement services, redundancies, maintenance of the tracks for the mandatory ten year period after closure? It may well happen but it certainly will not be a cost free option to close those lines. All the bus loving' folks here will need clean jocks handy on the day that those closures will be announced, but it certainly won't be a píss in the bucket towards solving the financial problems of this country.

Yes they are operating costs?
About 50 million saved over ten years which will far out weight the cost of the above. Why is there a need for replacement services when Limerick-Galway has an expressway bus, Limerick-Dublin has expressway buses. What did people along the line have before it opened?

solving the financial problems of this country.

It will go some way to helping IE get there finances in order. If we all adapted that attitude then we will never get anywhere.

dermo88

Theres nothing like a good old fashioned recession as a solution to solve entrenched elements. CIE just happens to be one of them. In the 1980's, Jim Mitchell managed to pare costs down on the rail side, and Iarnrod Eireann performed quite well on a hairshirt budget. But some policies are just plain mental, and even in a recession. Unfortunately, transport is far down the priority list, which is why its so sh1t in Ireland.

"Lets introduce a congestion charge and increase the fares, and then wonder why business in the city centre is poor'

"Ah shur....the petherol has gone up another 20 percent, another 10 percent on the fares won't hurt them"

'Lets increase fares so we can reward our existing customers with a worse service'

Have you any idea how much hatred, resentment, and questions that invites onto CIE?

Thats always been the CIE way. Meanwhile Tony Tobin appears on Television. Where is his concern for the customer? Non effing existent. It is:

"Our members demand, our members demand, our members demand"

Do you know the reaction I have to people like this? It gives the rest of us a perception of featherbedding. Now do you understand why many of us hate CIE and its unions? Correction, hate is too mild a word. Despise with an incandescent passion. CIE is supposed to bring us to work, not make life even worse. How ironic that a service meant to cater for those earning low pay is so expensive?

Wake up.....wake the effing hell up. Ireland.....paying twice as much for half the service in the boom times. And CIE is the final string to fall in this tasty bubble teapot

The breakup of CIE recommended by the 1981 McKinsey report was a botch job, not that it was a good report (personally I rated it as awful compared to its 1971 counterpart). Its core implementation incomplete - namely the breakup of CIE. Now is the time to finish the job and bury CIE, and have the 3 as stand alone companies.

As for free travel passes, theres a bit too much of the bleeding heart beal bocht mentality. It was a great innovation when it was introduced by Charles Haughey in 1967. But he knew the demographic then had next to nothing and that was the generation that had really suffered with the world wars, depression, etc fare more than the current upcoming crop of baby boomers, who are generally the wealthiest pensioners in the history of mankind. They've taken a hit in the last few years, but my generation the one born after 1970 has got used to the idea that we'll be working till we snuff it.

Naturally, we will get the usual scaremongering of 'what will replace CIE', 'look at Britain', 'Thatcherite', and it would be warranted if Fianna Fail were still in charge, with their tendency to asset strip for their bum buddies at the beer tent in Galway. Fine Gael are generally a bit more honest. Labour are just out for the state sector, and are constant proof of the adage, 'Labour has eff all, and wants to share it with you'.

If it removes waste like Chairman Lynch and that Kenny gomb with his doublespeak, I for one would be happy. If it removed the likes like Tobin, even better.

Of course this post is reactionary. I want the railway system to survive in a more efficient form. I was the buses to survive also. What none of us want, and I'm sure you'll agree is this dysfunctional overpriced carrier (I mean the fares, not the subsidy) to continue existing cosmetically in its current form.

CIE proudly sponsored by the motor confederation of Ireland and the automobile association since 1945. Wurkers, wurkers, uber alles, uber alles, unless you want to work.......

The Irish people hate CIE, hate its unions, hate all that CIE stands for. Its time to get rid of it. Forever and ever, Amen.

And if a strike is provoked, consider it a bonus. Just draft the army in to do the job. A company that proposed a Smart card took ten years to do it. WHY? To give that long Navan knacker Dempsey and his family a crony contract of course.

Varadkar, like Jim Mitchell before him is just trying to clear up a monumental mess left to him by....as usual. Fianna Fail.

gbob

dermo88 wrote: »

Theres nothing like a good old fashioned recession as a solution to solve entrenched elements. CIE just happens to be one of them. In the 1980's, Jim Mitchell managed to pare costs down on the rail side, and Iarnrod Eireann performed quite well on a hairshirt budget. But some policies are just plain mental, and even in a recession. Unfortunately, transport is far down the priority list, which is why its so sh1t in Ireland.

"Lets introduce a congestion charge and increase the fares, and then wonder why business in the city centre is poor'

"Ah shur....the petherol has gone up another 20 percent, another 10 percent on the fares won't hurt them"

'Lets increase fares so we can reward our existing customers with a worse service'

Have you any idea how much hatred, resentment, and questions that invites onto CIE?

Thats always been the CIE way. Meanwhile Tony Tobin appears on Television. Where is his concern for the customer? Non effing existent. It is:

"Our members demand, our members demand, our members demand"

Do you know the reaction I have to people like this? It gives the rest of us a perception of featherbedding. Now do you understand why many of us hate CIE and its unions? Correction, hate is too mild a word. Despise with an incandescent passion. CIE is supposed to bring us to work, not make life even worse. How ironic that a service meant to cater for those earning low pay is so expensive?

Wake up.....wake the effing hell up. Ireland.....paying twice as much for half the service in the boom times. And CIE is the final string to fall in this tasty bubble teapot

The breakup of CIE recommended by the 1981 McKinsey report was a botch job, not that it was a good report (personally I rated it as awful compared to its 1971 counterpart). Its core implementation incomplete - namely the breakup of CIE. Now is the time to finish the job and bury CIE, and have the 3 as stand alone companies.

As for free travel passes, theres a bit too much of the bleeding heart beal bocht mentality. It was a great innovation when it was introduced by Charles Haughey in 1967. But he knew the demographic then had next to nothing and that was the generation that had really suffered with the world wars, depression, etc fare more than the current upcoming crop of baby boomers, who are generally the wealthiest pensioners in the history of mankind. They've taken a hit in the last few years, but my generation the one born after 1970 has got used to the idea that we'll be working till we snuff it.

Naturally, we will get the usual scaremongering of 'what will replace CIE', 'look at Britain', 'Thatcherite', and it would be warranted if Fianna Fail were still in charge, with their tendency to asset strip for their bum buddies at the beer tent in Galway. Fine Gael are generally a bit more honest. Labour are just out for the state sector, and are constant proof of the adage, 'Labour has eff all, and wants to share it with you'.

If it removes waste like Chairman Lynch and that Kenny gomb with his doublespeak, I for one would be happy. If it removed the likes like Tobin, even better.

Of course this post is reactionary. I want the railway system to survive in a more efficient form. I was the buses to survive also. What none of us want, and I'm sure you'll agree is this dysfunctional overpriced carrier (I mean the fares, not the subsidy) to continue existing cosmetically in its current form.

CIE proudly sponsored by the motor confederation of Ireland and the automobile association since 1945. Wurkers, wurkers, uber alles, uber alles, unless you want to work.......

The Irish people hate CIE, hate its unions, hate all that CIE stands for. Its time to get rid of it. Forever and ever, Amen.

And if a strike is provoked, consider it a bonus. Just draft the army in to do the job. A company that proposed a Smart card took ten years to do it. WHY? To give that long Navan knacker Dempsey and his family a crony contract of course.

Varadkar, like Jim Mitchell before him is just trying to clear up a monumental mess left to him by....as usual. Fianna Fail.

Even as a CIE employee I find it hard to disagree with you

dowlingm

I doubt there will be much enthusiasm to break up CIE if it means drama over pensions and the like.

dermo88

dowlingm

I doubt there will be much enthusiasm to break up CIE if it means drama over pensions and the like.

I'll defend some of the workers, because I know it had long unsociable hours, depended on overtime to get a living wage for starters, although it was a better wage than most out there at the time. So the pensions are generally deserved.

There is also the issue of the Fuel Duty Rebate, so we have the mental case of a company getting a subsidy and paying tax, a situation which is Robbing Peter to Pay Paul who will pay Pet. I also have a grave dislike for a Nationally owned bus company competing with a nationally owned railway company on the same routes, such as Dublin-Waterford/Galway/Rosslare. To me thats a policy that makes no sense. The railway should be used to the best of its ability, and that has never happened until recently in Ireland. Finally, the recent move towards peak and off peak fares, internet booking and more besides is a welcome, and long overdue innovation.

murphaph

Judgement Day wrote: »

Quite apart from the fact that most OAPs have paid taxes all their working lives and thus are entitled to their 'free' passes

Pensioners in Germany have paid a damn sight more taxes throughout their working lives and get no free travel pass JD. They get a (ca. 25%) discount in Berlin and most cities, but there's no free travel nationwide under any scheme.

The state has dished out free passes like confetti at a wedding. There is a real cost associated with them, but nobody has a fecking clue what it is.

As Alek often reminds us, translink told the dept. to take a running jump when asked to accept our "bits of paper" travel passes on their system as they know how much it costs and can recoup said costs from government up there.

corktina

it's not just the free passes I have an issue with. It's the ease with which they can be got and the asuse of them

as an example my wifes friend (who is an OAP but who is still working full time and also has an HSE pension) has a free tavel pass which entitles her not only to free travel but also to take a companion...so she takes my wife off to the city shopping.

what we need are benefits to undergo the dreaded Means Test and for there to be a lot more Inspectors appointed with a remit to root out all the abuses; they would pay for themselves many times over.

murphaph

The DSP should have nothing to do with travel passes per se.

They should only issue photo ID cards to state you are unemployed, disabled or whatever and then you go and buy a reduced price travel pass from a machine and in order for it to be valid, it has to be shown with the prerequisite ID card. In Germany the degree of disability would determine your reduction or if you are entitled to a "partner ticket" (note: partner ticket, not a separate ticket for the partner!) if you need a partner to help you get around.

If you're caught on a reduced price ticket without ID, it's the same as fare evasion and the standard fare is levied. That's how it's done in Germany. All machines sell reduced price tickets for those entitled to use them.

It's a lot cheaper for transport companies to do random ticket checks to enforce compliance than hiring a load of means testers etc. in the DSP.

The_Wrecker

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The amount of winos and junkies with the social welfare pass is unreal.

Its worse than many think.
The latest were seeing on the NCR is Grab a Granny. Befriend an OAP at the stop for several minutes then bring up the companion wording on their pass and get them to claim your with them. It worked great for a long time, but some of the junkies are getting more pushy and direct with the old folk.
This is to brought up by unions very soon with managers.

foggy_lad

doubletrouble? wrote: »

again most what you need to know is in the link.
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW40/Pages/2HowdoIqualifyforfreetravel.aspx
again going back to what i said earlier most of the people using public transport for free are not pensioners they are in fact people on some way, shape or form on social welfare.

By social welfare you mean invalidity pension or disability payment? Blind pension etc are also covered. Many of the new passes are issued to "carers".

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The amount of winos and junkies with the social welfare pass is unreal.

Could people with certain proscribed mental illnesses be barred from having free travel because of their behaviour on public transport? Many people who have got serious brain injuries from car crashes and other accidents end up being described as junkies or alco's because brain injury can often affect your sense of social responsibility.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

In the modern caring, sharing Ireland those people are considered "disabled" and are given free travel seemingly to pester other passengers and commit petty crimes on various modes of public transport.

Start charging a couple of quid for each Social Welfare ticket issued and 99% of antisocial behavior on public transport will disappear almost overnight.

most of these people don't have the couple of quid to spend.

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Its worse than many think.
The latest were seeing on the NCR is Grab a Granny. Befriend an OAP at the stop for several minutes then bring up the companion wording on their pass and get them to claim your with them. It worked great for a long time, but some of the junkies are getting more pushy and direct with the old folk.
This is to brought up by unions very soon with managers.

Indeed this will be a problem for those who have never been diagnosed as mentally I'll or disabled through mental illness so they must find some other way of getting a free ride.

dowlingm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Could people with certain proscribed mental illnesses be barred from having free travel because of their behaviour on public transport? Many people who have got serious brain injuries from car crashes and other accidents end up being described as junkies or alco's because brain injury can often affect your sense of social responsibility.

How do those people get from A to B then?

gbob

dowlingm wrote: »

How do those people get from A to B then?

I would completely support the free travel scheme for those that qualify, and that should include all pensioners. But there are a huge number of those that should and do qualify that shouldn't be permitted to travel unaccompanied on public transport due to their behaviour, there are some that are a danger to themselves and others. And how they get from A to B should be supervised.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Who's great idea was it to rebuild the WRC, whos idea was it to interduce service between Limerick-Dublin via BB that carries 4 people at most per day.

agree, it should have been ran as a shuttle service to and from cork dublin/direct tralee services.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

IE don't want to operate services on these lines

IE don't want to operate services on any line

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

they would save at least 5 million per year on them.

doubt it to be honest

Jamie2k9

doubt it to be honest

Limerick-Bally is loosing around 1.5 million per year, expect Limerick J-Clonmel and WRC are losing the same if not more.

IE don't want to operate services on any line

That may be true but at least most other lines are not making such losses and are somewhat more viable that the ones the Government want kept open and won't pay for them.

These lines are a black hole for IE but they closed Waterford-Rosslare line which carried more passengers than Limerick-BallyB and I think the average on the WRC is 20 passengers per train and Waterford-Rosslare had 25 at least.

agree, it should have been ran as a shuttle service to and from cork Dublin/direct tralee services.

True but I would be in favour of it being dropped as it still would only carry 4 passengers on the Branch line and continue to make losses.

We will see Galway, Waterford, Westport etc see cuts next year and because of politics this morning service will still run and it will continue to cost them more to operate than any other scheduled service they cut.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

By social welfare you mean invalidity pension or disability payment? Blind pension etc are also covered. Many of the new passes are issued to "carers".

Could people with certain proscribed mental illnesses be barred from having free travel because of their behaviour on public transport? Many people who have got serious brain injuries from car crashes and other accidents end up being described as junkies or alco's because brain injury can often affect your sense of social responsibility.

most of these people don't have the couple of quid to spend.

Indeed this will be a problem for those who have never been diagnosed as mentally I'll or disabled through mental illness so they must find some other way of getting a free ride.

Foggy, if they have enough money to buy 8 cans of cider and their gear then they enough money to pay €4.70 on the dart and should not be allowed a travel pass. The bag of cans and the red face gives the game away Foggy.

Anyone with a mental illness which makes them a danger to the public should not be allowed out on their own.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Limerick-Bally is loosing around 1.5 million per year, expect Limerick J-Clonmel and WRC are losing the same if not more.

probably, i really don't know, i wouldn't trust IE'S figures as far as i could throw them, we all agree the WRC shouldn't have been rebuilt, however limerick-waterford along with limerick ballybroaphy will close to pay for it and rosslare waterford closed to pay for it, if either section or both sections weren't viable either rosslare waterford, limerick waterford, or both would have closed the day the last beat train ran or would have been down-graded to a freight line, won't matter as the lifting train will be along soon to make sure rosslare waterford can never be reopened and limerick waterford will be shut and lifted to make sure it won't ever reopen.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

That may be true but at least most other lines are not making such losses and are somewhat more viable that the ones the Government want kept open and won't pay for them.

again maybe, but if IE plod along like nothings happening that may all change.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

These lines are a black hole for IE but they closed Waterford-Rosslare line which carried more passengers than Limerick-BallyB and I think the average on the WRC is 20 passengers per train and Waterford-Rosslare had 25 at least.

that was because it was in county wexford, CIE/IE don't like wexford, why do you think their trying to bastardise rosslare port?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

True but I would be in favour of it being dropped as it still would only carry 4 passengers on the Branch line and continue to make losses.

i don't know, had all the investment it got and the work done on it been done properly with a shuttle service from cork and direct tralee services and been promoted with reasonable fairs it might have attracted more people, doesn't matter now as it will be shut and lifted.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

We will see Galway, Waterford, Westport etc see cuts next year and because of politics this morning service will still run and it will continue to cost them more to operate than any other scheduled service they cut.

i agree, the direct service should be stopped with immediat effect.

Jamie2k9

probably, i really don't know, i wouldn't trust IE'S figures as far as i could throw them, we all agree the WRC shouldn't have been rebuilt, however limerick-waterford along with limerick ballybroaphy will close to pay for it and rosslare waterford closed to pay for it, if either section or both sections weren't viable either rosslare waterford, limerick waterford, or both would have closed the day the last beat train ran or would have been down-graded to a freight line, won't matter as the lifting train will be along soon to make sure rosslare waterford can never be reopened and limerick waterford will be shut and lifted to make sure it won't ever reopen.

I would say the figures are correct and I'm sure Rail Users Ireland would back them up.

again maybe, but if IE plod along like nothings happening that may all change

Well the improvments coming to Intercity service times from Heuston are a welcomed move and I hope they pay off and more passengers use the trains. It took a long time for the penny to drop but at leat they now realise there current intercity are not to an intercity standred.

i don't know, had all the investment it got and the work done on it been done properly with a shuttle service from cork and direct tralee services and been promoted with reasonable fairs it might have attracted more people, doesn't matter now as it will be shut and lifted.

€9.99 fares to Dublin don't seem to be appealing to people so just how low do they need to go for people. Take Waterford services the €9.99 fares have imporved passengers from there IMO as the trains seem bussier than this time last year. I don't have official figures to back it up but somebody here may be able to back it up.

ProudDUB

Judgement Day wrote: »

If, however, you think that fleecing pensioners is going to be the saving of CIE or the railways you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

Since when has asking a passenger on a bus/train/taxi/plane to pay the fare to get them from A to B in been considered "fleecing"? Yesterday, I flew from NYC to Dublin. Was the fare 50p? Was it free? Nope. I wish it was. I paid the going rate at the time, as I could afford to do so. That does not mean that I was "fleeced".

By all means, give people of limited means a break when it comes to transport, but means test the damm thing. Make people who can pay their own way, pay their own way. Giving public transport away for free willy nilly to anyone who is qualified by nothing more than their age is ridiculous.

We are a tiny, sparsely populated, damm near bankrupt country on the arse end of Europe. We do not have, nor will we ever have the revenue streams that come from having lots of natural resources, heavy manufacturing and goods industries, or the tax generating revenue of a large population base. The amount of $hit that we just give away for free, and that people seem to expect for free just needs to stop, and some good old fashioned maths and common sense applied, not just to this issue, but every where. You can not get Job Seekers Allowance unless you can pass a means test. Why not apply check and balances like that to the freebie travel passes too....as well as child allowance, medical cards, JSA etc etc? It's only good fiscal common sense !

Judgement Day

Like other posters here you seem to be under the illusion that our railways/buses etc. are stuffed with rich pensioners with free travel - having travelled on public transport here for more than forty years I have never seen much evidence of this. The OAP passes issue is another red herring set to turn gullible people against each other in much the same was as a wedge is being driven between those working in the public and private sectors. Who profits from this - fat cats, union bosses and grubby politicians. Play their game if you want to but I'm not.