What will it take to get you out on the street protesting?

MagicSean

Winston Payne wrote: »

Mass popular protest without the leverage of violence is finished as a means of change in western democracies.

Change by way of violence is the most undemocratic process there is.

Monty Burnz

Larbre34 wrote: »

What an idiotic comment, if the budget was balanced in one fell swoop it would close every school, hospital, clinic, advice centre, garda station, fire station, library, museum, park, leisure centre, tourist attraction, prison, army base, and end every community welfare, district nurse, home help and social worker service in the country

Some people seem to be brainwashed into thinking the 'public sector' is a sink hole of bureaucracy for every cent of taxes but don't equate that to the services and amenities they use and rely on every single day

Its not the public spending that bankrupted the country, it was the evaporation of a €20 billion tax stream built on a house of cards that caused massive inflation and profligacy, all traceable back to the reckless economic policies of Ahern and McCreevy. The bank debt is just an added millstone

We're back to year 1999 living standards not 1949 or even the stone age as some would have you believe.

As for a march to get me out? one against ignorance and red herrings

Right, so your idea is that we keep borrowing money from....whom?...while throwing the EU/IMF deal back in their faces?

MagicSean

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Why does everyone assume we're broke because of the banks? The banks could never have gone bust and we'd still be in the midst of incredible austerity because we need to borrow 20b+ per annum to keep the country running.


The banks? Back to the pub with ye.

Because a large amount of the country is completely ignorant of most things that don't concern them on a daily basis. They even had to introduce a module in Junior Cert to teach kids how the country works because their parents are too oblivious to do it. Most peoples understanding of Irish law is based on CSI and Law and Order ffs. Many people don't even understand the difference between liabilities and expenses when it comes to finances.

cosbloodymick

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Right, so your idea is that we keep borrowing money from....whom?...while throwing the EU/IMF deal back in their faces?

Exactly. Unless the EU/IMF deal is not restructured then this country is going to have to renege on its debt as it is unsustainable.
The debt is the biggest issue we have and until that is dealt with this economy will continue to struggle.
You ask who will lend to us? Investors lend when they think they will get a return on thier money. They have not been prepared to lend to Ireland over the last few years because we cannot pay back what we already owe never mind anything extra.
If that massive overhanging debt was not there investors would lend to us because they would know that they would get there money back.
This is what happenned in Iceland. They had a referendum in which the peole voted not to pay back private banking debt so they reneged on it despite them being told the same drivel being spouted to us now that no one will ever lend to them again and being put under massive pressure by the British and Dutch governments who wanted their investors refunded.
Well guess who is borrowing on the international markets now and who isn't.

Monty Burnz

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Exactly. Unless the EU/IMF deal is not restructured then this country is going to have to renege on its debt as it is unsustainable.
The debt is the biggest issue we have and until that is dealt with this economy will continue to struggle.
You ask who will lend to us? Investors lend when they think they will get a return on thier money. They have not been prepared to lend to Ireland over the last few years because we cannot pay back what we already owe never mind anything extra.
If that massive overhanging debt was not there investors would lend to us because they would know that they would get there money back.
This is what happenned in Iceland. They had a referendum in which the peole voted not to pay back private banking debt so they reneged on it despite them being told the same drivel being spouted to us now that no one will ever lend to them again and being put under massive pressure by the British and Dutch governments who wanted their investors refunded.
Well guess who is borrowing on the international markets now and who isn't.

So you think that we would be able to borrow at economic rates despite defaulting on our debts and running a 12% (or whatever it is today) current account deficit? Fantasy land.

Iceland is still pretty pretty f*cked, by the way.

cosbloodymick

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Why does everyone assume we're broke because of the banks? The banks could never have gone bust and we'd still be in the midst of incredible austerity because we need to borrow 20b+ per annum to keep the country running.


The banks? Back to the pub with ye.

Because we are broke as a result of overlending and overborrowing fuelled by banks and the subsequent decision to offer a blanket guarantee. Thats what caused the problem. The budget deficit is a result of a collapse in economic activity as a result of the economic crash. You are assuming that the budget deficit happened because we were spending more than we had. But we were running budget surplusses throughout the Celtic Tiger era
And its the degree of austerity that has to be enforced. If it were not for the banking debts our economy would not have to suffer such draconian cuts. Of course we would have to balance our books but its the level of austerity that is being enforced thats killing the economy. Its like as if the medicine is killing the patient because he's taking too much of it.

cosbloodymick

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So you think that we would be able to borrow at economic rates despite defaulting on our debts and running a 12% (or whatever it is today) current account deficit? Fantasy land.

Iceland is still pretty pretty f*cked, by the way.

Name one country that defaulted on its debts and was not subsequently able to borrow.

Iceland has less than half our unemployment rate, its 7%. Their economy is growing at around 3% per annum and it can borrow on the international market. Compare that to the downward spiral we are in.

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer we got a deal on the banking debt and could work our way out of the problem, but if we don't get a restructure Ireland will default because the size of the debt is unsustainable!

Monty Burnz

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Name one country that defaulted on its debts and was not subsequently able to borrow.

It's not a question of being able to borrow, it's a question of being able to borrow at economic rates. When our bond yields hit 6% we were goosed - and nobody is going to lend to us in your post-bankruptcy scenario at a rate lower than that.

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Iceland has less than half our unemployment rate, its 7%. Their economy is growing at around 3% per annum and it can borrow on the international market. Compare that to the downward spiral we are in.

Iceland also has its own currency which has collapsed, making them more competitive but - of course - a lot poorer.

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer we got a deal on the banking debt and could work our way out of the problem, but if we don't get a restructure Ireland will default because the size of the debt is unsustainable!

Yeah, I think you may well be right.

Madam_X

What will it take to get YOU protesting OP? Always the other guys eh?

ilovesleep

Piliger wrote: »

marching in the streets demanding HIGHER spending

Where did we march in the streets demanding higher spending? When did we do that? What street were we marching on? Was it perhaps outside the Dail on budget days chanting - GIVE US MORE?

Piliger wrote: »

Yep - kicking the arse of any politician who said we should cut back

Whose arse did we kick?

Charlie McGreevy, when finance minister wanted to do some cutbacks in the early 00's. Charlie McGreevy was kicked in the arse out the door to Europe. Not by us, but by the taoiseach.

It was reported last year, that Brian Cowen as finance minister wanted to cut back too but he was ordered from taoiseach not to. I'll see if I can root it up now.

Piliger wrote: »

demanding that the banks lend us money we couldn't afford to pay back, to buy houses that were transparently over priced.

How did people demand that the banks lend people money that people couldn't afford to pay back?

If people couldn't afford to pay back whatever loans they wanted, why did the banks lend to them?

House prices were overpriced. Yes - I saw that and more too and didn't buy and didn't live a life on credit. People are only responsible for their own finances and nobody elses. How was I or you responsible for other peoples finances? If your neighbour felt that he/she was capable for such a commitment, who were we to stop them? We could offer advice and our opinion but at the end of the day it is their decision. How did we demand that the banks lend them money?

Monty Burnz

ilovesleep wrote: »

How did people demand that the banks lend people money that people couldn't afford to pay back?

By falsifying payslips, pretending bonuses were part of regular earnings, by borrowing the deposit from the credit union instead of saving for it - that sort of thing.

bluecode

Lando Griffin wrote: »

We are only bringing in 75000 PA now with all the cuts.
When you take out my mortgage of 1400 and other utility bills we have only 109 euro left for my unemployed wife, unemployed genius eldest son and two other poor starving children.
How can this be?
If Sky put up there prices anymore for HD + Multiroom the will have to eat unbranded products.
7 years ago when we moved into a modest well located semi d who would have thought it impossible to rent out our holiday apt in Bulgaria.
We cannot afford to put Calgon in the dishwasher every day now and it broke down.
My mother drove 40 miles to wash the dishes that day.
Who would have thought it would take nearly 120 euro a Week to fill my SUV.
Ihave started the tipping point all ready writing letters on ordinary paper since we ran out of the Belveder note paper.

While that's very funny and a nice dig at poor mouth Garda Sergeant's wife. But I read a very good point on that subject by a journalist in one of the papers. The fact of the matter is people are struggling and she has done them no favours with her lobbying because it allows people to dismiss the real hardship some people are suffering right now.

So what will get people on the streets? Probably it's when the government finally faces up to the facts that the Croke Park agreement is not working and that real cuts will have to be made to the pay and pensions of the public service workers in order to please our masters in Berlin. As the public service is heavily unionised. That's where the flashpoint will happen. That's the reason FF negotiated the deal. They were desperate to avoid massive unrest in the PS. That's also why the current government refuse to make the decisions they need to.

Once the PS start to take the real cuts. That's the flashpoint. Strikes, walkouts, marches. Once you have mass protests there are always people ready to start violence.

Right now the only people being really hit by austerity are those on low pay, the poor but mostly people who are not organised. Private sector unions lack the strength. Most of the big private sector companies are non union anyway.

The end of the Croke park agreement will be the moment.

tayto lover

MagicSean wrote: »

Change by way of violence is the most undemocratic process there is.

The Yanks don't seem to care though.

HellFireClub

bluecode wrote: »

While that's very funny and a nice dig at poor mouth Garda Sergeant's wife. But I read a very good point on that subject by a journalist in one of the papers. The fact of the matter is people are struggling and she has done them no favours with her lobbying because it allows people to dismiss the real hardship some people are suffering right now.

So what will get people on the streets? Probably it's when the government finally faces up to the facts that the Croke Park agreement is not working and that real cuts will have to be made to the pay and pensions of the public service workers in order to please our masters in Berlin. As the public service is heavily unionised. That's where the flashpoint will happen. That's the reason FF negotiated the deal. They were desperate to avoid massive unrest in the PS. That's also why the current government refuse to make the decisions they need to.

Once the PS start to take the real cuts. That's the flashpoint. Strikes, walkouts, marches. Once you have mass protests there are always people ready to start violence.

Right now the only people being really hit by austerity are those on low pay, the poor but mostly people who are not organised. Private sector unions lack the strength. Most of the big private sector companies are non union anyway.

The end of the Croke park agreement will be the moment.

But there will be ZERO public support for any protests, strikes, whingeing or moaning from the Irish public sector. The perception already, is that they are largely a constituency of spoilt brats who are trying to selfishly hold a gun to the head of the nation, at a time when we simply have not got the cash to be entertaining their irrational demands.

The Croke Park Deal will be cut short but I can't see any protests following on from that, the public, larely made up of private sector workers/unemployed people, is simply in no mood for that sort of shíte at the moment.

Monty Burnz

HellFireClub wrote: »

But there will be ZERO public support for any protests, strikes, whingeing or moaning from the Irish public sector. The perception already, is that they are largely a constituency of spoilt brats who are trying to selfishly hold a gun to the head of the nation, at a time when we simply have not got the cash to be entertaining their irrational demands.

The Croke Park Deal will be cut short but I can't see any protests following on from that, the public, larely made up of private sector workers/unemployed people, is simply in no mood for that sort of shíte at the moment.

There will still be plenty of strikes and protests from the PS folks though - and they do form a very large minority of the workforce.

HellFireClub

Monty Burnz wrote: »

There will still be plenty of strikes and protests from the PS folks though - and they do form a very large minority of the workforce.

They will be short lived, and the only violence I can see breaking out will be them being attacked as they picket by people in the private sector who have been pushed past their breaking point a year ago, seeing people on high salaries, 50K and the rest of it a year, protesting and demanding more pay.

The people who should be protesting in this country simple are not organised, and those that should be keeping their heads down and being grateful for what they have: (1) well paid public sector job (2) automatic increments (3) jobs for life, should shut up about what they will do when the unsustainable Croke Park con job gets thrown into the bin where it belongs.

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

They will be short lived, and the only violence I can see breaking out will be them being attacked as they picket by people in the private sector who have been pushed past their breaking point a year ago, seeing people on high salaries, 50K and the rest of it a year, protesting and demanding more pay.

The people who should be protesting in this country simple are not organised, and those that should be keeping their heads down and being grateful for what they have: (1) well paid public sector job (2) automatic increments (3) jobs for life, should shut up about what they will do when the unsustainable Croke Park con job gets thrown into the bin where it belongs.

I think there is a lot of silly talk going on here.
Anyone in the Public Service be they nurses, teachers, garda, firemen, army etc etc are in no position as far as i can see to take further cuts. Many of them seem to be on the breadline themselves if threads like this are anything to go by. The professions i have named are not the top earners either and are put to the pin of their collar trying to pay bills.
Only a fool would think that there would be no strikes or trouble.
They have numbers of up to 300,000 workers and that is a massive amount.
If the teachers, garda, firemen, nurses and army were to stay out of work for only one day the country would be up s*** creek without a paddle.
AND the Govt know this.

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

I think there is a lot of silly talk going on here.
Anyone in the Public Service be they nurses, teachers, garda, firemen, army etc etc are in no position as far as i can see to take further cuts. Many of them seem to be on the breadline themselves if threads like this are anything to go by. The professions i have named are not the top earners either and are put to the pin of their collar trying to pay bills.
Only a fool would think that there would be no strikes or trouble.
They have numbers of up to 300,000 workers and that is a massive amount.
If the teachers, garda, firemen, nurses and army were to stay out of work for only one day the country would be up s*** creek without a paddle.
AND the Govt know this.

How are people like Garda Sergeants, Teachers, Firemen, HSE Paramedics, middle ranking Civil Servants, many who have been in the job 10-15 years or more now and are easily on 50K plus salaries, if not substantially more, how on earth are they on the breadline???

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

How are people like Garda Sergeants, Teachers, Firemen, HSE Paramedics, middle ranking Civil Servants, many who have been in the job 10-15 years or more now and are easily on 50K plus salaries, if not substantially more, how on earth are they on the breadline???

From reading posts on Boards they have fairly big mortgages, education costs, car and health insurance expenses, heat and lighting bills etc.
If you have a wage of 60k then you would be lucky to take home 30k after all the taxes and levies and then you would have to pay off loans as well as the above bills. It's not hard to spend it if you have 3/4 kids i'd imagine.

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

From reading posts on Boards they have fairly big mortgages, education costs, car and health insurance expenses, heat and lighting bills etc.
If you have a wage of 60k then you would be lucky to take home 30k after all the taxes and levies and then you would have to pay off loans as well as the above bills. It's not hard to spend it if you have 3/4 kids i'd imagine.

And what makes you think that people in the private sector who have had to take pay cuts, or worse again, have taken the ultimate pay cut and lost their job, what makes you think that these people also haven't had to take adjustments, don't also have big mortgages, car loans, education costs, and all the other expenses?

Why should one sector of society, by virtue of their employer being the Irish state, (which is broke by the way), be completely protected from this austerity that we are being told we have to take on, while the rest of us have to learn to live on less???

TURRICAN

connundrum wrote: »

There will be some/all sarcastic answers considering the forum, but in considering all of the events up to now which have caused disquiet, I was wondering what it would take to get a sizeable number of people out in the streets protesting.

My favourite phrase of recent weeks has been 'We can't take much more, someone will have to stand up'. If everyone trots out this phrase, who will stand up?

It would seem that interest groups i.e. the IFA, home carers are well able to organise and protest against specific injustices, but is it that we as a nation are just pissed off in general, and sure, how can you protest against being pissed off?

My real answer is: the new household charge (when it is announced), another interest hike by AIB, more judgements like the one seen here.

My AH answer: Angela Merkel visiting for 6 hours, if/when Jacobs cease production of Fig Rolls, atari jaguar.

A level headed person with good organisation qualities.
Please forward cv to boards.
Thank you.

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

And what makes you think that people in the private sector who have had to take pay cuts, or worse again, have taken the ultimate pay cut and lost their job, what makes you think that these people also haven't had to take adjustments, don't also have big mortgages, car loans, education costs, and all the other expenses?

Why should one sector of society, by virtue of their employer being the Irish state, (which is broke by the way), be completely protected from this austerity that we are being told we have to take on, while the rest of us have to learn to live on less???

You mentioned the Private Sector here, not me. I answered your question.

BUT I worked in the Private Sector and wages of 60k plus were/are quite common as i'd say you well know.

HIB

A lot of people on here are saying that protesting doesn't work. From what I see.... it does, for the very select minority who protest.

When the government proposed cuts to medical cards, the old age pensioners protested in force and stopped it.
When they threatened to reintroduce university fees, the students protested and the proposals were significantly reduced. I honestly think we would have full blown fees, with a student loan system by now, if the students unions hadn't made such a fuss. Maybe we will in the future anyway, but at the very least they have delayed it.
Recently, the threatened cuts to disability services were reversed after a comparatively small group of people (I think < 100, but I'm open to correction) protested overnight outside the Dail.

I'm not saying this kind of small scale protest by small groups is good for the country, but it does achieve results.

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

You mentioned the Private Sector here, not me. I answered your question.

BUT I worked in the Private Sector and wages of 60k plus were/are quite common as i'd say you well know.

They are in their shíte, I don't know one person in the private sector on that kind of money now.

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

They are in their shíte, I don't know one person in the private sector on that kind of money now.

Loads are.

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

Loads are.

And what kind of jobs are these people doing?

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

And what kind of jobs are these people doing?

Not going to mention specifics but a local brewery pays that kind of money.
Worked in one myself and got that before retiring a few years ago.

2ndcoming

HellFireClub wrote: »

They are in their shíte, I don't know one person in the private sector on that kind of money now.

And here in lies the major flaw in your arguments. How many people do you know that work for IBM, Google, Intel, Hewlett Packard, Facebook, IFS Statestreet, Accenture, Pfizer, Ebay, FBD, BOI the list goes on and on and on. The private sector by its nature is impossible to quantify so you can only go off the people who you KNOW how much they earn, which as far as I can tell could only really be yourself.

However the Indo and the Daily Mail are waiting there to skew publicly available figures, usually old ones at that, to their own agenda and make the villain "the public sector".

The grades you've spoken about on 50 or 60k a year haven't striked at all as far as I know, and it wouldn't make much of a difference if they did. It's the grades on 20-30k that could if they are cut, and would cause chaos by doing so, as they're the ones who keep the country ticking over as it is, just like the Passport office staff a couple of years ago. Throw in the Social Welfare staff and An Post and it would cause chaos in under a week.

The card the government would be hoping for is that these people can't actually afford to go on strike, which would basically make them glorified slaves, which is a pretty shocking state of affairs in what is still actually one of the 20 richest countries in the world.

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

Not going to mention specifics but a local brewery pays that kind of money.
Worked in one myself and got that before retiring a few years ago.

Sounds like you are talking out of your arséhole to be honest.

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

Sounds like you are talking out of your arséhole to be honest.

Well if it doesn't suit your argument and agenda then try and insult the poster.

PS
We even got a weekly allowance of free drink