Baptism cert for school?

Zulu

Hi folks,
does anyone know if you are required to prove your child was christened in order to get them into a catholic primary school?

We don't wish to christen our child, however, we do wish to get them into the local primary school.

I've no particular qualms lying about having had the child christened in order to get them in tbh, but will I be asked to "prove" it?

I'm sure I'm not the first person who though of this?
Cheers.

Rev Hellfire

If I recall correctly we where asked to provide a baptism cert for our local school. As to what difference it would make if we didn't have one I'm not sure.

seamus

If you say the child is catholic, then it's quite likely that you will be asked to provide a baptismal cert, especially if places are limited.

Zulu

Yeah, but could you just keep "forgetting" it until school starts?

Dades

I'd also say it's part of the acceptance. Place are too tight these days in schools. I'll find out next year. :pac:

I've also thought there must be money to be made by an enterprising person creating fake but realistic baptismal certs. (I made good money in the fake ID industry back in school!)

Zulu wrote: »

Yeah, but could you just keep "forgetting" it until school starts?

Many places are offered around January - so you might find yourself having to forget for 6 months. You'd be busted for sure.

yellowlabrador

Why? you presumably also don't want your child to do their communion.
Just be upfront and state your position. I'm sure you won't be the only one. Another option would be the local CofI school, they don't ask.
How can the authorities guess at demand if people keep doing the same old thing without standing up for their views and beliefs?

Dades

yellowlabrador wrote: »

How can the authorities guess at demand if people keep doing the same old thing without standing up for their views and beliefs?

Well, they could ask people for a start.

Looking at the application records for every school in the country is hardly going to answer that question. People apply to schools because of any number of reasons, the vicinity and reputation being the primary ones I'd imagine.

And it's all very well standing up for your personal views and beliefs until when the music stops, and your child is the last one standing without a school.

Zulu

yellowlabrador wrote: »

Why?

Because it's a fantastic school my wife went to 1 min from her parents house, and 5 mins from ours.

you presumably also don't want your child to do their communion.

Communion happens in 1st class. Our child would be in the door by then. It's unlikely the child would be expelled at that point.

Just be upfront and state your position.

Yeah, you're missing the point.

Another option would be the local CofI school, they don't ask.

Again you are missing the point. I'm not worried about not getting the child into school, I'm worried about getting the child into A school.

How can the authorities guess at demand if people keep doing the same old thing without standing up for their views and beliefs?

I'm not going to let my child suffer for my opinions.

Tow

yellowlabrador wrote: »

Another option would be the local CofI school, they don't ask.

They do, and children of no faith come last in the pecking order.

Jogathon

Check the enrolment policy of the school. Distance to the school is often listed very high up in the criteria. And ask in the school if they have capped their registration, or if they accept all.

swampgas

Just out of curiosity, why is a baptismal cert required at all? Isn't it possible that a child could have been baptised in such a way that no certificate is available? Don't lay people sometimes baptise children shortly after birth if they fear that the baby might not live very long? (I don't know this for sure, I just guessing here.)

And why wouldn't the school believe the parents anyway? Or why not have the parents sign a sheet saying that they will abide by the ethos of the school? (Not that I like that idea either.)

It just seems bizarre that in this one aspect of Irish life you have to have a piece of paper to prove that a particular religion has claimed you - just saying so isn't enough.

robindch

It's completely up to the school itself and the board of management and they can decide pretty much whatever policy they like.

Some schools demand written proof that you're a member of the appropriate religion and that could include stuff like certificates of baptism, letters from priests confirming attendance at mass, notes from godparents or anything at all really. Practices can and do vary widely from place to place and the government and the department of education don't appear to give a flying fuck. Other schools will take you at your word that you're a member of the appropriate religion and some don't bother asking.

The Educate Together schools publish their enrolment criteria and are fully open about where kids are in the queue for places. Schools controlled by religious organizations, however, are much less open -- for obvious reasons -- and may choose not to publicize their criteria, or let parents know how likely their child is to get a place, or indeed, anything at all.

If you're applying for a place in a religiously-controlled school, then I'd be careful about making too many enquiries before your child is accepted and especially, before he or she actually starts school. Once your child starts though, you can be more open about your actual religious beliefs, rather than the religious beliefs you have to pretend to have so that your child can receive an education at a school paid for by the state, but controlled by an unelected religious gerontocracy.

getz

Dades wrote: »

Well, they could ask people for a start.

Looking at the application records for every school in the country is hardly going to answer that question. People apply to schools because of any number of reasons, the vicinity and reputation being the primary ones I'd imagine.

And it's all very well standing up for your personal views and beliefs until when the music stops, and your child is the last one standing without a school.

in england a faith school can loose its goverment funding unless it meets its required intake numbers of other faiths,the catholic girls schools never seem to have a problem as muslim parents are keen to send their girls to all girls schools.

Jogathon

robindch wrote: »

It's completely up to the school itself and the board of management and they can decide pretty much whatever policy they like.


The Educate Together schools publish their enrolment criteria and are fully open about where kids are in the queue for places. Schools controlled by religious organizations, however, are much less open -- for obvious reasons -- and may choose not to publicize their criteria, or let parents know how likely their child is to get a place, or indeed, anything at all.

All schools have an enrolment policy that must be available if requested.

robindch

Jogathon wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

Schools controlled by religious organizations, however, are much less open -- for obvious reasons -- and may choose not to publicize their criteria

All schools have an enrolment policy that must be available if requested.

Thanks. I wasn't aware it was a legal requirement.

What I was referring to was the willingness of schools controlled by religious groups to publicize their enrolment policies; ie, they're not always available on websites and so on.

ET schools, on the other hand, will typically have their policies available on the internet. A quick google here for "educate together" and the first two schools that come up have published their enrolment policies here and here). While the ET mother ship publishes its general enrolment policy as well.

Dades

Jogathon wrote: »

All schools have an enrolment policy that must be available if requested.

Nobody can be sure what goes on within school boards when after the obvious candidates have been selected there's 100 kids looking for 20 places.

That said, I've found that most schools are reasonably open about enrollment policies, even when they are blatantly discriminatory.

yellowlabrador

yellowlabrador wrote: »

Why? you presumably also don't want your child to do their communion.
Just be upfront and state your position. I'm sure you won't be the only one. Another option would be the local CofI school, they don't ask.
How can the authorities guess at demand if people keep doing the same old thing without standing up for their views and beliefs?

Yes they do, I live right beside a COI school, and places are reserved for COI first, then other Prodestants, than RC, and then everybody else. COI kids also take preference over siblings.

deelite

I was asked for my son's baptismal Cert when he was in 6th class not when enrolling- it was only required for confirmation not communion. Personally I would ring the school and tell them your situation.

Zamboni

Zulu wrote: »

Hi folks,
does anyone know if you are required to prove your child was christened in order to get them into a catholic primary school?

We don't wish to christen our child, however, we do wish to get them into the local primary school.

I've no particular qualms lying about having had the child christened in order to get them in tbh, but will I be asked to "prove" it?

I'm sure I'm not the first person who though of this?
Cheers.

I would ask you to enrol in Educate Together schools if there is one within your vicinity.
The more people that continue to place children in religious schools, then nothing will ever change.
This is something worth a fight - but I agree with Dades, there comes a point in the battle where rights/wrongs become unimportant in comparison to the childs education.
It is easier to increase Educate Together school places than it is to change current religious schools policies and/or remove the Equality Act exemption for religious schools.
It is the route Ruairi Quinn is taking and I agree with him.

Zamboni

Dades wrote: »

And it's all very well standing up for your personal views and beliefs until when the music stops, and your child is the last one standing without a school.

Very important point - And whilst I agree with you, I also believe that if you do yield and enrol your child in a religious school then you have no right to complain about a lack of secular education in Ireland.
I really feel sorry for the rural population who have no choice.

Zulu

Zamboni wrote: »

I would ask you to enrol in Educate Together schools if there is one within your vicinity.

That's not really helpful at all - but thanks.

Zamboni

Zulu wrote: »

That's not really helpful at all - but thanks.

No bother.
Just as a matter of interest - Is lying to get something you want a moral lesson you plan on teaching your child or would this proposed discretion be something you would keep hidden from them?

Rev Hellfire

Zamboni wrote: »

if you do yield and enrol your child in a religious school then you have no right to complain about a lack of secular education in Ireland.

That's all fine and dandy assuming you do have a choice, with both parents typically working or the practicalities of getting said offspring to an alternative school there may not be a realistic choice.

Zamboni

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

That's all fine and dandy assuming you do have a choice, with both parents typically working or the practicalities of getting said offspring to an alternative school there may not be a realistic choice.

If you are not prepared to fight then you are not entitled to moan.
The individual can decide their own where there priorities lie.

Zulu

Zamboni wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest - Is lying to get something you want a moral lesson you plan on teaching your child...

Just as a matter of interest - is antagonising people something you always take a preference for? Or do you try to be helpful on occasion?

Peregrinus

swampgas wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, why is a baptismal cert required at all? Isn't it possible that a child could have been baptised in such a way that no certificate is available? Don't lay people sometimes baptise children shortly after birth if they fear that the baby might not live very long? (I don't know this for sure, I just guessing here.)

There are procedures in hospitals and such places for registering emergency baptisms.

It can happen that someone who has been baptised has no baptismal certificate, but it’s extremely rare. But, say, the parish office is burned down and the register of baptisms is destroyed. In a case like that you can get a certificate from the church authorities to say that the register was destroyed, and a witness to the baptism makes a statutory declaration to say that yes, little Fiachra was baptised in that very church shortly before the fire, and that will generally be acceptable.

swampgas wrote: »

It just seems bizarre that in this one aspect of Irish life you have to have a piece of paper to prove that a particular religion has claimed you - just saying so isn't enough.

Not nearly as bizarre as asking for a child’s birth certificate, when you can tell just from looking at the child that it was indeed born!

Rev Hellfire

Zamboni wrote: »

If you are not prepared to fight then you are not entitled to moan.
The individual can decide their own where there priorities lie.

Thanks but I think I'll skip the home schooling, capitulate and keep my job so I can finance them through school and hopefully college :rolleyes:

swampgas

Peregrinus wrote: »

There are procedures in hospitals and such places for registering emergency baptisms.

It can happen that someone who has been baptised has no baptismal certificate, but it’s extremely rare. But, say, the parish office is burned down and the register of baptisms is destroyed. In a case like that you can get a certificate from the church authorities to say that the register was destroyed, and a witness to the baptism makes a statutory declaration to say that yes, little Fiachra was baptised in that very church shortly before the fire, and that will generally be acceptable.

Interesting, thanks for the info.

Not nearly as bizarre as asking for a child’s birth certificate, when you can tell just from looking at the child that it was indeed born!

Okay, I know your tongue is planted firmly in your cheek with that one. :pac:

seamus

Zamboni wrote: »

If you are not prepared to fight then you are not entitled to moan.
The individual can decide their own where there priorities lie.

While I agree on principle with the concept, it's not always the way to go when there are time constraints in the fight.

For an adult who might be fighting for their right to enrol in a college course, they have ten years or more in which to take that fight. Fighting for the right to a secular education for your child is important, but the problem is that children don't freeze in place during that time - a child still exists which requires education. And the child's education takes priority over the principle of a secular education.

So there are times when the correct thing to do is play by the system's rules while simultaneously opposing those rules. Arguably that's the correct thing to do in most cases, that's how civil society should work.

In some regards it can be argued that paying lip service to the rules can be a form of protest, by undermining those rules and their purpose. If parents get their children baptised for enrolment but then actively ignore/refuse everything else religion-based, it makes a complete mockery of the baptism requirement and the schools will be forced to change.

UDP

Do schools accept photocopies of birth certs or do they demand the originals?
If they accept photocopies then I would go down the route of photoshopping some one else's birth cert to change the child's name (photocopying the photoshopped certificate to make it look more authentic). Then once accepted tell them you don't want your child involved in anything that is catholic.

Zamboni

seamus wrote: »

In some regards it can be argued that paying lip service to the rules can be a form of protest, by undermining those rules and their purpose. If parents get their children baptised for enrolment but then actively ignore/refuse everything else religion-based, it makes a complete mockery of the baptism requirement and the schools will be forced to change.

I wish I had your optimism seamus.
I would respectfully point out that it does, however, appear to be a justification for inaction by people who espouse secular ideals.