Quinn women on Prime Time (Oct 11)

Madd Finn

Anyone see Sean Quinn's wife and daughter on Prime Time being grilled (or more correctly warmly toasted under the lowest possible setting) by Miriam O'Callaghan?

Not the Yummy Mummy's finest hour. She let them get away with murder. On the very first question she put it to Colette Quinn, daughter of Sean, that her father had taken a gamble and that many people were now suffering as a consequence.

La Quinn replied: "That word gamble has been bandied about quite a bit over the last couple of years... The family would say that he didn't take a gamble. He made an investment in a highly regulated bank..... based on all the financial information available to him ....and made an informed investment decision."

(you can see this on the RTE Player at the time of writing. From 12 minutes in on the PRime Time show of October 11th)

Now this is disingenuous in the extreme. He did indeed take a stake in Anglo, and the mechanics of how the finances were raised are still the subject of legal investigation, but this was only AFTER he had lost a fortune on Contracts for Difference based on Anglo's share price.

CFDs are purely gambling instruments. One does not take ownership of any shares, one does not benefit from the profits of the company in question or become liable for their expenses or losses. One simply wins or loses money from a third independent party based on the performance of the underlying asset, in this case the Anglo Share Price.

It's EXACTLY like betting on the outcome of a sporting event. To say that it wasn't a gamble is just wrong.

Earlier the programme conducted a VOX pop in Cavan during which one lady from the Concerned Citizens group complained about the "terrible abuse" they had received in the media. "We were called culchies and idiots", she said, trembling in indignation. (3mins 30s on the Prime Time show on RTE player)

So I'm not going to say Colette Quinn is an ignorant idiot. I'm not saying that at all.

But I'm saying she clearly thinks the rest of us are.

krd

Madd Finn wrote: »

CFDs are purely gambling instruments. One does not take ownership of any shares, one does not benefit from the profits of the company in question or become liable for their expenses or losses. One simply wins or loses money from a third independent party based on the performance of the underlying asset, in this case the Anglo Share Price.

The reason he was using CFDs was to copy cat Warren Buffet. Warren Buffet used cash from his insurance company, and CFD to purchase businesses. Seanie was just doing a Paddy Whack version. It's like the old joke - they made him an offer he couldn't understand.

Earlier the programme conducted a VOX pop in Cavan during which one lady from the Concerned Citizens group complained about the "terrible abuse" they had received in the media. "We were called culchies and idiots", she said, trembling in indignation. (3mins 30s on the Prime Time show on RTE player)

I think the only place in the media these people were being called culchies, idiots and bog trotting thicks, was on places like boards, and the comment fora of various online publications................I wonder who was responsible for that.

So I'm not going to say Colette Quinn is an ignorant idiot. I'm not saying that at all.

But I'm saying she clearly thinks the rest of us are.

It comes from living in fantasy world. Give some people a little money, and little power, they start believing they're geniuses. The Quinns had people bending and scraping for them for years.

I bet the didn't even look at the Anglo books before making their gamble. Why would they need to check the figures, they were gods of traditional Irish business.

Culchies.

HellFireClub

It was like something you'd see out of a US cult. There is certainly a cult of seriously indoctrinated people now surrounding the Quinn saga, the scale of it is scary in my opinion. A lot of it, to my mind, seems to be borne out of a kind of strange paranoid country folk ignorance, that says, "It's the Dublin media who are out to get the Quinn's, so let's put it up to the lot of em up there in the big smoke!".

There is nothing you can tell these people, but that they are so indoctrinated into the Cult of Quinn, that they refuse to look at the figures, the facts and the liabilities that stand out from the rest of the debate.

tim9002

Not Miriam O'Callaghan's finest hour last night, very poor performance. Cosying up to the Quinn ladies and failing to ask the pertinent follow up questions was very poor journalism and was a lowering in standards at Primetime.

poeticseraphim

HellFireClub wrote: »

It was like something you'd see out of a US cult. There is certainly a cult of seriously indoctrinated people now surrounding the Quinn saga, the scale of it is scary in my opinion. A lot of it, to my mind, seems to be borne out of a kind of strange paranoid country folk ignorance, that says, "It's the Dublin media who are out to get the Quinn's, so let's put it up to the lot of em up there in the big smoke!".

There is nothing you can tell these people, but that they are so indoctrinated into the Cult of Quinn, that they refuse to look at the figures, the facts and the liabilities that stand out from the rest of the debate.

Well observed.Irish politics in a nutshell.

sceptre

HellFireClub wrote: »

It was like something you'd see out of a US cult. There is certainly a cult of seriously indoctrinated people now surrounding the Quinn saga, the scale of it is scary in my opinion. A lot of it, to my mind, seems to be borne out of a kind of strange paranoid country folk ignorance, that says, "It's the Dublin media who are out to get the Quinn's, so let's put it up to the lot of em up there in the big smoke!".

There is nothing you can tell these people, but that they are so indoctrinated into the Cult of Quinn, that they refuse to look at the figures, the facts and the liabilities that stand out from the rest of the debate.

That's a rather damning thing to say. It is sort of true though, so all you're doing is illustrating the strange view of reality that seems to exist up in some of the border counties. Not that it doesn't exist elsewhere but that's where we're seeing it recently. In spades.

I suspect that there's a view within the Quinn family that foreign (and some not so foreign) bondholders are getting paid while they're wrongly being singled out for penury. Of course, even if someone's of the view that bondholders need to be paid to avoid financial armageddon, there's still a significant difference, which they're choosing not to see. One of my more recent mantras is that some of the biggest failings in recent history have come from a complete unwillingness and inability to see things from the point of view of anyone else. There's an entire psychological theory one could build around the inability of the Quinns to see the difference between a straightforward investment in a regulated industry and taking out earth-shatteringly large gambles on CFDs which can produce massive gains but also massive - not just losses - debts if they don't come in. Why can't they see this? Either because it doesn't suit their limited vista based on their self-held certain position as masters of the universe or because they're too, erm, unbelievably slow to understand the risks involved. Whichever you choose to believe is entirely up to you but it largely depends on whether it's better to be greedy or stupid. Or, perhaps, both (though, again, it's a choice between stupid greed or greedy stupid).

That's a bit unforgiving and mean, coming from me, but that's all I've got to offer as a rationale.

Japer

Madd Finn wrote: »

"The family would say that he didn't take a gamble. He made an investment in a highly regulated bank..... based on all the financial information available to him ....and made an informed investment decision."

A littbe bit of truth there. When I was at school we were told the banks were gilt edge securities, and were regulated etc. Thought the Dept of finance, the Central bank and regulator kept an eye on things at Anglo. Its obvious now they did not. I can understand Quinns anger now that those highly paid public servants not only allowed the crash to happen but were rewarded with golden pensions.y

Godge

Japer wrote: »

A littbe bit of truth there. When I was at school we were told the banks were gilt edge securities, and were regulated etc. Thought the Dept of finance, the Central bank and regulator kept an eye on things at Anglo. Its obvious now they did not. I can understand Quinns anger now that those highly paid public servants not only allowed the crash to happen but were rewarded with golden pensions.y

No element of truth there. I cannot believe that people can come on here and defend the Quinns whose behaviour meant that the problems of Anglo were hidden for six months while their CFDs artificially supported the share price.

The Quinns were monumentally stupid with their investment and when they were caught out they were monumentally criminal in attempting to hide their money from us taxpayers.

The golden pensions of the public servants pale into insignificance compared to the money the Quinns have hidden. Wait until you see the next wedding cake.

SeanW

Godge wrote: »

No element of truth there. I cannot believe that people can come on here and defend the Quinns whose behaviour meant that the problems of Anglo were hidden for six months while their CFDs artificially supported the share price.

The Quinns were monumentally stupid with their investment and when they were caught out they were monumentally criminal in attempting to hide their money from us taxpayers.

The golden pensions of the public servants pale into insignificance compared to the money the Quinns have hidden. Wait until you see the next wedding cake.

I don't deny that the Quinns have cost us a lot of money, but their impact was exacerbated dramatically by the actions of our government.

First of all, if the government had not given any guarantees to Anglo - or repudiated these when it became clear that this was a mistake - nor put the 2% "Quinn levy" on insurance premiums to keep Quinn insurance afloat.

In doing these things the government made an issue of the Quinns behaviour for us in a way that it never should been - Anglo should have been let go and liquidators would be dealing with Anglos debtors, while Quinn insurance should also have been let go to the wall.

It also seems to me that the Quinns are the only ones in that golden circle to have been put under any rigourous scrutiny (which they should be, no disputing that). The property developer AFAIK have mostly got off scott-free.

kippy

SeanW wrote: »

I don't deny that the Quinns have cost us a lot of money, but their impact was exacerbated dramatically by the actions of our government.

First of all, if the government had not given any guarantees to Anglo - or repudiated these when it became clear that this was a mistake - nor put the 2% "Quinn levy" on insurance premiums to keep Quinn insurance afloat.

In doing these things the government made an issue of the Quinns behaviour for us in a way that it never should been - Anglo should have been let go and liquidators would be dealing with Anglos debtors, while Quinn insurance should also have been let go to the wall.

It also seems to me that the Quinns are the only ones in that golden circle to have been put under any rigourous scrutiny (which they should be, no disputing that). The property developer AFAIK have mostly got off scott-free.

I think you need to get up to speed on:
1. Why Anglo wasnt let go to the wall - even if that happened, Quinn still had massive debts to the bank.
2. More importantly why Quinn Insurance wasnt let go to the wall.
3. Why Quinn and his family are in the courts at the moment.

The golden circle or maple ten of property developers and quinn had two very different roles in the mess although I do believe the golden circle are still under investigation, or moreso why the bank treated them preferentially.

goose2005

krd wrote: »

It's like the old joke - they made him an offer he couldn't understand.

It's worse - they didn't. Anglo had no idea he had laid so much money on their share price, it really panicked them.

Japer wrote: »

A littbe bit of truth there. When I was at school we were told the banks were gilt edge securities, and were regulated etc.

Maybe you should have listened in school better? Gilts are bonds issued by governments, they have nothing to do with private banks. And although bank share prices in Ireland were usually fairly stable, that's not a guarantee.

kippy wrote: »

The golden circle or maple ten of property developers and quinn had two very different roles in the mess although I do believe the golden circle are still under investigation, or moreso why the bank treated them preferentially.

Not to mention that the only reason the bank had to call in the Golden Circle was a mad attempt to clean up Quinn's mess.

gerryo777

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to know why David Drumm isn't being sent for trial. He was the head man at anglo when all this was going on. Is he still being investigated by the Garda?

tommyboy2222

So annoying watching O'Callaghan interviewing.

When the Quinn wan stated that she didn't understand what they were signing , O'Callaghan let it go rather than pursuing it.

Actually she let every crazy statement go . She's not fit for anything more than light entertainment.

Dannyboy83

sceptre wrote: »

One of my more recent mantras is that some of the biggest failings in recent history have come from a complete unwillingness and inability to see things from the point of view of anyone else.

Interesting statement and with wide application;
You have a huge chunk of Irish society who bought overpriced property and relied on the government to tell them if they were or were not in a bubble.

Then you have a hunk chunk of Irish society who didn't buy overpriced property because they were skeptical of government and fully understood we were in a bubble.

I think both sides are capable of understanding the other side's point of view, but feel their own point of view is more valid, given the circumstances - not hindsight.

I guess there is a long list of issues you could apply it to, with some very obvious ones such as the Unions/CPA and so on.

sceptre wrote: »

There's an entire psychological theory one could build around the inability of the Quinns to see the difference between a straightforward investment in a regulated industry and taking out earth-shatteringly large gambles on CFDs which can produce massive gains but also massive - not just losses - debts if they don't come in.

Why can't they see this?

Building on your previous statement - probably because of the fraudulent activity at Anglo?

Anglo was the Irish equivalent of Enron.
Charges have been brought against Anglo executives for fraudulent/criminal activity.

I'm sure they do see it from our point of view, but they feel their point of view is more valid.

Obviously, they are not alone in this way of thinking

SHAREHOLDERS of Anglo Irish Bank are attempting to sue the bank and its senior management over concealment of loans and the dramatic collapse in its share price.
Irish Nationwide Building Society is also being sued, along with its auditors KPMG and Ernst & Young, Anglo Irish Bank’s auditors.


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/story/I...#ixzz1tudS3VaK

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/anglo-investors-may-sue-over-massive-losses-3088245.html
About 300 investors in a property fund set up by Anglo Irish Bank have been told their investment of €173m in a vast property portfolio has collapsed in value by 79 per cent.

The dramatic collapse, which could fall even further, has caused a group of about 50 investors to team up and appoint LKG Solicitors to represent them in an attempt to prove that the investment was mis-sold to them.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/drumm-faces-joint-legal-action-by-exanglo-investors-2658220.html

DISGRACED former Anglo Irish Bank CEO David Drumm is facing a bill of up to €500,000 if a group of former shareholders successfully sue him.

Two solicitors are among those preparing cases against Mr Drumm because he signed off on allegedly fraudulent annual accounts while an Anglo director.

So in regard to Colette Quinn's statement:

The family would say that he didn't take a gamble. He made an investment in a highly regulated bank..... based on all the financial information available to him ....and made an informed investment decision.

I think if they make that case in front of a court, after the criminal prosecution has concluded, and perhaps an investigation into the Irish regulator, they will have a strong chance of success, like the Enron investors had:

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-09-09/us/enron.settlement_1_enron-related-securities-fraud-collapse?_s=PM:US

In the largest settlement in the history of U.S. securities fraud cases, Enron shareholders and investors will split more than $7.2 billion from financial institutions accused of playing a role in the energy giant's downfall.

Either way, I think the Irish taxpayer is going to be on the hook for billions more yet.

sceptre

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Building on your previous statement - probably because of the fraudulent activity at Anglo?

Well, I already inserted my answer to that question in the sentence immediately after. It wasn't posed as a single-paragraph question, after all:) Though obviously, that's just a single view.

Victor

gerryo777 wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to know why David Drumm isn't being sent for trial. He was the head man at anglo when all this was going on. Is he still being investigated by the Garda?

Assuming he can be charged with something, he isn't in the country.

krd

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

So in regard to Colette Quinn's statement:

I think if they make that case in front of a court, after the criminal prosecution has concluded, and perhaps an investigation into the Irish regulator, they will have a strong chance of success, like the Enron investors had:

No, no, and no.

The Quinns were not unsophisticated retail investors. Or at least they weren't meant to be. (of course they are unsophisticated.....They're kind of like the Beverly Hillbillies. They struck gravel on the family farm.)

Retail investors punt on market information. People with the intention of purchasing the company, do due diligence. They don't just take the company at its word. (By the way, I'm aware of some Paddy Whack due diligence done during the boom years - where things were omitted, like a company directors association with a major fraud. )

If you have the resources, like the Quinns had, you go through everything with a fine comb.

There are some similarities with Australia's HIH Insurance collapse. HIH was brought done by purchasing a company that had fraudulent books. The Seanie Quinn equivalent ended up going to jail. More on the basis of him neglecting his duties, than on partaking in the fraud itself. If you're a director of an insurance company in Australia, and you screw up - make the company insolvent through a poor investment, you can go to jail.

It's simple as this. When you do due diligence, test the ******* accounts yourself.

The only defense the Quinns seem to have left is the plain simple folk defense. Or bog trotting culchies, whatever you prefer. The Quinns are now pleading eejitery, they had enough resources to employ people to tell them they were being eejits, and they didn't. They made scores of bad investments. Even the assets they're trying to make off with are under water.

Ireland has a lot of very intelligent hardworking people. But these are never the people in charge. Every major disaster that has befallen the country is shot through with eejitery. I knew people who worked for Quinn. When they first heard Quinn had invested in Anglo - this is before the **** hit the fan, they knew something was wrong.


As a people, have we learned anything?




No....we have learned nothing.

Sponge Bob

Miriam was excellent I thought. She Prime Time Investigated the €100k cake while ignoring the €1-2bn odd gambling losses on CFDs that sent the entire family well underwater.

It was a shameless piece of PR flummery by the Quinns....who seem to have hired what Prime Time consider to be the 'right' PR people in Dublin ( whoever they are)

Dirk Gently

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It was a shameless piece of PR flummery by the Quinns....who seem to have hired what Prime Time consider to be the 'right' PR people in Dublin ( whoever they are)

That's exactly what it was, pure PR. Either that or a shameful exercise in appeasement to the border county faithful who've been harping on about the "Dublin Media". Perhaps like you say, the Quinns have hired someone like Terry Prone or one of the other establishment PR manipulators to get them some easy air time.

Sponge Bob

Dirk Gently wrote: »

the Quinns have hired establishment PR manipulators to get them some easy air time.

James Morrissey, Fleischmann Hilliard.

"James Morrissey, is our PR man in Dublin"

James was the long term spin doctor for Fingleton/INBS and was associated with Bernard McNamara too.

Miriam looked like she was cooing her way through a prearranged q and a with effortless ease, professional that she is. She made hard questions look easy.

JustinDee

SeanW wrote: »

I don't deny that the Quinns have cost us a lot of money, but their impact was exacerbated dramatically by the actions of our government.

First of all, if the government had not given any guarantees to Anglo - or repudiated these when it became clear that this was a mistake - nor put the 2% "Quinn levy" on insurance premiums to keep Quinn insurance afloat.

In doing these things the government made an issue of the Quinns behaviour for us in a way that it never should been - Anglo should have been let go and liquidators would be dealing with Anglos debtors, while Quinn insurance should also have been let go to the wall.

It also seems to me that the Quinns are the only ones in that golden circle to have been put under any rigourous scrutiny (which they should be, no disputing that). The property developer AFAIK have mostly got off scott-free.

Oh ffs. A quick pass across field of the focus problem and the Quinns "aren't as bad".
I don't think you realise the magnitude of recklessness involved here. You can't just blame a lender for giving you money. It is YOU who instigates and undertakes.
The likes of the Quinns are laughing at you for falling hook, line and sinker for the arrogant justification of their financial malpractice that took this place for everything it could.

tayto lover

5,000 people turned out today in Ballyconnell to march in support of the Quinn family. I'm still shaking my head.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

5,000 people turned out today in Ballyconnell to march in support of the Quinn family. I'm still shaking my head.

It kind of explains why we have so many busts and Fianna Fail voters, there is obviously a sizable minority of our population that are mentally challenged. Cavan people are looking worse and worse the longer this goes on.

I'd like to know why is Quinn allowed to live in a multi millionaire euro home ? Surely he should be moved to a small bungalow on a council estate with the proceeds from his house used to pay a bit of the fraud that he is still pulling on the Irish people.

krd

Deleted User wrote: »

It kind of explains why we have so many busts and Fianna Fail voters, there is obviously a sizable minority of our population that are mentally challenged. Cavan people are looking worse and worse the longer this goes on.

The Cavan people were not starting from a high water mark, it has to be said.

I'd like to know why is Quinn allowed to live in a multi millionaire euro home ? Surely he should be moved to a small bungalow on a council estate with the proceeds from his house used to pay a bit of the fraud that he is still pulling on the Irish people.

At this rate....Seanie will be finding himself living in a "luxury apartment" up in Phibsborough very soon.

tayto lover

krd wrote: »

The Cavan people were not starting from a high water mark, it has to be said.



At this rate....Seanie will be finding himself living in a "luxury apartment" up in Phibsborough very soon.

As it costs 56k to keep one person in prison for a year they will continue to cost the taxpayers money.

MadsL

tayto lover wrote: »

As it costs 56k to keep one person in prison for a year they will continue to cost the taxpayers money.

It would be worth double to show those gobshites marching in Cavan how brainwashed they are by the Quinn Kool-Aid.

krd

MadsL wrote: »

It would be worth double to show those gobshites marching in Cavan how brainwashed they are by the Quinn Kool-Aid.

No they wouldn't wake up.

It's a cultural thing, especially in rural Ireland. The local cute hoor, is seen as a kind of bandit hero. And the thicks are too thick to wake up to the fact they're the ones getting rode.

On top of that, the narrative the culchies have told themselves, and so has Seanie. And what they all seem to believe, is Seanie had loads of money at all times, just the sneaks in Dublin through slight of hand have stolen his fortune.

krd

krd wrote: »

No they wouldn't wake up.

It's a cultural thing, especially in rural Ireland. The local cute hoor, is seen as a kind of bandit hero. And the thicks are too thick to wake up to the fact they're the ones getting rode.

Its not cultural its generational, i live in a fairly rural area the only people i hear supporting Quinn are the older generation.

Those same people who think that working people owe them a generous pension, fuel, telephone, medical, etc etc even if they never paid a cent of tax in their life.

They are the same crew that voted Haughey and his criminals into government time after time, Committed the tax fraud in the 80's, marched in their thousands when the medical cards of multi-milionaires were threatened, but oddly d'ont mind that their grand children are having to emigrate for good:mad::eek:

It can't all be down to stupidity and selfishness, most of it must be due to a lack of information/internet ?? They see the downfall of QUinn as an attack on an elderly person. It doesn't matter that he one step off a maffia don. Come to think of it the other other people under 60 that i have seen support Quinn are ardent Fianna Fail supporters:rolleyes:.

[Jackass]

I literally can't understand it...

The Cavan folk refer to him tongue in cheek as "Saint Sean" according to a Breffni friend of mine, but I think the main thing is that the Quinn family did so much for the community up there, such as investment in infrastructure and creating massive employment in the region and driving up property prices bringing it into the commuter belt etc., that they don't want to believe the man has done anything wrong and are burying their head in the sand about the facts and figures and listening to the story of "they stole my business so I couldn't pay them back because they had it out for me..."

The reality of it is that this is the biggest corporate scandal in the history of the Irish state. It's our Enron. Not only that, but somehow members of the family as well as the board of directors and whoever was signing off these loans have evaded prison, but the Quins have been given the opportunity to launder dozens if not hundreds of millions of euro out of the reach of the state through bogus companies and "consulting / director fees" to just about anyone who was willing to have it put in their name, such as Mary who lives on the corner and my second cousin Ronan, whilst also breaching court orders so as to stash the cash (would you do 3 months in prison for tens of millions? I would...)

Quin snr. should be looking at 10 years+, the immediate family should be looking at c. 5 years each, they should have CAB seizing all of their assets....yet I see them sitting on prime time TV with their brass necks defending their actions? It really defies logic and belief....

krd

[Jackass] wrote: »

(would you do 3 months in prison for tens of millions? I would...)

I believe it's not simply three months. At the end of the three months, Quinn will be brought back to court, and if the contempt hasn't been purged, they can just send him back to prison for another three months. And that this can go on and on, until the contempt is purged.

Quin snr. should be looking at 10 years+, the immediate family should be looking at c. 5 years each, they should have CAB seizing all of their assets....yet I see them sitting on prime time TV with their brass necks defending their actions? It really defies logic and belief....

Quinn is attempting some kind of political campaign.

JustinDee

tayto lover wrote: »

As it costs 56k to keep one person in prison for a year they will continue to cost the taxpayers money.

This is irrelevant and extremely limp moral relavitism.
It is also small potatoes compared to the huge sums of money in question.