Dawkins: Sex, Death and the Meaning of Life (New Series)

MagicMarker

Really looking forward to this, starts Monday @ 10pm on More4. 3 episodes I think.

More and more of us realise there is no God. And yet religion still has a hold over us. Ideas of saints and sinners, heaven and hell still shape our thinking.

In this series, the evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins faces up to the big questions of life in a world moving on and leaving religion behind. He explores what reason and science might offer in the place of religion to inspire and guide our lives. How can an atheist find meaning in life? How can we face death without the comfort of the afterlife? How should we think about right and wrong?

In a journey that takes him through visually stunning locations, from the tornado devastation of Joplin Missouri to the funeral pyres of Varanasi in India, from the red light districts of Paris and London to the Buddhist monasteries of the Himalayas, Richard Dawkins builds a powerful argument for facing up to the scientific truth about life and death, however bracing that may be. The series explores the latest science. Richard Dawkins investigates deep emotions like disgust and empathy, the science of ageing and why humans find it so hard to understand chance. The series is also a television first because Richard Dawkins has his genome sequenced and analysed – the first named Briton to have this done and only the tenth worldwide. It’s often a deeply personal journey, featuring sequences with Richard Dawkins’ mother, his dog, his 1960s stamping ground of Berkeley, California and the Dawkins family vault in Chipping Norton. Richard Dawkins develops his ideas through interviews with, amongst others, the geneticist who co-discovered the structure of DNA James Watson, the controversial comedian Ricky Gervais, a 105-year-old New York stock broker who still goes to work every day and scientists including Steven Pinker and Leonard Mlodinow. Richard Dawkins concludes: “We are made by the laws of physics working through four billion years of evolution. We have a brief window of life through which to see the universe and understand how we came to be in it. That truth may not be comforting but it has a majesty of its own”.

Dades

Meant to put a note up about this here. Have my reminder set.

Can't imagine this being much different than any of Dawkins' previous fare, though.

Dave!

Standard talking head stuff I suppose Always worth watching though

Threadkillers

Maybe its worth watching but is it worth listening to ?

Just check out this clip for sheer humility...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgIIeGnEXI

NIMAN

I take Dawkins with a pinch of salt.

Read his last book on holiday and from what I remember he claims there is no God but there might be parallel universes where an alternative version of me has a green moustache.

Yeah, thats more believeable than a God.

ro95

darwin: most knowledgeable person of his time

Pride Fighter

Cheers for the thread, it has reminded me to put this on series link. Dawkins always does interesting documentaries. This should be the same and will be a must watch for me.

TheChizler

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Cheers for the thread, it has reminded me to put this on series link. Dawkins always does interesting documentaries. This should be the same and will be a must watch for me.

And that just reminded me that I can sky+ it from my bed! Thank you!

Pride Fighter

Anyone else think his dog is deadly in the show?

Morgase

So, was the programme any good in the end?

Obliq

Morgase wrote: »

So, was the programme any good in the end?

I enjoyed it anyway:-) A bit too much of Dawkins perhaps.....y'know, the usual. But interesting - the science of disgust was a good bit

shizz

Just about to watch this and found it on youtube;

Dades

Watched the show there. Mildly entertaining. The stats about masturbation were amusing!

It's no Downton Abbey - but I'll probably tune in next week.

Morgase

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Anyone else think his dog is deadly in the show?

Best part of the show! I want to run away with the lovely ball of fluff.

J0hnick

Watching it now on Youtube

shizz

Is the next episode on tonight?

Ickle Magoo

Yep, more4 @10 - what science can tell us about death...

MagicMarker

Bloody hell, I wasn't expecting these pictures at the start of this episode!

Lapin

Wonder if Hitch will get a mention ?

MagicMarker

That genome mapping was awesome, really great end to the episode speaking about how his ancestors passed on their genes to him.

Sarky

He covered genomics? Ooh, I'll have to give it a look then, I love that stuff.

Pride Fighter

Preferred the first episode, but was still and interesting watch.

Obliq

Gave up 1/4 way through and watched some rubbish comedy. Dawkins' patronising was getting to me. Turned off after he said "They think they have found comfort in their belief...." (or very similar). No Dawkins - they have found comfort in their belief. Grrr.

Tar.Aldarion

Dades wrote: »

Watched the show there. Mildly entertaining. The stats about masturbation were amusing!

It's no Downton Abbey - but I'll probably tune in next week.

'My child will be Catholic, just like his father.' *splatters tea and monocles everywhere *

Thanks for the thread OP, I'll have a look, although I fear it may be a masturbatory affair.

Tedious Bore

episode 2 available online anywhere.....?

ooPabsoo

There we go...

Nodin

Tedious Bore wrote: »

episode 2 available online anywhere.....?

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/sex-death-and-the-meaning-of-life/4od

recedite

Obliq wrote: »

Dawkins' patronising was getting to me. Turned off after he said.............

Blasphemy!!

Tedious Bore

Obliq wrote: »

Gave up 1/4 way through and watched some rubbish comedy. Dawkins' patronising was getting to me. Turned off after he said "They think they have found comfort in their belief...." (or very similar). No Dawkins - they have found comfort in their belief. Grrr.

think it was reassurance not comfort he said. Agree it was a clumsy choice of words and reassurance can be used to mean comfort, but I took it to mean assurance along the lines of guarantees, - the promises made by religions.

personally I thought he seemed genuinely sympathetic to the couple, but then also felt uncomfortable that they truely believe they are guaranteed to see their dead child again .....and all because of the peddled promises of a religion.

at the very least, I don't think it could be seen as any more patronising then the pity some religious folk feel for all the non-believers going to hell.

thought the programme was alright. bit disjointed but bits were interesting.

thanks for the link

Andrewf20

Enjoyed the program although I too prefered the 1st episode. I just wish he wouldnt say - "more and more us realise there is no God". Sounds very dogmatic.

ShooterSF

Found it fascinating. I'd love to get my genome mapped at some point in my life. That would feel really cool for some sentimental reason. Like getting to know yourself in a new way. I was also interested in the idea of non-religious people having wishes for their dead carcass. I flip flop on this sooo much. I know it's irrational to care but I like to try and convince myself telling people what I would like done gives them the chance to gain more closure by meeting my wishes and it's not just selfish egotism.

nagirrac

I thought the hospice scene was disgusting. How courageous and noble of the couple to agree to be interviewed in a time of such grief. What an utterly insensitive and mindnumbingly heartless comment from Dawkins "you have to draw a line under it anyway, why draw it out for several more months?" Does he not understand that Catholics who actually take their faith seriously do not have the option of abortion? He visited a Catholic hospice center ffs, what did he expect to hear?.. but of course he knew exactly what he was going to hear and used this couple to make his point about the "irrational" decisions people make due to religious beliefs.
I am pro-choice by the way, but this is also what choice is about. Who the hell is he to question their choice? I thought they were incredibly restrained in their response, personally if I were the husband I don't think I would have been so restrained.

mickrock

This Dawkins lad seems to think that one of his direct ancestors was a fish.

The Bishop!

nagirrac wrote: »

but of course he knew exactly what he was going to hear and used this couple to make his point about the "irrational" decisions people make due to religious beliefs.

Exactly. What an utterly insensitive thing to say.

Can't say i'm surprised mind you but that was really scraping the barrel, even by his condescendingly arrogant standards.

Obliq

I actually agree with you Bishop :eek:

Jimoslimos

NIMAN wrote: »

I take Dawkins with a pinch of salt.

Obliq wrote: »

I enjoyed it anyway:-) A bit too much of Dawkins perhaps.....y'know, the usual.

Obliq wrote: »

Gave up 1/4 way through and watched some rubbish comedy. Dawkins' patronising was getting to me. Turned off after he said "They think they have found comfort in their belief...." (or very similar). No Dawkins - they have found comfort in their belief. Grrr.

The Bishop! wrote: »

Can't say i'm surprised mind you but that was really scraping the barrel, even by his condescendingly arrogant standards.

mickrock wrote: »

This Dawkins lad seems to think that one of his direct ancestors was a fish.

I think it's almost fashionable to sneer at Dawkins these days. Usually by those who know him only as, "that militant atheist writer of the God Delusion".

BTW if you're going to watch a programme about death with a presenter like Dawkins who asks honest and challenging questions, expect to be offended, but spare the rest of us your righteous indignation. What good would it be if he tiptoed around sensitive issues?

Personally I liked it, there was little to no preaching in it or atheism v religion arguments but I guess when people see Dawkins name they draw their own conclusions

Obliq

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I think it's almost fashionable to sneer at Dawkins these days. Usually by those who know him only as, "that militant atheist writer of the God Delusion".

BTW if you're going to watch a programme about death with a presenter like Dawkins who asks honest and challenging questions, expect to be offended, but spare the rest of us your righteous indignation. What good would it be if he tiptoed around sensitive issues?

Personally I liked it, there was little to no preaching in it or atheism v religion arguments but I guess when people see Dawkins name they draw their own conclusions

Excuse me? I was offering you all my opinion, not shoving it down your neck. Why should I spare you my opinion? I'd like to ask you how do you know me well enough to call what I said "righteous indignation"? I neither see my comments as righteous (about religion or Dawkins) or indignant (except here, about your comment).

a) Yes, Dawkins annoys me with his manner towards people. Not because he is famous, but because some people just rub me up the wrong way.

b) I was not offended, but quite sickened by his insensitivity. I personally never tiptoe around sensitive issues myself, but I always try to approach them with respect for the people involved and their beliefs (so long as they don't impinge on mine). I didn't find him respectful enough to want to keep watching. I don't knock you for watching though.

c) You are making some quite serious assumptions about how I form my opinions. I am new to any study about atheism/theism. I form my own opinions based on what I see/hear.

The Bishop!

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I think it's almost fashionable to sneer at Dawkins these days. Usually by those who know him only as, "that militant atheist writer of the God Delusion".

Well, that's a strawman. My own personal dislike of Dawkins patronising manner is not based on whether i think it's fashionable or not to hold that view. Nor is it based on not having read his books or seen his interviews and debates.

BTW if you're going to watch a programme about death with a presenter like Dawkins who asks honest and challenging questions, expect to be offended, but spare the rest of us your righteous indignation. What good would it be if he tiptoed around sensitive issues?

How it's righteous indignation to comment on his glaring insensitivity towards that couple i just don't know. Framing it as us being too easily "offended" is not really the way i see it.

Personally I liked it, there was little to no preaching in it or atheism v religion arguments but I guess when people see Dawkins name they draw their own conclusions

Again a strawman, and you're implying that any criticism of Dawkins or parts of that documentary must be because of a negative bias.
I knew what he was like before seeing it yes, but even if i didn't know him from Adam, would still have said that interview was thoughtless and insensitive.

Jimoslimos

Obliq wrote: »

Excuse me? I was offering you all my opinion, not shoving it down your neck. Why should I spare you my opinion? I'd like to ask you how do you know me well enough to call what I said "righteous indignation"? I neither see my comments as righteous (about religion or Dawkins) or indignant (except here, about your comment).

Offering your opinion after not even watching half of it

Obliq wrote: »

Gave up 1/4 way through and watched some rubbish comedy. Dawkins' patronising was getting to me. Turned off after he said "They think they have found comfort in their belief...." (or very similar). No Dawkins - they have found comfort in their belief. Grrr.

You reckoned Dawkins was wrong to state "They think..." Seems pretty righteous to me. I've highlighted the appropriate words.

Obliq wrote: »

a) Yes, Dawkins annoys me with his manner towards people. Not because he is famous, but because some people just rub me up the wrong way.

How so?

Obliq wrote: »

b) I was not offended, but quite sickened by his insensitivity. I personally never tiptoe around sensitive issues myself, but I always try to approach them with respect for the people involved and their beliefs (so long as they don't impinge on mine). I didn't find him respectful enough to want to keep watching. I don't knock you for watching though.

I'm struggling to see where he was disrespectful or insensitive though. In a programme like this the couple would have been approached beforehand and most likely would have seen the questions aswell. Face to face he handled it as well as anyone could have I reckon. The couple seemed happy enough to give their reasons behind their decisions.

As for the remark he mad after (not made personally to the couple)

"They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance from their faith

It's a perfectly correct one and not in the slightest disrespectful, if he were to state, "They foolishly think they are gaining reassurance from their faith" maybe so

Obliq wrote: »

c) You are making some quite serious assumptions about how I form my opinions. I am new to any study about atheism/theism. I form my own opinions based on what I see/hear.

Good, and hopefully those opinions aren't clouded by a baffling dislike for Dawkins.

The Bishop! wrote: »

Well, that's a strawman. My own personal dislike of Dawkins patronising manner is not based on whether i think it's fashionable or not to hold that view. Nor is it based on not having read his books or seen his interviews and debates.

So, what exactly is it based on?

The Bishop! wrote: »

How it's righteous indignation to comment on his glaring insensitivity towards that couple i just don't know. Framing it as us being too easily "offended" is not really the way i see it.

You're angry because you reckon Dawkins was wrongly insensitive towards the couple - fits the definition for righteous indignation.

The Bishop! wrote: »

Again a strawman, and you're implying that any criticism of Dawkins or parts of that documentary must be because of a negative bias.
I knew what he was like before seeing it yes, but even if i didn't know him from Adam, would still have said that interview was thoughtless and insensitive.

Really now, so why did you feel the need to post,

The Bishop! wrote: »

Exactly. What an utterly insensitive thing to say.

Can't say i'm surprised mind you but that was really scraping the barrel, even by his condescendingly arrogant standards.

No bias here?

Obliq

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Offering your opinion after not even watching half of it

This was my opinion on why I only watched a 1/4 of it. Not on the program.
"Gave up 1/4 way through and watched some rubbish comedy. Dawkins' patronising was getting to me. Turned off after he said "They think they have found comfort in their belief...." (or very similar). No Dawkins - they have found comfort in their belief. Grrr."
I don't see your problem with me offering my opinion as to why I turned it off. Seems ok to me? No?

You reckoned Dawkins was wrong to state "They think..." Seems pretty righteous to me. I've highlighted the appropriate words.

"They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance from their faith"
Thanks for the actual quote from the program btw. I still reckon he's wrong to say they think they have gained reassurance, when clearly they have, and Dawkins apparent opinion that belief in a religion is stupid shines through here. I too believe religion is all a pile of poo, but I have enough respect for people to think they believe in it for personal reasons and they're entitled to them.

In a programme like this the couple would have been approached beforehand and most likely would have seen the questions aswell. Face to face he handled it as well as anyone could have I reckon. The couple seemed happy enough to give their reasons behind their decisions.

Fair enough, yes I agree. But where I see what was said as disrespectful, you don't, so hopefully we'll agree to disagree.

Good, and hopefully those opinions aren't clouded by a baffling dislike for Dawkins.

Jaysus wept, amn't I entitled to dislike him? What's confusing you here? We don't have to like the same people y'know, just because we're both atheists. I don't like the man's manner - what is unclear about that? I don't like the way he comes across as knowing the truth better than the rest of us (in a condescending fashion). I don't like his voice and I don't even like his dog. Doesn't mean I don't agree with most of what he says, but I just DON'T LIKE HIM. Sorry if that causes you pain.

And for what it's worth, perhaps my opinion on Dawkins, based on how he speaks to people, IS clouded each time I watch him speak to people by my own opinion. That much is probably true. But it's MY opinion.

The Bishop!

Jimoslimos wrote: »

So, what exactly is it based on?

It's based on my observing him over the years. Reading his books, interviews and watching him debate and talk etc.

You're angry because you reckon Dawkins was wrongly insensitive towards the couple - fits the definition for righteous indignation.

Call it what you see fit. I'm not particularly angry.

Really now, so why did you feel the need to post,

Yeah, really now. And who are you to ask that question? It's a thread about Dawkins. Am i not free to post that if it's in line with the charter?

No bias here?

Correct. No bias. Expressing that lack of surprise does not automatically mean bias.

The Bishop!

Obliq wrote: »

[..and I don't even like his dog.

That was a low blow Obliq. How could you? The poor doggy.:)

Obliq

The Bishop! wrote: »

That was a low blow Obliq. How could you? The poor doggy.:)

Gosh, yes. Sorry for any offence caused.....actually - to clear this up quickly, I'd like to clarify that I thought the dog came across very well, but I don't like the breed of dog. But possibly my opinion of the breed is low because I don't like Dawkins? Hmmm. :rolleyes:

TheChizler

Obliq wrote: »

This was my opinion on why I only watched a 1/4 of it. Not on the program.
"Gave up 1/4 way through and watched some rubbish comedy. Dawkins' patronising was getting to me. Turned off after he said "They think they have found comfort in their belief...." (or very similar). No Dawkins - they have found comfort in their belief. Grrr."
I don't see your problem with me offering my opinion as to why I turned it off. Seems ok to me? No?



"They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance from their faith"
Thanks for the actual quote from the program btw. I still reckon he's wrong to say they think they have gained reassurance, when clearly they have, and Dawkins apparent opinion that belief in a religion is stupid shines through here. I too believe religion is all a pile of poo, but I have enough respect for people to think they believe in it for personal reasons and they're entitled to them.



Fair enough, yes I agree. But where I see what was said as disrespectful, you don't, so hopefully we'll agree to disagree.



Jaysus wept, amn't I entitled to dislike him? What's confusing you here? We don't have to like the same people y'know, just because we're both atheists. I don't like the man's manner - what is unclear about that? I don't like the way he comes across as knowing the truth better than the rest of us (in a condescending fashion). I don't like his voice and I don't even like his dog. Doesn't mean I don't agree with most of what he says, but I just DON'T LIKE HIM. Sorry if that causes you pain.

And for what it's worth, perhaps my opinion on Dawkins, based on how he speaks to people, IS clouded each time I watch him speak to people by my own opinion. That much is probably true. But it's MY opinion.

I think the intent might have been that they think God is actually reassuring them directly. It depends on whether you take reassured by religion to mean to get comfort from belief, or to think that they are actually being assured by a supreme being that it will be ok; that its their belief doing the reassuring (true), or thinking that somebody is actually reassuring them (false).

Obliq

TheChizler wrote: »

I think the intent might have been that they think God is actually reassuring them directly. It depends on whether you take reassured by religion to mean to get comfort from belief, or to think that they are actually being assured by a supreme being that it will be ok; that its their belief doing the reassuring (true), or thinking that somebody is actually reassuring them (false).

Hmmm. Thanks for that - yes, someone else tried explaining that to me earlier too. It is entirely possible that I picked that (the intent) up wrong because I think he is a patronising git! It's interesting how the intent comes across, depending on whether you like him or not, eh?

TheChizler

Obliq wrote: »

Hmmm. Thanks for that - yes, someone else tried explaining that to me earlier too. It is entirely possible that I picked that (the intent) up wrong because I think he is a patronising git! It's interesting how the intent comes across, depending on whether you like him or not, eh?

Well he's never one to deny that people can get real reassurance from belief, it would be totally out of character and dishonest for him to claim otherwise, that he knows better how someone is feeling than they themselves.

It would be fair to say that it's a false reassurance, but nobody could deny the emotion they're experiencing.

Obliq

TheChizler wrote: »

It would be fair to say that it's a false reassurance, but nobody could deny the emotion they're experiencing.

Not sure that's true y'see. To my mind, you either are reassured or you are not. So their reassurance (from their belief) is genuine. In fact, that's exactly why I got so snotty about Dawkins saying "They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance from their faith".

That I believe their religion is wrong and claims that god exists are false, does not make their belief false. Their belief is real and true for them.

If you see what I mean?

nagirrac

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I'm struggling to see where he was disrespectful or insensitive though. In a programme like this the couple would have been approached beforehand and most likely would have seen the questions aswell. Face to face he handled it as well as anyone could have I reckon. The couple seemed happy enough to give their reasons behind their decisions.

If you don't think it was insensitive then perhaps you need to watch it again. There's nothing wrong with the subject matter, it is how he posed the questions. Here are the exact words used:
"Did it occur to you that the total sum of suffering would be much less if you drew a line under it then and restarted your lives, you have to draw a line under it now. Why did you decide to go on for several more months".
This shows an unbelievable ignorance towards Catholic belief without even going into the condescending nature of the remark. A Catholic couple who take their religion seriously do not have the option of abortion in this situation. He then compounded the error by going for the "hoping for a miracle" line, another insensitive remark and again showing ignorance of Catholic belief which is "it's not my decision to terminate".
Yes they may have been hoping for a miracle as well but the main point is they did not have the option of abortion (which I am sure he knows well but wanted to make his "religion is irrational" argument anyway).
As for how he could have handled it better he could have said "could you outline your reasoning for how you decided to proceed" if he had truly been interested in their beliefs.

nagirrac

Obliq wrote: »

Not sure that's true y'see. To my mind, you either are reassured or you are not. So their reassurance (from their belief) is genuine. In fact, that's exactly why I got so snotty about Dawkins saying "They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance from their faith".

That I believe their religion is wrong and claims that god exists are false, does not make their belief false. Their belief is real and true for them.

If you see what I mean?

Exactly, and this is the point atheists miss over and over. What people believe is a personal issue, and people with faith are greatly offended by atheists telling them what they believe is wrong. Long before organized religions were formed man believed in dualism, the distinction between spirit and the physical. The belief in an afterlife is common to most ancient cultures. What is wrong with people having faith that some aspect of their consciousness survives and that they will be reunited with their loved ones after death, and what exactly is gained by attempts to shoot holes in why people believe that at a personal level?

ShooterSF

Obliq wrote: »

Not sure that's true y'see. To my mind, you either are reassured or you are not. So their reassurance (from their belief) is genuine. In fact, that's exactly why I got so snotty about Dawkins saying "They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance from their faith".

That I believe their religion is wrong and claims that god exists are false, does not make their belief false. Their belief is real and true for them.

If you see what I mean?

Yes but it's also tied into their religious belief. What if one day one of them as is very possible loses their faith in religion.

Actually I think Dawkins handled it well enough but was probably in a lose lose situation and actually he steered away from the genuine concern over the undue pain the baby may have been put through because that would have been insensitive to discuss with the parents and would have been better in a hypothetical discussion.

Also out of curiosity (for who ever said it) were they definitely Catholic?

TheChizler

I do see and I agree that the reassurance is genuine. When I say false I mean it's genuine reassurance gained from a false premise. Like how you could get genuine reassurance from a driver crashing into you admitting fault and giving you his insurance details, before it turns out the policy doesn't exist.