Unknown metal object

pueblo

ZX7R wrote: »

Could it be an urn for holding oil for a catholic baptism saw something like it on time team one.
just an idea:o

You are not too far off, the expert who looked at it felt it was most likely a Roman Balsamarium (used for holding perfume/balm).

The problem is that while it is the right shape and size for a Roman Balsamarium these are virtually unknown in metal, being found usually in glass or pottery.

Hopefully the XRF scan will be able to shed some light on the metallurgical composition of the piece giving a good indication of date.

Mountainsandh

Incidentally, I'm shocked to see the number of sales/auctions out there, and the artefacts sold therein. I'm just really naive, to me all these things belong in museums for everyone to see, it's shocking to see what's traded : prehistoric arrow heads, roman artefacts :eek:
Just keep coming across these sites on my google images searches.

I'm beginning to see another dimension to the metal detectors' debate allright.

On topic, Pueblo, on this page, there is a bronze object #32. Not very similar, but with a "funny" spike. But there's also a bronze lamp (makes more sense for a lamp).
http://www.he-artefakte.de/Weitere%20Angebote/Weitere%20AngeboteE.html

interesting drill hole in the lamp too

Pat Mustard

Mountainsandh wrote: »

all these things belong in museums

http://www.hark.com/clips/ckyyxscpjc-belongs-in-a-museum

Doom

Its the Mayans key to the end of the world....don't touch it. :eek:

Mountainsandh

The Mustard I don't know where the sound clip is from.
But ehmm... ok.

Pat Mustard

Indiana Jones. Couldn't find full video clip in english.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmUhaOdp7n8

Wibbs

Mountainsandh wrote: »

The Mustard I don't know where the sound clip is from.
But ehmm... ok.

I think it's from one of the Indiana Jones films M. That said, while I do take your point, amateur collections have made up a substantial percentage of what ends up in museums and many amateurs have made major strides in various scientific disciplines. That I don't object to so much. "Treasure hunters" yea, but in the drive to get rid of those we may throw the baby out with the bathwater at times. Paleontology is a science that has had huge amateur input. Astronomy even more so and they're not unique. IMHO There should be some allowances made in this regard*. PLus most of the ebay antiquities are fake as feck, or are so common as to be of zero scientific interest. IMHO and IME really scientifically valuable stuff in online auctions are very rare. "Prehistoric" arrow heads? Common as muck. Roman items, at least half and that's being generous are fake. Id not worry about that so much.





*I suppose I'd have to say that as just on one point I've one of the largest collections of Neandertal lithics outside colleges and most defo museums in this country. I'd put money down that if I offered said collection to official bodies here I'd likely get short shrift. Hell, even as a fossil collecting kid I got short shrift when I presented some specimens, even though they were better examples than those they had on display.

Mountainsandh

As it happens I'm French, The Mustard (Dijon, I hope), so the French version is just fine

Wibbs, that's the beauty of being a total ignoramus, I would probably faint at your collection .

Funnily enough, I'd have no interest in collecting anything myself. I'd love to be able to "handle" stuff for a bit rather than just seeing it allright.

But I'd say it's a different story if you find something yourself, and no museum wants it. I'd say in that instance I would probably start collecting items, rather than sell them on Ebay.

Wibbs

Mountainsandh wrote: »

But I'd say it's a different story if you find something yourself, and no museum wants it. I'd say in that instance I would probably start collecting items, rather than sell them on Ebay.

Yea ebay and the like have changed things a lot. Gives dodgy people a way to sell dodgy stuff with very dodgy provenance. I'd very rarely buy that kinda thing on ebay unless I knew the seller and the item(s) were coming from old collections. Sometimes stuff comes from museums that have shut down or are disposing of stuff of little scientific merit.

On top of that though people think they are many antiquities aren't that rare. Take roman items on sale. Now at least half are fake, but the ones that aren't were very common items back in the day and the roman's were around throughout Europe for the guts of a 1000 years so there's a lot of that stuff about. EG how many roman coins were minted? Likely millions so out of context stuff is essentially "worthless" though gets good money on ebay. I remember swanning around on a Greek island and there were shards of ancient pottery all over the place, all homeware type stuff. Egyptian stuff is even more faked. I'd reckon at least two thirds of it out there is fake. Some of it laughably so. Some well known actual bricks and mortar dealer's stock is entirely fake(one springs readily to mind). There are a load of fakes coming out of the far east of late too. Even in stone tools I've seen a lot of fakes on ebay, or waste products from tool manufacture sold as tools in themselves. Even well known auctions houses and museums have been caught out.

TBH the tacky fakes don't worry me so much. For me it means the real deal is more likely to stay in the ground or on museums or college collections and your average punter is happy thinking he or she has the real deal so that market is covered.

The guys digging on sites to sell on ebay and the like are the bigger worry. Ebay will do little about it. I know a couple of dealers have been reported in the past and nothing seemed to happen.

slowburner

Two sellers were investigated by the NMI as a direct result of the attention of Boards.ie members.
One was dealt with, the other is an ongoing, and serious investigation.

dr gonzo

slowburner wrote: »

Two sellers were investigated by the NMI as a direct result of the attention of Boards.ie members.
One was dealt with, the other is an ongoing, and serious investigation.

Great news. The national monuments act is one of the few ways that Ireland is archaeologically progressive.

TheMilkyPirate

Interesting thread, Subscribed

Mountainsandh

ahhh now baraca. And here's me clicking straight away thinking there was an update .

Can't wait !

any news Pueblo ?

pueblo

Mountainsandh wrote: »

ahhh now baraca. And here's me clicking straight away thinking there was an update .

Can't wait !

any news Pueblo ?

No news still waiting to hear when it's going for the xrf scan. Very curious to know outcome now!

markesmith

In for the win. Apologies in advance Mountainsandh

pueblo

Just an update, the XRF scanner is currently being repaired so no idea when that will happen, hopefully soon.

I have been in touch with my contact at the NMI about the piece and she has been talking to a Roman specialist who is very keen to have a look.

Damn suspense :-)

slowburner

Some interesting stuff on RTE player about the Nore.
Skip to 3m 50s for the historical bit.
http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10103312/

roughneck

posy vase 1890ish

pueblo

roughneck wrote: »

posy vase 1890ish

If it is a vase how did it stand? It will not stand unsupported on its narrow foot.

pueblo

finally it's going for it's scan next week...the hour of judgement approacheth

Reoil

How soon after the scan will they know?

pueblo

Reoil wrote: »

How soon after the scan will they know?

No idea..I presume, but don't know, that once all the metal & alloy make up is known then a reasonably accurate estimate can be made about it's age. I think that's how an xrf scan is used to 'date' metal... anyone else?

It's been with the scanner man over a week now so...soon...soon :P

pueblo

Ok so today I heard back on the xrf scan and.... it's most likely 19th century ... this one really had me going :-)

“I analysed the artefact by xrf this morning and also examined it under magnification. It is made from 99% zinc with traces of copper, iron and nickel and the vessel was plated with copper; small areas of this survive around the base and handles. Copper-plated zinc would indicate that this was fabricated sometime in the latter part of the 19th century and it may have been part of a decorative monument or architectural sculpture. As far as I know pure zinc only emerged in the early 19th century so it is unlikely to be Roman but you could always send an image to Dr XXXX in XXX to be certain”

Coles

It's been an interesting journey none the less!

Mountainsandh

Yes, and it still has a history ! What was it used for ?
Was it meant to be a copy of an ancient artefact, and failed on some levels, thus the confusion, or was it a novel concept (at the time) of mixing the old with the new ?
I have one of these books that simply reproduce an old catalogue from the 1850s or so (argos catalogue before its time !) with beautiful illustrations and fantastic objects from posh ornaments to very useful every day gadgets... might try and have a look for something similar.

Thanks for the updates and for sharing Pueblo.

Maudi

pueblo wrote: »

Ok so today I heard back on the xrf scan and.... it's most likely 19th century ... this one really had me going :-)

“I analysed the artefact by xrf this morning and also examined it under magnification. It is made from 99% zinc with traces of copper, iron and nickel and the vessel was plated with copper; small areas of this survive around the base and handles. Copper-plated zinc would indicate that this was fabricated sometime in the latter part of the 19th century and it may have been part of a decorative monument or architectural sculpture. As far as I know pure zinc only emerged in the early 19th century so it is unlikely to be Roman but you could always send an image to Dr XXXX in XXX to be certain”

who cares what it is pueblo.the excitement of waiting to find out was the magical part..thanks for that.

slowburner

I guess that's disappointing for you Pueblo.
To be honest, considering the context and the material, its condition was far too good for it to have been anything other than modern.

Don't get disheartened!
You have a great eye, and there's plenty more to find.

pueblo

Thanks for all the replies and input on this from everyone and no not at all disheartened! Mind blowing what detrius is knocking around our waterways!

Just on the assessment of the piece stating that pure zinc only emerged in the 19th century I have had a cursory dig around and it seems that the statement is not correct. From what I have read, and I stand to be corrected, pure metallic zinc has been known from the second half of the first millennium BC, though not in these parts.
http://www.ancient-asia-journal.com/article/view/aa.06112/23

This doesn't make the object any more likely to be roman or iron age but does it mean that it can't be ruled out?

Wibbs

I was surprised at the zinc comment alright. It's been around for quite a while. Maybe they're talking about copper plating zinc. That AFAIK is a much more recent technology.

slowburner

pueblo wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies and input on this from everyone and no not at all disheartened! Mind blowing what detrius is knocking around our waterways!

Just on the assessment of the piece stating that pure zinc only emerged in the 19th century I have had a cursory dig around and it seems that the statement is not correct. From what I have read, and I stand to be corrected, pure metallic zinc has been known from the second half of the first millennium BC, though not in these parts.
http://www.ancient-asia-journal.com/article/view/aa.06112/23

This doesn't make the object any more likely to be roman or iron age but does it mean that it can't be ruled out?

Can copper plating be done without electricity?