Increments to be paid to highest earners

Jaysoose

This is truly depressing..legislation can be brought forward to raid the private pension pots at a moments notice but the same cant be done to prevent the payment of Payrises of these public servants because these millions would be better served being paid to the highest paid in the public service?.

I look forward to the minsters telling us about "reality" and "putting our shoulders to the wheel" when middle earners are decimated yet again in the budget.

In all seriousness how is this justified when people are struggling to make end meets in all sectors of our society. The argument that its only millions and the savings would not be substantial is vile, how many special needs assistants would these millions provide?


http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/howlin-freezing-pay-rises-for-big-earners-would-not-make-substantial-savings-570081.html

Lambsbread

"Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves"

I think that we should be trying to save money everywhere possible, no matter if is "only" a few million.

bbam

Lambsbread wrote: »

"Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves"

I think that we should be trying to save money everywhere possible, no matter if is "only" a few million.

Indeed..
There is also the aspect of Leadership, principle and example.. Not doing this is just demonstrating weak government, they are missing the point.

Godge

Wow, another public service bashing thread. Let's sit back and watch the usual suspects go after this.

Lambsbread

I wouldn't say this is public sector bashing, but more so the governments failure to reduce costs.

At a time when everyone in the country seems to be getting squeezed a little more (higher tax, higher mortgage rates, higher gas/electricity prices etc.) those at the top still get pay increases. At a time when we are looking at a nasty budget, costs should be cut to make government more efficient to reduce the burden on the taxpayer.

Some of this will have to come from public sector pay cuts / job cuts but that is a fact rather than a bashing.

bamboozle

Lambsbread wrote: »

"Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves"

I think that we should be trying to save money everywhere possible, no matter if is "only" a few million.

that expression should be tatooed into the arms of our government ministers.

those increments are a complete joke.

Sleepy

It's a complete and utter farce that increments have been paid since 2008 tbh.

The countries bankrupt and most of those in the private sector have lost their jobs, received paycuts or have been on pay freezes since then.

Sure, some people in some industries that are doing well are still getting raises but private employers aren't giving out raises whilst running at a loss and regardless of whether you're currently working in the public/private sector, just leaving education or are currently unemployed, you're free to apply for jobs in these companies.

Jaysoose

Godge wrote: »

Wow, another public service bashing thread. Let's sit back and watch the usual suspects go after this.

You can choose to ignore the thread if you like, others thankfully are willing to discuss whats happening in the country and the blatant disregard for our financial situation by ministers et al.

Like it or not people are entitled to their opinion on this.

Flex

Sleepy wrote: »

It's a complete and utter farce that increments have been paid since 2008 tbh.

The countries bankrupt and most of those in the private sector have lost their jobs, received paycuts or have been on pay freezes since then.

Sure, some people in some industries that are doing well are still getting raises but private employers aren't giving out raises whilst running at a loss and regardless of whether you're currently working in the public/private sector, just leaving education or are currently unemployed, you're free to apply for jobs in these companies.

No no, Sleepy. Ya see, increments arent actually increases in pay, if someone is receiving incremental pay increases it means theyre on a pay freeze; its only actually a pay increase if the pay scale increases along with the incremental rise. So they dont cost the government anything to pay!

Regards the article, I dont think it would be fair to stop increments for people at the top and leave them in place for everyone else. Along with that, (based on the ESRI report) pay rates for people closer to the top of the Public Sector are more in line with, and possibly even behind at this point, the private sector. The excessive premiums in pay occur at the lower levels of the pay scale.

bamboozle

Flex wrote: »

No no, Sleepy. Ya see, increments arent actually increases in pay, if someone is receiving incremental pay increases it means theyre on a pay freeze; its only actually a pay increase if the pay scale increases along with the incremental rise. So they dont cost the government anything to pay!

Regards the article, I dont think it would be fair to stop increments for people at the top and leave them in place for everyone else. Along with that, (based on the ESRI report) pay rates for people closer to the top of the Public Sector are more in line with, and possibly even behind at this point, the private sector. The excessive premiums in pay occur at the lower levels of the pay scale.

it all depends how 'top' is defined, there are thousands of middle management pen pushers in the public service, mostly in the HSE where they came from the local health authorities being merged from 7 into 1 which resulted in up to 7 people with similar jobs titles, roles etc.

no-one over 50k should be earning increments from an employer which has to borrow €2.5m per hour to pay them.

Sleepy

Though it's fine for a low level pen pusher to be paid 30k+ when the equivalent job in the private sector would attract a salary of 22/24k with none of the pension entitlements, flexi-time etc.?

The employment practices in the PS are way out of line with the real world. Brilliant performers are woefully under paid and absolute slackers are paid the same as their competent colleagues (or often more as they're further along the increment scale or happened to be employed prior to a set date).

Head The Wall

bamboozle wrote: »

no-one over 50k should be earning increments from an employer which has to borrow €2.5m per hour to pay them.

Fixed that for you

Manach

If it could be objectively shown that the group under review for the increments had implement policies which pushed efficiencies and saved taxpayers' money - then such increments could be justified.

ParkRunner

Regardless of the morality of these increments they were incorporated into agreed employment contracts. I wonder what luck the same people would have if they went into AIB and said they are not going to pay the increase in their mortgage brought about by the interest rate hike because they didn't have the finances available to pay? Cooperation (through the Croke park agreement) rather than conflict is in my opinion the best way to achieve savings.

tayto lover

This is just what IBEC want. Lower the Public Sector wages and entitlements and then the Private Sector can point to that and do likewise. More profits !!

Jaysoose

EF wrote: »

Regardless of the morality of these increments they were incorporated into agreed employment contracts. I wonder what luck the same people would have if they went into AIB and said they are not going to pay the increase in their mortgage brought about by the interest rate hike because they didn't have the finances available to pay? Cooperation (through the Croke park agreement) rather than conflict is in my opinion the best way to achieve savings.

The Croke park agreement is used as justification here but it can be argued that by not implementing the performance management system correctly that forms a large part of the CPA the agreement has been broken by the public service continuously and as such is now redundant.

This has been admitted to be the case by the minister in charge, so we have a situation on one hand the CPA is clearly being ignored by the public service when it doesnt suit yet on the other hand they hide behind it to justify these absurd Payrises.

Co-operation at work indeed.

ParkRunner

Jaysoose wrote: »

The Croke park agreement is used as justification here but it can be argued that by not implementing the performance management system correctly that forms a large part of the CPA the agreement has been broken by the public service continuously and as such is now redundant.

This has been admitted to be the case by the minister in charge, so we have a situation on one hand the CPA is clearly being ignored by the public service when it doesnt suit yet on the other hand they hide behind it to justify these absurd Payrises.

Co-operation at work indeed.

I dont think anyone will disagree that the performance management system needs improving in the public sector, however this only forms one aspect of the Croke Park Agreement. Indeed the independent implementation body is satisfied that the CPA is being implemented and has achieved savings.

The 'Minister in charge' has too endorsed the CPA and is trying to use same to achieve yet more savings..or do you have an authoritative link to back your claim?

Jaysoose

EF wrote: »

I dont think anyone will disagree that the performance management system needs improving in the public sector, however this only forms one aspect of the Croke Park Agreement. Indeed the independent implementation body is satisfied that the CPA is being implemented and has achieved savings.

The 'Minister in charge' has too endorsed the CPA and is trying to use same to achieve yet more savings..or do you have an authoritative link to back your claim?

The CPA has been in place since 2010, the system is the same and increments have been paid out since when its been admitted that the performance management system is not being applied correctly.

The minister can make all the statements alluding to the cpa delivering changes but when it is being at present used to defend increments to people that may or may not have been awarded incorrect performance scores it imo becomes invalid.

So we have almost two years of incorrect scores being handed out while the CPA has been in place.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0726/performance-reforms-for-civil-servants-announced-business.html

Sleepy

How do you co-operatively reduce the wages of those we're overpaying?
How do you co-operatively reverse the nonsensical two-tier pay scales?

Neither of these are things the unions will co-operate on.

As it stands, the government are the cowering child in the school-yard asking the union bullies to please let them have their ball back instead of just smacking them in the mouth and taking it. Sometimes conflict is the only way to achieve the desired result.

pom pom snaz peeler

Sleepy wrote: »

How do you co-operatively reduce the wages of those we're overpaying?
How do you co-operatively reverse the nonsensical two-tier pay scales?

Neither of these are things the unions will co-operate on.

As it stands, the government are the cowering child in the school-yard asking the union bullies to please let them have their ball back instead of just smacking them in the mouth and taking it. Sometimes conflict is the only way to achieve the desired result.

dam straight..... but as opposed to a smack in the mouth a kick in the Bollo* may be better!

Idbatterim

If core pay isnt touched, and who knows whether it will be or not. PS wages should be left untouched for years, let inflation eat into them and bring them to slowly back to normality, same with the OAP.

Lambsbread

Idbatterim wrote: »

If core pay isnt touched, and who knows whether it will be or not. PS wages should be left untouched for years, let inflation eat into them and bring them to slowly back to normality, same with the OAP.

The problem with this approach is that it may take years to rectify. Back when we had our own currency we could create inflation to speed up this process. But at least a freeze would be a start!

Jaysoose

Idbatterim wrote: »

If core pay isnt touched, and who knows whether it will be or not. PS wages should be left untouched for years, let inflation eat into them and bring them to slowly back to normality, same with the OAP.

To be honest at this stage of the game im going to say core pay wont be touched and increments paid while services are sacrificed. We are at the point were the government have tried to cut services to the needy but had to reverse them so obviously their backs are against the wall.

deise blue

Sleepy wrote: »

How do you co-operatively reduce the wages of those we're overpaying?
How do you co-operatively reverse the nonsensical two-tier pay scales?

Neither of these are things the unions will co-operate on.

As it stands, the government are the cowering child in the school-yard asking the union bullies to please let them have their ball back instead of just smacking them in the mouth and taking it. Sometimes conflict is the only way to achieve the desired result.

A conflict that this Government is anxious to avoid at all costs as they are aware that the Unions have been given sufficient time to formulate a plan of action that will minimise the effects on their member's pay & maximise the difficulties in operating the machinery of the state.

Sleepy

Simple fix: pass emergency legislation making Public Sector Unions proscribed organisations and granting the government the power to replace any employee that strikes.

Heavy handed and sinister? yes. Constitutional? Probably not. Scare the bejaysus out of Union leaders whose insane salaries might come under thread, definitely.

That said, I'd be in favour of taking them on the traditional way. I very much doubt that they have the funds to survive any length of protracted strike pay and from personal experience of working for PS clients, I'd wager that many of the better staff wouldn't join the strike anyway. The most militant PS union members are almost without exception the ones whose productivity is lowest.

deise blue

Sleepy wrote: »

Simple fix: pass emergency legislation making Public Sector Unions proscribed organisations and granting the government the power to replace any employee that strikes.

Heavy handed and sinister? yes. Constitutional? Probably not. Scare the bejaysus out of Union leaders whose insane salaries might come under thread, definitely.

Never going to happen - indeed both Government parties have promised in the plan for Government to enshrine legislation benefiting Unions - our Ambassador to the UN , Mr . Gerard Corr ,confirmed to the Court of Human rights in Geneva that Ireland will introduce legislation ensuring that Union rights in Ireland are brought into line with human rights standards across the EU.

As a result Employers will have to recognise the collective bargaining rights of Unions effectively ending the current position whereby employees can join a Trade Union but the Employers do not have to recognise or negotiate with that Union.

Godge

Sleepy wrote: »

Simple fix: pass emergency legislation making Public Sector Unions proscribed organisations and granting the government the power to replace any employee that strikes.

Heavy handed and sinister? yes. Constitutional? Probably not. Scare the bejaysus out of Union leaders whose insane salaries might come under thread, definitely.

That said, I'd be in favour of taking them on the traditional way. I very much doubt that they have the funds to survive any length of protracted strike pay and from personal experience of working for PS clients, I'd wager that many of the better staff wouldn't join the strike anyway. The most militant PS union members are almost without exception the ones whose productivity is lowest.

That is completely unrealistic. Not only would it be unconstitutional, it would also be against EU law. A bit silly to be proposing something that you know won't work.

This type of post only proves my point that these public sector threads are only started for one reason - to give people a reason to rant and rant about the public sector.

I saw a report today where the Minister said that he couldn't touch increments for those over €100k. He gave the reason that for a cut such as that to be constitutional, it would require:

(1) to be generally applied;
(2) to make a significant saving;

Nobody in this thread has even attempted to address this argument either by pointing out legal cases or argument that makes a different position logical or producing figures that show the cost is significant enough to make a difference to the State's financial position.

Instead we have had all the usual rants about the public service. Is there anyone who can make a reasoned argument addressing these points or are you all like the bloated football fan shouting at the television for the manager to make a subsitution two minutes before the target of your anger scores the first goal of a hat-trick?

Make some real arguments.

ParkRunner

Sleepy wrote: »

How do you co-operatively reduce the wages of those we're overpaying?
How do you co-operatively reverse the nonsensical two-tier pay scales?

Neither of these are things the unions will co-operate on.

A standard way is to have additional unpaid leave. It regularly happens in the private sector. Such a scheme for the public sector was mooted before the CPA but was shot down by the Indo brigade

jfinnerty

Godge wrote: »

That is completely unrealistic. Not only would it be unconstitutional, it would also be against EU law. A bit silly to be proposing something that you know won't work.

This type of post only proves my point that these public sector threads are only started for one reason - to give people a reason to rant and rant about the public sector.

I saw a report today where the Minister said that he couldn't touch increments for those over €100k. He gave the reason that for a cut such as that to be constitutional, it would require:

(1) to be generally applied;
(2) to make a significant saving;

Nobody in this thread has even attempted to address this argument either by pointing out legal cases or argument that makes a different position logical or producing figures that show the cost is significant enough to make a difference to the State's financial position.

Instead we have had all the usual rants about the public service. Is there anyone who can make a reasoned argument addressing these points or are you all like the bloated football fan shouting at the television for the manager to make a subsitution two minutes before the target of your anger scores the first goal of a hat-trick?

Make some real arguments.

i agree. i feel that in this country there is a lack of knowledge and understanding of employment laws and european laws which effect employees. although there is a need for savings there is also a need to protect the pay and conditions of employees. with the croke park agreement there has been significant changes to work practices for example the changes to the garda roster which has put more gardai on the streets. let us not forget what occured in 1913 with the lockout when irish people fought for these rights.
alot of people talk about 1916 and this era including politicans who just use it for publicity. 1916 was not only a fight for freedom but it was a socialist fight to break away from capitalism and to create an equal society.

Warden13

jfinnerty wrote: »

Godge wrote: »

That is completely unrealistic. Not only would it be unconstitutional, it would also be against EU law. A bit silly to be proposing something that you know won't work.

This type of post only proves my point that these public sector threads are only started for one reason - to give people a reason to rant and rant about the public sector.

I saw a report today where the Minister said that he couldn't touch increments for those over €100k. He gave the reason that for a cut such as that to be constitutional, it would require:

(1) to be generally applied;
(2) to make a significant saving;

Nobody in this thread has even attempted to address this argument either by pointing out legal cases or argument that makes a different position logical or producing figures that show the cost is significant enough to make a difference to the State's financial position.

Instead we have had all the usual rants about the public service. Is there anyone who can make a reasoned argument addressing these points or are you all like the bloated football fan shouting at the television for the manager to make a subsitution two minutes before the target of your anger scores the first goal of a hat-trick?

Make some real arguments.

i agree. i feel that in this country there is a lack of knowledge and understanding of employment laws and european laws which effect employees. although there is a need for savings there is also a need to protect the pay and conditions of employees. with the croke park agreement there has been significant changes to work practices for example the changes to the garda roster which has put more gardai on the streets. let us not forget what occured in 1913 with the lockout when irish people fought for these rights.
alot of people talk about 1916 and this era including politicans who just use it for publicity. 1916 was not only a fight for freedom but it was a socialist fight to break away from capitalism and to create an equal society.

Give ibec and isme something to cry about get all public sector workers to boycott ibec and isme members see how long it will take them to soften their cough and stop berating all union members and banks also need to be put in their place all public sector workers should with draw their wages from the banks the minute they are paid only leave enough in to cover their direct debits and mortages this way your credit rating cannot be affected ps the government has garanteed the banks money so when we all withdraw our money at the same time from the banks there will be no shortage of cash and then we can all go to the British multiples to spend our cash and watch the profits leave the country in your face vested interests

SeanW

Godge wrote: »

Instead we have had all the usual rants about the public service.

If the PS weren't a pampered class who expect to be immune from the pay cuts and compulsory job losses experienced by everyone else, there wouldn't be so many PS bashing threads.

tayto lover

SeanW wrote: »

If the PS weren't a pampered class who expect to be immune from the pay cuts and compulsory job losses experienced by everyone else, there wouldn't be so many PS bashing threads.

Are you foolish enough to think that cuts will stop with the PS? The heads of industry will see that as a chance to lower wages in the Private Sector too and you have IBEC and ISME fighting their corner. The big boys have to be kept happy.

Warden13

SeanW wrote: »

Godge wrote: »

Instead we have had all the usual rants about the public service.

If the PS weren't a pampered class who expect to be immune from the pay cuts and compulsory job losses experienced by everyone else, there wouldn't be so many PS bashing threads.

A another entrepreneur from the boom times a real business man or a subby carpenter who thought he was charging €20 to put a screw into a wall

deise blue

SeanW wrote: »

If the PS weren't a pampered class who expect to be immune from the pay cuts and compulsory job losses experienced by everyone else, there wouldn't be so many PS bashing threads.

The PS have suffered pay cuts averaging 15% but thankfully not compulsory redundancies , it is also factually incorrect to state that " everyone " else has experienced pays cuts & compulsory job losses - talk about generalisations !

Japer

SeanW wrote: »

If the PS weren't a pampered class who expect to be immune from the pay cuts and compulsory job losses experienced by everyone else, there wouldn't be so many PS bashing threads.

+1.

Until public service pay, pensions, holidays, sickies etc come back in to line with those in the private sector, morale among most people in the country will not improve. Our middle + upper public servants are paid and pensioned far too much, end of story.

Warden13

Japer wrote: »

SeanW wrote: »

If the PS weren't a pampered class who expect to be immune from the pay cuts and compulsory job losses experienced by everyone else, there wouldn't be so many PS bashing threads.

+1.

Until public service pay, pensions, holidays, sickies etc come back in to line with those in the private sector, morale among most people in the country will not improve. Our middle + upper public servants are paid and pensioned far too much, end of story.

The private sector must be great loads of money,the moral high ground and a medical card

tayto lover

Japer wrote: »

+1.

Until public service pay, pensions, holidays, sickies etc come back in to line with those in the private sector, morale among most people in the country will not improve. Our middle + upper public servants are paid and pensioned far too much, end of story.

You need to examine what has happened to many in the Private Sector of which I am one. I have not suffered one bit and have had no cuts and neither have many I know. Moral is very high where I work.
I think there are many trolls on these threads just mischief making.

poeticseraphim

bamboozle wrote: »

that expression should be tatooed into the arms of our government ministers.

those increments are a complete joke.

Nothing in politics is a joke.


She gave priority to academic needs in schools, and imposed public expenditure cuts on the state education system, resulting in the abolition of free milk for schoolchildren aged seven to eleven. She held that few children would suffer if schools were charged for milk, but she agreed to provide younger children with a third of a pint daily, for nutritional purposes.Her decision provoked a storm of protest from the Labour party and the press, leading to the moniker "Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher".Thatcher wrote in her autobiography: "I learned a valuable lesson [from the experience]. I had incurred the maximum of political odium for the minimum of political benefit."


This is probably a similar instance why incure such difficulty when you extact so little. They will have at some point cut wages or staff not increments. Why cause such trouble and resentment for no real actual gain. You have a certain political expendature in terms of how pissed off you can make people. Spent it on things hat make a difference.


The problem with this Govt is they are hesitant (or seemingly so ) to make a difference in reform of the civil service in big ways and spen timd considering guff like this for months on end....NOW THAT IS A WASTE.

woodoo

SeanW wrote: »

If the PS weren't a pampered class who expect to be immune from the pay cuts and compulsory job losses experienced by everyone else, there wouldn't be so many PS bashing threads.

PS had pay cuts

SeanW

Warden13 wrote: »

Give ibec and isme something to cry about get all public sector workers to boycott ibec and isme members see how long it will take ... we can all go to the British multiples to spend our cash and watch the profits leave the country in your face vested interests

Go right ahead! I double dare you - the finances of the State would collapse and then - at minimum - the Croke Park Agreement would be thrown out the window!

tayto lover wrote: »

Are you foolish enough to think that cuts will stop with the PS? The heads of industry will see that as a chance to lower wages in the Private Sector too and you have IBEC and ISME fighting their corner. The big boys have to be kept happy.

Who do you think pays the PS pay bill? Private sector workers, who have been squeezed by the recession, and are going to be squeezed more to pay for the P.S.

The "heads of industry" don't need an excuse to cut jobs and wages - the recession that the PS has been shielded from has given them all the cause needed.

Japer

tayto lover wrote: »

I have not suffered one bit and have had no cuts and neither have many I know.

You have not suffered one bit? Have'nt you had tax increases, collapse in the value of your house ( if you have one ), collapse in the value of any shares you had ( look at the ISEQ compared to say ten years ago )? If you work in the private sector your average pay, pension, sickies etc are much less than in the public sector whgich your taxes support. Bet your partner is working in the public sector and like many whose partners are working in the public sector, he/she is supporting you. Pray the IMF will keep lending money to the country to support our high public sector wages and pensions. And pray a miracle will happen so that your grandchildren will not be repaying that money, with interest.

Warden13

SeanW wrote: »

Warden13 wrote: »

Give ibec and isme something to cry about get all public sector workers to boycott ibec and isme members see how long it will take ... we can all go to the British multiples to spend our cash and watch the profits leave the country in your face vested interests

Go right ahead! I double dare you - the finances of the State would collapse and then - at minimum - the Croke Park Agreement would be thrown out the window!

tayto lover wrote: »

Are you foolish enough to think that cuts will stop with the PS? The heads of industry will see that as a chance to lower wages in the Private Sector too and you have IBEC and ISME fighting their corner. The big boys have to be kept happy.

Who do you think pays the PS pay bill? Private sector workers, who have been squeezed by the recession, and are going to be squeezed more to pay for the P.S.

The "heads of industry" don't need an excuse to cut jobs and wages - the recession that the PS has been shielded from has given them all the cause needed.

Being a ps does that not make me self employed paying taxes

tayto lover

Japer wrote: »

You have not suffered one bit? Have'nt you had tax increases, collapse in the value of your house ( if you have one ), collapse in the value of any shares you had ( look at the ISEQ compared to say ten years ago )? If you work in the private sector your average pay, pension, sickies etc are much less than in the public sector whgich your taxes support. Bet your partner is working in the public sector and like many whose partners are working in the public sector, he/she is supporting you. Pray the IMF will keep lending money to the country to support our high public sector wages and pensions. And pray a miracle will happen so that your grandchildren will not be repaying that money, with interest.

My partner does not work in the Public Sector. She is a housewife.
Have those working in the Public Sector not suffered tax increases and drops in the value of their properties too? My wages are very much higher than those in the Public Sector too, I have compared with them on several occasions when fools have suggested that it was the case.
Have they not had pay cuts already?
Were the Bankers, Property Speculators, Accountants etc working in the Public Sector?

tayto lover

SeanW wrote: »

Go right ahead! I double dare you - the finances of the State would collapse and then - at minimum - the Croke Park Agreement would be thrown out the window!

Who do you think pays the PS pay bill? Private sector workers, who have been squeezed by the recession, and are going to be squeezed more to pay for the P.S.

The "heads of industry" don't need an excuse to cut jobs and wages - the recession that the PS has been shielded from has given them all the cause needed.

Are the PS not contributing through taxes, VAT etc ?

Japer

tayto lover wrote: »

My wages are very much higher than those in the Public Sector too

you are very lucky so, given average public sector salary is 49k a year. Most people in the private sector earn an awful lot less than that, and do not have the same pension to look forward to etc

tayto lover

Japer wrote: »

you are very lucky so, given average public sector salary is 49k a year. Most people in the private sector earn an awful lot less than that, and do not have the same pension to look forward to etc

It depends on how you define "average" though.
Average can mean anything. You should do a proper "like for like" analysis. Like Heads of Dept against similar in both sectors.

ardmacha

Ah yes, the single transferable anti PS thread.

the usual untruthful contentions
- PS have had no pay cuts (they have)
- "everyone" else has had pay cuts (they haven't)
- "everyone" else is still having pay cuts (in 2012 many more got increases than cuts)
- "everyone" is suffering because of taxes, interest rate increases, bad summer weather etc (exactly, everyone, including the PS, suffers these things).
- payments to some individuals for increased experience are an outrage (of course don't mention that this is happening in all sectors)

and as always this cacophony of inaccuracies prevents any actual real discussion of any substance in this forum. This in reflected in what passes for the media, so there is no real pressure for government action as most "comment" is nothing more than an unsubstantiated rant based on no or misused data and which lacks credibility to any thinking person.

The truly sad thing is the 4 years into this mess there still seems to be no appreciation of detail nor willingness to analyse things and discriminating discernment seems beyond most people, only mindless chanting with the crowd.

Godge

SeanW wrote: »

If the PS weren't a pampered class who expect to be immune from the pay cuts and compulsory job losses experienced by everyone else, there wouldn't be so many PS bashing threads.

What a silly statement.

If everyone had experienced compulsory job losses, then there would be nobody left working in the private sector:D:D:D.

I have several times in many of these ridiculous threads posted evidence of pay increases in the private sector in 2012 for companies that only froze but didn't cut pay.

Japer

tayto lover wrote: »

It depends on how you define "average" though.

Look up your basic maths book. Its not rocket science;)

4 years in to the crises, average public sector wages here (in this banana republic ) are still nearly double what they are in N. Ireland/Britain.

tayto lover

Godge wrote: »

What a silly statement.

If everyone had experienced compulsory job losses, then there would be nobody left working in the private sector:D:D:D.

I have several times in many of these ridiculous threads posted evidence of pay increases in the private sector in 2012 for companies that only froze but didn't cut pay.

I cannot believe how so many have fallen for the Public v Private thing.

Godge

Japer wrote: »

Look up your basic maths book. Its not rocket science;)

4 years in to the crises, average public sector wages here (in this banana republic ) are still nearly double what they are in N. Ireland/Britain.

Can you produce any evidence to back this up using pay data for 2012 for new entrants to the public sector?

Otherwise your post is just another ill-informed ignorant rant.