Stephen Donnelly, on how the ECB actually owes Ireland €64 billion!

seamus · 08-10-2012 4:52pm

Ghandee wrote: »

Which is exactly what lots of people (including myself) have been arguing about with the govts plans to introduce a property tax.

Just because 'they all have one' doesn't mean we need one.

What's that got to do with this thread?

Ghandee · 08-10-2012 5:01pm

seamus wrote: »

What's that got to do with this thread?

Two things exactly.

The first being that we supposedly had to introduce a property tax 'as a condition of our bailout'.

The second being that if your reasoning that 'just because they do something, doesn't mean we have to do it' is good enough for this thread, surely it contradicts exactly what the pro-property tax have been saying for months as why, as everyone else has a property tax, we should follow suit.

That excuse can't suit one argument but not the other?

seamus · 08-10-2012 5:06pm

Ghandee wrote: »

That excuse can't suit one argument but not the other?

Why not? They're two totally different discussions.
Equally invalid is, "Because they do it, we shouldn't do it". I think you'll find more correctly that what people say is that property tax is a feature of every economy with a wide and stable tax base that currently hasn't got an economy in the ****ter. Therefore if we wish to have a wide and stable tax base, it would make sense to follow their initiatives.

suicide_circus · 08-10-2012 5:13pm

I think Donnelly's arguement lays bare the true colours of the European Union versus the principles on which it was founded.

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2012 5:16pm

So, let me get this straight.

Rather than Ireland being grateful to Europe for bailing us out, Europe should actually be grateful to us for bailing them out, even though it was the mother of all property bubbles, in this country, that actually caused the mess we are in?

It was an Irish mess, made worse by an incompetant Irish government. Why exactly should Hans, Petr, John or Pierre be thanking us?

suicide_circus · 08-10-2012 5:25pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So, let me get this straight.

Rather than Ireland being grateful to Europe for bailing us out, Europe should actually be grateful to us for bailing them out, even though it was the mother of all property bubbles, in this country, that actually caused the mess we are in?

It was an Irish mess, made worse by an incompetant Irish government. Why exactly should Hans, Petr, John or Pierre be thanking us?

for being the fall guys. you think it was just our banking system that was being poor regulated? we were the gangrenous limb hacked off to save the continent. except we're not a gangrenous limb - we're ****ing people, a nation, whose innocent children have been lumbered with billions in debt created by professional gamblers from all over the world, ie: bondholders.

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2012 5:30pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

for being the fall guys. you think it was just our banking system that was being poor regulated? we were the gangrenous limb hacked off to save the continent. except we're not a gangrenous limb - we're ****ing people, a nation, whose innocent children have been lumbered with billions in debt created by professional gamblers from all over the world, ie: bondholders.

OH Please.

Look at the austerity measures being put in place in France, Italy and the UK. The whole of europe are feeling the pain, except those countries didn't blow their money on coke and hookers.

The Billions of debt wasn't created by gamblers, or bond holders, it was created by sheer greed of a lot of people in this country and encouraged by a greedy and incompetant government.

suicide_circus · 08-10-2012 5:39pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

OH Please.

Look at the austerity measures being put in place in France, Italy and the UK. The whole of europe are feeling the pain, except those countries didn't blow their money on coke and hookers.

The Billions of debt wasn't created by gamblers, or bond holders, it was created by sheer greed of a lot of people in this country and encouraged by a greedy and incompetant government.

ah, an Irish EU apologist with a side of self loathing, tell me more about how I brought it upon myself when i've never atually borrowed a single cent from a financial institution..

Chips Lovell · 08-10-2012 5:45pm

We spent the best part of a decade gleefully endorsing a magic beans economy. Look where that got us.

Now the the first person to come along who tells us what we want to hear and we drop our knickers for them.

Have we learned absolutely nothing?

suicide_circus · 08-10-2012 5:53pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

We spent the best part of a decade gleefully endorsing a magic beans economy. Look where that got us.

Now the the first person to come along who tells us what we want to hear and we drop our knickers for them.

Have we learned absolutely nothing?

but hang on, is he wrong?

Duggys Housemate · 08-10-2012 6:00pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So, let me get this straight.

Rather than Ireland being grateful to Europe for bailing us out, Europe should actually be grateful to us for bailing them out, even though it was the mother of all property bubbles, in this country, that actually caused the mess we are in?

It was an Irish mess, made worse by an incompetant Irish government. Why exactly should Hans, Petr, John or Pierre be thanking us?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

OH Please.

Look at the austerity measures being put in place in France, Italy and the UK. The whole of europe are feeling the pain, except those countries didn't blow their money on coke and hookers.

The Billions of debt wasn't created by gamblers, or bond holders, it was created by sheer greed of a lot of people in this country and encouraged by a greedy and incompetant government.

suicide_circus wrote: »

but hang on, is he wrong?

The self-flaggelaters wouldn't agree. although FF is not really a self-flagelator.

Donelleys point is clear.

1) The banks cost 65B to bail.
2) This 65B went to bondholders, mostly European banks
3) We got that from Europe, but have to pay it back.

Ergo, we are the middle men for bailing out European banks, and have to pay. Had we let the banks fail - like Iceland - we would not be in this position. Therefore, let Europe pay for it's own bailout.

suicide_circus · 08-10-2012 6:10pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The slef-flaggelaters wouldn't agree. although FF is not really a self-flagelator.

Donelleys point is clear.

1) The banks cost 65B to bail.
2) This 65B went to bondholders, mostly European banks
3) We got that from Europe, but have to pay it back.

Ergo, we are the middle men for bailing out European banks, and have to pay. Had we let the banks fail - like Iceland - we would not be in this position. Therefore, let Europe pay for it's own bailout.

bingo.

Chucky the tree · 08-10-2012 6:13pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

ah, an Irish EU apologist with a side of self loathing, tell me more about how I brought it upon myself when i've never atually borrowed a single cent from a financial institution..

Welcome to Democracy. It's where you get for what the majority want.

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2012 6:16pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So, let me get this straight.

Rather than Ireland being grateful to Europe for bailing us out, Europe should actually be grateful to us for bailing them out, even though it was the mother of all property bubbles, in this country, that actually caused the mess we are in?

It was an Irish mess, made worse by an incompetant Irish government. Why exactly should Hans, Petr, John or Pierre be thanking us?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

OH Please.

Look at the austerity measures being put in place in France, Italy and the UK. The whole of europe are feeling the pain, except those countries didn't blow their money on coke and hookers.

The Billions of debt wasn't created by gamblers, or bond holders, it was created by sheer greed of a lot of people in this country and encouraged by a greedy and incompetant government.

suicide_circus wrote: »

but hang on, is he wrong?

The slef-flaggelaters wouldn't agree. although FF is not really a self-flagelator.

Donelleys point is clear.

1) The banks cost 65B to bail.
2) This 65B went to bondholders, mostly European banks
3) We got that from Europe, but have to pay it back.

Ergo, we are the middle men for bailing out European banks, and have to pay. Had we let the banks fail - like Iceland - we would not be in this position. Therefore, let Europe pay for it's own bailout.

So what you are saying then, is that someone else should pick up the bill for the Irish property bubble?

suicide_circus · 08-10-2012 6:16pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Welcome to Democracy. It's where you get for what the majority want.

tell me about it

ejmaztec · 08-10-2012 6:22pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Welcome to Democracy. It's where you get for what the majority want.

I think that in most political systems, whenever the sh1t hits the fan, everybody gets a good covering.:(

Ghandee · 08-10-2012 6:22pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So what you are saying then, is that someone else should pick up the bill for the Irish property bubble?

Point of thread goes completely over head.

Ghandee · 08-10-2012 6:24pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Welcome to Democracy. It's where you get for what the majority want.

Wrong.

The majority weren't given an option.

Did the govt gold a referendum on bailing out the banks?

Chucky the tree · 08-10-2012 6:26pm

Ghandee wrote: »

Wrong.

The majority weren't given an option.

Did the govt gold a referendum on bailing out the banks?

I wasn't referring tot he bank bail-out.

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2012 7:00pm

Ghandee wrote: »

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Welcome to Democracy. It's where you get for what the majority want.

Wrong.

The majority weren't given an option.

Did the govt gold a referendum on bailing out the banks?

German tax payers certainly weren't.

Ghandee · 08-10-2012 7:08pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

German tax payers certainly weren't.

Weren't what

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2012 7:19pm

Ghandee wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

German tax payers certainly weren't.

Weren't what

German, British and French tax payers weren't given an option on the bank bail out, so why should they foot the bill.

The Irish property bubble made billions disappear. Someone, somewhere has to cough for it and I'm afraid we are guilty by association.

Seaneh · 08-10-2012 7:25pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

German, British and French tax payers weren't given an option on the bank bail out, so why should they foot the bill.

The Irish property bubble made billions disappear. Someone, somewhere has to cough for it and I'm afraid we are guilty by association.

Jesus you haven't a bulls ****ing notion what you are farting on about, do you?

As ****ing usual.

Par for the course with you.

Scioch · 08-10-2012 7:27pm

the groutch wrote: »

is this supposed to be a secret?
this is all it was ever about from day 1, protecting our European "friends" who inflated the bubble by throwing cheap money at our banks.

Exactly, we all knew what was happening. We all knew the state was unnecessarily paying out the bonds to prop up the European banking sector and nobody could do anything about it.

Main reason being that Labour (who were elected to oppose the continued payment to bondholers) sold out their voters and bent knee to FG/FF policy on it to continue paying.

FG and Labour and FF before them bled the country dry to prop up Europe. And yet most people ignore this in favour of attacking welfare recipients as the problem.

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2012 7:33pm

Seaneh wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

German, British and French tax payers weren't given an option on the bank bail out, so why should they foot the bill.

The Irish property bubble made billions disappear. Someone, somewhere has to cough for it and I'm afraid we are guilty by association.

Jesus you haven't a bulls ****ing notion what you are farting on about, do you?

As ****ing usual.

Par for the course with you.

As usual, you appear incapable of a rational arguement.

K-9 · 08-10-2012 7:34pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The self-flaggelaters wouldn't agree. although FF is not really a self-flagelator.

Donelleys point is clear.

1) The banks cost 65B to bail.
2) This 65B went to bondholders, mostly European banks
3) We got that from Europe, but have to pay it back.

Ergo, we are the middle men for bailing out European banks, and have to pay. Had we let the banks fail - like Iceland - we would not be in this position. Therefore, let Europe pay for it's own bailout.

Had we not guaranteed our banks we would not be in this position.

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2012 8:41pm

K-9 wrote: »

Had we not guaranteed our banks we would not be in this position.

People seem to forget the "The cheapest bailout in history" was made not to prop up banks, or foreign bond holders or even some elite race of lizard men. Fianna Fail did it to try and prolong the bubble and to help out their cronies.

For that reason alone we are all having to pay.

edit: sorry, I meant to say that none f it is out fault, no one in Ireland ever did anything wrong and it is all the fault of someone else who should be enternally grateful to us for bailing them out.:rolleyes:

Dockington · 08-10-2012 9:45pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

edit: sorry, I meant to say that none f it is out fault, no one in Ireland ever did anything wrong and it is all the fault of someone else who should be enternally grateful to us for bailing them out.:rolleyes:

Making smartarse comments doesnt make you more correct. Of course there is fault in Ireland but you have to recognise that European banks lent into the Irish property bubble in order to make a quick buck. This influx of cheap credit exacerbated an already bad situation (largely due to poor fiscal decisions in Ireland and of course a good dollop of greed). There was also failure of regulation at the European level.

No one is saying that the creditor countries should be grateful to us (well I certainly am not anyway), but they should recognise that we took on a large burden onto the sovereign balance sheet in order to stem the risk of contagion to the banks of the creditor countries. Also Donnelly makes the point that the ECB should be responsible for the banking debts rather than the ESM due to the fact that the taxpayers in the creditor countries should not cover the tab. Personally I would not expect to be reimbursed the whole 64bn but some reduction in the burden is definitely required. Why not start the negotiating position at 64bn and come to some compromise.

poeticseraphim · 08-10-2012 9:53pm

K-9 wrote: »

Had we not guaranteed our banks we would not be in this position.

We made a temporary garantee..legally we can stop renewing it. We gave it a set time..the govt just keeps renewing it...that is why we are still dealing with nama and these banks have not collapsed without the garentee no matter how much money the ECB pumped in it would not have saved them.

Some bondholders like Abramovitch we know ..are foreign...and yes we got crooked advice...but some would be Irish

The thing is i wish people would focus on what is wrong or right and focus on what we can get and the best we can get..when we exit the bailout programme THEN is the time to try

But yes make it go viral..it can't hurt....

But the point is not what we SHOULD get it is what we can get...and the best we can get...we are a small country...

spank_inferno · 08-10-2012 10:00pm

Fred fails to notice that it was largely German pension fund money that took a gamble on the Irish Banks & their associated property gambles.

It all came crashing down.

Rather than face the wrath of a many a folk with smaller pension pots, The EU (And America) ordered the Irish Gov to nationalise the debts of the banks and repay all those who placed losing bets on those same banks.

Stephen Donnelly, on how the ECB actually owes Ireland €64 billion!

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