Farm accounts

k mac

Was hoping to do my own tax return this year as sick of giving what i beleive to be crazy money to accountants. Have all my outgoings, expenses and income added up and the form 11s ready to fill up. My problem is even though i am farming on a very small scale, i made a fairly big loss last year due to buying entitlements etc, and want to claim this back against my paye income tax and am not sure do i have to fill another form for this or how it works .Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated or if there is any farmer friendly accountants on here i would be willing to pay a small fee for advice.

grange mac

Firstly be sure to be registered on line. gives more time. as far as i kno its all in the same form. you will need your p60 though. I do mine on line and if you handy wit accs is fairly ok to do. dont kno but i would assume entitlments could be a revenue exp so dont capitalise it and can reduce 2010 and 2011 profits if i remember correctly. goin startin my own accs at the wknd

royalmeath

There is a guy trading as probooks in westmeath, he did my returns for the last few years. He is very
competitive and he knows his stuff. I found him via the donedeal

Figerty

k mac wrote: »

Was hoping to do my own tax return this year as sick of giving what i beleive to be crazy money to accountants. Have all my outgoings, expenses and income added up and the form 11s ready to fill up. My problem is even though i am farming on a very small scale, i made a fairly big loss last year due to buying entitlements etc, and want to claim this back against my paye income tax and am not sure do i have to fill another form for this or how it works .Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated or if there is any farmer friendly accountants on here i would be willing to pay a small fee for advice.

What do you regards as crazy money?
I put all my accounts together, including invoices,receipts etc. on an excel sheet and hand them to the accountant. It's a small farm and not complicated and it costs me about 300 +Vat per year. I am friendly with accountant and I'm sure this partly discounted.
It's good money spent as it keeps the revenue of my back.

Farmer Pudsey

I do not think entitlements can be depreciated they are like land they are considered to hold there capital value. On a small farm with fairly simple accounts yoy should be able to get done for less that 500 I woud imagine.Are you using the same accountant all the time price a few a farmers has two friends his cattle stick and his pocket.

k mac

Figerty wrote: »

What do you regards as crazy money?
I put all my accounts together, including invoices,receipts etc. on an excel sheet and hand them to the accountant. It's a small farm and not complicated and it costs me about 300 +Vat per year. I am friendly with accountant and I'm sure this partly discounted.
It's good money spent as it keeps the revenue of my back.

I pay the same price and also put all the accounts together for the account however my problem is i am farming on a very small scale, i don't own any land just rent about 20 acres. Last year the accountant figured i made 200 euro profit however if took into account the small jobs i would have paid for in cash it would be a loss. Now if i made 200 i don't see the point in paying that plus 160 more for my return. As well as that i was not happy with the service i received overall

pgodkin

k mac wrote: »

I pay the same price and also put all the accounts together for the account however my problem is i am farming on a very small scale, i don't own any land just rent about 20 acres. Last year the accountant figured i made 200 euro profit however if took into account the small jobs i would have paid for in cash it would be a loss. Now if i made 200 i don't see the point in paying that plus 160 more for my return. As well as that i was not happy with the service i received overall

your first accounting mistake is you did not take all costs into consideration, Account's/Account preperations should be one of your first costs as it is usually fixed cost, ie your account will cost you X this year, Farming on a small scale is usually very profitable as you can us your accuont to claim vat ex back against house hold purchases, ie your house needs a new roof, well in small account farming terms, your OFFICE needs a new roof. You car has to be serviced, well one of your FARM MACHINERY needs to be serviced etc etc

locky76

pgodkin wrote: »

your first accounting mistake is you did not take all costs into consideration, Account's/Account preperations should be one of your first costs as it is usually fixed cost, ie your account will cost you X this year, Farming on a small scale is usually very profitable as you can us your accuont to claim vat ex back against house hold purchases, ie your house needs a new roof, well in small account farming terms, your OFFICE needs a new roof. You car has to be serviced, well one of your FARM MACHINERY needs to be serviced etc etc

it's 20 acres of rented land the OP is operating, i don't think your points above are relevant to him...

dar31

k mac wrote: »

I pay the same price and also put all the accounts together for the account however my problem is i am farming on a very small scale, i don't own any land just rent about 20 acres. Last year the accountant figured i made 200 euro profit however if took into account the small jobs i would have paid for in cash it would be a loss. Now if i made 200 i don't see the point in paying that plus 160 more for my return. As well as that i was not happy with the service i received overall

taxation accounts and operational account can tend to differ a bit.
i wouldnt use tax acc as a guide to the profit/loss of a farm

pgodkin

locky76 wrote: »

it's 20 acres of rented land the OP is operating, i don't think your points above are relevant to him...

I Disagree, a good accountant will pay his way! great accountant will make you money (i'm not an accountant by the way:))

Figerty

pgodkin wrote: »

your first accounting mistake is you did not take all costs into consideration, Account's/Account preperations should be one of your first costs as it is usually fixed cost, ie your account will cost you X this year, Farming on a small scale is usually very profitable as you can us your accuont to claim vat ex back against house hold purchases, ie your house needs a new roof, well in small account farming terms, your OFFICE needs a new roof. You car has to be serviced, well one of your FARM MACHINERY needs to be serviced etc etc

I heard of a small Engineering buisness owener in Limerick who had a couple of cattle... He tried to get the accountant put down the 'Nuts' as an engineering expense... accountant had a few horses and know well that Roches in Limerick didn't do nuts and bolts.

lakill Farm

royalmeath wrote: »

There is a guy trading as probooks in westmeath, he did my returns for the last few years. He is very
competitive and he knows his stuff. I found him via the donedeal

ThANK you

Jesus its lovely to be appreciated especially after spending the day at concrete :rolleyes:

bob charles

lakill Farm wrote: »

ThANK you

Jesus its lovely to be appreciated especially after spending the day at concrete :rolleyes:

concrete is another job where you have no friends

bob charles

pgodkin wrote: »

your first accounting mistake is you did not take all costs into consideration, Account's/Account preperations should be one of your first costs as it is usually fixed cost, ie your account will cost you X this year, Farming on a small scale is usually very profitable as you can us your accuont to claim vat ex back against house hold purchases, ie your house needs a new roof, well in small account farming terms, your OFFICE needs a new roof. You car has to be serviced, well one of your FARM MACHINERY needs to be serviced etc etc

are you for real or just trolling

lakill Farm

k mac wrote: »

I pay the same price and also put all the accounts together for the account however my problem is i am farming on a very small scale, i don't own any land just rent about 20 acres. Last year the accountant figured i made 200 euro profit however if took into account the small jobs i would have paid for in cash it would be a loss. Now if i made 200 i don't see the point in paying that plus 160 more for my return. As well as that i was not happy with the service i received overall

€200 profit? why didnt you include cash expenses? did you keep a record of them. ie €50 agri diesel on 5th may 2011
€100 for a socket set at the ploughing?

If its a farm expense its a farm expense end of. Also you would want to be including a portion of your car expenses relating to the farm. Tipping to hardware, marts, counting etc.

You can "offset" a farm loss against your PAYE income for 4-5 years in a row.

caseman

Pay peanuts you'll get monkeys.

lakill Farm

caseman wrote: »

Pay peanuts you'll get monkeys.

Sorry thats bullsh1t.

Most accountants charge €40 ph minimum plus vat. Average farm accounts approx 10 - 12 hours so thats €480 plus vat
And woops you get billed €800 plus vat

of the €480

1/3 covers wages
1/3 covers practice admin
1/3 covers partner profit

and the other €320 is the icing on the cake for the bmw 530D and the trip to portugal to play golf while the farmer is at home dosing cattle,
cleaning out a shed with a fork or picking stones.


€300 for doing 10 hours work is €30ph im very happy with that

caseman

lakill Farm wrote: »

Sorry thats bullsh1t.

Most accountants charge €40 ph minimum plus vat. Average farm accounts approx 10 - 12 hours so thats €480 plus vat
And woops you get billed €800 plus vat

of the €480

1/3 covers wages
1/3 covers practice admin
1/3 covers partner profit

and the other €320 is the icing on the cake for the bmw 530D and the trip to portugal to play golf while the farmer is at home dosing cattle,
cleaning out a shed with a fork or picking stones.


€300 for doing 10 hours work is €30ph im very happy with that

From my own experience of accountants.I had a lad doing mine e300 a year.
Always ended up getting the wrong advice.
Chap doing them now e500 +endas bit.
Pays his way very well.

LivInt20

k mac wrote: »

Was hoping to do my own tax return this year as sick of giving what i beleive to be crazy money to accountants. Have all my outgoings, expenses and income added up and the form 11s ready to fill up. My problem is even though i am farming on a very small scale, i made a fairly big loss last year due to buying entitlements etc, and want to claim this back against my paye income tax and am not sure do i have to fill another form for this or how it works .Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated or if there is any farmer friendly accountants on here i would be willing to pay a small fee for advice.

Pay an accountant. Cheaper in the long run. Form 11s not as simple as it looks. Losses can only be used for 4 years.

JohnBoy

Have to say, we're dealing with our local IFAC office, we do everything up on excel, any questions answered throughout the year and tax planning advice given too, and all for €290 las year.

lakill Farm

caseman wrote: »

From my own experience of accountants.I had a lad doing mine e300 a year.
Always ended up getting the wrong advice.
Chap doing them now e500 +endas bit.
Pays his way very well.

And if the current lad reduced his bill from €500 to €300 that suddently turns him to a monkey?

Deal with an accountant who knows something about farming.


You wount go to a car mechcanic to mix your electronic gear change on your tractor.

ravima

Hey Johnboy, what IFAC office do you deal with. Mallow wanted 1100 + VAT from me! By my own reckoning, profit, that is income over expenditure before any depreciation was in the region of €5K.

saranac1

ravima wrote: »

Hey Johnboy, what IFAC office do you deal with. Mallow wanted 1100 + VAT from me! By my own reckoning, profit, that is income over expenditure before any depreciation was in the region of €5K.

My accounts are costing me 1260 including vat
Crazy money

whelan1

mine where €1800 last year down from €2000 the year before, i know a farmer up the road pays €3000 a year:eek::eek::eek:

raindodger

my bill just came on fri 1000euros

Farmer Pudsey

It depends on hoow complicated or uncomplicated your accounts are.

Suckler farmer buying all feed, fertlizer, dosing, bit and pieces off a local co-op/merchant one bill to sort out, sells his weanlings and only has bales/pit and slurry spread accepts set amount for car fuel and little other deprecation. These accounts only take a few hours. Most accounts should only charge 3-400 euro's for these.

Next step up is farmer that is keeping reciepts for everything, buys off different merchants-co-op, has jeep/van and car as well as machinery/sheds to depreciate, other half's wages taken into accounts. reclaims a bit of vat may have one of the Kids on accounts as farm worker. these accounts may cost 500-1000 depending on complication.

Above this are larger commercial farmers, maybe doing a bit of contracting/hauling/dealing, employing staff, vat registered these accounts will cost 1000+++

Some lads spend all the time with one local accountant are all these vat registered and some are like other professionals such as solicitors/taxi drives etc they will take you for a spin if you let them.

From what I hear farmers that deal with IFAC and FDC are usually fairly happy with the service as these firms are specialising in farm accounts there are more than likly other independant accounts that are likewise however there may be some that like a taxi driver take you for a spin.

I myself pay 600+vat for accounts they are not over complicated but I recieve a good service and am happy enough with it.

bob charles

i have a set of awkward accounts and have the boy down to around 850 all in nowadays, around a 1000 transactions on the outwards side of things, and 100 inwards. probably around 8 hrs work on the job and a hours meeting. Pretty okay service I think, I do present them in an excel sheet with a good bit of the work done. the size of the tax bill at the end determines how much value for money you are actually getting, considering all the reliefs etc. just back doing them today and accounts is one pain in the . ..... need I say anymore

Sam Kade

ravima wrote: »

Hey Johnboy, what IFAC office do you deal with. Mallow wanted 1100 + VAT from me! By my own reckoning, profit, that is income over expenditure before any depreciation was in the region of €5K.

I am with the Mallow office with over 20 years. Very basic accounts buy cattle in spring sell in winter and very few transactions €1400/year. Last week I wanted to make an appointment with my accountant and was told by the Secretary he is very busy this time of year can I help you :mad: He sends out the bill in January and invites me in to chat about the accounts and pay him his fee, he will have no bother meeting me then.

kevthegaff

im 630 incl vat, vat refunds free first year. mine were a bit messy this year paying lots of diff merchants, but will be simpler next!

The hawlk

lakill Farm wrote: »

You can "offset" a farm loss against your PAYE income for 4-5 years in a row.

Think it is 3 years only

Sami23

lakill Farm wrote: »

€200 profit? why didnt you include cash expenses? did you keep a record of them. ie €50 agri diesel on 5th may 2011
€100 for a socket set at the ploughing?

If its a farm expense its a farm expense end of. Also you would want to be including a portion of your car expenses relating to the farm. Tipping to hardware, marts, counting etc.

Quick query on the advice above, I'm all for including everything in expenses btw but if you had an audit how would you prove you spent €50 cash on diesel or €100 cash for a socket set at the ploughing if you had no receipts ?

k mac

Quick question on claiming relief for depreciation of machinery. Bought a tractor last year and heard you can claim 12.5% for 8 years. Section 135 on form 11e is for depriciation/goodwill/capital write off and i presume this is the relevent box. Question is do i put the full purchase price of the tractor in, or divide it by 8 for the 8 years? Also as i traded in a tractor is this included in the purchase price?

Farmer Pudsey

k mac wrote: »

Quick question on claiming relief for depreciation of machinery. Bought a tractor last year and heard you can claim 12.5% for 8 years. Section 135 on form 11e is for depriciation/goodwill/capital write off and i presume this is the relevent box. Question is do i put the full purchase price of the tractor in, or divide it by 8 for the 8 years? Also as i traded in a tractor is this included in the purchase price?

Other tractor has been depreciated I presume if you add in that this will add in a profit as you are selling that tractor. Depreciate the difference I think. Yes you divide by 8 and sow a declining balance with Claim to date and a balance left.

LivInt20

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Other tractor has been depreciated I presume if you add in that this will add in a profit as you are selling that tractor. Depreciate the difference I think. Yes you divide by 8 and sow a declining balance with Claim to date and a balance left.

Lads employee an accountant, ye are both making mistakes.

Going to cost yourself alot of money!!

Farmer Pudsey

LivInt20 wrote: »

Lads employee an accountant, ye are both making mistakes.

Going to cost yourself alot of money!!

I do employ an accountant. But have not traded in machinery every.

lakill Farm

k mac wrote: »

Quick question on claiming relief for depreciation of machinery. Bought a tractor last year and heard you can claim 12.5% for 8 years. Section 135 on form 11e is for depriciation/goodwill/capital write off and i presume this is the relevent box. Question is do i put the full purchase price of the tractor in, or divide it by 8 for the 8 years? Also as i traded in a tractor is this included in the purchase price?

your mixing up depreciation which is not allowable and capital allowance which is allowable

lakill Farm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I do employ an accountant. But have not traded in machinery every.

call your accountant so :rolleyes:

lakill Farm

Sami23 wrote: »

Quick query on the advice above, I'm all for including everything in expenses btw but if you had an audit how would you prove you spent €50 cash on diesel or €100 cash for a socket set at the ploughing if you had no receipts ?

why? because revenue auditors encourage having a cash book to record all cash activity.

Sami23

lakill Farm wrote: »

why? because revenue auditors encourage having a cash book to record all cash activity.

But if that's the case what's to stop people making up stuff to reduce their tax bill ?

Do you not need a receipt as proof for all expenses ?

lakill Farm

Sami23 wrote: »

But if that's the case what's to stop people making up stuff to reduce their tax bill ?

Do you not need a receipt as proof for all expenses ?

They might ask you to show you the workshop and all these tools you have bought. Also you might catch yourself up. All this cash your spending where are you getting all this cash? see if you want to get caught you will

Play it safe. If your playing safe you have nothing to worry about.

Farmer Pudsey

This is where the loss of cheque books will be a disaster.You will have to keep reciets for everything and insist on same. If I pay lads that drops cattle to the factory or collects them from the mart by cheque I have a paper record if down the line I have an audit it is easy to cross check. It is easy also to cross chexh if I have them payed. As I only use 2-3 hauliers it eases the paperwork burden. I keep all cash receipts and will not pay for anything by cash unless I get a receipt.

With cheque books gone you will need a receipt for everything unless you constantly trans funds electronicly.

Sami23

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This is where the loss of cheque books will be a disaster.You will have to keep reciets for everything and insist on same. If I pay lads that drops cattle to the factory or collects them from the mart by cheque I have a paper record if down the line I have an audit it is easy to cross check. It is easy also to cross chexh if I have them payed. As I only use 2-3 hauliers it eases the paperwork burden. I keep all cash receipts and will not pay for anything by cash unless I get a receipt.

With cheque books gone you will need a receipt for everything unless you constantly trans funds electronicly.

Fair points

Bodacious

lakill Farm wrote: »

why? because revenue auditors encourage having a cash book to record all cash activity.

Would my spreadsheet .. , date, description.. Name etc cover me as a cash book for cash transaction s ?

lakill Farm

Bodacious wrote: »

Would my spreadsheet .. , date, description.. Name etc cover me as a cash book for cash transaction s ?

In my professional opinion yes once they there is enough detail recorded

Dickie10

i put all the expenses and debts on an excel sheet under the usual headings, feed/fert. , vet, ESB,car etc and the email to the accountant and its still €900 a year am i being ripped off? id be very afraid not to have an accountant though for law and all the messy stuff , my father nearly lost thee whole farm in mid 80s down to a dodgy accountant, its never talked about so must have been bad. ever since we have this man who is half related aand seems straight as a die in fairness. i definitly wouldnt go alone

Username John

Dickie10 wrote: »

i put all the expenses and debts on an excel sheet under the usual headings, feed/fert. , vet, ESB,car etc and the email to the accountant and its still €900 a year am i being ripped off? id be very afraid not to have an accountant though for law and all the messy stuff , my father nearly lost thee whole farm in mid 80s down to a dodgy accountant, its never talked about so must have been bad. ever since we have this man who is half related aand seems straight as a die in fairness. i definitly wouldnt go alone

I do the same (altho I am very part-time, so the numbers would be very small) put it all into excel, send to accountant. Costs around 500, or a bit less I think.

sea12

Username John wrote: »

I do the same (altho I am very part-time, so the numbers would be very small) put it all into excel, send to accountant. Costs around 500, or a bit less I think.

Yep I'd be simillar john 450 plus vat. Sur it's tax deductible so I only pay for half of it really.

lakill Farm

sea12 wrote: »

Yep I'd be simillar john 450 plus vat. Sur it's tax deductible so I only pay for half of it really.

€450/€500 is never a bad fee. Going to a farmer tomorrow and he is paying €3,500 :eek:. Meet him at the ploughing and called me the other day

Connemara Farmer

lakill Farm wrote: »

€450/€500 is never a bad fee.

Getting mine done for €0.00 this year

Reggie.

lakill Farm wrote: »

€450/€500 is never a bad fee. Going to a farmer tomorrow and he is paying €3,500 :eek:. Meet him at the ploughing and called me the other day

See i told ya putting me out front in the hot pants would drum up business for ya

john mayo 10

Doing up a excel sheet of a outlays do it saves me rushing it at end of tax year. A query. Can u include kerosene? What i mean is can it be included in light/ heat/ phone?