Is it illegal to have 18-20 people standing on JJ Kavanagh bus from Naas to Carlow?

glenryan17

is it illegal to stand on a 49 seater bus
hi all is it illegal to be allowed to stand on a bus that only had 49 seats? every monday from nass to carlow i.t there are at least 18-20students standing on jj kavanghs bus as there is no seats left. i rang their office and they said they can carry 8 standing is this true? i feel this is simply dangerous and in this day and age it shouldnt be allowed.and have any other student had the same experience with students standing all the way from nass to carlow i.t at 7.40am

foggy_lad

glenryan17 wrote: »

is it illegal to stand on a 49 seater bus
hi all is it illegal to be allowed to stand on a bus that only had 49 seats? every monday from nass to carlow i.t there are at least 18-20students standing on jj kavanghs bus as there is no seats left. i rang their office and they said they can carry 8 standing is this true? i feel this is simply dangerous and in this day and age it shouldnt be allowed.and have any other student had the same experience with students standing all the way from nass to carlow i.t at 7.40am

Yes it is illegal and obviously voids the insurance as the vehicle is only designed to carry 49 with no standees.

Cookie_Monster

first world problems...
you can stand on planes in China and hang out the windows of buses in India with 50 others. Would you rather miss the bus and miss college or have to stand for a while???

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes it is illegal and obviously voids the insurance as the vehicle is only designed to carry 49 with no standees.

Having 10 people in a 5 seater car won't void insurance, so I doubt very much if the coach insurance would be voided by too many people standing.

I'm not sure it's illegal either. It's the coach builder that dictates the standing room, not the State?

intellectual dosser

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

first world problems...
you can stand on planes in China and hang out the windows of buses in India with 50 others. Would you rather miss the bus and miss college or have to stand for a while???

Id rather get there alive....or with all my teeth/bones intact.

devnull

That depends if it was a coach or not, I believe JJ Kavanagh operate a fleet of Citaro buses as well on many of the shorter and schools routes.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

That depends if it was a coach or not, I believe JJ Kavanagh operate a fleet of Citaro buses as well on many of the shorter and schools routes.

Correct Devnull,the OP would need to look for the statutory legal-lettering which outlines the capacity of the vehicle.

It may look like a coach,quack like a coach...but yet,may not actually be a coach !!!

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Correct Devnull,the OP would need to look for the statutory legal-lettering which outlines the capacity of the vehicle.

It may look like a coach,quack like a coach...but yet,may not actually be a coach !!!

Afaik the college routes apart from the Naas-Clane town link and Newbridge-Kilcullen town link and the Hacketstown and Portlaoise buses use coaches.

The bus in question was on the Dublin-Waterford route so was indeed a coach, afaik two of the coaches in use by jj kavanaghs seat 49.

OP maybe you could ask your question on their Facebook page and see what reply you get?

loyatemu

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

first world problems...
you can stand on planes in China and hang out the windows of buses in India with 50 others. Would you rather miss the bus and miss college or have to stand for a while???

what's the fatality rate on Indian railways? We have safety regulations for a reason.

the groutch

Letter/email to Dept of Transport & NTA might be in order imo, putting the lives of students at risk to make a quick buck is disgusting.

foggy_lad

Obviously there are far more students commuting on a daily basis especially between north Kildare/Dublin and Carlow, which is cheaper than living away from home. This has most likely put extra pressure on the limited capacity on the normal services provided by JJ Kavanaghs.

foggy_lad

the groutch wrote: »

Letter/email to Dept of Transport & NTA might be in order imo, putting the lives of students at risk to make a quick buck is disgusting.

A complaint to the Gardai might get more done and faster.

The_Wrecker

foggy_lad wrote: »

A complaint to the Gardai might get more done and faster.

Get your email in before 2100hrs!

There are a few red coaches in North Wicklow with standee's.

Thinking back to an old episode of Traffic blues, the driver of an Ex DB decker was fined in Cork for overloading a public service vehicle.

Mikros

The answer depends on what the bus is type approved for. Some are designed to carry limited standing passengers, some are designed to carry none. There is no simple answer.

Section 80 of the Road Traffic (Construction, Equipment and use of vehicles) regulations, 1963 sets out some hard limits:

"(c) the additional number of passengers carried in a single deck omnibus by virtue of this sub-article shall not exceed in number 8, or one-quarter of the passenger accommodation of such omnibus, whichever is the less;"

The other important thing is that if standing passengers are carried the maximum speed permitted is 65 km/h.

Victor

You might drop JJ Kavanagh a note.

areyawell

Drop a note to jj to run an additional mini bus before writing to the department of blah transport. Dont tattle tale if you dont agree with sumtin, speak with jj first

MadsL

areyawell wrote: »

Drop a note to jj to run an additional mini bus before writing to the department of blah transport. Dont tattle tale if you dont agree with sumtin, speak with jj first

Because not being a "snitch" or a "rat" is far important than justifiable concern for human safety, right.

dowlingm

If NTA or someone else cracks down on JJK, I expect a thread here within a month "JJK left me by the side of the road" "I got this bus every week, didn't have a problem standing but this week he drove past me with BUS FULL" (etc.)

areyawell

MadsL wrote: »

Because not being a "snitch" or a "rat" is far important than justifiable concern for human safety, right.

its not been a snitch or rat, jj will gladly deal with it a lot quicker than those idiots in that department. If JJ do nothing about it then complain. JJ could lose there license over something like this or be heavily fined

Cookie_Monster

loyatemu wrote: »

what's the fatality rate on Indian railways? We have safety regulations for a reason.

where did I mention railways? anyway per passenger km travelled I'd say it's lower than here tbh

AlekSmart

the groutch wrote: »

Letter/email to Dept of Transport & NTA might be in order imo, putting the lives of students at risk to make a quick buck is disgusting.

Hmmmm,perhaps.

My own observations this week in and around Dublin Studentland indicate that a significant number of students have absolutely NO problem putting their own lives at risk,particularly after slugging back as much SPECIAL STUDENT OFFER !!! booze as they could swallow.

Leppin out in front of traffic on the Stillorgan Road is a particular favourite,as is showing off their manly cracks to Taxi's which decide not to stop for them...(you know it's bad when that happens)

Maybe Carlow students are models of probity,but I'll rely on the Local Correspondent for that call.....:)

areyawell

send this thread to jj and seewhat they say, if dont report then send to revalent depatrment and some people would want to get off there dole ridden high hourse

dowlingm

Send a letter by all means, but bear in mind that unless the driver is putting the takings in his pocket JJK must surely know this route is making unfeasible sums already. That they correct the situation is only worth some much kudos.

wexfordmick

this seems to be an ongoing problem on this route to carlow i.t. my brothers mate said there were 9 standing last Monday morning on a 49 seater bus.WHAT i CANT UNDERSTAND IF THIS IS THE CASE WHY ISNT THE GARDAI INVOLVED? jESUS FOR **** SAKE DO WE HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL SOMEONES FAMILY MEMBER GET BADLY HURT? IF YOU SEE THAT MANY ON A BUS THATS OVERLOADED RING THE GARDAI RIGHT AWAY BEFORE ITS TOO LATE, HAS ANYONE RANG KAVANGHS ABOUT THIS?

wexfordmick

AlekSmart wrote: »

Hmmmm,perhaps.

My own observations this week in and around Dublin Studentland indicate that a significant number of students have absolutely NO problem putting their own lives at risk,particularly after slugging back as much SPECIAL STUDENT OFFER !!! booze as they could swallow.

Leppin out in front of traffic on the Stillorgan Road is a particular favourite,as is showing off their manly cracks to Taxi's which decide not to stop for them...(you know it's bad when that happens)

Maybe Carlow students are models of probity,but I'll rely on the Local Correspondent for that call.....:)

if this is true then the students themselves should not get on a 49 seater bus to travel to college while standing, do they not care for their own safety? if my son was on that bus and he told me what was happening i would have the gaurds arresting the driver, what does kavanghs have to say about this? i wonder do they know?

wexfordmick

glenryan17 wrote: »

is it illegal to stand on a 49 seater bus
hi all is it illegal to be allowed to stand on a bus that only had 49 seats? every monday from nass to carlow i.t there are at least 18-20students standing on jj kavanghs bus as there is no seats left. i rang their office and they said they can carry 8 standing is this true? i feel this is simply dangerous and in this day and age it shouldnt be allowed.and have any other student had the same experience with students standing all the way from nass to carlow i.t at 7.40am

glen you cant have people standing on a 49 seater bus so I dont know where they said they can carry 8 standing from, the next time it happens dont get on the bus if its full, think of your own safety, it is dangerous, i would rather miss college than be an an accident down the road:mad:

dowlingm

Off you go wexfordmick, do your civic duty (I'm being serious)

Complaints received relating to licensed passenger services,
unlicensed passenger services or other matters arising in
the context of the licensing of passenger road services will
be investigated by the Authority with assistance where
necessary from An Garda Síochána or other relevant bodies.
Complaints should be forwarded by fax, email or in writing to
the Authority (contact details in section 17).

Email: buslicensing@nationaltransport.ie
Website: www.nationaltransport.ie
Telephone: + 353 (0)1 604 1589 / 879 8300

ArmaniJeanss

wexfordmick wrote: »

glen you cant have people standing on a 49 seater bus so I dont know where they said they can carry 8 standing from, the next time it happens dont get on the bus if its full, think of your own safety, it is dangerous, i would rather miss college than be an an accident down the road:mad:

dowlingm wrote: »

Off you go wexfordmick, do your civic duty (I'm being serious)

Out of interest whats different between having people standing on this JJ Kavanagh bus and having people standing on a number 39/70 Bus going to Ongar/Dunboyne down the N3? Why would the former be illegal when the latter is clearly legal?

AlekSmart

wexfordmick wrote: »

glen you cant have people standing on a 49 seater bus so I dont know where they said they can carry 8 standing from, the next time it happens dont get on the bus if its full, think of your own safety, it is dangerous, i would rather miss college than be an an accident down the road:mad:

Before you put pen to paper,please check the specifications of the vehicle you describe as a BUS.

Look for the capacities which are legally required to be displayed before diving headlong in.....;)

foggy_lad

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Out of interest whats different between having people standing on this JJ Kavanagh bus and having people standing on a number 39/70 Bus going to Ongar/Dunboyne down the N3? Why would the former be illegal when the latter is clearly legal?

Dublin buses are designed to carry standees and the number allowed is stated on an imformation plate near the entrance to the bus. They also have grab rails and hand holds for those standing to hold onto while the vehicle is in motion and these Dublin bus vehicles are limited to a maximum speed of 65kph while the coaches used on the Dublin airport-Waterford service by JJ Kavanaghs are not designed to carry standees under any circumstances, have no grab rails and travel at 80-100kph

AlekSmart wrote: »

Before you put pen to paper,please check the specifications of the vehicle you describe as a BUS.

Look for the capacities which are legally required to be displayed before diving headlong in.....;)

The vehicles used on this route are not designed to carry standees and the rating plate states only seated passengers and no standees. This is not a local or town-link service it is the Dublin-Waterford service which in parts is oversubscribed by students travelling from Naas, Newbridge, the Curragh, Clane and north Kildare to Carlow IT.


There is also a legal requirement for all passengers to wear seat belts where provided and they are provided on all the coaches on this route so having people standing is legally not an option.

Noel Dempseys Den

Does anyone wear a seatbelt in a bus? If not, should they all be arrested?

foggy_lad

Noel Dempseys Den wrote: »

Does anyone wear a seatbelt in a bus? If not, should they all be arrested?

They can be fined and it is a requirement afaik that the driver asks people to wear their seat belts and informs them it is illegal not to and after that it is up to each passenger whether they wear it or not.

Jamie2k9

Dublin buses are designed to carry standees and the number allowed is stated on an imformation plate near the entrance to the bus. They also have grab rails and hand holds for those standing to hold onto while the vehicle is in motion and these Dublin bus vehicles are limited to a maximum speed of 65kph while the coaches used on the Dublin airport-Waterford service by JJ Kavanaghs are not designed to carry standees under any circumstances, have no grab rails and travel at 80-100kph

Dublin Bus are allowed to carry 15 standing passengers but they always carry a lot more than that so mabye a letter about them to. I hope people who do plan on writing to DOT start with the company themselves.

Victor

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Dublin Bus are allowed to carry 15 standing passengers but they always carry a lot more than that so mabye a letter about them to.

Do they? I am sure there are individual instances of this, but it is not the norm.

the groutch

I've seen multiple instances recently of there still being plenty of physical space for standing on a Dublin Bus, but the driver not letting anyone else on. They are obviously sticking to the limits on standing on the ones I'm on.

And as mentioned above there's a huge difference between people in a bus travelling at approx 50 kph holding onto a bar or overhead grip things, and people on a coach doing approx 90kph with nothing to hold onto.

gbob

It is illegal to carry standing passengers on a vehicle not designed or adapted for the purpose, and a 49 seater coach is not. However the rule regarding 8 standees is from SI 190 1963 Part VI Section 80..

80. (1) A person shall not, subject to the provisions of sub-articles (2) and (3) of this article, cause or permit the number of passengers carried on a vehicle to exceed the number of persons for which passenger accommodation is provided.

(2) If and so long as three or more children under the age of 15 years are being carried on the vehicle, the number of such children shall be deemed to be reduced by one-third for the purposes of calculating the number of passengers carried.

(3) During hours of peak traffic, or in circumstances in which undue hardship would be caused to intending passengers if they were not carried, a greater number of passengers than that permissible under sub-article (1) of this article may be carried on an omnibus, subject to the following limitations:

(a) no additional passengers may be carried by virtue of this sub-article in the upper deck of a double deck omnibus, or in an omnibus having passenger accommodation for less than 15 persons;
(b) no additional passengers may be carried by virtue of this sub-article at any time while the omnibus is exceeding a speed of 40 miles per hour;
(c) the additional number of passengers carried in a single deck omnibus by virtue of this sub-article shall not exceed in number 8, or one-quarter of the passenger accommodation of such omnibus, whichever is the less;
(d) the additional number of passengers carried in the lower deck of a double deck omnibus by virtue of this sub-article shall not exceed in number 8, or one-quarter of the passenger accommodation of such lower deck, whichever is the less.

gbob

foggy_lad wrote: »

They can be fined and it is a requirement afaik that the driver asks people to wear their seat belts and informs them it is illegal not to and after that it is up to each passenger whether they wear it or not.

It is in fact the vehicle operator that is responsible for informing passengers of the requirements to wear a seatbelt, by means of a video/audio/sign. The driver/conductor has the right to remove any person refusing to comply.

Jamie2k9

Do they? I am sure there are individual instances of this, but it is not the norm.

Would say its a lot more common than people think.

LXFlyer

Well as someone who travels on several DB vehicles a day I certainly don't see it.

The max number of standees is clearly indicated in the bus and I would be exceptionally surprised if that were being exceeded. If anything more people complain about fewer standees being accepted.

V_Moth

10 people standing on the Bus Eireann service (#237) at 2.30pm between Cork University Hospital and Bandon last Friday. Should this be reported?

wexfordmick

V_Moth wrote: »

10 people standing on the Bus Eireann service (#237) at 2.30pm between Cork University Hospital and Bandon last Friday. Should this be reported?

yes if its not a town bus it should be reported, there shouldnt be anybody standing on a coach , it must have been an omibus(that accomadates people standing) as I find it hard to believe bus eireann would risk such a thing and put peoples lives in danger in having people standing where clearly it is illegal.

foggy_lad

wexfordmick wrote: »

yes if its not a town bus it should be reported, there shouldnt be anybody standing on a coach , it must have been an omibus(that accomadates people standing) as I find it hard to believe bus eireann would risk such a thing and put peoples lives in danger in having people standing where clearly it is illegal.

What exactly is an omnibus though? afaik it is a vehicle for carrying passengers and SI 190 1963 Part VI Section 80 dates back to the thirties and forties when trams were included as omnibuses.

Ted_YNWA

If a crash was to happen with people standing & they got injured. It is the driver who would be liable for any claims / lawsuits. Same situation if a bus driver lets a passanger off at a non-designated stop & they injure themselves getting off.

Source : JJ driver a few years ago

gbob

foggy_lad wrote: »

What exactly is an omnibus though? afaik it is a vehicle for carrying passengers and SI 190 1963 Part VI Section 80 dates back to the thirties and forties when trams were included as omnibuses.

Since when was 1963 in the thirties and forties? And omnibus is still the legal definition of a fare stage passenger carrying large vehicle.

Going Forward

glenryan17 wrote: »

is it illegal to stand on a 49 seater bus
hi all is it illegal to be allowed to stand on a bus that only had 49 seats? every monday from nass to carlow i.t there are at least 18-20students standing on jj kavanghs bus as there is no seats left. i rang their office and they said they can carry 8 standing is this true? i feel this is simply dangerous and in this day and age it shouldnt be allowed.and have any other student had the same experience with students standing all the way from nass to carlow i.t at 7.40am

Yes it is illegal and nothing will be done about it until there is a serious accident.

Then the RSA and the whole lot of them will stir into reactionary mode, too late of course.

Victor

gbob wrote: »

It is illegal to carry standing passengers on a vehicle not designed or adapted for the purpose, and a 49 seater coach is not. However the rule regarding 8 standees is from SI 190 1963 Part VI Section 80..

That seems to have been amended by at least the following, possibly others:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1974/en/si/0297.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/si/0012.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0367.html

Going Forward

Victor wrote: »

That seems to have been amended by at least the following, possibly others:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1974/en/si/0297.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/si/0012.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0367.html

I think the first one (3 for 2 seating for children) is no longer in force, after a number of high profile bus accidents.

(It never fails to amaze me how in the UK they can give a broad "summing up" of the legislation on the first page in plain English as a broad guide to its intentions.)

gbob

Victor wrote: »

That seems to have been amended by at least the following, possibly others:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1974/en/si/0297.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/si/0012.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0367.html

As far as I can make out the above amendments refer to the well known abolishment of the 3 for 2 rule regarding carriage of under 15's. And do not refer to the 8 standee rule.

Cookie_Monster

glenryan17 wrote: »

is it illegal to stand on a 49 seater bus

how do you expect to get from the door to your seat if you can't be standing?
:D

V_Moth

wexfordmick wrote: »

yes if its not a town bus it should be reported, there shouldnt be anybody standing on a coach , it must have been an omibus(that accomadates people standing) as I find it hard to believe bus eireann would risk such a thing and put peoples lives in danger in having people standing where clearly it is illegal.

No, it was one of these buses:

http://busesinireland.bravepages.com/files/sc_047.JPG

The majority of the people were standing in the area reserved for wheelchair users. Unfortunately the battery in my mobile was dead, otherwise would have taken pics.

The stupid thing is that in Parnell Place, BE had already put on a second bus due to the amount of people present. This second bus took all passengers to Bandon. The second one (the one I was on) was due to go to Skibbereen and was basically full when leaving Parnell Place. The bus to Bandon was only half-full, so I am not sure why it was decided to let the full bus pick up passengers?

gbob

V_Moth wrote: »

No, it was one of these buses:

http://busesinireland.bravepages.com/files/sc_047.JPG

The majority of the people were standing in the area reserved for wheelchair users. Unfortunately the battery in my mobile was dead, otherwise would have taken pics.

The stupid thing is that in Parnell Place, BE had already put on a second bus due to the amount of people present. This second bus took all passengers to Bandon. The second one (the one I was on) was due to go to Skibbereen and was basically full when leaving Parnell Place. The bus to Bandon was only half-full, so I am not sure why it was decided to let the full bus pick up passengers?

The additional buses being put on to cover excessive amounts of passengers are becoming a thing of the past due to licensing of services. Every service now requires its own licence, and these overflow buses are technically not licenced by the NTA.