Homophobic language...

baby and crumble

I know that people will differ from me on the opinion I hold about language, in particular the casual use of the words "gay" "******" etc. I personally am of the firm belief that even though the use of these words is coming into everyday use, it's not ok to do so. I know I have had arguments on this board with people who don't think that saying "that's so gay" is an insult. But if you think about it, it casually implies that being gay is bad. YOu never hear someone saying "oh man, that is so GAY it's brilliant!" or at least not very much. But words do matter.

LINK

That website collates all tweets with terms like "gay" "******" "dyke" etc and counts them in a running total, showing the tweets as they come in live.

Wanna see something scary? This is today's total so far.



In the time it took me to do a screen grab, crop it and upload it, todays "******" number is well over 29,000.

Just something to think about.

1ZRed

People actually say "no homo" that often? Definetly Americans, and the same with dyke. Never hear them here.

I'll admit I say "that's so gay" or something along those lines the odd time and casually. Don't care about it either. I'm not the stereotype and whenever I say it, I don't mean it.

It's the same with faggot and often thrown towards my straight mates. In fact, that's one of the ways I slag them off for not keeping up with the gay lad beside them. All said with no malice behind it because it's just guy humour and piss taking.

And you know what, I wouldn't have it any other way with them. I'm not some special/delicate case that should get treated differently. I'm one of the lads and that comes with the territory. It's a laugh.

Annasopra

I really really detest "that's so gay". I don't see it as humorous or piss taking or a laugh or friendly in any way. I think I've made my feelings clear enough on this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77228694

baby and crumble

1ZRed wrote: »

People actually say "no homo" that often? Definetly Americans, and the same with dyke. Never hear them here.

I'll admit I say "that's so gay" or something along those lines the odd time and casually. Don't care about it either. I'm not the stereotype and whenever I say it, I don't mean it.

It's the same with faggot and often thrown towards my straight mates. In fact, that's one of the ways I slag them off for not keeping up with the gay lad beside them. All said with no malice behind it because it's just guy humour and piss taking.

And you know what, I wouldn't have it any other way with them. I'm not some special/delicate case that should get treated differently. I'm one of the lads and that comes with the territory. It's a laugh.

Do you use the term "retard" too?

GarIT

Its used a lot in uni, I hear it everyday anyway. It probably is wrong but I don't think that most of the people think being gay is bad, its just a bad habbit that people have with the things they say.

1ZRed

mango salsa wrote: »

I really really detest "that's so gay". I don't see it as humorous or piss taking or a laugh or friendly in any way. I think I've made my feelings clear enough on this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77228694

See from reading that, I wouldn't want to be called queer. I don't like the word and I always associate it with something bad.

That's just my take on it and I don't see it as bad because most of the time there's no harm behind it. Many young people feel the same.

If it was said to me in a dismissive sort of way I'd be quick to tear whoever said it down. Like anything, it can be taken as a joke or as an insult depending on the tone and intended meaning of it.
I've said it before, all this anti-homophobic talk isn't much better than the alternative.
Black people can make fun of themselves, why can't we?

baby and crumble wrote: »

Do you use the term "retard" too?

No. And I don't think it's comparable.

baby and crumble

1ZRed wrote: »

Black people can make fun of themselves, why can't we?
.

The problem isn't gay people using the terms. It's straight people using them as derogatives. Using a label that factually does refer to me but as an insult. They're basically saying that I am less than- that what I am is so bad that nobody would want to be seen as that. I don't understand how people don't get that. Genuinely.

1ZRed wrote: »

No. And I don't think it's comparable.

Really? It's a term that was in use years ago to describe a group of people, that large members of that community dislike being used, being used as an insult. I see it as very similar.

Annasopra

1ZRed wrote: »

I've said it before, all this anti-homophobic talk isn't much better than the alternative.

I know you've said it before but I really don't understand it at all. I don't understand why you are so anti anti-homophobia.

Shakti

Watch those numbers climb, the stunted vernacular of the privileged, when I was growing up they used to be accompanied by a kick in the teeth or some such back then 'twitter' was simply called 'the grapevine' which no doubt whispered similar charming phrases of prejudice to uncomfortable ears.

1ZRed

I'm not so "anti anti-homophobia" as you've put it, I just think there's a balance to be struck.

What good is it that we come to a point where nobody can say anything about gay people at all, if even to take the piss and mess around in mutual fun because it's so bad and insulting. We want to be treated equally, then why have it so that everyone must be so politically correct towards us that nobody can touch us? That's actually very segregating and doesn't "normalise" us either.

I like to be treated the same and as equal to my friends and to other people, so that means when I want to make fun of my "pussy boy" mates, I will and when they want to slag me back, they can. It's called having a laugh.

So if ever we want to change things for the better and take away the spiteful meaning behind it and replace it with just good humour then how best to do that? Go about saying "don't ever say that, it's insulting and demeaning" or only take it on as a joke (when it actually is) and make people realise we can have a laugh and we're normal - not something that can't be made fun of like another group of people because we can't take it.
Which way will change people's view of us for the better, and quicker I should add?

To me, I would only hate to come to that point where I'm seen as someone that can't be messed with a bit. Fuck that. I can look out for myself and I'm not offended by stupid words.
It annoys me because its not always meant in bad form and my friends that engage in frequent slagging matches would always have my back if ever somebody started to call me a fagg0t and meant it.
Double standards are ridiculous.
I'm no different to a straight guy, the only difference being the hole I like to fuck so I want to be equal to them. I can rip the piss out of them but them not me back? Feck that. That's what guys do.

We can't all be so rigid and uptight. Not good images when we want to be seen as people that are just as able to have the laugh and be seen just as equal/normal.
There is a balance and that's to cut out the homophobia and malice behind saying it and being able to take a joke when it's meant to good humour with no bad intent behind it. Not to cut it all out and be a dictator about it because that'd just drive us further away from the idea of "normal".

Shakti

ah evenings out with 'the lads' ****ing holes and ripping piss together were have those days gone

1ZRed

baby and crumble wrote: »

The problem isn't gay people using the terms. It's straight people using them as derogatives. Using a label that factually does refer to me but as an insult. They're basically saying that I am less than- that what I am is so bad that nobody would want to be seen as that. I don't understand how people don't get that. Genuinely.

And straight people can say those things as derogations to all groups of people be it black, white or Asian people.

I know a mixed race guy from New Zealand and a black guy and they pull the piss out of their race as well as their peers do. Us "white people" get the cracker jokes and all. Do you think anyone cared or is hurt because of all this racism? Nope. It's all just a laugh and we're not trying to hurt each other.

Funnily enough I call that New Zealander "whiteboy" because he's so far flung the stereotype and I'm closer to it that he is!
My sister in Australia is friends with one particular black girl who loves playing up to the black role and is hilarious. This girl has even branded my sister her "black bitch" because my sister is well able to throw it on herself.

So you see I don't get all the harm. I like being able to joke and have a laugh and be as equal as possible. That means I've just as much right to mess with them as they have to mess with me. All I am is gay. Just that one little part, so I'm not going to get hung up on it. Life's too short.

I think everyone should be more laid back, that includes straight and gay people and just have a laugh at each other's expense every now and again.

In future I believe that's the way all this equality business will go. We'll all be the same pack of idiots that aren't seen as any different from each other.

baby and crumble

The problem is that most of the people who use these kinds of terms are NOT using it as a joke with their gay mates. I have no problem with my friends using words like dyke, etc when we're hanging out. Because I know there is no malice behind it, as you said. And because I have tacitly given permission. Would you be likely to call your NZ friend whiteboy if he told you that it upset him when you did that? If you're any decent kind of human being I'd say you wouldn't. What about if someone and up to your sisters best friend and said something like "Yiu black bitches need to die" or something similar? Same words. Different intent.

But some people don't realise that while a word or a saying or a joke might not upset you, what about the kid standing next to you? That kid doesn't know you're gay. He just hears a bunch of guys talking about ******s and pussy boys.

Ambersky

What we are talking about can be referred to as Casual Homophobia.
Casual Homophobia like Casual Racism is based on a few main interests or beliefs.

The first is that these statements or jokes just pop out of a persons mouth without any context, cultural beliefs, or effects. They come out of nowhere and they are going nowhere. They have not effect and they have no intention.

There is also a belief that if there is no intention to harm there is no harm done.
It does not matter what kind of statistics or personal examples you give of the harm done to a group of people targeted in the humor. The joker will deny harm and most especially they will deny they are part of any harm because it wasnt intended.

Next there is an obsession with Normal and especially being Normal and even more importantly being seen as being Normal.
This can escalate the joking of a person belonging to a minority group when in the company of the dominant group. ie Gays making fun of gays when with their straight mates, etc.
One of the main defenses of casual homophobia and casual racism is its normality.

And lastly and the most important thing is the main characteristic of Casual Homophobia or Casual Racism is that the person asserts their personal right to say whatever they want over the rights or feelings of anyone or anything else.
Basically the casual homophobe is most interested in themselves.

floggg

1ZRed, it obviously doesn't bother you, and you seem reasonably confident in your self which is good. So one of your mates saying "that's so gay" doesn't bother you, and you know he doesn't mean it in any homophobic sense.

What if you we're closeted, less confident, insecure and deeply unhappy with the fact you were gay, as many kids are. You spend your nights wishing you we're straight and fearing rejection if anybody found out you weren't.

Do you think hearing "that's so gay" as a put down or being portrayed as a negative would do much for your self esteem or acceptance? Or would it reinforce your own unhappiness about your sexuality and drive you further into the closet?

Personally hearing somebody say that's so gay doesn't bother me. In confident enough in my self not to take it seriously.

But I wouldn't use it, and have corrected others before for saying it, because I know that for many others in the closet or struggling to deal with their sexuality it does do damage.

While the banter may not affect you or most of your mates, there will be many it will affect. They often won't ever have the courage to speak up for themselves though. So rather than risk doing damage to somebody else, I'll avoid using words that I know can do harm and ultimately don't add a whole lot to the banter between me and my mates.

whattotdo

I have a brother who is a primary school teacher,he says kids as young as 5 frequently use the phrase 'that's so gay' so they are obviously hearing it at home,from older pupils etc

It's not a term I like as it never refers to anything positive,it refers to things which aren't regarded as 'cool' or socially acceptable etc

Annasopra

1ZRed wrote: »

People actually say "no homo" that often? Definetly Americans, and the same with dyke. Never hear them here.

I'll admit I say "that's so gay" or something along those lines the odd time and casually. Don't care about it either. I'm not the stereotype and whenever I say it, I don't mean it.

It's the same with faggot and often thrown towards my straight mates. In fact, that's one of the ways I slag them off for not keeping up with the gay lad beside them. All said with no malice behind it because it's just guy humour and piss taking.

And you know what, I wouldn't have it any other way with them. I'm not some special/delicate case that should get treated differently. I'm one of the lads and that comes with the territory. It's a laugh.

1ZRed wrote: »

See from reading that, I wouldn't want to be called queer. I don't like the word and I always associate it with something bad.

That's just my take on it and I don't see it as bad because most of the time there's no harm behind it. Many young people feel the same.

If it was said to me in a dismissive sort of way I'd be quick to tear whoever said it down. Like anything, it can be taken as a joke or as an insult depending on the tone and intended meaning of it.
I've said it before, all this anti-homophobic talk isn't much better than the alternative.
Black people can make fun of themselves, why can't we?

No. And I don't think it's comparable.

1ZRed wrote: »

I'm not so "anti anti-homophobia" as you've put it, I just think there's a balance to be struck.

What good is it that we come to a point where nobody can say anything about gay people at all, if even to take the piss and mess around in mutual fun because it's so bad and insulting. We want to be treated equally, then why have it so that everyone must be so politically correct towards us that nobody can touch us? That's actually very segregating and doesn't "normalise" us either.

I like to be treated the same and as equal to my friends and to other people, so that means when I want to make fun of my "pussy boy" mates, I will and when they want to slag me back, they can. It's called having a laugh.

So if ever we want to change things for the better and take away the spiteful meaning behind it and replace it with just good humour then how best to do that? Go about saying "don't ever say that, it's insulting and demeaning" or only take it on as a joke (when it actually is) and make people realise we can have a laugh and we're normal - not something that can't be made fun of like another group of people because we can't take it.
Which way will change people's view of us for the better, and quicker I should add?

To me, I would only hate to come to that point where I'm seen as someone that can't be messed with a bit. Fuck that. I can look out for myself and I'm not offended by stupid words.
It annoys me because its not always meant in bad form and my friends that engage in frequent slagging matches would always have my back if ever somebody started to call me a fagg0t and meant it.
Double standards are ridiculous.
I'm no different to a straight guy, the only difference being the hole I like to fuck so I want to be equal to them. I can rip the piss out of them but them not me back? Feck that. That's what guys do.

We can't all be so rigid and uptight. Not good images when we want to be seen as people that are just as able to have the laugh and be seen just as equal/normal.
There is a balance and that's to cut out the homophobia and malice behind saying it and being able to take a joke when it's meant to good humour with no bad intent behind it. Not to cut it all out and be a dictator about it because that'd just drive us further away from the idea of "normal".

1ZRed wrote: »

And straight people can say those things as derogations to all groups of people be it black, white or Asian people.

I know a mixed race guy from New Zealand and a black guy and they pull the piss out of their race as well as their peers do. Us "white people" get the cracker jokes and all. Do you think anyone cared or is hurt because of all this racism? Nope. It's all just a laugh and we're not trying to hurt each other.

Funnily enough I call that New Zealander "whiteboy" because he's so far flung the stereotype and I'm closer to it that he is!
My sister in Australia is friends with one particular black girl who loves playing up to the black role and is hilarious. This girl has even branded my sister her "black bitch" because my sister is well able to throw it on herself.

So you see I don't get all the harm. I like being able to joke and have a laugh and be as equal as possible. That means I've just as much right to mess with them as they have to mess with me. All I am is gay. Just that one little part, so I'm not going to get hung up on it. Life's too short.

I think everyone should be more laid back, that includes straight and gay people and just have a laugh at each other's expense every now and again.

In future I believe that's the way all this equality business will go. We'll all be the same pack of idiots that aren't seen as any different from each other.

I've been thinking a lot about what you have said here. Firstly it strikes me that in all of this you are only considering you. You've stated here that you can take some and give some slagging. You've stated that you "don't get the harm"

I don't think you have considered the wider consequences of this. I think you are looking at it only in terms of how it affects you. You are happy enough to treat this all as friendly banter but perhaps some of your mates may not be. Perhaps some of them could be really hurt by what you said but don't want to speak up because of further fears of more slagging. Perhaps one of your mates could be gay or trans but is terrified because he is called a pussy-boy. I'm not saying this is the case because I honestly don't know. There is of course also the possibility as flogg pointed out that other people; maybe your peers or maybe someone younger than you could be watching and listening to what you say. They see a group of lads messing around but they could also see a group of lads implicitly displaying homophobia. It's not overtly displayed but it is there. There is an implicit message being given to others around you that being gay is bad, negative, wrong etc etc.

I think as well you haven't considered too much why people are so anti homophobia - you've just kind of thought - oh this is too serious and I want to have a laugh. You have kind of ignored the effects of homophobia - hate crime, internalised homophobia, poor mental health, poverty, isolation, suicide

Almost 20 years ago at the age of 13 I considered suicide. I was treated really badly in school. I was called ******, bender, bumboy, queer, mcgaylad etc etc etc - I thought that I wanted my life to end and for them to feel so guilty for continuously abusing me. You might say their intention was abuse - but at the time they probably just thought they were having a laugh.

The other thing that really strikes me is that your understanding of equality. You seem to think equality means some sort of treating everyone the same and letting dominant groups in society use derogatory language towards minority groups without questioning them or without pointing the effects of such language and accepting it as "humour". I don't think that is actually you as a gay man being treated equal. Being treated as equal would mean more respect for you as a gay man or else you being allowed to contantly throw around derogatory terms about straight people like "breeder". There actually is an implicit assumption in all that slagging that you are not equal to them.

I really really dislike like the idea of people being allowed to laugh at others expense in terms of identity. Whether that be as a jew, a trans person, a disabled person - it dehumanises people, it effects their mental health, it disempowers them and it stigmatises them

So if ever we want to change things for the better and take away the spiteful meaning behind it and replace it with just good humour then how best to do that? Go about saying "don't ever say that, it's insulting and demeaning" or only take it on as a joke

I think THIS is really important. It's not just that something is insulting and demeaning - It is the effects of the language that are key - internalised homophobia/transphobia, poor mental health, poverty, isolation, dehumanisation, stigmatisation, suicide

You might again think that I'm being too serious about things; but society can go backward in terms of discrimination as well. A friend of mine is very involved in the Pride committee of Budapest - Hungarian society has gone from being a little bit gay friendly to being extreme anti gay in the last 5 or so years.

1ZRed

You've all made very valid points and I'm not against them. I get where you are coming from and we all want to to get rid of the negative homophobia/intension behind those words.

I think that I'm coming across too harshly, which isn't what I intended. I'll explain my views a bit better so you might get my scope of things a bit better.

You have to remember I'm a bit younger and I have some different attitudes to being gay in comparison to a some of you.
I'm not a pride marching gay guy and I'm not one to focus or dwell on my sexuality. I'm just a normal guy who happens to be gay and that's all it about me. It's a pretty simple mindset to have with all of this but it means I don't see myself as any different to straight guy or don't get seen as different either. I don't because it's not a big deal I don't let it.

Mango, you've made a good point about me thinking about myself. I'll admit, I often expect all gay lads to be able to take it as well as I do, in terms of slagging. That's a bit deeper but I suppose I like to distance myself away from those stereotypes that nobody can fully live up to anyway. That's not to say I'm ashamed of being gay, far from it.

Now what I don't like is assumptions being made about how I behave and how my group of friends behave. I'm open to them about myself, they think fuck all about it and don't treat me differently because of it. We like to mess around and I am definitely equal to them, I think you're dwelling too much on the gay jokes coming back at me without remembering I'm a bad one for ripping the piss out of them in the first place. It's always in good humour and but when it's not meant that way they'll speak up and so will I. I made that point. It's all fine until it's meant to throw somebody down.
I'm by no means a victim and I'm well able to look out for myself but the lads are always there and have my back, like I have theirs.
Sexuality doesn't come into it, all we are is mates to each other. Throwing the gay/straight jokes is a small element of that, we slag each other for much much more like any other pack of lads would about girls problems or anything embarrassing at all. That's the dynamic of close guy friends, notice how all straight men don't sit around making gay jokes, they might throw the odd one here and there but it's far far from the main focus of ways to jibe one another.

You made the point that I could be implying homophobia to my peers or younger guys. I don't necessarily agree with that.
I think it sends a damn good message to see me, an openly gay lad, hanging around and taking the piss with my mates like I'm just one of them. Nothing different about me, I'm normal. Like my sexuality is irrelevant, because it is.
My friends look up to me, and I look up to them. I've shared my gay sex stories in all graphic detail like they would with girls without a bother. Any fuss or "eww" had been kicked out ages ago and they couldn't give shite. In fact, if I pulled back they'd probably call me a pussy boy for it!
We live by the idea that "we're all the same bar the hole we like to fuck"
So I think in the end I get treated well and I treat them well, like it should be. It's not a big deal and a taboo thing to make a gay joke. I'm not so ridged.
All's good until it starts spiteful and meant and that's when it's a different breed of thing that I don't put up with.

And if some of my mates are gay/bi or whatever (I would have seen it in them already) the fact that I'm so open and accepted would only have them think "sure look, he doesn't get any stick. It's not the end of the world". We've talked a big about this. Straight lads are so curious so we've had the sexuality talks and they seem much more aware and open minded of everything which is better than anything they could have ever read when it's coming from a guy they know.

If anyone was ever closeted they'd know it's nothing spiteful because it's been stated and it's one of our ground rules.
And you'd think our group would be very hostile but it's actually a very safe place for us to just throw it all out there. Like I said, we've got each other's backs.

But yeah, I have been with a curious/bi straight guy. Older now by about 4/5 years so he wouldn't be a close group friend but yeah, we fecked around and he had no regrets. It's actually a hot story but too long for here!
So I think some of you might under sell straight guys and their intent sometimes. It doesn't do any good too see everything from a purely gay perspective and not get out there among it all

mango salsa wrote: »

The other thing that really strikes me is that your understanding of equality. You seem to think equality means some sort of treating everyone the same and letting dominant groups in society use derogatory language towards minority groups without questioning them or without pointing the effects of such language and accepting it as "humour". I don't think that is actually you as a gay man being treated equal. Being treated as equal would mean more respect for you as a gay man or else you being allowed to contantly throw around derogatory terms about straight people like "breeder". There actually is an implicit assumption in all that slagging that you are not equal to them.

I really really dislike like the idea of people being allowed to laugh at others expense in terms of identity. Whether that be as a jew, a trans person, a disabled person - it dehumanises people, it effects their mental health, it disempowers them and it stigmatises them

But it's the freedom that everyone is at the same level. Granted it's not spiteful or harsh, why can't you make a small joke about it?

You'd swear I want people to go around insulting each other flat out. I don't. I believe if you can be can have a laugh and be tolerant and acceptant of the person, then there's no harm.
If people want to insult or hurt each other for that purpose then why would they if we come to a point where those phrases lose most of their power? They'll go on to something else. You can change how the words are seen and the meaning they have. That happens often.

Tbh, I think your view that the world shouldn't laugh about minorities is not realistic. Do you think we will come to a pint where we will never say anything bad towards each other and all stay so politically correct constantly? No way, it'll never happen because then we won't have any fun to have with or friends if we mean it jokingly. I'd hate not being able to slag my friends. I'm a messer. I can't change that in my personality.

Look at Family Guy and all the minorities (and majorities!) they insult. Every single one has been insulted but funnily enough, done equally! And take a look at the creator behind it, he's a liberal pro-gay man and is just having a laugh. That's the way it should be. Sure if we're all laughing at each other but doing it without malice, aren't we all doing it together and equally.

I know this is some long assed post and I'm not disagreeing with your views altogether because I think we all what the same basic things, but for me and from my view, I'd like to show that we can have fun and be flexible about things and not just be so "gay" about it.

Ambersky

You make some good points there 1ZRed and its good to hear you talk about not wanting to hurt or insult people.
I also agree there is a need for balance between what has been called political correctness and off beat or casual humour.
Im much more nervous about this because I dont think we are equal yet and Im sensitive to the fact that there are so many readers of the LGBT forum who are vulnerable and get enough "slagging" in their real lives.

I feel much better about humour that comes from someone I know understands the issues and is highlighting some of the ridiculousness aspects of homophobia and our attempts to deal with it.
But I think a lot of people don't understand the issues and are not actually taking the piss out of them but rather adding to it and actually buying into it, by trying to prove how normal they are. I want to knock the concept of normal not buy into it.

Casual humour I have no time for at all. I would nearly rather someone cared enough to be an outright bigot and take responsibility for their homophobia than someone who just couldnt care enough to think about what they are saying.

wonderfulname

1ZRed wrote: »

See from reading that, I wouldn't want to be called queer. I don't like the word and I always associate it with something bad.

Funnily enough, I am queer, and I say it, it's the only easy way to explain myself to people without giving my life story. Bearing that in mind, I would never refer to another individual as queer unless they do themselves, even though we're all technically 'queer' here, and it's not a word I would use freely in public, because I recognise that there are people like you hanging around for whom that might be uncomfortable, and that normalising it's usage for people who don't understand the context isn't exactly a good thing.

I'm lazy, so I'm going to steal a bit of an answer from everyoneisgay.com to articulate my position;

‘F****t’ and ‘dyke’ are words that offend SOME and not others, but they are most certainly words that are used to make other people feel horrible about themselves. That is one thing that I think we can all agree upon. I totally get that sometimes you and your gayboyfran joke with each other and that those words don’t bother you. More power to you both - I don’t think anyone can place a value on the meaning of a word for someone else. I do, however, think that you need to respect that those words still carry a lot of hurt for a lot of people, and whether it is a straight lady, a gay boy, a queer human, or a unicorn asking you to please refrain, you respect that.

I don't have a personal problem with the majority of homophobic language, or casual homophobia, it doesn't remotely affect me, but I know it does others, so I'll have a bit of respect for people and not speak in that manner.

A somewhat related anecdote; Over the summer I spent a month in the company of a gay Canadian guy. I smoke, and to me, cigarettes are fags. Canadians do not call cigarettes fags, Canadian guy found my "going for a fag" confusing, amusing, and kind of distressing. And one point I "ran to the shop for a box of fags" and, knowing what I meant, his snap response was "Seriously! What the fuck is that? A coffin?". He knew it was not homophobic, that I'm queer, and marvelled at the fact I didn't connect the words at all. That didn't take away the power of the word for him, he couldn't not connect them, and it was my responsibility to watch my mouth, not his to get over it.

So I don't say things that can hurt people, fair enough you may say, but I actually have an axe to grind of my own with homophobic language. Casually, it's not used as an attack on gay people, it's used to highlight and ridicule any aspect of a persons nature that is deemed to be typical of the opposite sex. The implication that there's something wrong with femininity in men, or masculinity in women, that you should be defined by your genitalia, is one I think damaging not only to individuals but society as a whole.

1ZRed

Ambersky wrote: »

You make some good points there 1ZRed and its good to hear you talk about not wanting to hurt or insult people.
I also agree there is a need for balance between what has been called political correctness and off beat or casual humour.
Im much more nervous about this because I dont think we are equal yet and Im sensitive to the fact that there are so many readers of the LGBT forum who are vulnerable and get enough "slagging" in their real lives.

I feel much better about humour that comes from someone I know understands the issues and is highlighting some of the ridiculousness aspects of homophobia and our attempts to deal with it.
But I think a lot of people don't understand the issues and are not actually taking the piss out of them but rather adding to it and actually buying into it, by trying to prove how normal they are. I want to knock the concept of normal not buy into it.

Casual humour I have no time for at all. I would nearly rather someone cared enough to be an outright bigot and take responsibility for their homophobia than someone who just couldnt care enough to think about what they are saying.

Well yeah, I'd only put up with the gay jokes from my friends when we were messing around. If some randomer I just met was throwing them out without realising, then I'd tell him I was gay. In fact I love doing that and messing with people and seeing them stutter, feel completely awkward with big gaps of "ehh.." It's never an issue though, in fact a lot of straight lads just don't realise. I couldn't care less what they do but once they know they don't make any comments like that out of being "correct". That is until I become friendly with them and we start having a laugh.
I still think it's good to be able to take the piss out of yourself too though, and there's no harm in it.

"Casual humour" is not always just being a bigot or homophobic. A lot of the time it's just messing around and not even realising it.
If somebody was being homophobic you'd know it in their tone by how they used it.

Ambersky

1ZRed said
"Casual humour" is not always just being a bigot or homophobic. A lot of the time it's just messing around and not even realising it.
If somebody was being homophobic you'd know it in their tone by how they used it.

A lot of people seem to think that to say something racist or homophobic it has to be outright, intentional hatred, or an actual desire to take away the rights of others.
Casual homophobia or casual racism is just that, casual.
It dosent have conscious intention to take anyone elses rights away but the person making the jokes is often very aware of their own rights and object loudly when their right to say whatever they want is challenged.

If the tone is homophobic you are right you do know it and it does make a difference.
I can understand some joking when it is used ironically taking the piss as it were out of homophobes etc.
If the joker is just going along with what everyone else is saying without any awareness then that is just going along with a cultural anti gay feeling to my mind or at least saying I am not interested in how this could hurt anyone.

1ZRed

Ambersky wrote: »

A lot of people seem to think that to say something racist or homophobic it has to be outright, intentional hatred, or an actual desire to take away the rights of others.
Casual homophobia or casual racism is just that, casual.
It dosent have conscious intention to take anyone elses rights away but the person making the jokes is often very aware of their own rights and object loudly when their right to say whatever they want is challenged.

If the tone is homophobic you are right you do know it and it does make a difference.
I can understand some joking when it is used ironically taking the piss as it were out of homophobes etc.
If the joker is just going along with what everyone else is saying without any awareness then that is just going along with a cultural anti gay feeling to my mind or at least saying I am not interested in how this could hurt anyone.

I see your point and I can understand your views and opinions. I'm not going to say otherwise. Regardless though, I'll carry on the way I'm going.
I like to have a good time and it doesn't bother me as long as it's a friend with no badness behind it. Like always, I'll be quick to tear anyone who means it down and that's engrained in my own friends as well.

But that's just me. I'm easy going with this and I'll tackle any negative stuff as it comes up, but I'm not going to be telling everyone off and setting everyone straight. It doesn't bother me enough. But if I someone I knew who was struggling with their sexuality of course I'd have their back.

I'm all for striking a fair middle ground more than anything.

Ambersky

!ZRed to be fair I would like to say I don't think anyone especially me knows more about what is going on among you and your group of friends than you do.
Sometimes the interpretations others have, may throw a different light on things and we can see things differently.
Sometimes though there is something going on in our interactions that others just don't see or understand.
You say you are young and some of us older than you may not understand the younger culture you are in, and maybe that is so, for your group and its culture.

I think taking the piss or joking about gays/queers/fags/dykes/ bumboys etc etc here is more problematic than in your intimate group of friends who know one another and have a history.
There is quite a sizable group of readers and some posters who come here lacking in confidence and having experienced bullying or homophobia in their real lives.
Also there are quite a few people who have fought off all that and are comfortable and confident in their sexuality but who dont want to have to keep arguing and explaining and quite frankly listening to queer jokes.

Ambersky

I was thinking about the phrase you said you use 1ZRed among your group of mates "Were all the same bar the hole we like to f**K".

And I was thinking that there may be another aspect to that equality that may be showing itself now in the challenges and criticisms you have been hearing to what you yourself said was a young male style of humour.
As young men grow up and start having relationships with women if they are heterosexual or bi they often find that the women they are involved with dont have the same appreciation for what could be called school boy humour.
A lot of them might take exception to being referred to as "holes" or "the holes we like to f**k".
I would imagine your friends if they are having relationships with women, who are over any giggly adolescence, modify that humour somewhat when in the company of their girlfriiends. So that makes you more the same as your friends




Edited poor attempt at humour
-sigh

1ZRed

Ambersky wrote: »

I was thinking about the phrase you said you use 1ZRed among your group of mates "Were all the same bar the hole we like to f**K".

And I was thinking that there may be another aspect to that equality that may be showing itself now in the challenges and criticisms you have been hearing to what you yourself said was a young male style of humour.
As young men grow up and start having relationships with women if they are heterosexual or bi they often find that the women they are involved with dont have the same appreciation for what could be called school boy humour.
A lot of them might take exception to being referred to as "holes" or "the holes we like to f**k".
I would imagine your friends if they are having relationships with women, who are over any giggly adolescence, modify that humour somewhat when in the company of their girlfriiends. So that makes you more the same as your friends




Edited poor attempt at humour
-sigh

Our train of thought is not that deep and you're reading into things that aren't there!
Seriously, you're focusing way too much on the gay jibing aspect of it all which as a whole, is only a small part of what it is we like to make fun of (back and forth) *sometimes*. We mainly take the piss out of embarrassing fuck ups and the rest.

When we say holes, we mean actual holes. Nobody refers to their potential fuck/partner as just a hole.
That guy humour commonly extends far beyond just being a teenager and yeah, girls don't like it, but they're girls.
I'm gay so what's the issue? I'm not going to be going out with a girl so I don't see the issue.

I don't get why that's so hard to understand. And it's one of reasons why I'm not too fond of the debating around here because everything must escalate into this in depth discussion about homophobia without fail.
I think some of you see the world through a purely gay tint, which isn't good and isn't accurate.

Tonight for example my sister's boyfriend text me saying we should go out one of the nights because we hadn't seen each other in ages. He knows I'm gay but he doesn't make any sort of gay jokes or anything like that (probably out of correctness) Anyway, I noticed in the text there was a "ah but (...)" so I took the piss saying "the butt jokes are finally starting now are they". He text back denying that strongly and I just told him to relax, it's just a laugh. I can still mess around just because I'm gay.
So you see there was no harm in that, and I call him a gheyboy sometimes if he's being a bit delicate with me incase he offends me.
It's good to be able to lighten up sometimes.

foggy_lad

1ZRed wrote: »

Our train of thought is not that deep and you're reading into things that aren't there!
Seriously, you're focusing way too much on the gay jibing aspect of it all which as a whole, is only a small part of what it is we like to make fun of (back and forth) *sometimes*. We mainly take the piss out of embarrassing fuck ups and the rest.

immature and hurtful jibing is ok then?

When we say holes, we mean actual holes. Nobody refers to their potential fuck/partner as just a hole.
That guy humour commonly extends far beyond just being a teenager and yeah, girls don't like it, but they're girls.

So some people are offended but they are only girls and its only a bit of homophobic banter so why are they being so Ghey about it? as for it extending beyond you and your friends being teenagers i would say ye are older in months and years only but not any more mature or more rounded as individuals or as a group!

I'm gay so what's the issue? I'm not going to be going out with a girl so I don't see the issue.

I don't get why that's so hard to understand. And it's one of reasons why I'm not too fond of the debating around here because everything must escalate into this in depth discussion about homophobia without fail.
I think some of you see the world through a purely gay tint, which isn't good and isn't accurate.

You are not too fond of the debating here because you dont like people disagreeing with you, and we are mostly gay here so can happily see the world with a gay tint if we chose.

Tonight for example my sister's boyfriend text me saying we should go out one of the nights because we hadn't seen each other in ages. He knows I'm gay but he doesn't make any sort of gay jokes or anything like that (probably out of correctness) Anyway, I noticed in the text there was a "ah but (...)" so I took the piss saying "the butt jokes are finally starting now are they". He text back denying that strongly and I just told him to relax, it's just a laugh. I can still mess around just because I'm gay.
So you see there was no harm in that, and I call him a gheyboy sometimes if he's being a bit delicate with me incase he offends me.
It's good to be able to lighten up sometimes.

You say you are gay, why use that to embarras/offend your sisters boyfriend?


Just want to say that this is not directed at you 1ZRed but at immature teenagers who only think of themselves and what they want and fcuk everyone and everything else.

apache

Izred can't forget hes gay. He mentions it every 2 seconds. Even when someone didn't intentially make a gay joke he pick pick picks it up like a penguin.
Must be a kid thing?

wonderfulname

Mod hat: Try keep your focus to opinions expressed as opposed to those who expressed them.

Aurongroove

I think the burden of change for homophobic launguage should fall on those who are homophobic, not those who use "gay" as a casual insult.

that's right I said it: a casual insult.

My point being, people can use descriptions as implied insults for almost every word. i.e., 'french' to imply smelly.

Does that mean effort is then needed to be made to stop people using the word 'french'?
"sorry rest of the world, especially France; you're going to have to use a new word to mean 'from or relating to the country of France' becasue some people have begun using it as an insult and we don't what them to hurting other people with their meanie-bo-beanie use of language so where erasing the word from everyone's vocabulary.

1ZRed

foggy_lad wrote: »

immature and hurtful jibing is ok then?
So some people are offended but they are only girls and its only a bit of homophobic banter so why are they being so Ghey about it? as for it extending beyond you and your friends being teenagers i would say ye are older in months and years only but not any more mature or more rounded as individuals or as a group!

And now you're twisting my words. I said girls wouldn't get the humour as easily as guys would. I never said I don't care because they're girls.
Why is everyone obsessing about the "homophobic banter". I said it goes both ways and it's never meant in any way to be hurtful. I have to repeat myself over and over again, but I tackle the comments when they are homophobic and meant that way.

Funny you should mention the maturity. I often get told I have a head on my shoulders and that my views are fleshed out and mature. Just because I see this slightly differently to you and hold a different opinion doesn't make me immature.

This guy humour extends to so many men older than me, and I'm not taking about the homophobia you're obsessed about, I'm talking about the general piss taking and messing around. This is a guy thing. (And I'm not taking about homophobia, I'm talking about piss taking and abusing each other as mates)

Ok. You're not in a group of lads or one of them clearly. You're sensitive about this issue. I'm not.

foggy_lad wrote: »

You are not too fond of the debating here because you dont like people disagreeing with you, and we are mostly gay here so can happily see the world with a gay tint if we chose.

No I regularly debate and express my views here, and I have no issue about people disagreeing with me at all, I'm just not fond of the homophobic diatribes and how everything is "so homophobic". That's the only thing I'm not interested in.

And look, I'm a young guy and I've met so many young gay men like me that share the same views and are more easy going. I'm not permitting homophobia (it's annoying I have to keep making that point repeatedly) I just think it can be fine, to an extent, if its between friends and having a laugh. The guys I've met are the same but have their limits when the meaning behind it is bad, like myself.

foggy_lad wrote: »

You say you are gay, why use that to embarras/offend your sisters boyfriend?

We constantly mess around. He's a bad one for taking the piss out of me and I get him back. It's our dynamic and we get on very well. In fact he was very supportive of me when I came out to him.
He's not embarrassed or sensitive/offended. He's not so sensitive. Not all men are. Maybe you are but just because I'm gay doesn't make me some vulnerable and delicate guy. That's the stereotype I hate and in a way, and that's the attitude that spreads it.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just want to say that this is not directed at you 1ZRed but at immature teenagers who only think of themselves and what they want and fcuk everyone and everything else.

When did I say "fck everyone and everything else"? You directed all that at me, saying it's directed at teenagers is still not covering your ass.
I stated so many times I wouldn't want to hurt or offend anyone. That's not what anyone wanted. If nobody was hurt and everyone had a laugh, how is that so terrible?

wonderfulname

Aurongroove wrote: »

I think the burden of change for homophobic launguage should fall on those who are homophobic, not those who use "gay" as a casual insult.

that's right I said it: a casual insult.

My point being, people can use descriptions as implied insults for almost every word. i.e., 'french' to imply smelly.

Does that mean effort is then needed to be made to stop people using the word 'french'?
"sorry rest of the world, especially France; you're going to have to use a new word to mean 'from or relating to the country of France' becasue some people have begun using it as an insult and we don't what them to hurting other people with their meanie-bo-beanie use of language so where erasing the word from everyone's vocabulary.

Where was it said that gay people shouldn't call themselves gay because people use it as a casual insult?

Annasopra

Aurongroove wrote: »

I think the burden of change for homophobic launguage should fall on those who are homophobic, not those who use "gay" as a casual insult.

that's right I said it: a casual insult.

The problem is not as I said above that something is a casual insult. The problem is the effects of many people casually insulting so their is almost a normalisation of societal wide minor casual homophobia. The effects as I outlined above can include; internalised transphobia/homophobia, stigma, poor mental health, poverty, isolation, suicide

Aurongroove wrote: »

My point being, people can use descriptions as implied insults for almost every word. i.e., 'french' to imply smelly.

Does that mean effort is then needed to be made to stop people using the word 'french'?
"sorry rest of the world, especially France; you're going to have to use a new word to mean 'from or relating to the country of France' becasue some people have begun using it as an insult and we don't what them to hurting other people with their meanie-bo-beanie use of language so where erasing the word from everyone's vocabulary.

I don't really think that's a good comparison.

baby and crumble

What I don't understand is how someone can't tell someone else not to be offended or upset by something. It's like it's their fault you said something to upset them. Fair enough if you don't think what you said was bad, or if you didn't mean it they way they took up you. But you apologise, and remember it for next time. I don't get why that's such a bad thing? If you keep saying that stuff and following it up with "don't be so sensitive", frankly, you're being an asshole.

1ZRed

baby and crumble wrote: »

What I don't understand is how someone can't tell someone else not to be offended or upset by something. It's like it's their fault you said something to upset them. Fair enough if you don't think what you said was bad, or if you didn't mean it they way they took up you. But you apologise, and remember it for next time. I don't get why that's such a bad thing? If you keep saying that stuff and following it up with "don't be so sensitive", frankly, you're being an asshole.

Why am I being told what I'm doing is wrong or I shouldn't be doing this or I'm not aware of the consequences for being more lenient and easy going? I've never offended anybody who was gay. My jibes aren't severe at all, they're completely light hearted. I'm not harsh about it or anything, but I think it's being seen as worse than what it is.

I'm not being an asshole but if someone is throwing down on how so many guys behave and calling it immature and hurtful when that's just not what they do or behave I think they need to realise some people are ok with that and is part of the fun/slagging. And yeah I would call it being more sensitive when I've met many gay guys who behave the exact same way and are tougher and more carefree about it.

If somebody started telling me that I couldn't mess around and piss take with my mates, well I'd say it would be so boring and resisted to me because I like that. Why should I have to limit myself for the sake of correctness when what I'm doing isn't hurting anybody.

Annasopra

1zred I think you are suggesting that it's wrong for a man gay or straight to be sensitive. I don't agree with that. Men can and should have all different types of personalities and I thinks it's really really problematic to cast judgement against men who are sensitive or camp or different from the norm.

1ZRed

apache wrote: »

Izred can't forget hes gay. He mentions it every 2 seconds. Even when someone didn't intentially make a gay joke he pick pick picks it up like a penguin.
Must be a kid thing?

Was this an attempt to offend me? Jesus the lads would do a better job of that and not even mean for it to bother me.

I think the kid and immature jibes funny though. Foggy lad threw a dig months ago that I was having too much sex and being immature in some of my decisions and in general. This lead to a PM where he was trying to teach me a lesson about the Internet in hopes that I'd cop on.
Why? I don't know.

I don't think think there's anything wrong with having a lot of sex.
I'm not saying I have a heap of it but it's something that doesn't bother me about somebody else and I don't judge anyone for what they do. If it doesn't effect me and is none of my business I couldn't bother my ass enough to care about it so I'll let them off.
Ever since though, he's thanked every negative post about me which I find pathetic. Why someone would give a shit enough to do that about somebody they don't even know is beyond me.

Shakti

Although the usage imo is disappointingly unoriginal/conventional/phobic doesn't the use of the word 'gay' as a casual insult as presented here really emanate "originally" from the '4chan' and 'B thread memes' etc. which to me always had a very latent air to it also with it's usage within the military.

apache

1ZRed wrote: »

Was this an attempt to offend me? Jesus the lads would do a better job of that and not even mean for it to bother me.

since i didn't think it would offend you i didn't mean for it to bother you.
I would have done a better job if that was the case

1ZRed

apache wrote: »

since i didn't think it would offend you i didn't mean for it to bother you.
I would have done a better job if that was the case

Passive aggressiveness. Very attractive in a person.

Honestly, if you'd like to take a shot go for it. That's the a quality I absolutely hate in people. Got a problem, speak up instead of doing it in a weak willed way.

Annasopra

1zred/Apache - Take any issues you have with each other to PM

As per the forum charter - if you have any issues with moderation PM me

apache

Lol i don't. ok i'm confused.

foggy_lad

1ZRed wrote: »

I think the kid and immature jibes funny though. Foggy lad threw a dig months ago that I was having too much sex and being immature in some of my decisions and in general. This lead to a PM where he was trying to teach me a lesson about the Internet in hopes that I'd cop on.
Why? I don't know.

You sent me a pm asking me to remove or change a post in which i made some comment about a post you made looking for advice on an unusual occupation, it reminded me at the time of my 14yo neice who comes out with similar nonsense when she feels she wants money for nothing.

I can post the pms you sent and my single reply if you wish?

as for my thanking other posts it has nothing to do with you or whether those posts refer to you but i thank them because i agree with the content or feel they are good posts or giving sound advice etc.

Annasopra

foggy_lad wrote: »

You sent me a pm asking me to remove or change a post in which i made some comment about a post you made looking for advice on an unusual occupation, it reminded me at the time of my 14yo neice who comes out with similar nonsense when she feels she wants money for nothing.

I can post the pms you sent and my single reply if you wish?

as for my thanking other posts it has nothing to do with you or whether those posts refer to you but i thank them because i agree with the content or feel they are good posts or giving sound advice etc.

No

You won't be posting any PMs - they are irrelevant and quit dragging this off topic. If you have any issues with 1zred this forum and this thread are not the place for them

Irish Aris

To be honest, I can't even imagine my closest friends making/saying gay jokes in front of me. But then, I am 40 years old and my friends are on the same age group-plus I wasn't out at your age (I reckon you are fairly young 1ZRed??)

1ZRed, generally no bother on what you and your mates say to each other, since it doesn't affect anybody else. Just one point that didn't come out right. You mentioned in an earlier post:

I've never offended anybody who was gay.

I am certain that you are sure you haven't, but that's not up to you to decide. You sound very relaxed and confident about the whole thing, so you can't rule out the chance that you might have offended somebody and not realising it.

Back to the topic, thank you baby and crumble for the link, very insightful, made me dislike twitter some more.
I most definitely can't stand the "that's so gay" thing either. Everybody and his mother are using it, most of them probably don't even realise what they are saying (at some point I did hear an old lady saying it -it turned out she was using the word gay in the "happy" sense!!!).
I won't even comment on the f****t, d**e words. I find them totally degrading and not to be used, not even as a joke.
I am identifying as gay, and that is the only word I use to describe myself (I also use the word homosexual, but mostly in Greek, my mother language. Though it does sound kind of formal. . .)

bodice ripper

I am with 1zred here.


I tell homophobic/racist/sexist/violent/tasteless jokes all the time. they are pretty much the only ones I tell. And they are bloody funny too. The whole joke is how appalling what you are saying is.

I am not ashamed of it either.

Ambersky

I think threads that deal with issues where people disagree with one another are very useful and can be good for clarifying ones own thoughts on matters and on understanding where others are coming from.
I hope I am doing that and as a lot of my posts have been in reference to 1ZReds posts I want to say again that I am listening and I think you have some valid points 1ZRed.
None of us has a monopoly on the right way to think about, or to deal with homophobia. You giving as good as you get to your mates on all kinds of issues and just on general f**k ups I would imagine has done a lot to alter your mates ideas of what gay men are like.
I cant stand casual homophobia but I am prepared to concede that as I also think that is how the majority of people express homophobia, intended or not, that your tactic 1ZRed of giving as good as you get may be working in your circle of friends.

We are focusing on the homophobic slagging because that is the title of the thread.

This forum is composed of a whole range of people who have a variety of reactions to and experiences of homophobic language or slagging or joking.
We hear it differently and I think people at least need to be aware of that.

Earlier I touched on the changes guys often make to the cruder aspects of their slagging and language when around their girlfriends and how women might have a different reaction to your assurance to one another that "the only difference between us is the hole we like to f**k".
I was saying that like those guys taking the sensitivities of their girlfriends into consideration you may now be in a situation where you are being asked to take your LGBT friends sensitivities into consideration also.

1ZRed said
When we say holes, we mean actual holes. Nobody refers to their potential ****/partner as just a hole.
That guy humour commonly extends far beyond just being a teenager and yeah, girls don't like it, but they're girls.
I'm gay so what's the issue? I'm not going to be going out with a girl so I don't see the issue.

Well for starters Im a girl/woman.
And there are a lot of girls/women here on this forum.

bodice ripper

Am I the only one here who would feel offended if I thought my friends were behaving differently around me in deference to my sexual orientation or gender?

I may not be straight or male, but I am one of the lads.

Ambersky

I dont really think its about the gender or orientation of a person but rather about their feelings, comfort level, background experiences, of homophobic joking.
Some guys do for some women modify the cruder aspects of their conversation that 1ZRed was talking about around their girlfriends, also as 1ZRed has confirmed.
Some women feel fine about this and want to be taken as one of the lads and let them know this, others do not.

1ZRed

I am listening and a lot of you are making very valid points and building on my own. I was just clearing up some things that I thought people took out of context, over emphasised some aspects of, and didn't get the intended meaning behind my posts.

As I said, I'm not against what people are saying, I agree on many basic levels, but I don't agree that I should see it in the same light and treat the issue the same as the rest of you. I get your points that there are more sensitive people out there that might be offended, but my approach has had huge benefits in normalising gay men to my more closed minded and slightly homophobic friends (it wasn't their fault. It's a mixture of not being exposed to something other than "straight" and being at a young age where you mightn't see the scope and seriousness of the issue of homophobia)

I'm a big believer in finding a middle ground with everything and I don't think that being on either side of an extreme, of good even, is actually a hugely beneficial thing. If you were on the extreme of total equality which meant that you were socially permitted to be politically correct at all times and were not allowed to have even the slightest fun with your friend on a controversial topic, then I think you've caused a big breach in people's freedom. Not being all for this idea of "total correctness" doesn't mean promoting homophobia.
In fact, I think that more positive changes in people's attitudes and mentalities could be achieved if you were allowed to be more relaxed and flexible with what was said. If you tackle the negative attitudes surrounding and behind the words, but allow them if they are among friends and bare no malice or underlining negativity, doesn't that show us up to be a more approachable subject?
I mean if you can't touch us at all and we are above any sort of other jibe, be it harsh or with no ill intent, doesn't that just highlight that we are different and should be treated differently?

The world will never be a completely politically correct place, ever. I don't believe it to be in combined human nature for it to be so. That doesn't mean it'll always be rife with racism, though. I think that much of the badness and negative meaning can be removed from those jokes, and not just gay related jokes, in order to create a level ground where we can all be more lax about the issue and have a laugh. If there is no bad intent behind these words anymore and they stop causing any harm, what harm are they?
I think to be able to have a laugh and to be able to engage in mutual back-and-forth slagging does a great thing in normalising gay people and making others see them as nothing different. Homophobia shouldn't be accepted or tolerated but it doesn't do as many favours to segregate ourselves so much that we can't be touched like everyone else. That'll make progress no doubt, but I think the progress and complete social acceptance would come much more quickly and readily if we learn to give a little and meet an understandable and fair middle ground.

Annasopra

I'd agree with Ambersky. I think this thread is interesting because it has highlighted differences and diversity and has given people a chance to air them in a respectful manner.

1zred I'm not and have never told you that you should do things differently in your life. It is your life and you can do exactly what you want. However there are a lot of things where I wouldn't agree with you on things in life and I will probably write a longer piece explaining more about this tomorrow.

I do think this has been healthy for you to listen to different perspectives because I think to some extent what you have described in your life is a set of cultural norms about men and lgbt people. Because of how you have grown up with your group of peers you have mainly only experienced life through this lens and my sense is that it's harder for you to think outside of this lens. I think this thread has given you an opportunity to reflect on different views in life.

I'm actually really glad that you have engaged in meaningful and reflectful responses. My perception upto now of you has been someone who can't have a serious or reflective discussion. I think this has changed a lot in this thread.