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O Gara or Keatley? Who should start in Aviva/HCup.

  • 01-10-2012 3:20pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    For me it is time to give youth a chance and go with the pace of Keatley over the experience that ROG offers. I feel like O Gara isn't the shoo in he once was and perhaps Penney may have the balls to make the big call.

    Who should start v Leinster and Racing Metro 22 votes

    O Gara
    0% 0 votes
    Keatley
    100% 22 votes


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,906 ✭✭✭budhabob


    buck65 wrote: »
    For me it is time to give youth a chance and go with the pace of Keatley over the experience that ROG offers. I feel like O Gara isn't the shoo in he once was and perhaps Penney may have the balls to make the big call.

    I think the survey might give skewed results as I'm sure Leinster fans will vote for O'Gara.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭Hippo


    budhabob wrote: »
    I think the survey might give skewed results as I'm sure Leinster fans will vote for O'Gara.

    Leinster fan, voted Keatley


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,906 ✭✭✭budhabob


    Hippo wrote: »
    Leinster fan, voted Keatley

    Wasnt having a dig or anything, but if I were in a similar position I'd probably vote ROG.

    Personnally, on the performances to date it has to be Keatley. I know ROG hasnt had much game time, but we know what he brings at this stage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I put my Munster hat on and voted Keatley


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    A wry smile crossed my face when I read the title.

    Oh for the days of the great ROG V Sexton debate.

    As for the question - For the development of Munster and Ireland then obviously Keatley needs to start


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    Yeah I think we need to look at alternatives, O Gara's game is becoming less relevant by the season. Time catches up but ROG won't break, turns over in contact, can't tackle. A good kicking game can only go so far these days.
    Keatley might well struggle at times but I'm looking at next season and beyond rather than this as I feel we'll suffer from lack of physicality in the pack til these guys develop a bit.
    Look at what happened to Sexton when he got thrown in at the deep end.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,876 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    buck65 wrote: »
    For me it is time to give youth a chance and go with the pace of Keatley over the experience that ROG offers. I feel like O Gara isn't the shoo in he once was and perhaps Penney may have the balls to make the big call.

    I agree with you, but I'd argue giving youth a chance would be starting someone like JJ Hanrahan. Keatley is young compared to ROG but he must be 25 by now. Being too young doesn't remotely come into it now for Keatley, he's either better than ROG or he isn't.

    Anyway based on what I've seen of Munster this season I'd definitely go with Keatley, who in the first half anyway was excellent against Ulster, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if ROG starts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    Not young as such granted but lacks HCup experience, still young for an outhalf as they usually mature late 20s and play til mid 30s and beyond.
    Hanrahan may well be groomed as a 12?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    budhabob wrote: »
    I think the survey might give skewed results as I'm sure Leinster fans will vote for O'Gara.

    I was tempted! But seriously I can't see any reason to start ROG over Keatley.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    I know this isnt the question but I believe ROG will start.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    This is a true litmus test for Penney as a head coach. ROG was at the very core of Munster's success during the previous decade, Penney will literally break with tradition by not playing him!

    To answer your question, Keatley should start. The only flaw to his game that was keeping him back was goalkicking consistency which he seems to have sorted, going by his excellent record in the Rabo so far.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Teferi wrote: »
    As for the question - For the development of Munster and Ireland then obviously Keatley needs to start

    I think it has stopped being about development at this point. Keatley is simply the better fly half.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    durkadurka wrote: »
    I know this isnt the question but I believe ROG will start.

    I think you might be right. I know it makes sense on nearly every level for IK to start. However, I just cannot picture ROG sitting on the bench for a big game. If ROG is second choice for Munster, surely his position as second choice for Ireland becomes untenable as a matter of course? ROG to play and, if he's not playing well, to come off after 50 minutes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 776 ✭✭✭dtpc191991


    Oh God not another ROG vs The World debte. XD


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 776 ✭✭✭dtpc191991


    GerM wrote: »
    I think you might be right. I know it makes sense on nearly every level for IK to start. However, I just cannot picture ROG sitting on the bench for a big game. If ROG is second choice for Munster, surely his position as second choice for Ireland becomes untenable as a matter of course? ROG to play and, if he's not playing well, to come off after 50 minutes.

    Which would be great. Either we'd have to dump him for a younger option or it would expose Kidney for a fool. A win win situation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    GerM wrote: »
    I think you might be right. I know it makes sense on nearly every level for IK to start. However, I just cannot picture ROG sitting on the bench for a big game. If ROG is second choice for Munster, surely his position as second choice for Ireland becomes untenable as a matter of course? ROG to play and, if he's not playing well, to come off after 50 minutes.

    DOC?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Tox56 wrote: »
    DOC?

    I thought of that, alright. DOC started 2 of the last 3 HEC games before the 6N though providing DK with an opportunity to stick with him. If ROG fails to start against Leinster, Racing and Edinburgh, after being on the bench for a year, I can't see how he could hold his place.

    Regardless, I don't want to take things off topic. IK has been very good this season although does need to improve still. He struggles with decision making at times. I've seen him kick very well for territory but sometimes, when he's under pressure in his own half, he continues to try and move it out to his midfield. It will improve with experience though, I'm sure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,979 ✭✭✭✭phog


    GerM wrote: »
    I think you might be right. I know it makes sense on nearly every level for IK to start. However, I just cannot picture ROG sitting on the bench for a big game. If ROG is second choice for Munster, surely his position as second choice for Ireland becomes untenable as a matter of course? ROG to play and, if he's not playing well, to come off after 50 minutes.

    Madigan next year?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    phog wrote: »
    Madigan next year?

    Would be my last choice of the up and coming players.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    durkadurka wrote: »
    I know this isnt the question but I believe ROG will start.

    I simply refuse to believe Penney is that stupid. He has very clearly tried to stamp a new playing style on Munster and ROG inhibits that so much its obvious to everyone except George Hook.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    While I do think we are all being too quick with the pitchforks for ROG - at his age it will take him longer to find form and the Osprey's game was his 6th start in 2012 afaik - Keatley has to start next week. I've also mentioned it in the Munster thread, but I think JJ should be given a shot from the bench against Leinster too. Its our last chance to give him a shot before the HEC and I think he'll be well up for the task.

    Dropping ROG would be a huge display of Penney's character as it would be met with significant outcry from much of the Con Mafia; many of whom are living in a bubble where Stringer and ROG have been good this season. Hopefully the management team will acknowledge that ROG needs to improve his game and dropping him will elicit a positive response from the ever petulant ROG.

    Edit: Its a pity that its not an open poll which allows us to see who has voted for who.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I think it has stopped being about development at this point. Keatley is simply the better fly half.

    Which Keatley has arguably been for the better part of a year...He looked good during the run of games he got last year while ROG was off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    Has to be Keatley.


    ROG was a great player and is a legend, a wonderful servant to both Munster and Ireland. And I don't think he's absolutely finished yet, he still should be able to offer something. But Keatley has done nothing wrong, he fits the gameplan more, he's younger, he deserves to start.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,071 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Teferi wrote: »
    A wry smile crossed my face when I read the title.

    Oh for the days of the great ROG V Sexton debate.

    As for the question - For the development of Munster and Ireland then obviously Keatley needs to start

    think the only person having that debates these days is Kidney:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    wprathead wrote: »
    think the only person having that debates these days is Kidney:D

    Well that's the next question; if Keatley gets the nod and plays well, will Kidney be forced to jettison RoG?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,071 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Well that's the next question; if Keatley gets the nod and plays well, will Kidney be forced to jettison RoG?


    DonnchaOCallaghan_CrokeParkCR.jpg

    :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    GerM wrote: »
    I think you might be right. I know it makes sense on nearly every level for IK to start. However, I just cannot picture ROG sitting on the bench for a big game. If ROG is second choice for Munster, surely his position as second choice for Ireland becomes untenable as a matter of course? ROG to play and, if he's not playing well, to come off after 50 minutes.

    Not with Kidney in charge, certainly not. Think of Tony Buckley, think of Donncha O'Callaghan.


    On the issue at hand, I can't think of a single reason why ROG should start ahead of Keatley. However, I think Penney is going to bottle the call. The only thing I can think of to counter that is that Keatley got a full 20mins against the Ospreys. That is a fairly significant amount of gametime.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    Should be an atari jaguar option. I'm right on the fence with this one


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 197 ✭✭Zuffer


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    Has to be Keatley.


    ROG was a great player and is a legend, a wonderful servant to both Munster and Ireland. And I don't think he's absolutely finished yet, he still should be able to offer something. But Keatley has done nothing wrong, he fits the gameplan more, he's younger, he deserves to start.

    This, exactly.

    It's not an easy call. An old military maxim is to do what your enemy would least want you to do. I'm a Leinster fan, and I believe Leinster have a better chance of winning on Saturday if O'Gara starts. From a Munster pov, Keatley is the right choice.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    I don't think ROG offers anything more than Keatley can at this stage. Despite age difference, Keatley should be there on merrit imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    I suppose my pro-Keatley stance is based solely on the fact that O Gara to me is beyond it at this stage and apart from kicking both from hand and tee and game management offers little else, all these things are very important but we need to realise that his powers are waning and he needs to be replaced.

    He would offer more off the bench I think. Keatley needs to make the mistakes to develop his game. He needs the same time and space that O Gara was afforded in his early years - before he goes elsewhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    buck65 wrote: »
    I suppose my pro-Keatley stance is based solely on the fact that O Gara to me is beyond it at this stage and apart from kicking both from hand and tee and game management offers little else, all these things are very important but we need to realise that his powers are waning and he needs to be replaced.

    I would argue that O'Gara's game management in the last 6-9 months has been terrible. I think that maybe "game management" has become synonymous with "pinging it into the corners", but it is far, far more than that.

    Going back to the Ulster QF last season, I think pretty much every time he's been in possession he's taken the wrong option, usually to kick for position when he's got men screaming for a pass, then the last Ulster game when he refused to get into position for the drop.

    With the backs that Munster are assembling and the apparently positive influence of Penney and Mannix, they need an OH who can get the backline moving. Only one of Keatley and O'Gara has any hope of doing that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,407 ✭✭✭✭justsomebloke


    *mod warning* please don't let this derail into a RoG versus oh errr emmm.....actually what the hell do I warn against in this!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    I'd agree Totallegend that O Gara's game management and choices do leave alot to be desired these days. I feel that kicking the corners now is something you do to get out of trouble rather than building an attack base.
    Most lineouts are won by the throwing team and Munster do tend to give away penalties at maul and scrum time (often the results of a lineout).
    Perhaps running the ball now and pick and go exposes us less to these facets of rugby. Plus we don't have a no. 8 with Coughlan injured so even controlling the ball on our own put in is beyond us! We need a running outhalf.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 240 ✭✭Rickwellwood


    If Keats is to really step up he has to start - ROG is still a force but Keatley is the heir apparent so has to be given a shot and should start at 10 imo


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,941 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    *mod warning* please don't let this derail into a RoG versus oh errr emmm.....actually what the hell do I warn against in this!!!


    I think the debate is ROG. v. Father Time and there is only one winner as we all discover.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    Probably a stupid question but could politics play a part in this at all, will Penney have complete free reign to make a decision or could the fact that ROG is on an international contract and Keatley not lead to some pressure(explicit or implicit) coming on Penney.

    Not ROG bashing btw, more a general question about international contracts.

    I'd go with Keatley btw, if ROG performs poorly do you want to be pitching Keatley into an away game with Racing on the back of virtually no experience of starting big games for Munster, at least if you start with Keatley and he doesnt do well you'd expect somewhat of a backlash from ROG the following week if he were to come in.




  • Stop comparing rog and doc rog has gone past it doc is still a very good player just playing in a position were we have a lot of depth at the mo


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    Well said.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    Stop comparing rog and doc rog has gone past it doc is still a very good player just playing in a position were we have a lot of depth at the mo

    O Callaghan has been good this season so far for us but a shadow of his former self til now.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    buck65 wrote: »
    O Callaghan has been good this season so far for us but a shadow of his former self til now.

    He wasn't bad at all last season


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    He wasn't bad at all last season

    And he had a great 6N the year before.

    Just because we have better options, doesn't make DOC a bad player.




  • buck65 wrote: »
    Stop comparing rog and doc rog has gone past it doc is still a very good player just playing in a position were we have a lot of depth at the mo

    O Callaghan has been good this season so far for us but a shadow of his former self til now.
    I agree he's not what he was but off the bench in particular I think he offers far more than rog


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    He wasn't bad at all last season

    Agreed. Still a decent player and a good bench option.

    Peoples views of him may be becoming skewered due to him holding players back for Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    If Penney does drop ROG I hope he has a stern word with him and instructs him not to throw his toys out of the pram to the media like he has with the Irish selection. Kidney let him away with murder in that regard and had to have an effect on squad moral.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    shuffol wrote: »
    Probably a stupid question but could politics play a part in this at all, will Penney have complete free reign to make a decision or could the fact that ROG is on an international contract and Keatley not lead to some pressure(explicit or implicit) coming on Penney.

    Might be more of an issue if ROG was in competition with a Johnny Foreigner but if the IRFU were meddling in a Munster selection to the detriment of a younger Irish guy breaking through and possibly putting himself forward for national selection, it would be total lunacy, so you would assume not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,768 ✭✭✭eyeball kid


    Really interested in seeing what Penney does this weekend. It will really tell us what he thinks his strongest team is (including where he plays Earls)

    I think Keatley should start. He's been playing well for Munster. I know ROG hasn't played much this season but I think its time to give Keatley a decent run in the big matches.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,979 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    ..................throw his toys out of the pram to the media like he has with the Irish selection. Kidney let him away with murder in that regard and had to have an effect on squad moral.

    Pure bullsh*t


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    phog wrote: »
    Pure bullsh*t

    The first bit isn't...
    Foxtrol wrote: »
    not to throw his toys out of the pram to the media like he has with the Irish selection.

    I can't comment on the second bit though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Teferi wrote: »
    The first bit isn't...

    Link?


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