Tiger's Putt and giving the other one

FixdePitchmark

What did ye make of it lads.

His thinking ?
His Sportsmanship ?
Was he just pissed off ?

slave1

Pissed and wanted to get out of there as soon as possible, Molari's face was disbelief.

RikkFlair

A 14-14 draw meant nothing to him, not sure it would've meant anything to the US team either. I'd say Molinari would've made the putt anyway.

FixdePitchmark

slave1 wrote: »

Pissed and wanted to get out of there as soon as possible, Molari's face was disbelief.

I think (lol) I agree - has me thinking all night and day - I'd say the bookies are going mental over it.

But, if he did it in sportsmanship , it was a class act.

Of course , his pr guys will tell him what to say , if it was him just pissed off.

FixdePitchmark

RikkFlair wrote: »

A 14-14 draw meant nothing to him, not sure it would've meant anything to the US team either. I'd say Molinari would've made the putt anyway.

I've seen Molinari a bit shaky over big ones - play offs, last few holes.

Kace

I wasn't surprised at all by what Woods did. Perfect sportsmanship, where his own putt was the important thing.

What did surprise me was Kuchar forcing Westwood to putt out. Although, Westwood did say to him straight afterwards that he would have asked the same of him, and also indicated in a post-match interview that he was planking it.

FixdePitchmark

Kace wrote: »

I wasn't surprised at all by what Woods did. Perfect sportsmanship, where his own putt was the important thing.

What did surprise me was Kuchar forcing Westwood to putt out. Although, Westwood did say to him straight afterwards that he would have asked the same of him, and also indicated in a post-match interview that he was planking it.

I know this is mad - but i was looking at Westwoods putt, it was a bit of a jab. He was even in a bad way talking about it after.

FixdePitchmark

RikkFlair wrote: »

A 14-14 draw meant nothing to him, not sure it would've meant anything to the US team either. I'd say Molinari would've made the putt anyway.

Does that sum up Tiger.

It was not about him.

14 - 14 meant the world to some.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

What did ye make of it lads.

His thinking ?
His Sportsmanship ?
Was he just pissed off ?

I'm still not sure if it was because:
- He doesnt care about the Ryder Cup and 1/2 point means nothing to him
or
- He understands the etiquette of the game and acknowledges that you should try to win, not try to make the other guy lose.

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was the latter.

brick tamland

I think 14-14 v 14.5-13.5 makes very little difference in the grand scheme of thingS. Wouldnt habe made any difference to either team if Molinari missed. Good sportsmanship from tiger IMO

RikkFlair

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I've seen Molinari a bit shaky over big ones - play offs, last few holes.

Yeah but I just think with the pressure off, the fact the Cup was already retained, I'd say he would've given it a good ol rattle into the back of the cup.

JoeyJJ

The Draw meant 11/1 payout to me

brick tamland

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Does that sum up Tiger.

It was not about him.

14 - 14 meant the world to some.

I really dont think it mattered a damn to any of the americans at that stage

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm still not sure if it was because:
- He doesnt care about the Ryder Cup and 1/2 point means nothing to him
or
- He understands the etiquette of the game and acknowledges that you should try to win, not try to make the other guy lose.

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was the latter.

Fair play giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Many wouldn't give Tiger that, at this stage.

Dun laoire

I think he should have made molanari putt out and test his nerves, granted Europe had the trophy retained but to some the losing would be an extra smack in the chops. As a Captain Davis Love might be a bit pissed off about it too. Records will say he lost rather than drew.

Certainly wasnt a gimme so not sure where you lads are going with sportsmanship. Woods is not a team player anyway

FixdePitchmark

Dun laoire wrote: »

I think he should have made molanari putt out and test his nerves, granted Europe had the trophy retained but to some the losing would be an extra smack in the chops. As a Captain Davis Love might be a bit pissed off about it too. Records will say he lost rather than drew.

Certainly wasnt a gimme so not sure where you lads are going with sportsmanship. Woods is not a team player anyway

I think that is where I am - I'm open ears on this one.

onlyfinewine

Padraig was on the radio this morning and his opinion was that the history books will show a win not a draw.

In that regard the putt was huge! Molinari would probably have sunk it 9 times out of 10 but it still leaves the question out there.

Was it sportsmanship in the overall context or Tiger just conceding a half in his match. We will never know for sure.

So the final result equals Brookline in 1999 when the USA team came back from 10/6 down and will be written up as such.

GreeBo

Dun laoire wrote: »

I think he should have made molanari putt out and test his nerves, granted Europe had the trophy retained but to some the losing would be an extra smack in the chops. As a Captain Davis Love might be a bit pissed off about it too. Records will say he lost rather than drew.

Certainly wasnt a gimme so not sure where you lads are going with sportsmanship. Woods is not a team player anyway

The classy thing to do is not to test someones nerve when in the bigger picture it makes no real difference. Europe already had retained the cup and had the moral victory. It would only end badly, either he gets it and Tiger is bad for making him putt out or he misses and they both look bad.

Tiger made the choice himself and I applaud him for it.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

The classy thing to do is not to test someones nerve when in the bigger picture it makes no real difference. Europe already had retained the cup and had the moral victory. It would only end badly, either he gets it and Tiger is bad for making him putt out or he misses and they both look bad.

Tiger made the choice himself and I applaud him for it.

But is Tiger a big picture guy ?

Did he make a mental error.

Dun laoire

GreeBo wrote: »

The classy thing to do is not to test someones nerve when in the bigger picture it makes no real difference. Europe already had retained the cup and had the moral victory. It would only end badly, either he gets it and Tiger is bad for making him putt out or he misses and they both look bad.

Tiger made the choice himself and I applaud him for it.

I understand where you're coming from but to some USA losing rather than Europe retaining could make a difference. One thing we all must agree on though is that it was no gimme. Must have been the bones of 2 meters

TheDoc

I think it was etiquette and sportsmanship. Matchplay has a certain way of being played, lost on most especially going by the recent thread here on conceding putts in matchplay.

Especially at the highest level, as said above, you win the match, not make the other guy lose.

And the U.S are historical in their attempts at not conceding putts, its not a big things, no one is going to cry over it, sometimes its just a bit childish to see.

The Kuchar one springs to mind, but moreso the Johnson on Coelsaerts. I enjoyed Coelsaerts later on, when Johnson looked over for the concede, him smiling and shaking his head.

But you see how they look at each other over small putts, expecting to be given.

Nobody would enjoy seeing a fellow proffesional be embarrassed over a small putt.

I'd like to think Tiger was playing in the matchplay spirit, to continue what was a good sporting week in terms of mutual respect. And Tiger has a good history of playing matchplay in the right way.

FixdePitchmark

Dun laoire wrote: »

I understand where you're coming from but to some USA losing rather than Europe retaining could make a difference. One thing we all must agree on though is that it was no gimme. Must have been the bones of 2 meters

I agree.

It is crazy if people think that some American FANS would not want a draw.
The whole retention idea , is debatable.

Ollie , was focused on the next move with francesco - he wanted a win. We wanted a win.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

The classy thing to do is not to test someones nerve when in the bigger picture it makes no real difference. Europe already had retained the cup and had the moral victory. It would only end badly, either he gets it and Tiger is bad for making him putt out or he misses and they both look bad.

Tiger made the choice himself and I applaud him for it.

I don't think the vast majority of people expected him to concede though!
So if Molinari missed, I don't think Tiger would have looked bad for making him putt out to win, it was far from a gimme.

I think it would have been a classy act if Woods had intended to do it for those reasons you stated, but my take on it is that he only did it because he was p1ssed off with himself for missing.

FixdePitchmark

I'm trying to give Tiger a break the last few months.

But, I think he does not see outside his own world.
He has had an odd life. In the public eye for ever.

the lawman

I'm with GreeBo on this. Tiger has been involved in a load of Ryder Cups so he must of known the bigger picture. He knew it was retained while standing on the fairway. he probably decided to do what he did, if it came up, walking up to the green.

In my opinion it was a very classy thing to do. If Rory/Lee/Ian/Justin did this we would be all over it saying how great he was but because its Tiger we're doubting it.

GreeBo

Tiger wanted to win his match, tried and failed.
He didnt want to see Molinari lose it, thats how golf is supposed to be played fellas.

FixdePitchmark

the lawman wrote: »

I'm with GreeBo on this. Tiger has been involved in a load of Ryder Cups so he must of known the bigger picture. He knew it was retained while standing on the fairway. he probably decided to do what he did, if it came up, walking up to the green.

In my opinion it was a very classy thing to do. If Rory/Lee/Ian/Justin did this we would be all over it saying how great he was but because its Tiger we're doubting it.

But, hang on - he did it, just at the time he missed.

It was done during an emotional time. He has issues with his emotions.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

Tiger wanted to win his match, tried and failed.
He didnt want to see Molinari lose it, thats how golf is supposed to be played fellas.

GreeBo - I think you never fell out of love with Tiger.

Some of us did.

He is not the soundest bloke in the world. But, this is not a Tiger person debate. I think his state of mind comes into play here. But look , only Tiger knows. Again , the lad had a strange life. He may not think the way you do on this. You play golf like that, you are normal, Tiger is not a normal bloke in many ways.

I'd love to think what you are saying is true.

onlyfinewine

the lawman wrote: »

I'm with GreeBo on this. Tiger has been involved in a load of Ryder Cups so he must of known the bigger picture. He knew it was retained while standing on the fairway. he probably decided to do what he did, if it came up, walking up to the green.

In my opinion it was a very classy thing to do. If Rory/Lee/Ian/Justin did this we would be all over it saying how great he was but because its Tiger we're doubting it.

I can see where you are coming from, but when I remember Tiger lipping out on his chip on the 18th the idea of a plan having been formed coming up the fairway seems a bit unlikely. I'm pretty sure that he did not plan to miss the putt either despite a post on this thread suggesting he might have done it on purpose. My feeling is that he was really p*ssed off with his overall performance and just gave the putt in a knee jerk reaction to missing his par putt. It was conceded quite quickly when I think back on it.

FixdePitchmark

onlyfinewine wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from, but when I remember Tiger lipping out on his chip on the 18th the idea of a plan having been formed coming up the fairway seems a bit unlikely. I'm pretty sure that he did not plan to miss the putt either despite a post on this thread suggesting he might have done it on purpose. My feeling is that he was really p*ssed off with his overall performance and just gave the putt in a knee jerk reaction to missing his par putt. It was conceded quite quickly when I think back on it.

That's it I think.

Mental error and pissed off.

He should have looked at his captain even. But it was a tough moment.

BoardsMember

I don't believe it was anything to do with class or sportsmanship. People here are not taking it in context. Lets face it, he had a simple (by Tiger's standards) up and down to win a point. It looked to me like he tried to make the chip, rather than lag it up. It's all about Tiger. Always has been, always will be. He wanted to show everyone how good he was, and sink the chip. When he hadn't done that, he wanted to ram that putt in. When he failed to do that he was pissed off and just wanted to get out of there.

Jaysoose

I was delighted...had a tenner on the win @8/1...

Thanks tiger.

FixdePitchmark

BoardsMember wrote: »

I don't believe it was anything to do with class or sportsmanship. People here are not taking it in context. Lets face it, he had a simple (by Tiger's standards) up and down to win a point. It looked to me like he tried to make the chip, rather than lag it up. It's all about Tiger. Always has been, always will be. He wanted to show everyone how good he was, and sink the chip. When he hadn't done that, he wanted to ram that putt in. When he failed to do that he was pissed off and just wanted to get out of there.

It was a bad chip.

Looked great that it hit hole, but it would have gone 7 , 8 feet past on the other side.
Bad error by Tiger.

But if it went in , all that there is bull**** (lol)

the lawman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

It was a bad chip.

Looked great that it hit hole, but it would have gone 7 , 8 feet past on the other side.
Bad error by Tiger.

But if it went in , all that there is bull**** (lol)

To be fair we're all just guessing why he did it. People can remember it how they want to but I know I'll put it down to a touch of humility from Tiger.

Of course he is selfish and single-minded but in that moment I just think simple golf etiquette took over. I just don't believe someone of Tigers experience would hand a half point away for a mental mistake or anger at himself.

FixdePitchmark

the lawman wrote: »

To be fair we're all just guessing why he did it. People can remember it how they want to but I know I'll put it down to a touch of humility from Tiger.

Of course he is selfish and single-minded but in that moment I just think simple golf etiquette took over. I just don't believe someone of Tigers experience would hand a half point away for a mental mistake or anger at himself.

Fair enough the lawman. I'll listen to wisdom.

I think he looks like he has regrets these days. But, he has his life, he has his problems. I have mine - live and let live.

Fair play Tiger, if that is the truth - you have given me hope. I need to stop with the if.

FixdePitchmark

I'm heading off to make money.

Real life - good chat lads.

slave1

“It was already over. We came here as a team – this is a team event. And the cup had already been retained by Europe, so it was already over. You come here as a team and you win or lose as a team, and it’s pointless to even finish. So 18 was just, hey, get this over with” – Tiger Woods

FixdePitchmark

slave1 wrote: »

“It was already over. We came here as a team – this is a team event. And the cup had already been retained by Europe, so it was already over. You come here as a team and you win or lose as a team, and it’s pointless to even finish. So 18 was just, hey, get this over with” – Tiger Woods

Well then, that was a mental error by Tiger. (IMO).

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Well then, that was a mental error by Tiger. (IMO).

Can a conscious decision ever be a mental error?

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

Can a conscious decision ever be a mental error?

Fair enough - word play.

But it was not Tiger's decision, he did not think that way. He was not thinking of the team , by throwing it away, as he himself is saying.

Maybe not a mental error, just mental.

onlyfinewine

slave1 wrote: »

“It was already over. We came here as a team – this is a team event. And the cup had already been retained by Europe, so it was already over. You come here as a team and you win or lose as a team, and it’s pointless to even finish. So 18 was just, hey, get this over with” – Tiger Woods

I think the full options are "Win, Lose or Draw"

What happened to the draw part? Ask Galway or Kilkenny, it wasn't over the first time.

The match will be recorded as a win for Europe, much different to a halved match in my opinion.

GreeBo

onlyfinewine wrote: »

I think the full options are "Win, Lose or Draw"

What happened to the draw part? Ask Galway or Kilkenny, it wasn't over the first time.

The match will be recorded as a win for Europe, much different to a halved match in my opinion.

No, its Win, Loose or Retain.
There is no replay in the event of a tie.
Europe had already retained the cup, the contest was over.

onlyfinewine

GreeBo wrote: »

Can a conscious decision ever be a mental error?

OOOH YES, I've made plenty of them...:)

Hogzy

Anyone know where there is a clip of his putt?

PARlance

slave1 wrote: »

“It was already over. We came here as a team – this is a team event. And the cup had already been retained by Europe, so it was already over. You come here as a team and you win or lose as a team, and it’s pointless to even finish. So 18 was just, hey, get this over with” – Tiger Woods

These guys are surrounded by Media/PR/Sponsorship teams that train them the right things to say. I read very little into quotes like this and it just doesn't make any sense anyway.

If it's "pointless to even finish" then why didn't he concede the hole as they were on the 18th fairway looking up at all the celebrations after Kaymer holed out.
He had several chances to do concede...on the fairway, before Molinari's birdie putt, before his own chip in or before his missed putt.

It was only "pointless to even finish" in the split second after he missed.
I can't buy into the fact that it was good sportsmanship from him at all.

But hey, we're all going to have different interpretations of his actions. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think we'll ever know. I certainly wouldn't be taking what a professional sportsman says as his real feelings though.

onlyfinewine

GreeBo wrote: »

No, its Win, Loose or Retain.
There is no replay in the event of a tie.
Europe had already retained the cup, the contest was over.

No the saying is definitely is "Win, Lose or Draw" and the tie is what is recorded. The retain part has to do with who has custody of the trophy until the next matches are played.

The contest was not over because the final result went down to the final match and Tiger's concession of a match winning putt of 4 or 5 feet was a mental error in my judgement due to his not making a chip in birdie or even a par at the last and one Davis Love would not have conceded if he was asked.

If you look up the records of previous Ryder Cups you will find that there are only two matches that ended in a tie, 1969 in Birkdale and 1989 at the Belfry but in this case the match was not over and who would willingly give away the win instead of a draw for a bit of showboating?

These are the results of the previous tied matches.

Score: USA 16, Great Britain 16, tie (U.S. retains the Cup)
Site: Royal Birkdale Golf Club in Southport England
Captains: USA - Sam Snead; Great Britain - Eric Brown
For the first time ever, the Ryder Cup ended in a tie. The 1969 Ryder Cup finished 16-16, but since Team USA held the cup entering the match, the Americans retained possession with the tie. Still, the tie was a significant achievement for Great Britain given that the Brits' only victory since 1933 was at the 1957 Ryder Cup (and the USA would not lose again until the 1985 Ryder Cup).

Score: Europe 14, U.S. 14 (Europe retains the Cup)
Site: The Belfry Golf & Country Club (Brabazon Course), Sutton Coldfield, England
Captains: USA - Raymond Floyd; Europe - Tony Jacklin
Europe and USA halved the 1989 Ryder Cup match, just the second time in Ryder Cup history to this point that the match ended in a tie. (The first was at the 1969 Ryder Cup.) And since a tie goes to the holder of the Cup, the Cup remained with Team Europe (Europe had won the 1987 matches).
This marked Europe's third consecutive time winning or holding onto the Cup - a first in event history. This was also Tony Jacklin's fourth time captaining Team Europe. He managed two wins, one defeat and one halve in his four times as a Ryder Cup captain.

GreeBo

Its pretty much the same as Nicklaus in Birkdale.

At the par-5 finishing hole, both Jacklin and Nicklaus got on the green in two. Nicklaus ran his eagle putt five feet past the hole, while Jacklin left his two foot short. Nicklaus then sank his birdie putt, and with a crowd of 8,000 people watching, picked up Jacklin's marker, conceding the putt Jacklin needed to tie the matches. With the United States team already holding the cup, the tie allowed it to retain the cup.[12][13] "I don't think you would have missed that putt," Nicklaus said to Jacklin afterwards, "but in these circumstances I would never give you the opportunity."

GreeBo

onlyfinewine wrote: »

who would willingly give away the win instead of a draw for a bit of showboating?

Some J Nicklaus fella did it in 1969.

onlyfinewine

GreeBo wrote: »

Some J Nicklaus fella did it in 1969.

I posted about this in a previous thread as a class act.

However Jacklins 2 or 3 foot putt was to halve the overall result whereas Molinari's 4 or 5 foot putt was to win the match overall.

Missing it would have still left the European's halving the matches and retaining the Ryder Cup, so not quite the same thing.

brick tamland

Wasn’t there something similar in 2002 and Tiger shook on his match on the 18th tee at A/S. Sergio was messing on the hole in front of them so they just shook and took a half.

I cant believe such a big thing is being made of this to be honest.

the lawman

onlyfinewine wrote: »

I posted about this in a previous thread as a class act.

However Jacklins 2 or 3 foot putt was to halve the overall result whereas Molinari's 4 or 5 foot putt was to win the match overall.

Missing it would have still left the European's halving the matches and retaining the Ryder Cup, so not quite the same thing.

I think you're splitting hairs here to be honest. They are very similar incidents.

Both guys took a half rather than making the other guy putt. Only difference is Woods knew he was on the losing side while Jack knew he was on the winning side. Probably an easier thing for a winning player to do rather than a losing player IMO.