PSA Guys.

belfast security

Hello,

Aiming this one at all the professional installers on here. With regards to equipment what are you guys using in the republic? Up here we are used to the Galaxy and Scantronic ranges mostly with the odd Guardall and Aritech thrown in for good measure!

I must say i really like the idea of the PSA, from what i can gather they are keen to keep the cowboys from making a mess! I understand that the Intruder and CCTV is regulated but what about access control systems? is that regulated at the minute or is it going to be?

altor

belfast security wrote: »

Hello,

Aiming this one at all the professional installers on here. With regards to equipment what are you guys using in the republic? Up here we are used to the Galaxy and Scantronic ranges mostly with the odd Guardall and Aritech thrown in for good measure!

I must say i really like the idea of the PSA, from what i can gather they are keen to keep the cowboys from making a mess! I understand that the Intruder and CCTV is regulated but what about access control systems? is that regulated at the minute or is it going to be?

HKC would be the most popular brand used, other systems would be SPC, Risco, Visonic, Pyronix, Aritect..

I like the idea of the PSA also but to be honest I don't believe they can police the industry.
There are too many rouge traders still out there installing alarm systems.
CCTV and Access Control will be covered by license from October. Again, I cant see how they will be able to police this either. If you look at the PSA website all they seem to be convicting anyone of is more to do with security guards acting illegally. I have had plenty of people asking for a price for an alarm system only to be told that there friend or sparks can do it cheaper. Of course they can, they dont have to pay for the license. To be honest it will be the same for CCTV and Access control.

belfast security

Same problem here unfortunately Altor.
Ive just stuck a sticker on the van saying "alarms joinery, sparking, I.T, furniture removal" joke!
Although was speaking to our inspector the other day and he pointed out that it simply takes a phone call to PSA to report the rouge trader-(dont get me wrong im sure there are plenty of guys who are more than capable at doing the job but dont have the license- its just a bit disheartening when a man in a van is undercutting and doing a terrible job at the same time!

You dublin based?

KoolKid

The PSA is a good idea in principle. In practice they seem afraid to chase prosecutions. I have sent them plenty of information on plenty of occasions & it all amounts to nothing more than a warning at best.

altor

Reporting it is fine.
As far as I can see they want it on a plate, 100% before they will even consider bringing it to court. They could do more for the industry to be honest.

Jnealon

Psa is a great idea on paper but in practice it's not working when it comes to the electronic security side of it.
A quick read of their conference report highlights that things will not get any better. The certification is a joke and lacks any back bone, kind of similar to nsi and ssiab situation but a lot worse
Tbh most guys down here would not know what to do with a G2 galaxy never mind a G3, hence the popularity of the hkc

belfast security

Well hopefully it gets sorted out eventually! I had a quick look at the HKC, made in Ireland? Do they have a version compliant with PD6662? or is it only EN compliant?

belfast security

I have heard from a few that its common practice to install window contacts in Dublin. Are you installing inertia contacts or are they just reeds?

Jnealon

belfast security wrote: »

Well hopefully it gets sorted out eventually! I had a quick look at the HKC, made in Ireland? Do they have a version compliant with PD6662? or is it only EN compliant?

Yes it's available in UK but Alarm Supplies in Belfast don't or can't stock it

KoolKid

belfast security wrote: »

I have heard from a few that its common practice to install window contacts in Dublin. Are you installing inertia contacts or are they just reeds?

Most times its inertias on all ground floor & accessible windows.

altor

belfast security wrote: »

Well hopefully it gets sorted out eventually! I had a quick look at the HKC, made in Ireland? Do they have a version compliant with PD6662? or is it only EN compliant?

We are only waiting 6 years so far. Introducing the license for CCTV and Access control when they cant police the Alarms side of things is not going to make life any easier for us or them.

kub

Belfast Security,
Firstly welcome onboard these pages, just on the PSA. They are part of The Department of Justice and are a very handy way of raising revenue for the dept.

As nice and all as the staff are and I have no issue with them whatsoever, all they do is collect indirect tax. What do we get back? Nothing.

I was thinking this to myself actually recently while listening to a Safe Electric add on the radio. The general public down here have no idea of the PSA, also they do not know that they would be committing an offence by employing someone who is not licensed to install an alarm or soon to be CCTV or Access Control System.
I expected them to be all over the airwaves informing everyone of these new laws etc,back when they came into existance, but it never happened.

belfast security

Cheers Kub!

oh right didnt realise it was actually part of the justice department!!!! Would be good to have something set up like that here, provided it worked of course!

I guess its a good idea with the windows, probably just down to cost up here and thats the way its stayed! who knows! but I had a lady from Dublin think we were mad when we didnt suggest these to her!!! all sorted now though

On a different note can you guys not maybe look into a bit of advertising on your own? A couple of bill boards / facebook pages / and a bit of radio would at least get the message out! I know you would be helping people who didnt contribute but at least your names would be on the boards to!

kub

Good idea Belfast, most of us guys on here (and I am generalising) are from what I gather sole traders/ smallish business owners. As such we do not have a national body, there is the Irish Security Industry Association, but they seem to be made up of bigger companies and manned guarding/ Cit business's.
Very easy of course to pass the book, but I for one would have expected them to take up the advertising when the PSA failed to do so. I am just judging by the companies involved in the ISIA and would conclude that they are the ones with the deeper pockets.
Either way unlicensed installers probably do not bother the bigger companies so why would they bother I suppose. I mean its not too often that we see blank bell boxes on large commercial premises.
I am not at all refering to any of my fellow contributors/ engineers on here when I say this, but with this country the way it is now financially speaking, it seems to be every man to his own, now.
I do recall a few years ago an installer in the midlands was trying to get a group of us smaller companies together to put a repersentative onto the board of The PSA, but despite his best efforts etc, it never happened.

Just on your query re inertia sensors. Approx 12 years ago when I had a cushy number as a service engineer, in a past life, the company I worked for employed a chap from London, he had spent a long time working in the business over there. I will never forget the look on his face when he discovered that we still use inertia shock sensors. They are still my first choice, when married up with reeds. Especially from the part guard and detection before trespass advantages.

altor

We got a mention on 98FM today re the CCTV and Access control.
No mention of alarms as usual in the ad.

KoolKid

If my last inspector is anything to go by the CCTV inspections should be fun.
Spent most of his time checking the tampers on 2 grade 1 systems.
And arguing why 1.5 flex must be protected by a 3 amp fuse. He couldn't explain why though.;)

altor

If the control panel is connected to the fuse board on its own breaker it does not need a fused spur.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

If the control panel is connected to the fuse board on its own breaker it does not need a fused spur.

I've had that argument with a couple of them before as well....

altor

They really have to get over the old standard and start looking at the new one

KoolKid

Hard for them to do that when they don't seem to actually understand the reasoning behind anything they ask for.

altor

Well thats what we are here for..

KoolKid

Yeah , maybe we should introduce some of them to Boards.ie ....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Oh wait... We did that before , didn't we...:rolleyes:

altor

Thats true. Shame they had to go through all the bother just to get an answer to a question that they should know since they are involved in the standards

kub

altor wrote: »

We got a mention on 98FM today re the CCTV and Access control.
No mention of alarms as usual in the ad.

Altor, I was shocked when I heard it this morning. Infairness to The PSA I have to thank them for this. God knows they get a lot of grief in these parts.
Obviously it is a national campaign, pity about the alarms though.

Jnealon

altor wrote: »

If the control panel is connected to the fuse board on its own breaker it does not need a fused spur.

The smallest breaker you can get is 6 amp, the regs "used" to say that it had to be protected by a 3 amp fuse.

Also the reason for the neon spur at the panel is that you have a visual indication that there is power going to the panel.

KoolKid

The fuse is only protecting the cable not the panel. The panel will be protected by its own fuse which will be lower again.

altor

kub wrote: »

Altor, I was shocked when I heard it this morning. Infairness to The PSA I have to thank them for this. God knows they get a lot of grief in these parts.
Obviously it is a national campaign, pity about the alarms though.

It is really because it is the first time I have heard any ad of its type on the radio. It is about time they did more with ads on the telly, newspapers and so on. Oh yes and a few more published convictions would not go astray as a real deterrent. Although if the stories I have heard are anything to go by it will be a long time before we see anymore convictions..

altor

Jnealon wrote: »

The smallest breaker you can get is 6 amp, the regs "used" to say that it had to be protected by a 3 amp fuse.

Also the reason for the neon spur at the panel is that you have a visual indication that there is power going to the panel.

I like the way you said "used" to say
I would still install the 3 amp fused neon spur.

belfast security

Lads glad to hear there was a shout out on the radio!

Seriously would consider doing your own bit on the bill boards!!! others will get the benefit sure but it will be your name on the sign that the consultants etc will be seeing!

As far as inspectors go...................... ah forget it!

altor

belfast security wrote: »

Lads glad to hear there was a shout out on the radio!

Seriously would consider doing your own bit on the bill boards!!! others will get the benefit sure but it will be your name on the sign that the consultants etc will be seeing!

As far as inspectors go...................... ah forget it!

To be honest Belfast Security, costs are enough each year without having to spend more to deter others for the PSA. It should be them doing more inspections plus more advertisements for all aspects of the industry, not just for the CCTV and Access Control. Not us. I do agree it is a good idea for us to do something but for us to do it and others to benefit, that is not going to happen.

ecaf

kub wrote: »

Altor, I was shocked when I heard it this morning. Infairness to The PSA I have to thank them for this. God knows they get a lot of grief in these parts.
Obviously it is a national campaign, pity about the alarms though.

I'm just a customer starting to find out about Alarm systems and possibly automatic gates in the future. I heard these ads for the PSA last week and looked it up today. But from what I can see their website seems to be just trying to get companies to register. There is nothing on it about Customers or 'Click here to see a list of registered installers', which you would imagine there would be given that they are telling us to use only registered installers...
I've got a list from boards.ie for alarm installers, but any website I have been on I haven't seen on any of them (except 1) that mentions that they are PSA certified.

I know nothing about it, but to me it all seems to be just in the planning stage. Maybe in a few years it is something we will all be familiar with???

KoolKid

The PSA site does have a list of all licenced companys in the relevant. It is now a legal requirement for a customer to employ a licenced installer to install or maintain their alarm system.

altor

ecaf wrote: »

I'm just a customer starting to find out about Alarm systems and possibly automatic gates in the future. I heard these ads for the PSA last week and looked it up today. But from what I can see their website seems to be just trying to get companies to register. There is nothing on it about Customers or 'Click here to see a list of registered installers', which you would imagine there would be given that they are telling us to use only registered installers...
I've got a list from boards.ie for alarm installers, but any website I have been on I haven't seen on any of them (except 1) that mentions that they are PSA certified.

I know nothing about it, but to me it all seems to be just in the planning stage. Maybe in a few years it is something we will all be familiar with???

Here you go.

Mylow

altor wrote: »

Here you go.

The whole PSA thing is a money making racket full stop.

"New entrant
The facility will consist of 3 payments of

-€1,250 payable when the application is lodged.

-€500 payable 6 months after the expiry of the existing licence.

-€500 payable 12 months after the expiry of the existing licence."


I provide KNX based systems, as part of that I can provide access control and IP based CCTV which integrates into the Homeserver system. I might install 3 systems a years with CCTV and Access control, I will now have to add €400 to the cost of these systems to cover the cost of PSA registration. Core business is not CCTV or access control, it is a building management system.

Jnealon

you've a few options, one being sub out the cctv and access

Mylow

Jnealon wrote: »

you've a few options, one being sub out the cctv and access

I don't know of any PSA contractor who can work on KNX protocol for access control. I think its a joke that I would need to employ a contractor to install to IP camera's. I provide a POE connection for the camera and they fit camera..it is just laughable.

farrell2121

altor wrote: »

To be honest Belfast Security, costs are enough each year without having to spend more to deter others for the PSA. It should be them doing more inspections plus more advertisements for all aspects of the industry, not just for the CCTV and Access Control. Not us. I do agree it is a good idea for us to do something but for us to do it and others to benefit, that is not going to happen.

Just wonderding in relation to the PSA, What if someone who has a criminal record, can they still hold a PSA Licence ? A little bit worrying ?

KoolKid

Depends on what it is & how long they are in the industry I think.

farrell2121

KoolKid wrote: »

The PSA site does have a list of all licenced companys in the relevant. It is now a legal requirement for a customer to employ a licenced installer to install or maintain their alarm system.

Just wondering. Can someone who is a licensed installer with a criminal record be PSA Approvied ? That would be a bit of a worry ? I think a might know one

farrell2121

KoolKid wrote: »

Depends on what it is & how long they are in the industry I think.

A little bit worrying that someone with a record or their brother could be installing alarm systems ?

altor

farrell2121 wrote: »

A little bit worrying that someone with a record or their brother could be installing alarm systems ?

There have being plenty of cases where this has happened.
Some licenses where revoked by the PSA.

farrell2121

altor wrote: »

There have being plenty of cases where this has happened.
Some licenses where revoked by the PSA.

Just wondering. I know of two brothers installing alarms who both have records. would be good to know if these were revoked by PSA.

Thanks for the info.

altor

farrell2121 wrote: »

Just wondering. I know of two brothers installing alarms who both have records. would be good to know if these were revoked by PSA.

Thanks for the info.

It would depend on what they did too. A minor offence would not prevent you getting a license.

KoolKid

Obviousally do not post too much detail up here. But minor offences going back to their youth would not affect their eligibility to hold a licence.

farrell2121

Thanks lads. You have both been really informative. Accurate information is always helpfully.!!!!

altor

farrell2121 wrote: »

Thanks lads. You have both been really informative. Accurate information is always helpfully.!!!!

If you did want to find out then ring or contact the PSA direct.
Here is a link to do so.

farrell2121

Thanks will do.

Evolution1

Surely EVERYONE applying for a PSA licence is Garda vetted . so any crime committed by these " brothers " was sorted out and mustn't have been serious .
I won't lose sleep over it .... ðŸ˜႒

KoolKid

Garda vetting only came in with the PSA. If these guys were in business prior to that there would be no need anyway.
Also there is issues with the ability to check records of non nationals or foreign records of people who may have worked abroad for long periods of time.

altor

Evolution1 wrote: »

Surely EVERYONE applying for a PSA licence is Garda vetted .

That is correct, Garda vetting happens every time the licence is renewed also.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

That is correct, Garda vetting happens every time the licence is renewed also.

Have never been asked for fresh checks on licence renewal.
Not unless staff has changed.