A Second Revivial of the Irish Language.

An Coilean

Over a century has now passed since the Gaelic Revival, its part of the History books and given its aims, can only be said to have failed.

However even though the Revival failed, the language did not die out, its still with us and not likely to die any time soon.

The thing that has struck me is the growth of Irish language activism over the last 30 years.
There is the growth of the Gaelscoil movement in every corner of the country, the growth of youth involvment over the last decade at Third level and more recently at Second Level.

Small things like the opening of a Culturlann in Belfast and Derry, the starting of an Irish Language GAA club in Dublin and many other such initatives.
The number of families raising their children through Irish, while still relativly small has grown substantially over recent decades.

This all speaks of a group that seems to be growing in confidence and gaining momentum.

Its early days, but do you think it is time to talk of a second revival of the Irish Language?


I would love to hear your opinions on this.

P. Breathnach

It's best not to muddy the waters: the first revival is still a work in progress.

An Coilean

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's best not to muddy the waters: the first revival is still a work in progress.

I can understand the sentemiant, but I don't see it that way, there was a huge amount of activity in the revival movement from the late 1800's up until the mid thirties, after which the movement went into decline, by the late 60's there was very little left of it. Sure there was some activity around Dublin, but that was about the long and short of it, it could not have been described as widespread at that stage. Some of the same organisations are still around, but the situation the Irish Language finds its self in today is unrecognisable from where it was 40 years ago.
Foras na Gaeilge, TG4, RnaG, Gaelscoileanna, The Culturlann's in the north, the OLA, and many other smaller but not insignificant developments.
There is hardily a Large town in Ireland that dose not have an Irish Language organisation working in it.

Of course you can see this as a continuation of the same movement, and it is, But as far as I can see there has been a significant revival within that movement.

somairle

An Coilean wrote: »

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's best not to muddy the waters: the first revival is still a work in progress.

I can understand the sentemiant, but I don't see it that way, there was a huge amount of activity in the revival movement from the late 1800's up until the mid thirties, after which the movement went into decline, by the late 60's there was very little left of it. Sure there was some activity around Dublin, but that was about the long and short of it, it could not have been described as widespread at that stage. Some of the same organisations are still around, but the situation the Irish Language finds its self in today is unrecognisable from where it was 40 years ago.
Foras na Gaeilge, TG4, RnaG, Gaelscoileanna, The Culturlann's in the north, the OLA, and many other smaller but not insignificant developments.
There is hardily a Large town in Ireland that dose not have an Irish Language organisation working in it.

Of course you can see this as a continuation of the same movement, and it is, But as far as I can see there has been a significant revival within that movement.

I think we can start talking about the 2nd revival, a movement from the roots up like you say with gaeilscoileanna, organisations and the general attitudes to Irish have changed quite rapidly over the last 15 years and this comes against a back drop of the failed Gaelic revival which was largely abandoned by the 70s.

The key difference is this is mostly bottom up rather than top down. I'm not sure how effective it will be though, the Gaeltachts are shrinking and it's unlikely it will remain as a true community language in 100 years, the question for me is will all these pockets of Gaelscoil goers be enough to sustain Irish, already you have thousands of people attending Gaeilscoileanna but English remains their first language in virtually all cases outside the Gaeltacht, so perhaps Irish will just become a 2nd language of a sizeable minority rather then the first language of anyone. We will see, More needs to be done on the development of 2nd level education through Irish, and opportunities to use it outside school to sustain a community of 2nd language users.

666irishguy

I think they would be flogging a dead horse. Irish is for the majority of people, nothing more than an annoying second language that they had to study in school. I think the idea of reviving it is admirable in a way, but for the most part is just a nationalist hangover from the days of pre-independence. It has no usefulness outside of Ireland and in this world of globalization where English is one of the most taught languages on the planet, I fear it is in terminal decline. Even if we could somehow get it to be the first language again, we would be shooting ourselves in the foot for the sake of national pride because of the aforementioned demand for English. The thing I have always felt put the death-nail in it was compulsory learning. If it was voluntary with a higher reward for taking up the subject, you would have a smaller but more proficient pool of speakers and I think having people outside the Gaeltachts who are passionate about the language and can actually fluently speak it, instead of string together a few basic words is what would really help keep the language alive.

somairle

666irishguy wrote: »

I think they would be flogging a dead horse. Irish is for the majority of people, nothing more than an annoying second language that they had to study in school. I think the idea of reviving it is admirable in a way, but for the most part is just a nationalist hangover from the days of pre-independence. It has no usefulness outside of Ireland and in this world of globalization where English is one of the most taught languages on the planet, I fear it is in terminal decline. Even if we could somehow get it to be the first language again, we would be shooting ourselves in the foot for the sake of national pride because of the aforementioned demand for English. The thing I have always felt put the death-nail in it was compulsory learning. If it was voluntary with a higher reward for taking up the subject, you would have a smaller but more proficient pool of speakers and I think having people outside the Gaeltachts who are passionate about the language and can actually fluently speak it, instead of string together a few basic words is what would really help keep the language alive.

I'm not sure compulsion put the nail in the coffin, it was already 6 feet under encased in concrete by the early 1900s, there was no realistic way back for Irish post-famine. I totally agree on the point about Irish should be optional, it would be much more desirable to have people learning it with other people who want to and creating a smaller pool of higher level speakers rather than millions who even if they do has more than a cúpla focal couldn't care less to use it, and not only that but compulsion is creating some people who actively hate the language!

I think your right about the dead horse, English is *the* language to have, our people knew it pre independence and they voted with their mouths following independence. Irish will never be the national language of Ireland again. The Gaelic revival pre and post independence was nationalistic, a way of separating us from the British and creating a stronger independent identity to achieve the ultimate goal of freedom. On the one hand it was noble of them to try and salvage a culture long disappearing but on the other it ignored other elements of Irish identity which is a patchwork.

It is in terminal decline as a first language, I've quoted before but there are only 17000 people now living in Gaeltacht areas where Irish is the overwhelming first language if the community - shops, business, school, social etc and even in the strongest areas the data shows the language is weakening amount the younger people which indicates they are using much more and have more contact with English.

In my view it will survive as a less-rich second language which is a shame in many ways but on a positive note 2nd language speakers of Irish are growing so at least it will survive one way or another, it's on those speakers to decide where they will use it; will they continue using it outside the school gates and Irish language events, or will begin using naturally in their work & social lives etc?

daithicarr

I think there is a second revival afoot and one which has largely dropped the baggage of nationalism , it's more driven by people with a love or interest in the language.

One of positive effects of having so many new people living here is the realization that children can be brought up perfectly fluent in a number of languages and multilingualism is shown to be a benefit rather than drawback .

There is a upsurge in interest in the language and a deeper understanding of what factors influence it's decline as a community language and hinder people's acquisition of it as a second language.

There are efforts afoot to address these issues , whether we have the resources or enough will to implement time will tell. The poor experiance of learning it in school has put many off it , including myself who until well in to my adult life was quite opposed to Irish .

mattmacg

I don't know if there is a 2nd revival. But there is more interest in the language from Irish and non Irish people. English will always be the first language of the country and English is the language of the world at the moment.

But I do agree that peoples attitude to the language has changed over the last 15 to 20 years. A lot of the attitude towards Irish was a hangover from the famine. People viscerally didn't like the language because it was associated with poverty.

I am looking into setting up a social enterprise to help people speak Irish.
If anyone is interested I would love to meet for a coffee.
I live in Dublin. I speak reasonable Irish but am writing this in English because its easier.

knoxwilliam

i wonder how quick the dutch and scandinavians were to grab their ankles when big bad bearla rode into town on tv and radio waves. i dont hear too much about the death of dutch in the news.

i daresay picking up english is one thing, but dropping your own lingo is quite another step altogether. why are the atlantic fringe "modern celts" so eager to drop what's theirs just to pick up english?

maybe a kind of lack of self-respect?

tig liom an teachtaireacht seo a chur i ngaelige. thread bearla no gaelige ata ann?

knoxwilliam

knoxwilliam wrote: »

i wonder how quick the dutch and scandinavians were to grab their ankles when big bad bearla rode into town on tv and radio waves. i dont hear too much about the death of dutch in the news.

i daresay picking up english is one thing, but dropping your own lingo is quite another step altogether. why are the atlantic fringe "modern celts" so eager to drop what's theirs just to pick up english?

It has a lot to do with the fact that Irish speakers have become marginalised since the middle of the 19th century, generations of people have had the "Irish is useless" theme hammered into them by parents & friends, that it is a logical step to give up on it.

With over 98% of the population speaking English almost all the time, there’s little incentive for the remaining Irish speakers to initiate conversations in Irish.

This is totally different to the situation in the Nederlands, Iceland & other countries that are essentially bi-lingual with a large percentage of the population being fluent in at least one other language. They always speak their own language when they talk amongst themselves because they are all fluent in their native language, something that has changed in Ireland where for the vast majority, English is the native language.

knoxwilliam

i understand this on an individual level. but as a group, how did the irish allow this to happen? ok, irish was (and even with the tv service) still is, like it or lump it, still thought of as backward or something only people from the countryside would speak. what puzzles me is how on the macro level, the irish would allow this to happen to their language.

even now, these organisations who are supposed to support the language are unwittingly pushing it away - example gaillimh le gaeilge - and/or shopkeepers and the like tend to use old-fashioned script for irish as if it was not a modern or living language.

i would ban anything old-fashioned related to the language to get rid of these notions that it's old fashioned. this would be sean no/s, old style scripts and so on. somehow if you speak irish you have to like traditional (=old fashioned) music but if you want something edgy or funny you're going to get sth international or the rubberbandits - in english. the welsh are "lucky" that the langiuage isnt seen as old fashioned. having said that, the rubberbandits are making fun of their strong regional accent (of course they dont normally speak with such a heavy accent). but maybe they are saying you can have a strong limerick accent and still listen to techno etc.

ppl could, i suppose, in iceland, start giving up on icelandic because only 200,000 ppl speak it - less than half the number of welsh speakers. but i dont hear about the icelanders giving up their lingo for english. as a group there is a different dynamic at play.

knoxwilliam

somairle wrote: »

In my view it will survive as a less-rich second language which is a shame in many ways but on a positive note 2nd language speakers of Irish are growing so at least it will survive one way or another,

true, but this crowd i would call the "gaeilgeoiri" / "an labhraionn tu gaeilge?" (these are fake irish expressions which totally ignore what's true irish speech) crowd, while real irish speakers i would call the "lucht na gaeilge" / "bhfuil gaeilge agatsa?" crowd

i think it isnt worth speaking this type of fake irish. and learners and even fluent learners (even on tv) cant pronounce the R, replacing it with the alveolar approximant.

Insect Overlord

knoxwilliam wrote: »

i would ban anything old-fashioned related to the language to get rid of these notions that it's old fashioned. this would be sean no/s, old style scripts and so on.

Yeah, good luck with that...

knoxwilliam wrote: »

somehow if you speak irish you have to like traditional (=old fashioned) music but if you want something edgy or funny you're going to get sth international or the rubberbandits - in english. the welsh are "lucky" that the langiuage isnt seen as old fashioned. having said that, the rubberbandits are making fun of their strong regional accent (of course they dont normally speak with such a heavy accent). but maybe they are saying you can have a strong limerick accent and still listen to techno etc.

You picked an awful example there. The Rubberbandits had two of the best-selling downloaded songs of 2011. One was "Horse Outside". The other was "Róisín, Ba Mhaith Liom Bruíon Le D'Athair". At least one of the lads has a very solid backing in the language.

knoxwilliam

no, i saw that video, the irish version. i think the english version is slicker.

he does have decent irish, the fatter one who sang that song.

i mean im glad they did a song in irish. but i dont know why you say i picked a bad example.

most of their stuff is in english. the gaelic version came later for seachtain na gaeilge i think it was.

what i mean is this:

when you get groups like the rubberbandits, who i think are great btw, doing songs in irish only or irish mainly, then it's a different situation.

i just think they are a testament to modern ireland, where english reigns supreme.

i think their best songs are up da ra and i like to shift girls.

the english version of i wanna fight you father is slicker. the rirish version came later and is like a black and white photocpy.

why cant we say "stanley knife" in irish ? :-)

knoxwilliam

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Yeah, good luck with that...

WOULD ban, not WILL. no luck necessary.

P. Breathnach

knoxwilliam wrote: »

... i would ban anything old-fashioned related to the language to get rid of these notions that it's old fashioned. this would be sean no/s, old style scripts and so on. somehow if you speak irish you have to like traditional (=old fashioned) music ...

So I am not to be allowed enjoy sean nós singing? I am a threat to the Irish language because I like to hear Róisín Elsafty sing?

knoxwilliam

Yes. :-)

The point was, and still is, that it would change things for the better to give the language a modern face, meaning not old-fashioned, not symbolic, not traditional, and not decorative. Do the sean-nos thing, but what about the hipsters? So in your mind, the hipsters "can all go and speak English?" Sorry to paraphrase, but is that the idea?

The point isn't Elsafty. It's the image of the language. It's about attracting and keeping the potential hundreds of thousands of people who have or would have a use for the language. Image is crucial - BUT there has to be something real behind that image too.

The funny thing is that I feel strange leaving this kind of message because, well, it's all rather obvious.

I'm trying to speak up for these hundreds of thousands who have abandoned the language. There is something taboo about what I'm saying, isn't there?

knoxwilliam

An Coilean wrote: »

Over a century has now passed since the Gaelic Revival, its part of the History books and given its aims, can only be said to have failed.

However even though the Revival failed, the language did not die out, its still with us and not likely to die any time soon.

The thing that has struck me is the growth of Irish language activism over the last 30 years.
There is the growth of the Gaelscoil movement in every corner of the country, the growth of youth involvment over the last decade at Third level and more recently at Second Level.

Small things like the opening of a Culturlann in Belfast and Derry, the starting of an Irish Language GAA club in Dublin and many other such initatives.
The number of families raising their children through Irish, while still relativly small has grown substantially over recent decades.

This all speaks of a group that seems to be growing in confidence and gaining momentum.

Its early days, but do you think it is time to talk of a second revival of the Irish Language?


I would love to hear your opinions on this.

First of all, yes. The first revival failed massively (ahem, or for some mysterious reason, it hasn't taken off yet). We can't deny that. TV is so important though. I hope this is changing things, especially the image of the language.

I guess these revivals will just come and go, like the seasons, the tides, and the celtic tigers.

Insect Overlord

knoxwilliam wrote: »

true, but this crowd i would call the "gaeilgeoiri" / "an labhraionn tu gaeilge?" (these are fake irish expressions which totally ignore what's true irish speech) crowd, while real irish speakers i would call the "lucht na gaeilge" / "bhfuil gaeilge agatsa?" crowd

i think it isnt worth speaking this type of fake irish. and learners and even fluent learners (even on tv) cant pronounce the R, replacing it with the alveolar approximant.

You're just contradicting yourself now.

knoxwilliam wrote: »

The point was, and still is, that it would change things for the better to give the language a modern face, meaning not old-fashioned, not symbolic, not traditional, and not decorative. Do the sean-nos thing, but what about the hipsters?

What do you want? The traditional Irish of the Gaeltacht, but without the tradition?

knoxwilliam

Insect Overlord wrote: »

You're just contradicting yourself now.

What do you want? The traditional Irish of the Gaeltacht, but without the tradition?

Zero contradiction. Living REAL Irish now and forward-looking. Gaeltacht Irish is alive. It's real. It's not "traditional".

If you want the tradition, great. But don't hijack a whole language with "tradition".

forthiarna na bhfeithidí? insect overlord? wtf?

P. Breathnach

knoxwilliam wrote: »

Yes. :-)

The point was, and still is, that it would change things for the better to give the language a modern face, meaning not old-fashioned, not symbolic, not traditional, and not decorative. Do the sean-nos thing, but what about the hipsters? So in your mind, the hipsters "can all go and speak English?" Sorry to paraphrase, but is that the idea?

Don't try to put words in my mouth, and then try to use your invention as a way to discredit what I say. That is very dishonourable.

The point isn't Elsafty. It's the image of the language. It's about attracting and keeping the potential hundreds of thousands of people who have or would have a use for the language. Image is crucial - BUT there has to be something real behind that image too.

Sean nós song is authentic, and appeals greatly to me. I have no time for the idea that it should be somehow excised from our cultural heritage as a cheap marketing gimmick to sell the language to people who do not use it. I don't force my musical preferences on others (although I sometimes invite people to listen to it).

The funny thing is that I feel strange leaving this kind of message because, well, it's all rather obvious.

I'm trying to speak up for these hundreds of thousands who have abandoned the language. There is something taboo about what I'm saying, isn't there?

So you want to re-manufacture Irish, and to hell with those of us who don't go for the new model.

knoxwilliam

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't try to put words in my mouth, and then try to use your invention as a way to discredit what I say. That is very dishonourable.

Sean nós song is authentic, and appeals greatly to me. I have no time for the idea that it should be somehow excised from our cultural heritage as a cheap marketing gimmick to sell the language to people who do not use it. I don't force my musical preferences on others (although I sometimes invite people to listen to it).

So you want to re-manufacture Irish, and to hell with those of us who don't go for the new model.

OK, good argument. To hell with nobody. Sean-nos for all who are interested in it. And yes, I totally agree that no gimmicks at all be allowed. Excise nothing from the heritage. Re-package nothing. But I still stand against the idea that Irish be considered or promoted as something old or too connected to the past.

Re-manufacture irish - never should this be allowed. The new orthography went far enough. Maybe a few mistakes here and there? (I dont agree with conveniently getting rid of the genitive case of ra/.

example comhra/

comhradh / genitive comhraidh

this genitive form was basically just artificially wiped out by orthographical change. That was re-manufacturing and i dont approve.

No new model of anything. Just real Irish naturally being used in modern situations without too much traditional "baggage". I'm not saying sean nos is bad but it's obvious most young ppl wouldn't go for it.

Are you saying my point of view isnt correct?

knoxwilliam

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So you want to re-manufacture Irish, and to hell with those of us who don't go for the new model.

Don't try to put words in my mouth, and then try to use your invention as a way to discredit what I say. That is very dishonourable.

johnolocher

While I couldn't agree with most of knoxwilliam's posts I think when I think about it there is a point there regarding Irish. Branding and perception is important to a minority language if the users want it to grow, I think Irish especially in the cities has an image of being rural and being a part of traditional Irish culture including dance, Sean nos and trad music, it's a loose package though obviously not mutually exclusive look at the Oireachtas etc there is big connection. You contrast this with the mainstream culture in Ireland which is watching Corronation Street, Manchester United & listening to Jay-Z you can see how easy it can be to seem rural and old fashioned in the eyes of the average, say Dublin teenager. There are always exceptions and there is an urban (and rural) community using Irish without partaking in other aspects of traditional culture and thus you can argue there is a modern edge to it, but what you can't argue is that it's mainstream.

For Irish to grow you need to create people who want to learn and families who want to raise Irish speakers, like it or not there is a PR issue to appeal to these people you have persuade them it is in their interests and that there is something to gain whether that's cultural weight or whether that's showing them Irish can be an is a modern fashionable asset for a Dublin hipster, whatever it may be a big % of Dublin teenagers I know view it as a rural boring langauge that has no relevance to their lives. If you want it to grow you have to create relevance.

Wilberto

I feel there is a mechanism to revive the Irish Language.

The vast majority of my friends (college graduates) would love to be fluent in Irish, and in my opinion, that sentiment is echoed in a lot of young people today. But, they we just need a 'kick up the arse'/incentive in order to take up the language.

This is ideal though because these are the exact people that you want to target. College grads, just finished college, where they were either studying or working in the evenings, now have that extra bit of time to take up Irish courses, where the importance of the language is also taught by enthusiastic lecturers with a passion for the language, should incentives be offered.

(Obviously, it's a bit disheartening that incentives should be offered in order to get people to learn their native tongue but that's just the way it is. You need to overcome one of the basic human characteristics that is inertia.)

This way, when the young people inevitably have kids, they can then use Irish before they reach school going age when, eventually, a 'blanket Gaelscoil' approach (for lack of a better term) will be brought in so all primary schools will be taught through the medium of Irish.

johnolocher

Wilberto wrote: »

I feel there is a mechanism to revive the Irish Language.

The vast majority of my friends (college graduates) would love to be fluent in Irish, and in my opinion, that sentiment is echoed in a lot of young people today. But, they we just need a 'kick up the arse'/incentive in order to take up the language.

This is ideal though because these are the exact people that you want to target. College grads, just finished college, where they were either studying or working in the evenings, now have that extra bit of time to take up Irish courses, where the importance of the language is also taught by enthusiastic lecturers with a passion for the language, should incentives be offered.

(Obviously, it's a bit disheartening that incentives should be offered in order to get people to learn their native tongue but that's just the way it is. You need to overcome one of the basic human characteristics that is inertia.)

This way, when the young people inevitably have kids, they can then use Irish before they reach school going age when, eventually, a 'blanket Gaelscoil' approach (for lack of a better term) will be brought in so all primary schools will be taught through the medium of Irish.

Sounds nice but your ignoring that fact that passive positivity towards the language won't result in college grads spending the thousands of hours it takes to learn a language.

Not a chance, not even by paying people. There needs to be lots of jobs in lot of sectors (not just teaching and translating) available trough Irish for the majority to decide to learn Irish as adults. There needs to genuine economic opportunities otherwise good will towards Irish will remain just that, good will.

Iwasfrozen

Wilberto wrote: »

I feel there is a mechanism to revive the Irish Language.

The vast majority of my friends (college graduates) would love to be fluent in Irish, and in my opinion, that sentiment is echoed in a lot of young people today. But, they we just need a 'kick up the arse'/incentive in order to take up the language.

This is ideal though because these are the exact people that you want to target. College grads, just finished college, where they were either studying or working in the evenings, now have that extra bit of time to take up Irish courses, where the importance of the language is also taught by enthusiastic lecturers with a passion for the language, should incentives be offered.

(Obviously, it's a bit disheartening that incentives should be offered in order to get people to learn their native tongue but that's just the way it is. You need to overcome one of the basic human characteristics that is inertia.)

This way, when the young people inevitably have kids, they can then use Irish before they reach school going age when, eventually, a 'blanket Gaelscoil' approach (for lack of a better term) will be brought in so all primary schools will be taught through the medium of Irish.

Problem is, incentives to speak Irish = discrimination by those who don't speak it and further bad feelings.

deirdremf

johnolocher wrote: »

Sounds nice but your ignoring that fact that passive positivity towards the language won't result in college grads spending the thousands of hours it takes to learn a language.

Not a chance, not even by paying people. There needs to be lots of jobs in lot of sectors (not just teaching and translating) available trough Irish for the majority to decide to learn Irish as adults. There needs to genuine economic opportunities otherwise good will towards Irish will remain just that, good will.

Yeah, but you are forgetting that they have already spent a great many hours learning Irish. Believe it or not, something went in during those many hours - basic grammatical structures and vocabulary.
They only need to put that in order and start using it.

To give you an idea, a friend who teaches classes to adults on both sides of the border told me that classes in the six counties take three years to reach basic fluency, while classes in the 26 counties do it in 3 to 6 WEEKS.

While I appreciate that this is a terrible indictment of our educational system (that what remains after 13 or 14 years of Irish can be equaled in three years of evening classes), the point I am making here is that the average person who has gone through the 26 county educational system is only 3 to 6 weeks away from basic fluency. They are MUCH closer than is generally understood to speaking the language.

Sir_Oracle

I have a few thoughts on this.

In my opinion, the focus for the revival of irish needs to be on making it the language of the educated urban population rather than the rural population. There's no point, for example, in trying to get kids in Dublin to learn a language that they see as only being spoken by old people in the middle of nowhere.

The plan to designate areas like Clondalkin as gaeltachts is a step in the right direction. Rather than just preserving the traditional gaeltacht areas, we need to focus on creating more nua-gaeltachta. The gaelscoil movement is key to this, as it creates a core of people who are fluent in the language, and will allow them to use it in daily life. To this effect, nua-gaeltacht areas need to have things like shops, pubs, cafes etc where irish is/can be spoken. The Clondalkin one is perfect, as its basically a potential Gaeltacht in the capital, which would do a lot to promote it there.

There's actually an Irish café run by Gael Linn here in cork, but it's terrible. They don't seem to understand what makes a cafe worth going to- if it was actually nice, people would be much more inclined to go there, i.e. if it was a normal cafe that just happened to be irish speaking.

Also, there needs to be an increase in Irish media. Why do we have no broadsheet newspaper as Gaeilge, i.e. like an irish version of the Irish Times that deals with local, national and international affairs in a professional way rather than papers like Foinse, which tend to deal with minor gaeltacht news that holds little interest for the rest of the country. There also needs to be a second national radio in Irish, but aimed at a younger audience, like 2FM but in Irish.

I think it would also be a massive boost if ALL national primary schools became gaelscoileanna. It wouldn't be that hard- primary teachers already have irish as part of their training, it would just be a case of increasing the amount of irish they learn so that they could teach through it. This would create a huge increase in the amount of people able to speak Irish fluently. According to wikipedia, there is a more minor version of this underway already.

I think it's very possible to revive Irish as the national language. The idea that it's in terminal decline lacks ambition in my opinion. We should aim to become like the Dutch, i.e. that we all CAN speak english, but speak our own language amongst ourselves, and english to foreigners, so we get the best of both worlds. We're never going to make Irish a business language, but there's no reason at all that we can't make it the national lingua franca while keeping english as our business language.

The lads in the North seem to be making a much better fist of it than us, as well. Belfast has a Gaeltacht Quarter, as does Derry (there was one proposed for dublin but it looks like its been indefinitely shelved). I think there's actually a proper Gaeltacht planned for Derry, as well. They also have Raidió Fáilte, which plays some great tunes, and Nuacht 24, an online (and printed, I think) newspaper in irish. They're doing it right, we need to step it up big time.

Sorry for the rambling post. I think those ideas are fairly elementary stuff, I'm amazed things like the newspaper haven't happened yet. The government lack ambition when it comes to the irish language. In my opinion if we really put in the effort we can make something of it

An Coilean

Sir_Oracle wrote: »

]In my opinion, the focus for the revival of irish needs to be on making it the language of the educated urban population rather than the rural population. There's no point, for example, in trying to get kids in Dublin to learn a language that they see as only being spoken by old people in the middle of nowhere.

While the language should be promoted more effectivly in Urban centres, the traditional Gaeltacht should not be abandoned, loosing Irish as a comunity language in these areas will have a serious negative effect on the future of the language.
In any case, there is no reason that it has to be one or the other.

The plan to designate areas like Clondalkin as gaeltachts is a step in the right direction. Rather than just preserving the traditional gaeltacht areas, we need to focus on creating more nua-gaeltachta. The gaelscoil movement is key to this, as it creates a core of people who are fluent in the language, and will allow them to use it in daily life. To this effect, nua-gaeltacht areas need to have things like shops, pubs, cafes etc where irish is/can be spoken. The Clondalkin one is perfect, as its basically a potential Gaeltacht in the capital, which would do a lot to promote it there.

There is no such plan, what has been mentioned is that under the new Gaeltacht Act 2012, official recognition will be given to Irish speaking networks outside the official Gaeltacht, while the new act also makes it possible in theory for an area like clondalkin to become a Gaeltacht, the criteria are such that it will be a long long time if ever.

Also, there needs to be an increase in Irish media. Why do we have no broadsheet newspaper as Gaeilge, i.e. like an irish version of the Irish Times that deals with local, national and international affairs in a professional way rather than papers like Foinse, which tend to deal with minor gaeltacht news that holds little interest for the rest of the country. There also needs to be a second national radio in Irish, but aimed at a younger audience, like 2FM but in Irish.

In relation to the Broadsheet, who is going to pay for it? Foras na Gaeilge funded a much more modest newspaper up until recently but cancled it due to it not being a viable enterprise. The readership is not there to support a full blooded broadsheet like the Times.
As for the second national Irish language Raidio Station, I would agree, but it is not likely to recieve much official support currently, however have a look at Raidio na Life if you are in Dublin (or online if not) Or Raidio Rí Rá for that matter, also online.

I think it would also be a massive boost if ALL national primary schools became gaelscoileanna. It wouldn't be that hard- primary teachers already have irish as part of their training, it would just be a case of increasing the amount of irish they learn so that they could teach through it. This would create a huge increase in the amount of people able to speak Irish fluently. According to wikipedia, there is a more minor version of this underway already.

There are simply not enough primary school teachers with sufficient Irish to do that. Yes they have to have Irish, but there is a significant difference between the level of Irish you need to teach Irish in a primary school and the Irish you need to be able to teach all subjects through Irish at primary school. The immersion modle used in Gaelscoileanna means you need fluent Irish to be able to function in the school as a teacher.
Making all primary schools into Irish medium schools is also likely to create considrable opposition from those who will see it as Irish beinf forced on them and their children.
A better strategy would be to target the expansion of Irish medium education from its current 6% or so to around 20-25% over the next 20 years. This would allow for the pool of teachers with sufficient Irish to grow and alos sidestep opposition as parents would still have the option of sending their kids to an English medium school.

Sorry for the rambling post. I think those ideas are fairly elementary stuff, I'm amazed things like the newspaper haven't happened yet. The government lack ambition when it comes to the irish language. In my opinion if we really put in the effort we can make something of it

The newspaper thing has been a recuring problem for the Irish language, goverment decides to fund a newspaper, it fails to attract a wide readership, government cuts funding, few years later a new newspaper appears and repeat.
You could say that each attempt has had its faults and not been right to attract a readership, but the reality is that there are not enough fluent Irish speakers to support a good professional newspaper. While I was sad to see Gaelscéal go, I think online is going to have to be the future of Irish language print media. What we need to do is spin it into 'we're ahead of the curve' rather than 'we cant support a print newspaper'.

As for the Government, yes they certainly do lack any ambition twords the Irish language and need to be pushed and pushed hard to make any concession to it.

Sir_Oracle

An Coilean wrote: »

While the language should be promoted more effectivly in Urban centres, the traditional Gaeltacht should not be abandoned, loosing Irish as a comunity language in these areas will have a serious negative effect on the future of the language.
In any case, there is no reason that it has to be one or the other.

I agree, I'm not suggesting that the Gaeltacht areas should be abandoned, all I'm saying is that the focus should be taken off them as the ONLY irish-speaking areas in the country.

An Coilean wrote: »

There is no such plan, what has been mentioned is that under the new Gaeltacht Act 2012, official recognition will be given to Irish speaking networks outside the official Gaeltacht, while the new act also makes it possible in theory for an area like clondalkin to become a Gaeltacht, the criteria are such that it will be a long long time if ever.

Maybe 'plan' wasn't the right word, but either way it seems to me to be a step in the right area. When it was suggested that it would be possible, there were a lot of voices from Clondalkin suggesting they'd be very much in favour of it. I seem to remember hearing that there's going to be a good bit of housing for irish-speakers put up in Ballymun as well in effort to turn that into a gaeltacht area (admittedly, I'm not sure how successful that would be).

While it's not set in stone yet, I think its a very positive development, and one that should be encouraged.

An Coilean wrote: »

In relation to the Broadsheet, who is going to pay for it? Foras na Gaeilge funded a much more modest newspaper up until recently but cancled it due to it not being a viable enterprise. The readership is not there to support a full blooded broadsheet like the Times.
As for the second national Irish language Raidio Station, I would agree, but it is not likely to recieve much official support currently, however have a look at Raidio na Life if you are in Dublin (or online if not) Or Raidio Rí Rá for that matter, also online.

Fair enough, if its not financially viable then it can't really work. Perhaps an online newspaper or something, then? My point is more that there's little enough in the way of high-quality journalism in Irish, and that putting some in place might be another step towards 'normalising' the use of the language. However, if it simply won't sell, then there's not much to be done. All the same, I think an online one (thus being free) would be a good idea, but then again there is the issue of who is to fund it.

An Coilean wrote: »

There are simply not enough primary school teachers with sufficient Irish to do that. Yes they have to have Irish, but there is a significant difference between the level of Irish you need to teach Irish in a primary school and the Irish you need to be able to teach all subjects through Irish at primary school. The immersion modle used in Gaelscoileanna means you need fluent Irish to be able to function in the school as a teacher.
Making all primary schools into Irish medium schools is also likely to create considrable opposition from those who will see it as Irish beinf forced on them and their children.
A better strategy would be to target the expansion of Irish medium education from its current 6% or so to around 20-25% over the next 20 years. This would allow for the pool of teachers with sufficient Irish to grow and alos sidestep opposition as parents would still have the option of sending their kids to an English medium school.

I realise that the teachers simply aren't able to do it now, what I'm suggesting is that some sort of irish immersion training becomes part of studying to be a primary teacher. It would obviously have to be phased into schools as well, not just at once.

I take your point about the opposition, though. As it happens, there's something quoted on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelscoil#Strait.C3.A9is_20_Bliain_-_20_Year_Strategy_for_the_Irish_Language) (the source link is now inactive, unfortunately)from the 20-year Strategy for Irish which suggests doing what you suggested, i.e. slowly increasing irish-medium education by making, for example, maths taught through irish etc. Maybe you're right, that might be more feasible, as given what happened with the students refusing to speak irish in Dingle, opposition can't be ignored

An Coilean

Sir_Oracle wrote: »

Maybe 'plan' wasn't the right word, but either way it seems to me to be a step in the right area. When it was suggested that it would be possible, there were a lot of voices from Clondalkin suggesting they'd be very much in favour of it. I seem to remember hearing that there's going to be a good bit of housing for irish-speakers put up in Ballymun as well in effort to turn that into a gaeltacht area (admittedly, I'm not sure how successful that would be).

Indeed, as it happens the Ballymun housing thing is actually just a group of people who decided to do it themselves, much like the shaws road gaeltacht in Belfast
Hard to know how it will turn out, but ballymun is a fairly good place to do it, there are more Irish speakers around that place than Connemara.

Fair enough, if its not financially viable then it can't really work. Perhaps an online newspaper or something, then? My point is more that there's little enough in the way of high-quality journalism in Irish, and that putting some in place might be another step towards 'normalising' the use of the language. However, if it simply won't sell, then there's not much to be done. All the same, I think an online one (thus being free) would be a good idea, but then again there is the issue of who is to fund it.

Foras na Gaeilge can fund it, they were happy enough to pay 400,000 a year for a print newspaper, if they pay the same to an online one you could really have something as the cost of actually printing the thing would not be there.

Maybe you're right, that might be more feasible, as given what happened with the students refusing to speak irish in Dingle, opposition can't be ignored

Well actually that was only a handfull of students several of which were former students.
It came about because the Irish medium school was merged with an English medium school and it was decided to make the whole thing an Irish medium school.

But yes, better to aim for increasing the % of fully Irish medium schools while still allowing parents the option of an English medium school if they want than trying to force Irish medium on everyone.

As for teacher training, I would say it would be better to leave the current system in place and open a new primary school course totally through Irish for those looking to teach in the Gaelscoil sector. It has to be recognised that quite a lot of those who want to be primary school teachers have very little interest in Irish.
Doint the Irish language course would be an advantage to those students who have an interest in Irish as it would allow them to teach in English and Irish medium schools, while those going through an English medium course would generally be limited to English medium schools.

Sir_Oracle

An Coilean wrote: »

Indeed, as it happens the Ballymun housing thing is actually just a group of people who decided to do it themselves, much like the shaws road gaeltacht in Belfast
Hard to know how it will turn out, but ballymun is a fairly good place to do it, there are more Irish speakers around that place than Connemara.

How are there so many in Ballymun? Are there gaelscoileanna up there or something?

It'd be a great boost to the area if they managed to turn it into a gaeltacht disctrict. My only concern would be that while there may be irish speakers living there already, I can't see a lot of people opting to move there with the reputation the area has (e.g. if you were told there were houses going in Ballymun, would you move there?)

An Coilean wrote: »

Foras na Gaeilge can fund it, they were happy enough to pay 400,000 a year for a print newspaper, if they pay the same to an online one you could really have something as the cost of actually printing the thing would not be there.

Yeah, that could work. The one up in the north, Nuacht 24, is basically a version of that already, and it seems to be getting on well, so I see no reason one wouldn't be viable in the Republic.

Actually, I wonder if there's any college in the country offering degrees in Journalism with Irish? If demand for irish media increases, it might be handy to have people trained as journalists who also have fluent irish

An Coilean wrote: »

As for teacher training, I would say it would be better to leave the current system in place and open a new primary school course totally through Irish for those looking to teach in the Gaelscoil sector. It has to be recognised that quite a lot of those who want to be primary school teachers have very little interest in Irish.
Doint the Irish language course would be an advantage to those students who have an interest in Irish as it would allow them to teach in English and Irish medium schools, while those going through an English medium course would generally be limited to English medium schools.

You've hit the nail on the head there, that's a good idea! It'd make it actually more attractive to do the Irish course; then, if there's more teachers who've done the course than there are places in gaelscoileanna, chances are more gaelscoileanna will open to accomodate it, which would be a big help.

An Coilean

Sir_Oracle wrote: »

How are there so many in Ballymun? Are there gaelscoileanna up there or something?

The Gaelscoil movement pretty much started in Ballymun, there are two Gaelscoils in the area now.

It'd be a great boost to the area if they managed to turn it into a gaeltacht disctrict. My only concern would be that while there may be irish speakers living there already, I can't see a lot of people opting to move there with the reputation the area has (e.g. if you were told there were houses going in Ballymun, would you move there?)

The Irish housing there at the moment is not provided by the council, its a group of people who agreed to start an Irish speaking community and then got a morgatage to build their own house there.

Actually, I wonder if there's any college in the country offering degrees in Journalism with Irish? If demand for irish media increases, it might be handy to have people trained as journalists who also have fluent irish

UL do an Irish and New Media course, not just aimed at journalism, but it is part of the course.

There are other courses that have Irish and Journalism as part of it in other colleges too.

deirdremf

Originally Posted by An Coilean View Post
In relation to the Broadsheet, who is going to pay for it? Foras na Gaeilge funded a much more modest newspaper up until recently but cancled it due to it not being a viable enterprise. The readership is not there to support a full blooded broadsheet like the Times.
As for the second national Irish language Raidio Station, I would agree, but it is not likely to recieve much official support currently, however have a look at Raidio na Life if you are in Dublin (or online if not) Or Raidio Rí Rá for that matter, also online.

Fair enough, if its not financially viable then it can't really work. Perhaps an online newspaper or something, then? My point is more that there's little enough in the way of high-quality journalism in Irish, and that putting some in place might be another step towards 'normalising' the use of the language. However, if it simply won't sell, then there's not much to be done. All the same, I think an online one (thus being free) would be a good idea, but then again there is the issue of who is to fund it.

In my opinion, this is a bit of a red herring. A newspaper is a very expensive business, and they all would go under if they had no advertising.
All of our English-language newspapers are heavily subsidised by the government and its many arms, through the advertising they place in the papers. And even then, I'm not sure how many of them actually turn a profit.
When the government finds that the Irish-language newspapers don't have a large enough readership, what they are really saying is that they don't want to spend their money on that particular project. And this very often happens for political reasons, in the sense that the newspaper might have the wrong political outlook, or whatever, so they close it down. They could pretty much do the same to the Independent or the Times in the morning if they wanted to, by withdrawing their advertising, but those papers are part of the consensus, so they will remain for a while yet.