Empty Seats in Davin Stand

dixiefly

Anybody else see at least 8 seats in a row empty just behind the goal in the Davin stand? Considering the the difficulty supporters all around the country have had getting tickets, the destination of these tickets needs to be checked out.

df1985

someones bus/car always breaks down.....tickets get lost etc etc. will always spot empty seats no matter what the occasion.

doughef

Dont they have to keep a certain amount of seats vacant?

I read before that some people can experience serious vertigo when they find themselves at the very top of the stands and need to be reseated ..

Todays attendance 82,269 ?

dixiefly

df1985 wrote: »

someones bus/car always breaks down.....tickets get lost etc etc. will always spot empty seats no matter what the occasion.

I agree but it is surprising that a number in a row like that are empty.

Tipperary animal lover

Every year hurling or football there's empty seats, people get extra tickets and get stuck with them and its always the shttiy seats.

wonga77

doughef wrote: »

Dont they have to keep a certain amount of seats vacant?

I read before that some people can experience serious vertigo when they find themselves at the very top of the stands and need to be reseated ..

Todays attendance 82,269 ?

Spot on

PWEI

doughef wrote: »

Dont they have to keep a certain amount of seats vacant?

I read before that some people can experience serious vertigo when they find themselves at the very top of the stands and need to be reseated ..

Todays attendance 82,269 ?

A few years ago my brother in law got me a ticket for the All Ireland Hurling final. When I got to my seat there was somebody in it & after closer inspection of our tickets it turned out mine was a ticket for the Football Final & not the hurling.
So I had no where to sit & asked one of the stewards was there any empty seats. He advised me to go down to the desk in the Museum & tell them there that I was suffering from Vertigo. Sure enough they gave me a seat over in the canal end near the corner flag. There was about 8 seats beside me empty, all reserved for anybody suffering from vertigo. The seat wasn't great but I was just glad to have somewhere to sit.

Syferus

How did you get into the game with wrong tickets? And how did you not once notice the tickets were for a completely different match?

Jogathon

PWEI wrote: »

A few years ago my brother in law got me a ticket for the All Ireland Hurling final. When I got to my seat there was somebody in it & after closer inspection of our tickets it turned out mine was a ticket for the Football Final & not the hurling.
So I had no where to sit & asked one of the stewards was there any empty seats. He advised me to go down to the desk in the Museum & tell them there that I was suffering from Vertigo. Sure enough they gave me a seat over in the canal end near the corner flag. There was about 8 seats beside me empty, all reserved for anybody suffering from vertigo. The seat wasn't great but I was just glad to have somewhere to sit.

I don't believe this as all tickets are scanned and your ticket would show up as being incorrect.

On the point of the seats, you will see a block of seats in a row in every game for people who can't handle the height of the upper stands.

Clareman

I've heard of people getting in with wrong tickets before, there's a big human component to getting into games as well as the fact that the tickets are very similar

rossie1977

the tickets should go on general sale to stop all this bs

rossie1977

Syferus wrote: »

How did you get into the game with wrong tickets? And how did you not once notice the tickets were for a completely different match?

Clareman wrote: »

I've heard of people getting in with wrong tickets before, there's a big human component to getting into games as well as the fact that the tickets are very similar

not sure how, at the quarter finals we had tickets for the davin and just coming up from walking along the canal the sky opened so we ran to try and get in the hogan side being it was right beside us, the scanner wouldn't allow us in

Clareman

Scanners were only put in the last couple of years AFAIK.

I also think the GAA's model for distributing of tickets should be applauded, they do their best to ensure that grass root people get a ticket

DazMarz

Clareman wrote: »

I also think the GAA's model for distributing of tickets should be applauded, they do their best to ensure that grass root people get a ticket

Very true. While not perfect, it is the best system there is, to be honest. These tickets for the two All Ireland Senior Finals are arguably the most coveted tickets for any games in the world; someone estimated they could have filled Croke Park three times over if everyone who wanted to go to the game today went. And I'd say last year with the showpiece final of Dublin v. Kerry, I'd say it would have been much more. Or Cork's first Final appearance in years in 2010... There is no doubt that most All Ireland Finals would attract huge crowds, easily around the quarter-million spectators mark, with some of the "bigger" (more hyped-up) finals getting even more than that.

Introducing a system where the tickets are on general sale is just opening the doors to scalpers and gougers. They'll go onto the website, buy up a few tickets and within 2 minutes have them up on eBay or donedeal or something. No way.

While the system the GAA has in place at the moment is far, far from perfect, like most systems that exist, it is still the best way to do it.

KevIRL

rossie1977 wrote: »

the tickets should go on general sale to stop all this bs

Why?

jordainius

rossie1977 wrote: »

the tickets should go on general sale to stop all this bs

Can't see how this would do any good, unless I was a tout, then I'd be delighted.

Dirty Dingus McGee

DazMarz wrote: »

Very true. While not perfect, it is the best system there is, to be honest. These tickets for the two All Ireland Senior Finals are arguably the most coveted tickets for any games in the world; someone estimated they could have filled Croke Park three times over if everyone who wanted to go to the game today went. And I'd say last year with the showpiece final of Dublin v. Kerry, I'd say it would have been much more. Or Cork's first Final appearance in years in 2010... There is no doubt that most All Ireland Finals would attract huge crowds, easily around the quarter-million spectators mark, with some of the "bigger" (more hyped-up) finals getting even more than that.

Introducing a system where the tickets are on general sale is just opening the doors to scalpers and gougers. They'll go onto the website, buy up a few tickets and within 2 minutes have them up on eBay or donedeal or something. No way.

While the system the GAA has in place at the moment is far, far from perfect, like most systems that exist, it is still the best way to do it.

Far too many tickets go to neutral counties.In my opinion each county should be guaranteed a allocation of at least 25,000 and not the 12,500 they currently get.Then 10,000 tickets should go to the counties in the minor final fans and then another 10,000 should go to neutral counties.75% of these neutral tickets should be to counties who haven't had a team in either code in all Ireland final day in the last 10 years.I understand that the tickets that are allocated to neutral counties are used in club draws to raise money which is a good thing but the lack of tickets for supporters of the counties involved in the senior final leads to a lot of undue hassle for genuine supporters.A friend of mine from Donegal only gets his ticket last friday and it was from somebody in Kerry.He's a genuine supporter who goes to a lot of matches but isnt guaranteed a ticket because he doesnt live in Donegal anymore.

KevIRL

The season ticket while not without its flaws has surely negated the issue of genuine fans who go to every game not being able to get final tickets.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

KevIRL wrote: »

The season ticket while not without its flaws has surely negated the issue of genuine fans who go to every game not being able to get final tickets.

The season ticket is a pain imo, it's only good if you like going to games by yourself. Plus, it's far better being in the terraces for matches.

They need to look at alternative ways of rewarding loyalty, showing ticket stubs would be ideal if it allowed you to purchase a ticket for anywhere.

Syferus

THFC wrote: »

The season ticket is a pain imo, it's only good if you like going to games by yourself. Plus, it's far better being in the terraces for matches.

They need to look at alternative ways of rewarding loyalty, showing ticket stubs would be ideal if it allowed you to purchase a ticket for anywhere.

Lord no.

belcampprisoner

Their team lost semi final

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Syferus wrote: »

Lord no.

As a matter of interest, why not? I'd have no problem buying a season ticket if you were allowed to choose where you would be seated/standing. Ticket stubs may not be the answer, but it would be better than the current method imo.

modmuffin

THFC wrote: »

KevIRL wrote: »

The season ticket while not without its flaws has surely negated the issue of genuine fans who go to every game not being able to get final tickets.

The season ticket is a pain imo, it's only good if you like going to games by yourself. Plus, it's far better being in the terraces for matches.

They need to look at alternative ways of rewarding loyalty, showing ticket stubs would be ideal if it allowed you to purchase a ticket for anywhere.

Myself and 4 mates sat together for all games on seperaye season tickets, just rang croker and asked to be grouped together.

The season ticket is perfect for fans that genuinely go to all their counties games.

Presenting stubs etc would be an administrative nightmare

KevIRL

THFC wrote: »

The season ticket is a pain imo, it's only good if you like going to games by yourself. Plus, it's far better being in the terraces for matches.

They need to look at alternative ways of rewarding loyalty, showing ticket stubs would be ideal if it allowed you to purchase a ticket for anywhere.

Very easy to organise tickets together via the season ticket, I do it myself every year. Its now even possible to have different payment cards for tickets linked together. As for the terrace being better than the stand, not a chance, maybe for someone in their early 20's who doesnt really care too much about actually seeing the game and is more interested in the 'craic'.

The season ticket isnt perfect for sure, but really no one can pull the line of 'I go to all the games but cant get a ticket for the final' sob story now that its in place.

edit - also the vast majority of league games do not require tickets and therefore have no stubs

Syferus

THFC wrote: »

As a matter of interest, why not? I'd have no problem buying a season ticket if you were allowed to choose where you would be seated/standing. Ticket stubs may not be the answer, but it would be better than the current method imo.

Have you ever seen Irish weather, per chance? C'mon now. The stand is far better for a multitude of reasons. If it's beautiful sunny, warm, dry day then the terrace is fine but besides that it can be incredibly miserable. Season ticket holders get optimal seating in most grounds in the country and it's likely the outliers will fall in line within the next year or two.

I don't know where you're going for games with this season ticket because almost all grounds I've been to (Croke Park excepted) you can buy a stand ticket and go to the terrace if that's your preference. If your team is lucky enough to make Croke Park and you want to go on the Hill just buy a Hill ticket and let someone you know know will be going pay you for the stand ticket.

I really think you've invented a problem from next to nothing.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

modmuffin wrote: »

Myself and 4 mates sat together for all games on seperaye season tickets, just rang croker and asked to be grouped together.

The season ticket is perfect for fans that genuinely go to all their counties games.

Presenting stubs etc would be an administrative nightmare

I didn't actually know that, is it possible to get a terrace ticket instead of a stand one do you know?

KevIRL wrote: »

Very easy to organise tickets together via the season ticket, I do it myself every year. Its now even possible to have different payment cards for tickets linked together. As for the terrace being better than the stand, not a chance, maybe for someone in their early 20's who doesnt really care too much about actually seeing the game and is more interested in the 'craic'.

The season ticket isnt perfect for sure, but really no one can pull the line of 'I go to all the games but cant get a ticket for the final' sob story now that its in place.

edit - also the vast majority of league games do not require tickets and therefore have no stubs

Lol, the vast majority of people on this board are 18-25, and that post reeks of superiority. It's possible to actually have the craic and watch the game at the same time. You remind me of someone who was sitting a few rows behind me for the Dublin - Mayo semi, he kept shouting at everyone to sit down, I said fair enough and did as he asked for most of it, but he kept at it for the whole game so around the 70 minute mark, when it was getting very tense and Dublin were pushing for the goal, I eventually told him to go back to his sitting room if he want to watch the game sitting down. You're probably one of these people are yea?

Clareman

If you don't want to pay for the season ticket why not buy your tickets through your local club, in most clubs they always look after the regular purchasers first and then everyone else.

Syferus

Clareman wrote: »

If you don't want to pay for the season ticket why not buy your tickets through your local club, in most clubs they always look after the regular purchasers first and then everyone else.

'Tis an absolute disaster buying from a club most times and the tickets tend to be a lottery you invariably lose in cases of reserved seating matches. That whole process is slow and, at times, painful.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Syferus wrote: »

Have you ever seen Irish weather, per chance? C'mon now. The stand is far better for a multitude of reasons. If it's beautiful sunny, warm, dry day then the terrace is fine but besides that it can be incredibly miserable. Season ticket holders get optimal seating in most grounds in the country and it's likely the outliers will fall in line within the next year or two.

I agree with that but the atmosphere always seems to be better in the terraces (when there's people actually in them), but I suppose this would only really apply for 2/10 games a year.

Syferus wrote: »

I don't know where you're going for games with this season ticket because almost all grounds I've been to (Croke Park excepted) you can buy a stand ticket and go to the terrace if that's your preference. If your team is lucky enough to make Croke Park and you want to go on the Hill just buy a Hill ticket and let someone you know know will be going pay you for the stand ticket.

Yea, but going back to my original point those people would want to be sitting beside people they know.

Syferus wrote: »

I really think you've invented a problem from next to nothing.

Probably, I'll stop now:o

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Clareman wrote: »

If you don't want to pay for the season ticket why not buy your tickets through your local club, in most clubs they always look after the regular purchasers first and then everyone else.

Lost out in the raffle last Friday:( I'm not gonna lie and say I've been to all Galway games this year, I haven't, the final was only my third, but for the other 2 games I just bought tickets on the day, less hassle.

Richard Hillman

DazMarz wrote: »

Very true. While not perfect, it is the best system there is, to be honest. These tickets for the two All Ireland Senior Finals are arguably the most coveted tickets for any games in the world; someone estimated they could have filled Croke Park three times over if everyone who wanted to go to the game today went. And I'd say last year with the showpiece final of Dublin v. Kerry, I'd say it would have been much more. Or Cork's first Final appearance in years in 2010... There is no doubt that most All Ireland Finals would attract huge crowds, easily around the quarter-million spectators mark, with some of the "bigger" (more hyped-up) finals getting even more than that.

Introducing a system where the tickets are on general sale is just opening the doors to scalpers and gougers. They'll go onto the website, buy up a few tickets and within 2 minutes have them up on eBay or donedeal or something. No way.

While the system the GAA has in place at the moment is far, far from perfect, like most systems that exist, it is still the best way to do it.

Ah now come on. Theres no arguing about it. The Superbowl tickets go for 4 figures, US Masters tickets only go to selected people, TV companies cant even get tickets for the 100m final in the Olympics.

rossie1977

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Far too many tickets go to neutral counties.In my opinion each county should be guaranteed a allocation of at least 25,000 and not the 12,500 they currently get.Then 10,000 tickets should go to the counties in the minor final fans and then another 10,000 should go to neutral counties.75% of these neutral tickets should be to counties who haven't had a team in either code in all Ireland final day in the last 10 years.

exactly, the system is not right atm, i remember in 2006 i was at every minor match up to the final except the tipp game because i was away, come the final i think roscommon got something like 1,000 tickets which was disgraceful, i know people from roscommon who were at that final that hadn't attended a minor game all year :mad:

DazMarz

Maybe not in the world, but in certain parts of the world anyway, these things are coveted. Plus, did not a pair of tickets for today get sold for €7,000? 4-figure sum right there, and that only came to light because it was publicised. Who knows how many thousands of euro is exchanged for tickets on the run up to All Irelands? But how and ever, maybe it was a bit of hyperbole, but whatever.

Also, to Dirty Dingus McGee, I meant to mention that too; neutral counties do get far too many. But this is in line with the GAA's tradition of integration of the whole country into the GAA, not just the elite few. Slightly communist, IMO. But one of those things I do not agree with. The two counties in the senior game and those of the minor counties (and I'd even be a bit leery about this, tbh) should get the lion's share. But moreso the senior teams' counties should get the lion's share.

12,500 tickets is not enough. Not nearly enough. But the GAA will not change their policy of giving out tickets. They really don't mind, because they're still gonna get €80 a pop per ticket, regardless.

okidoki987

12,500 tickets at €7,000 a pop, now that solve all the GAA problems .

PWEI

Jogathon wrote: »

I don't believe this as all tickets are scanned and your ticket would show up as being incorrect.

Why on earth would I make up a story like that. Believe me it happened &
it was back in 2003 so I don't remember the ticket been scanned back then.


As to how I ended up with a football ticket.
My brother in law got the ticket from the secretary of a county board (not going to mention which county) who he is friendly with. But that person didn't see his mistake, my brother in law who is an ex intercounty hurler & going to AI finals for over 40 years didn't notice it was a football ticket. I didn't notice it was & the guy at the gate didn't notice. It was only when me and the fella sitting in the same seat started comparing tickets he spotted that it was a football ticket. The tickets were identical even in colour but for the fact that his said Iománaíocht & mine said something like Peil Ghaelach.
I even went back to Croke Park the following week & pretended I lost the stub to try & get another one to get in to the football final. Understandably, they were having none of it.

washman3

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Ah now come on. Theres no arguing about it. The Superbowl tickets go for 4 figures, US Masters tickets only go to selected people, TV companies cant even get tickets for the 100m final in the Olympics.

Nice to hear that you enjoy the "bigger" sporting events in the world.!!
Enjoy a "man's game"......
go watch the all-ireland football and hurling finals...:D

82,300 in Croke Park today.
GAA = greatest amateur sporting organisation in the world...;)

TouchingVirus

modmuffin wrote: »

Myself and 4 mates sat together for all games on seperaye season tickets, just rang croker and asked to be grouped together.

Really? F*cking raging now I didn't do that - my dad ended up in 70X for all the championship matches for Dublin and me down in 30X :mad:

Seeing as this turned into a bit of a tickets for everyone free-for-all, any of you have any thoughts as to why the GAA don't allocate two or three blocks to people only interested in seeing the minors and then empty the blocks after? I'd love to have been able to support the Dublin minors in both codes this year on AI final day, but obviously couldn't with the fact the tickets were like gold dust because of the seniors. I thought my luck was in with the reply but alas Joe Canning put an end to that idea :pac:

Maybe there's no demand there for minors-only and I'm in the minority. Maybe the logistics would be too hard to make work - it's just something that occurred to me recently

homerjay2005

rossie1977 wrote: »

the tickets should go on general sale to stop all this bs

no they should not, going on general sale would lead to people who dont deserve tickets getting their hands on them, would increase touting more also.

the current system, if correctly applied, means that the genuine fan very rarely gets left without a ticket and that should never change.

the only thing i would chance is the system where every club gets one...i wouldnt do away with it, but maybe tweak it slightly that clubs have to apply for them rather than automatically getting them.

Lombardo86

While i do think the way they distribute the tickets is possibly the best they could do there are also serious pitfalls with it.

I know of a person who has gotten tickets to both last years and thisyears football finals through, wait for it, an Argentinian GAA club!

I am all for affiliated teams getting an allocation but seriously could it not be more heavily weighted towards teams in each of the competing counties rather than distributed, in this case, throughout the world?

I wish i was making this up but its true.

munchkin_utd

Lombardo86 wrote: »

While i do think the way they distribute the tickets is possibly the best they could do there are also serious pitfalls with it.

I know of a person who has gotten tickets to both last years and thisyears football finals through, wait for it, an Argentinian GAA club!

I am all for affiliated teams getting an allocation but seriously could it not be more heavily weighted towards teams in each of the competing counties rather than distributed, in this case, throughout the world?

I wish i was making this up but its true.

for 2011 as an example, clubs outside Ireland got 470 tickets.
http://www.thejournal.ie/who-gets-all-ireland-final-tickets-583653-Sep2012/

in comparison
Schools and educational bodies: 2,229
Central Council and former Presidents: 798
Mini-sevens: 244
Croke Park residents: 250
with the vast majority going to.....
County allocations: 58,401
Premium and corporate seating: 10,528
Season tickets: 1,884

with 470 tickets going abroad (mostly to native countymen and women travelling to the game who are playing and organising GAA sports abroad voluntarily in their own spare time just like at home) it still leaves 81,830 tickets staying in Ireland so whats the problem?

Clareman

Thanks for that link munchkin_utd, I think it's a great reflection on the GAA that over 80% of the tickets available goes to the counties, I also like the way that the other Gaelic games (Camoige, Ladies Football, Rounders and Handball) get tickets also.

Lombardo86

munchkin_utd wrote: »

for 2011 as an example, clubs outside Ireland got 470 tickets.
http://www.thejournal.ie/who-gets-all-ireland-final-tickets-583653-Sep2012/

in comparison
Schools and educational bodies: 2,229
Central Council and former Presidents: 798
Mini-sevens: 244
Croke Park residents: 250
with the vast majority going to.....
County allocations: 58,401
Premium and corporate seating: 10,528
Season tickets: 1,884

with 470 tickets going abroad (mostly to native countymen and women travelling to the game who are playing and organising GAA sports abroad voluntarily in their own spare time just like at home) it still leaves 81,830 tickets staying in Ireland so whats the problem?

OK you told me anyway! Didn't realise that link existed and that the % was that small. Point taken

MaxPower131

The season ticket is the best ever solution to shut up the whingers:D

I met three people in the run up to the All Irelands who claimed to have attended all their counties matches this year (they hadn't) and loyal supporters like them were being squeezed out by the bandwagon jumpers.

Of course I just mention the words season ticket and the silence is golden:D

Deskjockey

Picked up a football ticket yesterday morning for €40. Nally terrace. Delighted.

Qwerty27

Loads of people around the ground with signs looking for tickets form early yday, wonder did they all get sorted?

Last year official attendance was 82,300 sell out while this year it was given at 82,269 so obviously a few spare seats somewhere....

homerjay2005

munchkin_utd wrote: »

for 2011 as an example, clubs outside Ireland got 470 tickets.
http://www.thejournal.ie/who-gets-all-ireland-final-tickets-583653-Sep2012/

in comparison
Schools and educational bodies: 2,229
Central Council and former Presidents: 798
Mini-sevens: 244
Croke Park residents: 250
with the vast majority going to.....
County allocations: 58,401
Premium and corporate seating: 10,528
Season tickets: 1,884

with 470 tickets going abroad (mostly to native countymen and women travelling to the game who are playing and organising GAA sports abroad voluntarily in their own spare time just like at home) it still leaves 81,830 tickets staying in Ireland so whats the problem?

i wonder how many of the above then actually got into the hands of the competing counties officially?

munchkin_utd

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i wonder how many of the above then actually got into the hands of the competing counties officially?

donegals allocation was publicly published along with the distribution numbers to each club.

of the tickets not going directly to the participating counties, they are what they are. Tickets distributed to bodies and organisations around every corner of Ireland. They arent officially given over in a gala presentation to the Donegal or Mayo county board to be passed on!

Most of them end up in the hands of folks from the participating counties. Especially tickets from stronger counties like Cork or Kerry whos fans only go to games if their county is in it (and the case of Kerry only if they are in the final !)

By Sunday it was remarkable how many people did get sorted (AT COST PRICE!) through one avenue or another which does show that the system to a large extent works.
With 2 counties with a combined population of over 250,000(iirc) plus those living outside the county and abroad, there will ALWAYS be people left ticketless when the stadium can only hold 82,300 people.

glineli

Clareman wrote: »

I also think the GAA's model for distributing of tickets should be applauded, they do their best to ensure that grass root people get a ticket

It was next to impossible to get a ticket in Clare unless you were very pally pally with a certain county board offical. Not sure how fair that is or how he can get away with it.

InchicoreDude

munchkin_utd wrote: »

for 2011 as an example, clubs outside Ireland got 470 tickets.
http://www.thejournal.ie/who-gets-all-ireland-final-tickets-583653-Sep2012/

in comparison
Schools and educational bodies: 2,229
Central Council and former Presidents: 798
Mini-sevens: 244
Croke Park residents: 250
with the vast majority going to.....
County allocations: 58,401
Premium and corporate seating: 10,528
Season tickets: 1,884

with 470 tickets going abroad (mostly to native countymen and women travelling to the game who are playing and organising GAA sports abroad voluntarily in their own spare time just like at home) it still leaves 81,830 tickets staying in Ireland so whats the problem?

thats an interesting breakdown.

Some of the figures I would query are:

335 for provinces. Why are any given to the province when the counties get their own allocation anyway???

Schools: 2229. Which schools get tickets? Which ones dont? How is this decided? Who in the school gets the ticket? The principal? The GAA coaches? A student? I would never have thought schools would be included in ticket allocation to be honest.

munchkin_utd

InchicoreDude wrote: »

<snip>
335 for provinces. Why are any given to the province when the counties get their own allocation anyway???
<snip>

the provincial councils are a separate entity from the county boards below them or croke park above them so would have their own allocation.
Its only 80odd tickets per province so itsn't a massive allocation.

about the schools, I never saw any breakdown of that figure.
It'd be interesting to know what the background is behind that, although I think some of it goes to university/ 3rd level GAA clubs not just to second level schools.
I'd say the justification there is to reward and acknowledge all the time and effort that goes into schools football and hurling across the country, by teachers and other volunteers. Couldn't tell you if schools in the participating counties get preference or if its the same allocation every year.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

munchkin_utd wrote: »

about the schools, I never saw any breakdown of that figure.
It'd be interesting to know what the background is behind that, although I think some of it goes to university/ 3rd level GAA clubs not just to second level schools.
I'd say the justification there is to reward and acknowledge all the time and effort that goes into schools football and hurling across the country, by teachers and other volunteers. Couldn't tell you if schools in the participating counties get preference or if its the same allocation every year.

Thought myself Primary Schools got the allocation, could be completely wrong here though..