M.I.L guilt tripping my son over a profile pic :/

banie01

Hiya folks...
5 and half years in and bereavement and grief is still ****ty as hell!

I've posted before about my fairly fraught relationship with my late partners family and the general bitchiness I often find myself putting up with from her Mam, but yesterday the woman reached a new low!

I've been seeing someone since January of this year and it is going very well, she is a fantastic lady who has a caring empathy to her that is amazing...
Over the last few months she has been getting to know my son. On a bit by bit basis, no pressure to make sure it 'works' between them or anything if you understand me.
The thing is they get on fantastically well(Thankfully) and even down to sense of humour they both just click.
As I'm sure all here can understand, that means an awful lot to me.

Anyway over the course of the summer we'd been on a few days out and events and such and as I'm sure everyone else does nowadays, we took lots of pic's and I uploaded many as did my son.
On Tuesday I kept my son home from school as he was up sick the previous night and while he was ensconced on the couch in his quilt and playing DragonAge on Facebook he proceeded to change his Profile picture to 1 of Himself, me and my Girlfriend that was taken at Fota Island during the summer.

I spotted it, and had a chat with him about why he changed it, and explained that(knowing his Nana the way I do) it might cause some upset.
My son turns to me and says 'Dad, i changed the picture because that was my happiest day of the holidays and not because I want to upset anyone'
Which as a well thought out reason is better than any I could have come up with off the top of my head

But almost immediately, his maternal aunt puts up a collage picture of himself and his Mam under the banner 'Mommy and me'
Which did upset him, but we talked it out and regardless of what anyone else says my son will only ever have 1 mother, she will never be replaced and he saw that pic for what it was....
An effort to guilt trip a young child into feeling guilty for a happy memory that doesn't involve his mam!

Next day, we called to his Nana's and she proceed's to call me outside for a word!
Starts off with,'Its none of my business, but are you and XXXX getting married?' to which I responded she's right, it isn't any of her business but that no its early days and I'm not going to rush into anything.
Then she launches into a diatribe about how I had no feelings for her or her family after I allowed my son to change his FB picture to 1 of us 'playing happy families' and that if I had any concern for my son's wellbeing I wouldn't be introducing him to every bit of fluff that enters my life!
Because stability is what he needs not a revolving door!!!!

At this I told her that in the first instance it's been 5 and a half years since she died....
Me meeting someone else doesn't mean I love her any less!
She responded along the lines of whilst it's ok for me to move on, our son shouldn't!
I told her he chose the picture, He had his reasons and I felt they are good ones! Also that apart from monitoring and correcting inappropriate behaviour/messaging/friends on his online accounts, I refuse point blank to censor him or to make him feel guilty over being happy!

To be honest I have posted before about how 1 sided our relationship is with my late partners's family, its always us doing the running and visiting.
I feel that if she wants to pull a child over putting up a pic of himself at his happiest over the summer hols and guilt trip him over it,,,,
That she needs to ask herself why didn't he choose a happy pic of him and his Nana from over the summer?
But i know why....There aren't any!
She has been away 3 times over the summer with her other Grandchild and a niece over the summer while our son was left at home(Not that he missed out on anything! we had a blast)
But if a pic of her grandson happy bothers her so much.....should she not make an effort to build happy memories with him?
To be one of the people that he can share joy with?
It has gotten to point where my son asks me why Nana takes the others and not him, and not only is it not my place to answer him, I genuinely don't know why!

I try to make allowances for her on the basis that she is grieving too, but this is a bridge to far!
When I spoke to my son and told him Nana was mad over the picture because she thought we were replacing Mam....
He stopped for a second, looked at me and said 'sure dad even if ye do get married, I won't be getting a new mammy....I already have a Mam, she's great! I'll be getting a new friend!'
And what I still can't understand is how he....at 8 and a half can grasp that concept...!
That noone is ever going to replace his Mam, yet his Nana tries to guilt trip us both for enjoying a bit happiness!!!!

Ellsbells

My blood is boiling reading that... She is a head wreck but it sounds like you are doing everything right. Have you asked her why she treats him differently?

banie01

Thanks Ellsbells.
Of course I have spoken to her, she can't see any issue and refuses to acknowledge that she treats him differently to her other grandchild and niece.
When I point it out to her that there is, there is a change in her behaviour for a week or so and then it reverts to her usual self.
I'm beyond caring about her or her feelings at this stage but I absolutely refuse to let her try and make my son feel guilty for sharing happiness or indeed diminish his own grief.

tallaghtmick

I hate that woman and I dont even know her:mad:

Ellsbells

banie01 wrote: »

Thanks Ellsbells.
Of course I have spoken to her, she can't see any issue and refuses to acknowledge that she treats him differently to her other grandchild and niece.
When I point it out to her that there is, there is a change in her behaviour for a week or so and then it reverts to her usual self.
I'm beyond caring about her or her feelings at this stage but I absolutely refuse to let her try and make my son feel guilty for sharing happiness or indeed diminish his own grief.

I really dont know what to say... Sorry i am of no use to you but I just cant get into that womans head so I can't even guess what she is thinking?!?!??!!?

I really admire you for not just shutting her off altogether.

mberm

You're doing a great job with your son. To me she is jealous of how well you and your son have moved on.
Keep on with what you are doing. It is working for you.

banie01

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I hate that woman and I dont even know her:mad:

Thanks Mick, I share the sentiment but as she is my son's Grandmother I try hard not to let my feelings for her cloud my Son's.
I wouldn't want my feelings affecting their relationship, the thing is my son is switched on and very smart and he's questioning why she's acting that way.
I laid it out to her yesterday and explained that her behaviour was going to cost her any meaningful relationship with her grandson and that if and when he makes that choice, he will have my full support!

Ellsbells wrote: »

I really dont know what to say... Sorry i am of no use to you but I just cant get into that womans head so I can't even guess what she is thinking?!?!??!!?

I really admire you for not just shutting her off altogether.

I don't want to shut her off as she is my Son's Grandmother at the end of the day, I won't be the one to break that bond that she is unwittingly and bludersomely ignoring.
That said when/if my son decides that enough is enough I will act, and be brutal if needed.
He's being a happy and contented kid is my only concern, and always will be my 1st priority.

mberm wrote: »

You're doing a great job with your son. To me she is jealous of how well you and your son have moved on.
Keep on with what you are doing. It is working for you.

Thanks Mberm, it has been and still is a long road for us both.
But we support each other and talk, communication keeps us 2 strong as a family and keeps his Mam close too.

im invisible

wait, you let your 8 year old kid use facebook??

banie01

im invisible wrote: »

wait, you let your 8 year old kid use facebook??

Hmmm jump on the facebook part of the OP....

My son uses FB under my direct supervision and in fact doesn't even know what his password is. I log him in and out.
Its a means for him to stay in contact with some far flung family, (along with having a few games) while allowing me a greater degree of control over that contact and the appropriateness of it than I would have, if say I gave him a mobile phone.

Edit: and as I said in the O.P, I spoke to him about changing his picture and accepted his reasoning.

mikom

Send her a cow on farmville............ she might get the message.

Taltos

mikom - welcome to PI.
If you have not already read our charter either in PI and in Bereavement do so now.
Any further posts in this thread along the lines of the ones above will result in an immediate ban from the PI forum.

Due to the nature of the threads here we cannot tolerate posters who post in breach of our rules. Sorry if this comes across as harsh but in the PI forum, especially in Bereavement we cannot allow any messing about.

How the OP chooses to raise his son or what applications he allows him access to is none of our business. The question at hand is how to deal with the mother-in-law and suggesting the son send his grand mother a cow is to be further blunt puerile and not acceptable here.

Taltos

BBDBB

sounds like you have a very good grasp already on how to handle the MiL OP

calm
logical
best interests of your son at heart


I realise afterwards your blood is boiling, hence your post,

Im not sure there is a lot you can do with the Mil, other than simply be satisfied that you are doing a good job in raising a fine son in difficult circumstances and you dont need her approval for how you do it, how you live your lives or how you seek happiness

all the best

banie01

Folks, thanks for all the input and support expressed here its all appreciated.

I suppose long story short is that, all I want from my M.I.L is for her to be the link to his Mam that she can be.
To be supportive and above all be fair to my son, to treat him no differently to her other grandchild and niece.

I honestly don't ever expect her to be happy that I've 'moved on' because she seems to think moving on means I'm forgetting her Daughter,
That I'm leaving that part of me behind and burying it....
When the truth is, I'd happily give my own life to have her back, I still Love and miss her more than ever.
But the thing is, and this is where me and my M.I.L differ I think.
That I've learned that no matter how much I love her, how much I miss her....
I'll never have her back.

I spent a long time angry at the world because the woman I love.
The woman who I'd planned my entire life with, who honestly made me the man I am was taken from me..
For a long time I was mad at all the future moments I'd had stolen from me by her death.
But after a while, I realised I still had so much.
I had our Son, a living part of her...and of me that always kept me going.
I had 11yrs of fantastic memories that through the darkest days of my own grief always sparked a smile and all to often a tear and that still brighten those dark days that still come.

I still miss her, love her and regret the Future we were robbed of...
But I've learned that focusing on the good times we shared, keeps the bitterness I feel my M.I.L still experiences(and I do still at times) at bay.
Its just the sheer spitefulness of how she deals with the grief.
How she got upset over a little boy sharing a pic of himself happy.
How she took that as an insult to her daughters memory, rather than appreciating that even after his loss that he could still be that happy.
Its that, that bitterness at a child still managing to not only be happy but to want to share it too....
Thats the action/reaction I can't understand and have given up trying too.

Thanks again for the input folks.

tallaghtmick

^^^ I love this guy

You have a good grasp of the situation,you have not reacted to your MIL childish behaviour,is there any chance that she would want to meet you new girlfriend and see that shes a nice woman who wont try take her daughters place?

daenerysstormborn3

OP, nothing to add that hasn't been said already, other than fair play to you, I don't know if I could be so reasoned and rational in your position. You seem to be doing a great job with your kid by the way, he seems to be handling your new relationship with a lot of maturity for his age and that speaks volumes about the way you have raised him after the loss of his mum.

Although time has passed, it doesn't make the loss any less so, sorry for your loss.

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Thats the action/reaction I can't understand and have given up trying too.

I wonder does your mother-in-law know that?

And if so how she feels about it?

You have plenty to say in your post above about your loss. Well if you are as thoughtful and rational as others on this thread have said......

.....what about her loss?

She lost her daughter. That's as big a loss as we can possibly imagine for a mother. She loved her and cared for her long before you even knew who she was.

Notwithstanding your very valid and genuine efforts not to compromise your son's happiness, I think you need to make a better effort to understand why your mother-in-law feels the way she feels. Because whether you like it or not, the way she feels makes perfect sense - even if what she is doing does not.

Hannibal Smith

I suppose, however difficult it is for you to accept what happened to your partner, multiply it by a million and you're not even close to how I yeas your mother in law is feeling.

We all know that letting go of someone we love is the most difficult thing in the world. We do it when they die, and then have to do it all over again through the grieving process. Some people deal with it better than others and your mother in law isn't ready to see a new face in your family dynamic.

Of course she is being unreasonable and selfish, maybe she's entitled to be, she's suffered a terrible loss, but to interfere with your son's progress with it all is not right.

Maybe she spends less time with your son because it reminds her of her daughter?

You appear to have a great relationship with your son and have a very level had with your in law situation. And I'm sure you've given plenty of allowances for their loss too. Unless suggesting she sees a counsellor to help her grieve I don't know what you can do.

Ellsbells

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you need to make a better effort to understand why your mother-in-law feels the way she feels. Because whether you like it or not, the way she feels makes perfect sense - even if what she is doing does not.

I think he has been very understanding and thats why there is still contact. Not all son in laws would put up with that. Of course she is devastated but she is the adult here and its not fair taking her grief out on the child who has already suffered enough.

banie01

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder does your mother-in-law know that?

And if so how she feels about it?

You have plenty to say in your post above about your loss. Well if you are as thoughtful and rational as others on this thread have said......

.....what about her loss?

She lost her daughter. That's as big a loss as we can possibly imagine for a mother. She loved her and cared for her long before you even knew who she was.

Notwithstanding your very valid and genuine efforts not to compromise your son's happiness, I think you need to make a better effort to understand why your mother-in-law feels the way she feels. Because whether you like it or not, the way she feels makes perfect sense - even if what she is doing does not.

Those are very valid points Ulysess.
I hope I never have to experience the pain of losing my child....
But....
She is and adult, who has on more than one occasion berated, guilt tripped and bullied a child for expressing his own happiness along the lines of 'replacing his Mam'(This post is just about the most recent occurrence)
Her grief and loss will be with her always, but surely it is her responsibility to be sure that she doesn't begrudge her grandson achieving some happiness or make him feel any more guilt than he already does for experiencing it?

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I suppose, however difficult it is for you to accept what happened to your partner, multiply it by a million and you're not even close to how I yeas your mother in law is feeling.

We all know that letting go of someone we love is the most difficult thing in the world. We do it when they die, and then have to do it all over again through the grieving process. Some people deal with it better than others and your mother in law isn't ready to see a new face in your family dynamic.

Of course she is being unreasonable and selfish, maybe she's entitled to be, she's suffered a terrible loss, but to interfere with your son's progress with it all is not right.

No, its not right and that is really my only issue at stage.
Regardless of her pain, she needs to support our son, he is a child dealing with loss and yes kids are resilient and cope a lot better than us adults most of the time.....
But when he is struggling to make sense of situations and looking for support it should be given, not thrown back in his face in a way that makes him question his grief, his love for his mam and his continuing place in her family.

My In-laws have been of great support at times, and have always wanted to have a part in our son's life....and they always will.
They pay great lip service to wanting to be part of his life.
But they have that place because we include them, we call to them, we visit, we are available whenever they need help....
Yet despite our living within walking distance of their house, I can count on 2 hands the number of times they have come to our home since Kate died...
And the argument could be made, that its Kate's home so its difficult to visit...
But!
We only lived here 9 months before Kate died, and even then it was only a visit or 2 so it's hardly memories or sentiment keeping them away!
Wanting to maintain a relationship is a 2 way street, and they will always be our son's grandparents but what happens when he decides he doesn't want to visit?
When he feels like a second class citizen in their home one time too many?
Because he is already questioning why he is treated differently?
And if and when he does make a choice in that regard, its his feelings I will be taking note of, its him I will be supporting regardless of how it may make my M.I.L feel!

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Maybe she spends less time with your son because it reminds her of her daughter?

So by that reasoning that would be a valid excuse for me being awkward and often distant to my son!
For my not wanting to spend time with my son too?
Because he does remind me of his mother....
His looks and mannerism's are all her's!
Because if it is....Frankly it's a pathetic cop out!

Should I turn away from him, or bully him on those occasions where I'm feeling down and all I want is his mam?
And his just being himself reminds of our loss?
Or should I appreciate him all the more for being a link to what we've lost?
Because at the end of the day, while he does remind me of her....He is his own person!
With his own personality and his own future!
And its important that he develops to be his own person, always knowing where he comes from but not held up to a template of his mam!
Imagine how hurt he would be(Indeed any child in this situation), by an insinuation that his Gran is being distant because he reminds her of her daughter?
How can any child help that, how can they help whom they remind someone of?
I'd hope in any situation where that was an issue, That the adult in that situation would at the very least mask those feelings and not compound the situation!

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

You appear to have a great relationship with your son and have a very level had with your in law situation. And I'm sure you've given plenty of allowances for their loss too. Unless suggesting she sees a counsellor to help her grieve I don't know what you can do.

Thank you,I like to think I do have a good relationship with him, I hope i do and I hope it continues as whatever else happens we have come through the worst together and strong....
I hope my little family continues that way.
My M.I.L is attending bereavement counselling on an ongoing basis and it has helped her somewhat, she is a strong woman and at times how she copes amazes me!
Whatever her grief and pain at her loss, no amount of counselling will diminish that.(From my own experience it doesn't diminish but you do get better at coping)
Hopefully it will give her the tools to cope better with grief, I know it has helped me in that regard.
But I would hope that she would temper her reactions, take a deep breath before she reacts in a way that would hurt my son.

Ellsbells wrote: »

I think he has been very understanding and thats why there is still contact. Not all son in laws would put up with that. Of course she is devastated but she is the adult here and its not fair taking her grief out on the child who has already suffered enough.

Thanks Ellsbells and as I said above, my concern is her grief being used as a stick to beat my child...
Its happened on a few too many occasions now.
She needs to be an adult and appreciate he is just a child.

Hannibal Smith

Whatever her feelings are its not right for your son to be effected by them.

And no, your son reminding her of her daughter is not an excuse for how she's behaving nor did I say it was, its just an idea of an explanation for her behaviour in not seeing him. Not every adult behaves in ways they should.

At the end of the day, if you say she's not keen on seeing your son, and he's not too big on seeing her, then why are they seeing each other? I appreciate what you're saying that its up to him to decide whether he wants to still see her, but isnt that a big responsibility for a child to decide on? In the meantime he's in a situation where he's under constant criticism over how he's feeling, and feeling guilty because of things she's saying to him. You know more than anyone the grieving process is a heavy ordeal and its unhealthy for your son to feel he has to remain stuck in it. So maybe either your mother in law stops drawing him back there or you cut her out.

banie01

Thanks Hannibal, I know you were playing Devils Advocate with that suggestion, but if I thought for one second that her thoughts were coloured along those lines, I would cut contact with her.
I was just illustrating my point as to why I wouldn't consider that a valid excuse is all
My son doesn't need that kind of stress and whatever toxicity it comes with projected onto him(No child in that situation does)
To be honest all I want from in regards to how she acts around my son is a little thought, consideration for his feelings, an appreciation that its not easy for him either, and for her to support him in that.
Not project her grief onto him. Not force him to conform to her expectation of how he 'should' be feeling.
A little self control on her part is all that takes, hard yes....
Believe me I know how hard it can be to keep a lid on sometimes....
But surely he's worth that...


Its not that she's not keen on seeing him, indeed when she doesn't see him for more than a 3/4 days I get phone calls about how I am trying to shut her out of his life and complaints about me trying to ''distance'' him from his Mam's side of his family.
Its the way he is treated when he is there, and the way he is all too often sidelined in comparison to her other Grandchildren and niece's.
Left behind while they go on trips and when they have plans made with him they are often cancelled at short notice.(while the plans made including the other kids will carry on just with him excluded)
I don't want her to treat him like a pariah, whatever her reasons.
He deserves the same love, care and respect as her other grankids/nieces...
No better, no worse.
If I was a cynical person I'd view her actions as a means of her trying to feel like she is exerting some kind of control on us 2.

On the one hand she want's to be a part of his life, and I appreciate that...
I think its important for him to have as whole and as healthy a family circle as possible.
On the other, when its not on her terms she plays the victim or acts the bully when he doesn't conform to her sense of how he should be acting(be it in happiness or in grief/rememberance of his Mam).
But my only concern at this stage is that she supports my son in his feelings, in his grief and his happiness.
That she treats him as she treats the other grankids.
Not berate him when he doesn't conform to her mood or expectation of what he should be feeling.

To be honest, anyway I've tried to handle this situation she always manages to be victim.
If I limit contact, I'm trying to exclude them from his life....
If I allow more, I'm not coping as a parent and I'm trying to take advantage of them for babysitting while I try and replace her daughter!
Trying to find the happy medium is an ongoing balancing act, that I will persevere with as long as it is of benefit to my son.

I know she is grieving and hurting, but she always manages to Martyr herself on the altar of her grief and makes no effort to understand anyone else's viewpoint(Not just mine, Her Husband and other child are in the same predicament).

Ellsbells

banie01 wrote: »

Its not that she's not keen on seeing him, indeed when she doesn't see him for more than a 3/4 days I get phone calls about how I am trying to shut her out of his life and complaints about me trying to ''distance'' him from his Mam's side of his family.

How do you respond to her when she starts on like this?

banie01

Ellsbells wrote: »

How do you respond to her when she starts on like this?

I just tell her that when he wants to visit, I bring him.
He is an 8y.o boy with a big swathe of interests and extra curriculars and sometimes he will be tired, or it will be too late to swing by and indeed sometimes he just plain doesn't want to call.
I've told I'm not going to force him to visit, but that if she wants more frequent contact that she can talk to him, make some plans, give him reasons to want to visit.
I've also pointed out that we live 5minutes walk away and that she is welcome to visit anytime.

Ellsbells

And how does she justify her behaviour? She is being totally unreasonable

banie01

Ellsbells wrote: »

And how does she justify her behaviour? She is being totally unreasonable

She doesn't....
She has never felt the need to justify her behaviour for anything.
This time has been the closest I've gotten to a justification insofar as she was looking out for my son, as he needs stability and I should have given more thought to how seeing us parading and 'playing happy families' on Facebook would make her feel.
Note what I said there...How it would make HER feel.
No concern at all for why my son chose that picture, solely for how it affected her, dressed in a veneer of concern

Her thinking seems to default to'' noone understands her pain'' and sometimes she pushes too far, its all out of love for her daughter.
Her basic pattern is push until she gets called up on her behaviour, then not so much apologize as justify the behaviour on the basis of her grief and the rest of us not understanding and being too quick to move on.

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Those are very valid points.....

Fair enough. So what is her loss like?

Hannibal Smith

Would I be right in guessing that your mother in law has always been this way, as in its her way or no way and this is just another way its manifesting itself?

Your mother in law is never going to be on the same page as you and your son. She's lost something so precious, a child. So I do feel sorry for her. It can't be easy seeing a new face in your family and I know you do appreciate that.

So if you're maintaining contact, the sly comments to you, ignore them. Let them wash over you. Not easy, but if you absorb what she's saying you'll snap at her and play right into her hands. The comments to your son, nip them in the bud as and when they happen. You are In control of your son and ,what he is exposed to.

banie01

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair enough. So what is her loss like?

Whats your point?
That I should compare and contrast my son's loss with my M.I.Ls and explain to him that its ok for Nana to treat him differently because her daughter/His mother is dead and she meant much more to Nana than to me or him?
That I should excuse my M.I.L behaving like an ass towards my son because she has lost her daughter?
You seem to be implying that its an acceptable excuse for a 50+y.o Woman bullying an 8y.o child....
Is it? Or am i misunderstanding the thrust of your point?

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Would I be right in guessing that your mother in law has always been this way, as in its her way or no way and this is just another way its manifesting itself?

Your mother in law is never going to be on the same page as you and your son. She's lost something so precious, a child. So I do feel sorry for her. It can't be easy seeing a new face in your family and I know you do appreciate that.

So if you're maintaining contact, the sly comments to you, ignore them. Let them wash over you. Not easy, but if you absorb what she's saying you'll snap at her and play right into her hands. The comments to your son, nip them in the bud as and when they happen. You are In control of your son and ,what he is exposed to.

Yep Hannibal, that would be a fairly accurate call on her past behaviour.
I suppose if it was labelled it would be passive/aggresive/controlling.

I know it will never be easy for my In laws to see me with someone new and if I'm honest its not easy for me to be with someone new....

I will always be mindful of my In-Laws and they will always be part of my family due to both being my son's grandparents and because I still love their daughter!
But she needs to appreciate that my son will always be my priority, his best interests will come before everyone else's.
He will always have his mam 1st in his heart and his memory and she will never be replaced as his Mother....Ever!.
He will always know where he came from and who his family are.

As for your advice on how to handle the sniping, its appreciated
And to be honest is pretty much how I handle things at the minute.
Its water off a ducks back to me because, aside from anything else I've had 18yrs of it at this stage and if I was to take it personally, there would be no relationship for my son.
I do talk to her whenever there something comes up with my son because as you say, it is down to me to control what he is exposed and ensure his happiness.

Thanks again for the input folks it's all appreciated.

Hannibal Smith

Whatever way you decide to go forward with this, I really wish you the very best of luck with it and wish yourself and your son every happiness, especially considering all you've been through.

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Whats your point?
That I should compare and contrast my son's loss with my M.I.Ls and explain to him that its ok for Nana to treat him differently because her daughter/His mother is dead and she meant much more to Nana than to me or him?
That I should excuse my M.I.L behaving like an ass towards my son because she has lost her daughter?
You seem to be implying that its an acceptable excuse for a 50+y.o Woman bullying an 8y.o child....
Is it? Or am i misunderstanding the thrust of your point?

My thrust was to establish if you really, genuinely understood her loss, and what it felt like for her.

The above post answers my question just about as clearly as it could possibly be answered - you don't. You have no idea how she feels, and you seem to refract her behaviour through the prism of your feelings, your loss, and your needs.

There's nothing wrong with that - you suffered a terrible loss, and it's no surprise that you are behaving the way that you do. But you are kidding yourself if you pretend to understand how she feels - and understanding how she feels is the key to understanding the motivation for her behaviour. If you're not willing to do that, then you're not really looking for the answer you say you are by posting this thread.

Sorry if that's not one of the answers you were looking for by posting the thread, but I really don't think you are genuinely in a position to resolve the issues that affect the triangular relationship between you, your son and your mother-in-law as matters stand. IMHO, you have some work to do to get beyond a two-dimensional (maybe even one-dimensional) view of your mother-in-law's feelings and actions, and until you do that all the advice in the world from outsiders won't really help you.

Ickle Magoo

Folks,

As per the forum charter, PI is a strictly moderated forum anyway - even more so in the Bereavement sub-forum for reasons that should be patently obvious.

If you can't offer empathetic advice sympathetically, this isn't the forum for you and refrain from posting.

Anyone who isn't sure what the remit of this forum is should read the charter HERE before posting.

Many thanks.



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banie01

Deleted User wrote: »

My thrust was to establish if you really, genuinely understood her loss, and what it felt like for her.

The above post answers my question just about as clearly as it could possibly be answered - you don't. You have no idea how she feels, and you seem to refract her behaviour through the prism of your feelings, your loss, and your needs.

There's nothing wrong with that - you suffered a terrible loss, and it's no surprise that you are behaving the way that you do. But you are kidding yourself if you pretend to understand how she feels - and understanding how she feels is the key to understanding the motivation for her behaviour. If you're not willing to do that, then you're not really looking for the answer you say you are by posting this thread.

Sorry if that's not one of the answers you were looking for by posting the thread, but I really don't think you are genuinely in a position to resolve the issues that affect the triangular relationship between you, your son and your mother-in-law as matters stand. IMHO, you have some work to do to get beyond a two-dimensional (maybe even one-dimensional) view of your mother-in-law's feelings and actions, and until you do that all the advice in the world from outsiders won't really help you.

Thanks for the input Ulysess,
I'm not looking for any particular kind of answer, and most definitely not looking for an answer that reinforces my own viewpoint.

I've never claimed to understand her loss, I'd be lying if I said I did.
What I do know is that I suffered a devastating, crippling loss when her daughter died and I can only infer from my own grief that hers is worse.

However knowing that, what I cannot do is allow that loss/grief to be an excuse for her bullying my son.

As one dimensional as my understanding of her actions/motivations may seem or even actually may be, it really boils down to this.
On the nights when I wanted to end my own life(and still sometimes do, but not that I'm suicidal), to avoid the pain of waking and rolling over and looking at her empty pillow and realising all our plans for our future together are gone.

On the days that still come along where I mark an occasion with our son, occasions that his mam should be with us to mark and grief consumes me.

On simple little moments that pass when something happens and I turn to her to say something before I remember she's gone..
On all those occasions when my grief still overwhelms me....
My grief has never been an excuse to bully a child!

When my son started school, made his communion, won medals at sports day, marched in the parade and the myriad other achievements that matter to a little boy growing up....
Occasions when a little boy wants to share his joy and pride with both his parents there to tell him well done, we love you son...
Moments my son will never ever have!
On all those occasions my son never decided that his loss was an excuse to bully someone, and indeed when the grief hits him he makes efforts to talk through it and not react by inflicting hurt on someone else.

So I hope you'll appreciate it if I'm still at a loss to be able to understand how grief excuses a grown woman bullying a child.
I can understand the emotional process that leads to her needing to lash out at something or someone...
I cannot understand how it becomes acceptable for that emotional attack to be made on a child.

PyeContinental

So sorry to hear of your situation, but also so impressed at how emotionally stable you are and how you are bringing up your son so well, and taking the time to consider everything so carefully and remain rational in the face of a barrage of irrationality.

It was especially heartbreaking to read your last post. Well done for keeping it together and finding the strength to keep on going. Maybe you could explain a lot of what you've told us to your mother in law, but start by saying how much you loved her daughter and how you still do and how you will continue to miss her so much. Explain that your son's happiness is the most important thing to you and how you know that's what's the most important thing to her too.

If that sort of approach doesn't open up a productive dialogue, perhaps the father in law or brother or sister in law could intercede? (Sorry if I missed that but I didn't see mention of whether her husband was still around and if so, how he or their other children felt about her behaviour - apart from the collage sister)

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Thanks for the input....

Sorry it's not proving helpful, and sorry if it comes across as less than sympathetic; that isn't my intention. Perhaps if I tell you a wee story it might explain where I'm coming from.

I know someone in more or less the same position as you; and I know someone in pretty much the same position as her. Well, that's not quite true. Their story - which is hauntingly like the story of you and your mother-in-law - started going on 25 years ago. It's fair to say that it hasn't gone well. They shared a common grief, and that grief divided rather than unified them. In one respect that was actually OK; they never really got along anyway. But a lot of other people paid a price for their personal dislike of each other, including two girls who really shouldn't have been caught in the crossfire (his kids, her grandkids). And the two of them have paid a heavy price too, by alienating friends and relations over the years. It got bitter and poisonous, and it still is to this day.

Why did it happen? Who knows for sure? Both (quite understandably) felt an intense sense of loss, and both (not so understandably) believed that the other was incapable of understanding their loss and their grief. Both were happy to blame each other, and neither ever seemed to see the value in considering what was happening from the point of view of the other. Both are adamant that the bad blood between them is the other one's fault. Regrettably, it seems that they are both 100% correct - for all the good that does either of them.

Anyway, that's my little story, and what I'm saying is that it'd be nice to think that in 15 or 20 years time you won't find yourself inhabiting a similar wasteland.

The best of luck to you in your efforts.

Ellsbells

The crux of the matter is that she was like this before your wife died. It's her modus operandi and like a lot of other Irish mammies she is never wrong.:rolleyes:

I don't think she will ever change I am sorry to say but I do really think you are doing a great job under very difficult circumstances.

She actually doesn't know how lucky she is to have him. I know my family would love to have a grandchild from my sibling who died but sadly they never had kids.

banie01

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry it's not proving helpful, and sorry if it comes across as less than sympathetic; that isn't my intention. Perhaps if I tell you a wee story it might explain where I'm coming from.

I know someone in more or less the same position as you; and I know someone in pretty much the same position as her. Well, that's not quite true. Their story - which is hauntingly like the story of you and your mother-in-law - started going on 25 years ago. It's fair to say that it hasn't gone well. They shared a common grief, and that grief divided rather than unified them. In one respect that was actually OK; they never really got along anyway. But a lot of other people paid a price for their personal dislike of each other, including two girls who really shouldn't have been caught in the crossfire (his kids, her grandkids). And the two of them have paid a heavy price too, by alienating friends and relations over the years. It got bitter and poisonous, and it still is to this day.

Why did it happen? Who knows for sure? Both (quite understandably) felt an intense sense of loss, and both (not so understandably) believed that the other was incapable of understanding their loss and their grief. Both were happy to blame each other, and neither ever seemed to see the value in considering what was happening from the point of view of the other. Both are adamant that the bad blood between them is the other one's fault. Regrettably, it seems that they are both 100% correct - for all the good that does either of them.

Anyway, that's my little story, and what I'm saying is that it'd be nice to think that in 15 or 20 years time you won't find yourself inhabiting a similar wasteland.

The best of luck to you in your efforts.

Ulysses, thanks again for sharing the benefit of your experience.

However, and this is a very important point.
My relationship with my M.I.L was dysfunctional long before her daughter died.
I don't expect shared grief to bring us any closer nor indeed do I see it as a basis for some kind epiphany that will allow us to approach rapprochment.
After all grieving is an intensely personal experience that everyone experiences differently.
The only commonality is the loss
The depth of her's should not be an issue in how she interacts with my son.
To be perfectly honest if it is, if it is that uncontrollable that it is a valid(in her mind) excuse for bulling a child, I feel she should take a step back from involving herself so much in our lives.
It is an Adults role to support children in their travails, it is not a particularly adult act to project ones grief and bully a child.

How she interacts with my son, how she treats him are my issues with the woman.
Can she be an adult about it, can she accept that a little boy experiencing happiness and sharing that, is not a sleight to his mothers memory?
That him being happy and well adjusted is just as important moving him forward as her own loss is?


Yes her loss is terrible, but she is behaving in a very bipolar manner towards my son.
On the one hand she wants to be a cog in his life(and I'm supportive of that) and indeed complains when she feels we ''exclude'' her.
On the other, she can chop and change plans with him at the drop of a hat.
Can bully him when he doesn't conform to her notion of how she should be grieving, and how his grief fits her mood.
Can ostracize and treat him like a second class citizen compared to his cousins?
Can accuse a child of 'replacing his mother' because he shared a happy memory
This is a relationship I work at maintaining for the sole benefit of my son, (and out of a continuing sense of loyalty to her daughter).
And to be honest if he is going to be treated like this, there's no benefit to it.
Other than being the example of how not to treat people.

I don't think I'll ever understand the depth of her grief as you pointed out earlier....
Nor do I think she will ever understand ours but I don't want or need her understanding...
Because my grief isn't the framework within my relationships are maintained.
For her to maintain a healthy relationship with my son I don't need her understanding nor should she need mine.
I feel however that what she does need to do is appreciate that he's the child!
He's the one without a mother and that he is the one in need of a supportive nurturing framework on which to base his interactions and relationships and I'd rather he learns to base those interactions on respect, love and support then to learn that grief is an excuse that allows bitterness and acrimony to become acceptable means of treating people.

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Ulysses, thanks again for sharing the benefit of your experience.

You're welcome - not that it is helping. Rather than continue to be unhelpful, I'll repeat something I said earlier - because I think it bears repeating - and then sign off:

Deleted User wrote: »

.....it'd be nice to think that in 15 or 20 years time you won't find yourself inhabiting a similar wasteland.

The best of luck to you in your efforts.

Queen-Mise

Ellsbells wrote: »

The crux of the matter is that she was like this before your wife died.

This is the piece of information I was looking for whilst reading all the posts.

This situation that started at the weekend with your son changing his FB* picture has absolutely nothing got to do with the death of your wife.

This is about control (is my best bet). I honestly think that if you tried (theoretically) to do everything possible to please your MIL, you still wouldn't be able to. I'd say the MIL is unhappy in her own life (probably for a long time) and has developed some coping mechanisms that are not pleasant for those around her (probably also has the passive/aggressive personality type). She may even has this personality directly from her own mother.

I think it is time to take away the death of her daughter as any explanation/justification of her actions. If she was still alive & with you today, your MIL would still be finding some ways to poke or criticise your marriage or child rearing. Maybe not so directly but I would bet you would have written a thread at some point on PI on how to deal with a MIL.

My suggestion is to go back to the drawing board on how to deal with an interfering yet important relative. Take away all the other emotional luggage and start again.

It is important that you facilitate a relationship for your son but not necessarily for yourself. Maybe see can you engineer the MIL spending time with your son but without you there - collect or drop him off from school, some of his extra-curricular, stay for a night (while you go out with the LADS**). [The unintended (hopefully) side effect from this will be if your lets it out that he likes the GF, as she is a good friend (type thing).]

Your MIL is never going to understand, accept or approve of your actions.

I have had to accept this with my own MIL, I am tolerated: bullied, derided etc if she can get away with it (his family generally would treat me badly if I allowed them too). I have to put a guard up when I am around them, if they are nice for six months or 12 months, and my guard goes down - it is like they can sense it and the bullying, snide comments etc. will all start again.
God forbid that anything would happen my husband, these facts will not change. They would not become a supportive family if anything happens.


I hope this is all OK & hasn't been too blunt or broken any charters etc.

*My 11 year old son also has a FB page and has done for the past few years. He wanted to play some of the games & I preferred to have him on FB with them than wandering around different websites etc. I log in to it and poke about - basically I censor everything and make no apology for it. He loves being able to post happy birthday's etc on families walls and talking to cousins who don't live close by etc.

** The GF at this point would probably cause an apoplexy & I'm not being flippant.

curlzy

Hey OP,

I'm not a parent and I've never lost a partner so I don't know what help I can be, please be aware that this is all coming from what I IMAGINE you're experiencing. Firstly, I just wanted to say that your little boy is very lucky to have a dad like you. Even though the wicked witch of the west is obviously an obnoxious person you still keep turning the other cheek. I can totally understand why and you have my admiration, regardless of what she's been through she's acting like a total cow to both you and your son. It takes alot of strength to continue making the effort as you have.

What I would do if I were you, is be ready to listen to your son if he wants to stop visiting her. Regardless of familial ties I really wouldn't encourage a child to be around someone who treats him/her badly. Doesn't matter if it's grandmother, grandfather, mother, father etc. All that's teaching him at the moment is that it's not ok to be happy, that he's not as good as his cousins and that he isn't loved as much as them. That's seriously damaging for a child and definately the last thing he needs.

I certainly wouldn't be taking abusive calls or rants from her either, if she can be civil and sane then just walk away. I honestly think you need to pull back a bit here. At the end of the day you're raising her grandchild and she should be supporting you, if she can't, well then I honestly would be pulling away and stop trying so hard.

Best of luck to you all.

banie01

Thanks Curlzy,
My son's well being is my sole concern in all this, and supporting him is exactly what I will do regardless of any upset it may cause my M.I.L.
Providing him support and ensuring his happiness is my paramount concern in all this and if it does transpire that his Nana can't bottle up her own feelings and be the support he needs then I will put a lot of distance between them if he chooses to distance himself.
I won't have him victimised by anyone for simply being happy, least of all someone who should be concerned only with his well being.

The Cool

Hi OP,

Firstly just fair play to you for dealing with it the way you have - you seem to have the right way of looking at how your son's relationships should be etc, and it's lovely that your son also understands that while his mum will always be #1, it's ok to accept somebody else into your lives. As you say, it doesn't mean that you love your deceased partner any less but you deserve to be happy and you seem to be quite a young man. Bitterness about there being a so-called "replacement" of your partner (although obviously that will never be the case) is uncalled for at the point of five and a half years after her passing. I appreciate that your MIL has the loss of her daughter to deal with here, but she also has to understand that you and your son have your whole lives ahead of you and those lives should be happy. You've taken enough sadness already.

I think that you should bear in mind - and it would be great if your MIL saw it this way too - that your son's mum would not want him (or you) to carry on with a big gaping hole in his life. I think it's great that you have found a new partner who your son accepts and therefore he might have a maternal parent figure in his life. It's not as if you two are forgetting her; she will always be in your hearts but it's perfectly fine for you both to have found someone special to join you on your journey. All the best.

boobar

banie01 wrote: »

Thanks Curlzy,
My son's well being is my sole concern in all this, and supporting him is exactly what I will do regardless of any upset it may cause my M.I.L.
Providing him support and ensuring his happiness is my paramount concern in all this and if it does transpire that his Nana can't bottle up her own feelings and be the support he needs then I will put a lot of distance between them if he chooses to distance himself.
I won't have him victimised by anyone for simply being happy, least of all someone who should be concerned only with his well being.

Banie01,

First off, I'm sorry for your loss and well done on doing such a good job with your son. To have a kid explain that the reason he chose a photo for Facebook was because it was the happiest day of his holidays and in the pic was him, you and your partner. So you've got something very dear there and you should be proud of yourself.

It's hard when others can't put themselves in the place of the child, poor kid will have gone through enough losing his mum but you'll have gathered from many of the comments here that he's getting all the love and support he could wish for from his dad.

In all things, kids should get to be kids and not have to become old before their time doing things like considering how their innocent actions might upset adults.

You're focussing on the right thing - your son's happiness.

Health and happiness to you and yours for the future.

ash23

OP I can't really give advice, just some experience from our family. My uncle died when he was young. He wasn't long married and they had 3 children. His wife remarried a few years later and despite them only living a few miles away, they were never really as involved in our family as our other cousins.
This made my grandmother very upset as they were the only link she had to her late son and she held it against her daughter in law.

Now, as a single parent with a new partner, I can see how easily it can happen. I'm not suggesting that separating is the same as losing someone so bear with me. Myself and my ex split almost 5 years ago. My daughter was very close to his mother and remains so. But I will admit I am guilty of not making time for her. Between work and school and activities and my new partner and my family and friends, she gets somewhat left out of the picture. I do make the effort but sometimes I think "god, it's been a month since she saw her" and I'll call and make arrangements to drop her in.

I think that when that common link is gone, people tend to get sidetracked by the people who are in their lives daily. We all think at times "I must catch up with xyz" and then forget about it again.

I know you don't want to "force" your son to go and visit but would it be any harm having a scheduled visit? Once a week?

Maybe if the gran felt that the bond was stronger she would be more able to accept the fact that you are moving on and it wouldn't be met with a fear that your son will grow up feeling closer to your and your partners family than to your late wifes family?

The cousins in question are now adults and over the last decade they've made great strides in becoming part of our family again. As kids we never went to their birthday parties or they never came to ours. But now we all attend each others weddings and christenings etc.

My gran thankfully lived to see this and it gave her such joy. She was still resistant and begrudging to her daughter in law at times but I think her daughter in law understood as time passed.

It's a very complex situation you're in and there's hurt and grief at the core of it.

I don't think your son was wrong to change his profile picture but I think I can understand what a blow that would have been to your late wifes family. And they could and should have handled it better but grief is a terrible thing and some people are jealous and angry when others continue to live their lives when another cannot.

Best of luck with it OP. It's a hard situation.

banie01

ash23 wrote: »

I know you don't want to "force" your son to go and visit but would it be any harm having a scheduled visit? Once a week?

Maybe if the gran felt that the bond was stronger she would be more able to accept the fact that you are moving on and it wouldn't be met with a fear that your son will grow up feeling closer to your and your partners family than to your late wifes family?

Ash,
thanks for the input your advice is appreciated, indeed I often look for your advice 1st on most topics in PI/RI.

But just on the above point....
You've completely misunderstood the situation regarding the 'visit's'.
Its not that I can't or won't make them, nor indeed that I currently have to force him to go.
My son see's his Grandparents at least twice a week, and most weeks he will sleep over there 1 night too.
Indeed we both go out of our way to make time and involve them, because they are my son's link to his Mam and he is theirs.
Not only do we visit, we make every effort to include them in family occasions and activities.
Efforts that are never reciprocated, but that we are pulled up on quickly enough when they lapse.

The problem is not in making time for a visit, or indeed in even feeling obligated to visit....
They are our family after all.
The problem is him being treated differently by them and the fact that he is becoming more and more aware of those differences.
Particularly his Nana and him at 8 years old being bullied and made feel guilty for expressing his own happiness.

When I said I wouldn't force him to visit.
That was in regard to not forcing my son to visit a person who often goes out of her way to bully him and treat him like a Pariah.
That if and when he decides that he has had enough of it, I will not force him to keep open a relationship that is one sided and often toxic.
At the end of the day, that will be his decision,and I won't influence him in it but i will talk it through with him and support him in whatever decision he makes.
But that said I'm happy to say that since the OP the situation between them has improved enough so as I can say I'm hopeful she has at least copped on a bit and realised that no matter how deep her grief is...
That he's the child, and that her behaviour towards him was often unacceptable, that she should be supporting him and not berating him.

Its not about me moving on, or him forgetting his family and never has been.
Because honestly that will never happen!
I mean its almost 6yrs since his Mam died and we still have a relationship and still visit 2/3 times a week including a sleepover most weeks.
It's about my son being supported and comfortable in learning to accept his own happiness and his willingness to share that.

To not have an 8yo lumbered with our(both hers and mine) residual guilt,grief and whatever other ****e we are still carrying with us and letting that cloud his interactions and relationships,
Its about teaching him to how to participate in healthy relationships.
How to understand and deal with his own emotions and not project his grief on others.