Royal Canin vet care??

Louboutfan

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has experience with the Royal Canin range that you buy from the vet? I currently have my dog on the Vet Care Pediatric Junior for large dogs. It's the first food that she's really eating. We've tried a few - Real Nature, Select Gold etc but she either didn't like it or it didn't like her!!:eek:

I spoke to my vet and he recommended the Vet care range by royal canin - he said the only difference between the vet care and the version you buy in pet shops is that the Vet Care is 90% digestible. We went to a dog trainer recently and she said to avoid foods that list a non-meat ingredient first. The first ingredient in the RC vet care is maize.

I'm just wondering - is RC the super premium food that I was told it was?

Rommie

Louboutfan wrote: »

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has experience with the Royal Canin range that you buy from the vet? I currently have my dog on the Vet Care Pediatric Junior for large dogs. It's the first food that she's really eating. We've tried a few - Real Nature, Select Gold etc but she either didn't like it or it didn't like her!!:eek:

I spoke to my vet and he recommended the Vet care range by royal canin - he said the only difference between the vet care and the version you buy in pet shops is that the Vet Care is 90% digestible. We went to a dog trainer recently and she said to avoid foods that list a non-meat ingredient first. The first ingredient in the RC vet care is maize.

I'm just wondering - is RC the super premium food that I was told it was?

Of course the vet will tell you its great, he gets comission for every bag he sells! Personally, I dont like Royal Canin at all. It used to be a great food, but they've changed the recipe to include more cereals and less meat. They also list ingredients like 'animal protein', which animal exactly do these come from!? I also think it's completely overpriced for what's in it, there are far better, far cheaper foods out there.

Louboutfan

Thanks for your response.

She doesn't do too well on foods with a higher protein content - like Orijen for example. I might wait until she is a little older and switch her to a grain free food but for the moment I think it's too rich for her.

I don't know what to do!!! What brands would you suggest Rommie?

Rommie

What breed is she? My own dog back home eats Real nature, but one my housemate's dogs has recently been diagnosed as celiac so he's on an all raw meat diet, the other two adults are on High 5 and the pup is on Skinners (this has to be bought in from England). They're all doing well on them. We're hoping to move all four onto raw because the oldest is doing so well on it. If you don't want to go the raw route, the most important thing is make sure you go for a food with a high meat content listed as the first ingredient, and something with as little cereals as possible.

Louboutfan

She's a lab.

What do you mean by a raw diet - like raw meat? Sorry I'm clueless!:o

Rommie

Yup, a diet of just raw meat and bones. The oldest fella is on 800g meat a day, 100g of bone, 50g organ and 50g liver. And he's doing brilliant on it. He's even pooping way less and there's less to clean up. He's 58kgs though, that's why he's on so much, but a smaller dog would be on less. Last time we went shopping for meat for him it cost 18euro for just under two weeks of food. So about forty euro a month to feed him. Royal Canin is about 70 i think?

andreac

Theres a big difference between the normal royal canin and then the veterinary prescription Royal Canin and the latter is very good for specific medical conditions and cannot be compared to the normal Royal Canin at all as they are very different.

Why is she on the pediatric one, has she a medical condition? Im sure its very expensive is it and unless theres an underlying medical condition that means you have to feed it then i would change her to something else.

When you change foods, do you do it very gradually? If you dont it will cause tummy upset etc so maybe thats the problem you are having. Also, you say she doesnt like it, how long do you give her to get used to it? You need to be strict and not give in at the first hurdle if she turns her nose up at it.

Louboutfan

Hi - thanks for you response.

She doesn't have a specific medical condition and this food isn't for anything in particular - other than the vet recommended it. It's just called 'Royal Canin pediatric Junior large dog'.

Yes, I am switching the foods very gradually - over a period of a week to 10 days. The last food she was on was Select Gold by Maxi zoo and she had terrible gas, soft stools and her tummy was making gargling noises all the time. When I explained this to the vet he recommended the Royal Canin Vet care and said it was a super premium food.

andreac

How much is it per bag if you dont mind me asking? There are plenty of other foods on sale that might suit. Arden Grange, Burns, Eukanuba, Clinivet etc that might suit your dog and are far cheaper than R.C.

Louboutfan

We paid €29.95 for a 4 kg bag. They had Burns too but recommended this over Burns - I think they are appox. the same price?

andreac

Yeah course he would, sure hes getting commission for selling it!!

29 for 4 kg, thats madness!! You can get a very good quality food for about 30-50 for a 15kg bag. Theres no point buying a 4kg, as im sure that hardly lasts that long at all, does it?

Better off buying a big bag and its more economical.

I would def look into getting something else. Have a look at zooplus, or dogfooddirect.ie. lots of great deals online there.

westies4ever

andreac wrote: »

Better off buying a big bag and its more economical.

This. But just make sure you buy a food bin with a sealable lid so the food doesnt go off. Most pet food suppliers can get you one.

paultf

Louboutfan wrote: »

We paid €29.95 for a 4 kg bag. They had Burns too but recommended this over Burns - I think they are appox. the same price?

If you are thinking of Burns, there is a good alternative called Skinners. There is a great thread here about it:- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76455856

At the moment I have one of my dogs on Skinners duck & rice. From what I can tell it seems to be the same as Burns: low protein, 20% meat - the only difference is Burns has 60% brown rice whereas Skinners have 40%.

Not sure if online suits but you can get Skinners on Amazon: £20 for 15kg with free delivery. Setup a 'Subscribe & Save' a/c, say how often you want the food delivered and they automatically deliver.

Skinners have a junior version too.

Louboutfan

andreac wrote: »

Yeah course he would, sure hes getting commission for selling it!!

29 for 4 kg, thats madness!! You can get a very good quality food for about 30-50 for a 15kg bag. Theres no point buying a 4kg, as im sure that hardly lasts that long at all, does it?

Better off buying a big bag and its more economical.

I would def look into getting something else. Have a look at zooplus, or dogfooddirect.ie. lots of great deals online there.

Yes but he sells RC & Burns so he's making a commission on both! He recommended the RC over Burns.

Obviously I know the big bags are more economical but we got a small bag to make sure it agreed with her first! I already got caught that way when I bought a big bag of Orijen for her and she turned her nose up at it!

I'm not really concerned with getting a deal as such - I don't mind what the foods costs. I'm more interested in giving my dog the best food I can that she will (a) eat and (b) tolerate.

cormac_byrne

Louboutfan wrote: »

I'm not really concerned with getting a deal as such - I don't mind what the foods costs. I'm more interested in giving my dog the best food I can that she will (a) eat and (b) tolerate.

There's plenty on info on dogfoodproject.com that will help you evaluating different products.

DBB

Like a lot of other people, I was always a great fan of getting the best dry food I could afford. I suppose I was kind of lucky back then in that, when I first got my very own dogs, the quality of the good quality foods was reasonably good. These foods include Royal Canin, James Wellbeloved, Nutro and others.
However, I have finally concluded that most of the dry foods available now are, quite frankly, crap. They are trading on the strength of a reputation they don't deserve to have any more. Full of cereals, derivatives, colourants, flavorings, any meat they contain has been cooked, cooked and cooked again.
I think dry foods are a major cause of early death in dogs, dogs aged 10ish years of age, with kidney and liver problems. A shiny coat and plenty of energy in a young dog is simply not a good enough indicator of how good the diet is. It's when the dog starts to age that the effects of a lifetime of dry feeding kicks in. The problem with this is that, because it happens later in life, the connection is not made by the owner. But steeped in dogdom as I am, I see many, many more dogs of the older (10+) age group dying of diseases and cancers of the throat, kidneys, liver, and pancreas, than I did years ago. This is not to mention the huge number of younger dogs suffering from rumbly-tummy, flatulence, loose stools, problematical anal glands, and various diet-related behavioural problems that I see on a regular basis.
Whilst I used to painstakingly research various dry foods to advise dog owners to use, I'm now at the stage where I cannot, in all good consciousness, recommend pretty much any of the dry foods any more.
I feed my own dogs raw. Two of them are aged 10+, and I can directly affect such conditions as joint problems, digestive health, and mental health by targeting their diets to their age group. I also advise owners to feed raw, because at worst, you know what's going into your dog with it. But in fact, the benefits of feeding a fresh, natural diet far surpasses just this advantage.
If I had to have my arm twisted and was ordered by my dogs to feed them dry, then I'd be going for one of two brands. One is Barking Heads (hard enough to get but hopefully gaining ground), and Taste of the Wild (available on zooplus.ie). And even then I'd be supplementing the dry food with some fresh meat and fish, and meaty bones!
OP, why not write to a few of these companies and get some free samples, see if your lady likes them? Or better again, switch slowly to raw!

Irishchick

Where do people get this idea that vets get commission from dog food. No vet I know gets a commission from RC

I was responsible for the ordering for a while in my last practice and we certainly didn't get any "commission".

Like everything there is a mark up on the food but its next to nothing. If a vet really want to make money he'd try to sell extra drugs (which have a 100% mark up) instead of food/prescription food.

DBB

Irishchick wrote: »

Where do people get this idea that vets get commission from dog food. No vet I know gets a commission from RC

What about Hill's Science Plan? RC is only recently becoming available in vet surgeries so can't comment for this brand, but any vets I've asked have grinned widely when asked what commission/mark up they get for Hill's. I can't remember how much it is, but it is substantial, or at least was when I asked.
As for Burns, I have received deals from them, as has my vet, which gave me the opportunity to add as much as 50% to the price I paid for it in order to match shop prices.
Likewise for other popular brands over the years.

Irishchick

I can't speak for hills but the mark up on RC certainly wasn't anything to write home about.

paultf

DBB wrote: »

As for Burns, I have received deals from them, as has my vet, which gave me the opportunity to add as much as 50% to the price I paid for it in order to match shop prices.
Likewise for other popular brands over the years.

50% is some markup! A pet store near me sells Burns for ~€55.

Do pet stores have a markup as high as that?

With such profit, no wonder there are so many foods on the market.

Pauvre Con

If dry foods are generally so poor why do the vets recommend it?

DBB

Pauvre Con wrote: »

If dry foods are generally so poor why do the vets recommend it?

Several reasons already addressed here.
They do not get much in the way of formal training in dietary needs in dogs. The only "training" they get is from the dog food companies, which is highly biased. It is also complicated by the fact that there is good money to be made from selling it.
Health problems which are diet related are extremely common in dogs, yet vets seem to be generally poor at making the connection.
Many vets also freely give out behavioural advice, when they are not trained in it. So much so that in many cases the advice they can give is disastrously poor and even dangerous. Lack of training in these fields does not seem to stop many vets from advising on them anyway, when they really have no business doing so, unless they make it their business to learn more or become qualified in those fields.
Vets study veterinary medicine. This does not make them some sort of oracles in all animal matters, and just because they sell x, y or z doesn't mean that's what's best for your dog. A local vet near me sells choke chains and remote controlled shock collars, for goodness sake.

Pauvre Con

I've got to believe a vet would put an animal's welfare ahead of business. Plus I've never been recommended a particular brand of dry food - just simply advised to continue feeding it to the dog. Still, this thread and the other one on the go (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056759928) has given me pause for thought. I can see the logic of a more natural diet being healthier. I've always imagined regularly giving fresh meat to a dog ending up costing an arm and leg though!

Irishchick

I've got to believe a vet would put an animal's welfare ahead of business.

99.9% of them do.

I've always imagined regularly giving fresh meat to a dog ending up costing an arm and leg though!

It doesn't if your smart about it. If you decide to start adding meat then source a local butcher (not tesco or any other supermarket). Ask him for chicken/turkey necks, beef heart, lambs liver. These are cheap cuts. also ask him what days he kills on and if possible could he keep you some bones and off cuts. Most butchers will.

Just be aware that there is a risk of choking/perforation with bones so I'd always make sure the bone is the right size for the dog and supervise when a dog is with a bone.

Pauvre Con

Thanks. How would you judge what is the correct amount to give though? Obviously the dry food comes with detailed instructions on quantity in relation to weight and age but if you're giving the dog all sorts of different cuts of meat...

andreac

Pauvre Con wrote: »

Thanks. How would you judge what is the correct amount to give though? Obviously the dry food comes with detailed instructions on quantity in relation to weight and age but if you're giving the dog all sorts of different cuts of meat...

If you do a search online it recommends how much in weight to give in relation to your dogs weight.

I stand corrected but im nearly sure its 2% of the dogs weight in food, more for a puppy, think thats 5% but i havent seen the info for a while so i could be wrong.:o

gregers85

I recently changed from royal canin to another brand, I have always found it a good food that suited my dogs! I had to change due to price issues really!! whilst researching a new food I came across this website its well worth a look through to see if your food is on it and what it really does for the dog! it rates the food with a star system!

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

DBB

Irishchick wrote: »

These are cheap cuts. also ask him what days he kills on and if possible could he keep you some bones and off cuts. Most butchers will.

I wouldn't be relying on sourcing meat in this way from your butcher, for the simple reason that the vast majority of butchers do not kill animals on their premises any more, as they must be a licenced abbatoir to do so, which most butchers aren't.
For this reason, it can be difficult to get stuff that humans don't tend to eat, like some offal, chicken necks etc, although some butchers will source them for your from elsewhere if you're lucky.

Pauvre Con wrote: »

I've got to believe a vet would put an animal's welfare ahead of business.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe the vast majority of vets recommend dry food for nefarious reasons. The problem is that, like with behavioural issues, a lot of vets don't actually realise how much they don't know about it, and don't necessarily realise there are better alternatives.
I don't know how many vets I've come across who give out behavioural advice based on having watched a few editions of Cesar Milan. However, some vets are now aware that there are qualified behavioural specialists about, and happily are more than happy to refer their clients to the people who are trained to deal with these issue. I can only assume and hope the same happens with food.
So, I don't believe that most vets would compromise a pet's health on purpose.

Pauvre Con wrote: »

How would you judge what is the correct amount to give though? Obviously the dry food comes with detailed instructions on quantity in relation to weight and age but if you're giving the dog all sorts of different cuts of meat...

You're usually talking about 3% of body weight per day. To give some perspective, I feed my 38kg GSD for about €9 per week on fresh meat, bones, and a wee bit of veg, which is about the same, if not a little less, as I'd pay to feed her one of the more expensive dry food.
Have a look at www.dogsfirst.ie , there's a lot of good info on there to get you going!

Coggy2012

I just bought a 14kg bag of hypoallergenic, it was infested with bugs. I'll be looking for the €100 (Well €97) back on that crap.

Lizard_Moon

Everyone who has a retail business has a markup on their products.
We sell dog food as our clients request it. If I sold it at cost price I would lose money due to the overheads of running a business.
That is not even taking to account the debt caused to my practice by some people assuming that they don't have to pay for my clinic staff's time, expertise and drugs etc.

I was very interested to read, in the RAW food threads, that products are available for purchase that take all the 'hassle' out of dealing with raw food. I assume the people selling these will have a mark up. Personally if I ever considered feeding my 15 yr old raw food- I don't he gets Hills- I would not feed a roll of "meat" to him. I have terrible memories of corned beef and Billy Roll as a kid.........

JustAThought

Hmm- i have a thing for billy roll + Chef Salad Cream and corned beef!!! Different tastes!!! I have to whisper my order to the girl at.the.deli.sandwich counter!! The shame!!

My dog was on RC vets - the hills, ordinary RC, JamesWellBeloved ( same factory different brand) etc all ran through her. Then they changed the ingredients of the RC perscription stuff to * duck* and it was almost e80 a bag and didnt agree with her. Horrors.

I figured out it was cheeper feeding her salomn from lidl/aldi which i did for a while. Then i got jealous + found a.salmon + potato * home made* kibble at e20 for a 15kg bag - from the Irish Rosette Pet shop + kennels near lusk on the old belfast road.

Also. This stuff from www.bestformydog.com which aldo totally agred with her + they will deliver to work/ home whatever. GREAT service. Ask Paul for samples - they have a large range + its very good. I used buy the yellow +/ purple bags - cant remember the names offhand but they.went down well + came back out equally well! I cant remember the price but it was equally fair + managable .

Ive.no doubt vets get a mark-up +get trade prices on their stock. So do butchers. Etc. Thats just.a. commercial reality.

If my dog got a perforated anything from her food I would never get past it. + i dont intend boiling bones or supervising a gnawing dog for hours. Each to their own - dogs have survived on scraps + bones or generations.

Im guessing that the biggest growth industry would be testing + checking their product. I know they employ nutritionists + science grads - its not just randomly.choosen off a cubord shelf. And no doubt litigation let alone legislation keeps the * proper* guys all in check .

DBB

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

I was very interested to read, in the RAW food threads, that products are available for purchase that take all the 'hassle' out of dealing with raw food. I assume the people selling these will have a mark up. Personally if I ever considered feeding my 15 yr old raw food- I don't he gets Hills- I would not feed a roll of "meat" to him. I have terrible memories of corned beef and Billy Roll as a kid.........

Of course they have a mark-up. I don't think anyone is arguing that the seller shouldn't mark-up. But I do think it can cause a seller to press harder for certain products to be sold, not necessarily because they're the best, but because they have greater profit margins.
To clarify, the "roll of meat" being described on the raw food thread is nothing like the old rolls of corned beef and Billy Roll! It is simply fresh, roughly minced meat and cooked veg all packed into a cylindrical plastic pack. It's as fresh as any pack of meat you'd buy in the supermarket or from the butcher. I've just moved my dogs onto it, and it is exactly the same as when I used to go and buy raw mince from Tesco, buy fresh veg, bring the veg home, chop it, liquidise it, freeze it, thaw it, cook it, then mix it into the meat... except I don't have to do any of what's written after the word "Tesco"! Plus, it contains herbs and seaweed. And it costs me a little less than buying all the ingredients and doing all the work myself, and all of this costs me less than feeding the better quality dry dog foods. Happy days!

Lizard_Moon

DBB wrote: »

Of course they have a mark-up. I don't think anyone is arguing that the seller shouldn't mark-up. But I do think it can cause a seller to press harder for certain products to be sold, not necessarily because they're the best, but because they have greater profit margins.

This is not the case in the majority of good veterinary practices.

Sweeping generalisations will deter people from taking their vet's advice as most posters here seem to have a negative attitude to their vet's advice regarding feeding.

Personally I cannot get over the food safety risks of having raw chicken/ meat in a household with young or old in it.
You make take all the precautions you like in preparation but your dog will have those bacteria on his muzzle/mouth to put in his water bowl, on the floor, table and especially your hands and face.

And before I get spammed I am not talking about the dedicated BARFERs with extra freezers and prep areas I am talking about the people who will feed raw 'as the Internet told them and sure what do vets know anyway!'

TooManyDogs

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Personally I cannot get over the food safety risks of having raw chicken/ meat in a household with young or old in it.
You make take all the precautions you like in preparation but your dog will have those bacteria on his muzzle/mouth to put in his water bowl, on the floor, table and especially your hands and face

Do you actually honestly think that dried food is clean??? Here's a link to an article about the risk of humans contracting salmonella from dry dog food, and the advise from the CDC is to be extremely careful around dry dog food and not to feed them in the kitchen and wash your hands.
http://www.livescience.com/8439-dry-pet-food-linked-human-salmonella-outbreak.html

So if your dry fed dog has dry food dust/bits on their muzzle then they're equally a potential source of illness as any raw fed dog.

Cleanliness is paramount for ANY type of dog food, not just raw food

fatmammycat

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Personally I cannot get over the food safety risks of having raw chicken/ meat in a household with young or old in it.
You make take all the precautions you like in preparation but your dog will have those bacteria on his muzzle/mouth to put in his water bowl, on the floor, table and especially your hands and face.'

This makes no sense at all, don't you have raw food in most kitchens anyway? How do you make dinner?
It's not hard to prepare raw food, or weigh it and freeze it. It's not hard to wash your hands afterwards. As to bacteria, I don't even want to know what bacteria my dog might have on his body/mouth from just being a dog. Between eating cat poo and his love of running through the slimiest bogs he can find I imagine it's high up there.

DBB

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

This is not the case in the majority of good veterinary practices.

Sweeping generalisations will deter people from taking their vet's advice as most posters here seem to have a negative attitude to their vet's advice regarding feeding.

Sorry Lizard Moon, but I simply don't accept that many vets don't routinely push the foods with the biggest profit margins! My experience, which is more widespread than most, suggests otherwise.
I have worked with hundreds of owners whose vets advised them to feed Hill's, and lo and behold! The vets are also the main agents for Hill's!
There are infinitely better dry foods out there which, if vets were really primarily concerned for the dog's diet and not profits, the vets would send owners to the internet to buy. Hill's is, quite frankly, a second rate, cereal-filled, meat-poor, additive rich diet. I think some vets have a bit of a cheek telling dog owners that this stuff is better for their carnivorous pet than one of the higher-quality, meatier, cereal-free dry foods. You know and I know, dogs cannot digest cereals, at all. So why, why do vets across the country insist on selling such cereal-rich schlock to owners for vastly inflated prices?
They know owners trust them... And will buy the food they're told to. Truth is, Hill's contains no more or less than a cheap bag of supermarket dog food, but vets sell it for €50 to €70+! At least twice the price, probably more, than the same sized bag of Pedigree or similar.
So no, your assertion that many vets do not have profit from dog food sales very high up on their priority list simply does not ring true in reality. The assertion that I'm making sweeping generalisations is untrue and unfair, I'm basing my opinion on having worked with hundreds, actually thousands of dog owners in the past decade.... It is a very, very rare event for me to meet an owner whose vet (a) did not insist they feed dry because it's "best for their dog" (please read the mountain of evidence refuting this in the journals), and (b) did not then sell them a demonstrably 2nd-rate food, usually Hill's, sometimes RC, sometimes Burns, sometimes others.
Not one single vet I know or have heard of sells the demonstrably meatier, low-carb/low cereal dry food options. The mark up is nowhere near as good for these as it is for the 2nd-string dry food though!

Lizard_Moon

Well I knew I would be attacked

One salmonella outbreak in a USA plant in 2006 linked to flavourings, one from someone claiming to work with 1000s of dog owners- not involved in dog food sales DBB???

FatMammyCat- go to the FSAI ( food safety authority of Ireland) read up on the dangers of raw chicken. Salmonella, campylobacter etc. Not all bacteria are the same. I mentioned households with young and old in them, people with possible compromised immune systems.

Pet food is fine for most family pets. From what I see those pets are more likely to die from being let loose in traffic than any possible or imagined side effect from dry food from any manufacturer.

boomerang

Totally agree with DBB on the poor quality of Hills' food. It's no better than any of the supermarket brands. The fact it is sold in vets and has the word 'science' in the name dupes people into thinking it must be really good! They must have a HUGE marketing budget that whacks up the price of their products, because the ingredients they use are mostly waste products from other food industries and cost them next to nothing. The prescription foods are convenient but in most cases if you have time you can create a diet of home-prepared meals for your doglet that meets the requirements for their particular affliction and with far better quality ingredients. (With the exception of hepatic disease, where the dietary requirements are more complex than say, diabetes or renal disease.)

For example, if you want a right shock, look up what the ingredients in Hills' weight reduction food "r/d" actually are. Sure your dog will lose weight on this food but they may as well be eating aeroboard.

fatmammycat

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Well I knew I would be attacked





FatMammyCat- go to the FSAI ( food safety authority of Ireland) read up on the dangers of raw chicken. Salmonella, campylobacter etc. Not all bacteria are the same. I mentioned households with young and old in them, people with possible compromised immune systems.
Pet food is fine for most family pets. From what I see those pets are more likely to die from being let loose in traffic than any possible or imagined side effect from dry food from any manufacturer.

I don't see how you were attacked at all. I assume if you don't store raw food correctly it's a danger to all. Don't most people refrigerate raw meat?

Nobody said all bacteria were the same, but precaution from missue rather is.

Re your last point, most people can live happily on junk food until they get older, then show obvious signs that their diet was not the best for them: dogs are carnivores, their physical structure says so, it is not 'imagined' to think they might do better on a meat/bone/corpse based diet.

DBB

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Well I knew I would be attacked

One salmonella outbreak in a USA plant in 2006 linked to flavourings, one from someone claiming to work with 1000s of dog owners- not involved in dog food sales DBB???

You weren't "attacked" LM, this is a discussion forum, and what you said is being questioned, just as you are questioning other posters.

I don't know why you aimed the salmonella outbreak/flavorings comment at me, my post did not address the salmonella issue at all. I think you're mixing me up with someone else.

Do I work in dog food sales? Lol. Not at all. Never did. And don't ever intend to!
My attitude to dog food is based on a lot of research, experience, and having to have an objective, professional eye on the whole issue. I don't "claim" to have worked with so many dog owners, I HAVE worked with so many!
Nevertheless, I still don't know what point you're trying to make... Unless you've mixed me up with someone else!

DBB

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Pet food is fine for most family pets. From what I see those pets are more likely to die from being let loose in traffic than any possible or imagined side effect from dry food from any manufacturer.

Imagined side effect? Imagined? Aw c'mon LM! It's this head in the sand, taking the food company's word as gossip that really grinds my gears. Vets owe it to their customers to get up to speed on nutrition and feeding, instead of blindly following the bidding of the pet food manufacturers. Look what happened with cat food, for goodness sake! Vets, and consequently owners, blindly feeding their cats nutritionally deficient schlock, nobody questioning it because, sure doesn't IAMS (or whoever) say it's best for your cat? What an about-face happened there, huh? Oops.
And yet, still, it seems to me that vets continue to blindly be led by the dog food manufacturers without once questioning something as simple as why are these companies insisting that cereals are required to be fed in huge daily doses to carnivores?
To a child studying junior cert science, this would make no sense. So why on earth should it be accepted as gossip by highly trained vets? I just can not understand this!

I know vets are busy etc, but really, you should get reading the research papers LM. You know, must know as a scientist, that the independent research trumps what the food reps say hands down.

Lizard_Moon

TooManyDogs wrote: »

Do you actually honestly think that dried food is clean??? Here's a link to an article about the risk of humans contracting salmonella from dry dog food, and the advise from the CDC is to be extremely careful around dry dog food and not to feed them in the kitchen and wash your hands.
http://www.livescience.com/8439-dry-pet-food-linked-human-salmonella-outbreak.html

DBB this is the link regarding salmonella in the US in 2006 in flavouring, I wasn't mixed up at all.

I am not saying expensive pet foods are better than cheaper.

But most have a closed ingredient list which doesn't change with each batch so for some dogs it is better.

We don't just stock the main brands we have a range.
Personally the quality of the poops is great on hills, so easy to pick up.

How much statistically reliable independent research has been carried out bearing in mind that animal experimentation would be unacceptable?
Very few papers would be peer reviewed and carry the numbers of dogs studied to be conclusive. This issue is also argued at veterinary level.

DBB

That is a link posted by Too Many Dogs, not me. So your reply should presumably have been aimed at TMD, because I never brought up the subject of salmonella, so don't understand why you'd direct anything about it to me.

Closed ingredient list which doesn't change? I have had major pet food companies write to me to tell me my new bag of dog food, which I'd had my dog on for some time, was upsetting his tummy because there are different batches of cereal/meat/veg/whatever being used all the time, according to supply. I have also regularly seen this explained on their websites. So I don't accept that either.

Is quality of poop the real, scientific test of quality? Hmmm. Many dogs I know do pick-uppable poops... The fact that they're doing monstrous ones several times a day with all the cereal they've been fed would concern me more... But that's an aside, because I don't believe for one second that the fact that poo can be picked up indicates that the food is nutritionally sound. I am, quite frankly, aghast that you used this line as a justification for why dry food is good! Is that a line the customers get too?

I am also aghast at your comment re animal experimentation! Every single pet food producer does animal experimentation... How else are they going to test for sensitivity, palatability etc? I'm sure that these days, given far stricter ethical requirements, the animals being tested come to no harm, but don't make out that the multinationals who own the pet food companies are not themselves using widespread animal experimentation. I'm aghast because I assumed you'd have known this.

I asked you to go read the journals precisely because they contain papers which are independent, and peer-reviewed (not sure at all why you say they wouldn't be... That's the whole point of publishing them in the first place!)

Dogsfirst.ie has an extensive list of references to such papers. It doesn't seem to be working at the min, but I believe it's to be remedied in the near future. Maybe have a look at those when they're back up and running.

andreac

Both Hills and Royal Canin, the supposedly great foods have both caused severe Hot Spots with my Rottie so i will never feed him those brands again and i never recommend them to anyone. I also know several other dog owners whos dogs have severe reactions when being fed Hills and Royal Canin so go figure.

If i could afford to feed and if i had the room to store the Raw diet i would. Every so often i can get a batch of raw chicken pieces, wings etc and i feed that to my dogs along with other raw foods.

The difference in their poo's is unreal, hardly anything comes out, so just goes to show you how much of the dry food is actually digested when it comes out the other end!!

TooManyDogs

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

DBB this is the link regarding salmonella in the US in 2006 in flavouring, I wasn't mixed up at all.

You were mixing up who posted the link. I put up the link to show how easy it is to find salmonella poisoning linked to dry dog food from a simple google search. That wasn't an isolated case, here's another one from last year http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/05/us-usa-salmonella-dogfood-idUSBRE84407X20120505

Pet foods are recalled more regularily than you might think due to salmonella contaimination. I'm not saying feeding raw food isn't without it's risks but they're the same risks as feeding dry food, good food preparation hygiene should be adhered to at all times.

As fatmammycat said, dogs are happily cleaning their behinds, eating sh!te, rolling in god knows what, drinking out of filthy water so to assume that an old or young person is going to get sick from the dog's raw food diet is a little presumtious. My dogs are filthy little beasties, I wouldn't have it any other way, but I don't let them lick my face or my child's face, and I wash my hands before prepping food or eating, same goes for the child

Lizard_Moon

TooManyDogs wrote: »

You were mixing up who posted the link. I put up the link to show how easy it is to find salmonella poisoning linked to dry dog food from a simple google search. That wasn't an isolated case, here's another one from last year http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/05/us-usa-salmonella-dogfood-idUSBRE84407X20120505

Pet foods are recalled more regularily than you might think due to salmonella contaimination. I'm not saying feeding raw food isn't without it's risks but they're the same risks as feeding dry food, good food preparation hygiene should be adhered to at all times.

As fatmammycat said, dogs are happily cleaning their behinds, eating sh!te, rolling in god knows what, drinking out of filthy water so to assume that an old or young person is going to get sick from the dog's raw food diet is a little presumtious. My dogs are filthy little beasties, I wouldn't have it any other way, but I don't let them lick my face or my child's face, and I wash my hands before prepping food or eating, same goes for the child

TMD you are only putting up links of American outbreaks and the incidence is very low relative to the amount of dog food used. You can find salmonella outbreaks linked to every food stuff if you google hard enough.

Also I am talking about food borne pathogens not the ordinary bacteria found on your dog and in the environment.
I am sorry the chances of a food borne pathogen are much higher with raw meat than dry dog food.

Again some people will take care but many people won't follow the correct proceedure and the best way for them to stay safe is to minimise their exposure to the pathogens.

www.safefood.eu has good info on cross contamination.

http://http://www.safefood.eu/Food-Safety/Food-poisoning-allergies/Cross-Contamination.aspx

DBD- your last post much easier to read than the previous wall of text!

DBB

LM, if contradicting some of the misinformed stuff you've posted re dry dog food, profit margins etc means writing a wall of text, then I'll do it every time. I don't want readers here to take what you're saying without it being challenged. Maybe you're not used to people questioning your advice in relation to dog food in practice, but the fact is that vets in general (though not all) have perpetuated so much misinformation, it takes a wall of text to deal with it.
Truth is, you didn't effectively answer or refute one thing I said.
If telling me I've written a wall of text is the best counter you can come up with, well, I'll have to take it you can find no other way to counter what I've said!
Salmonella is a risk to anyone handling raw meat, esp chicken, but every time we clean up dog poo, change a baby's nappy, even go to the toilet ourselves, we risk being contaminated. There is also a risk with dry dog food. The risk is ever present in the environment. The truth is, if anyone who is handling raw food (whether feeding it to animals or humans), or eggs, or reptiles, or coming into contact with faeces, or dry dog food, is dumb enough not to be hygeinic about it, then they've only themselves to blame. But I think dog owners who've taken to feeding raw are copped on enough to exercise good hygiene!
I can't find any links to anyone catching salmonella from a raw fed dog's muzzle.

TooManyDogs

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

I am sorry the chances of a food borne pathogen are much higher with raw meat than dry dog food.

Except that there hasn't been a documented case of someone contracting food poisoning from raw dog food, even in America where there are alot more people feeding raw than here. All there is are a lot of sites saying that you MIGHT contract food poisoning so feed dry, which is funny considering there ARE documented cases of people contracting food poisoning from dry dog food.

Back to my origional point which is good food handling practices need to be maintained at all times when touching any dog food

fatmammycat

I'm sorry, but the notion one shouldn't feed raw on the off chance of bacterial infection seems a rather odd one to me. Hygiene is important in all food prep, we don't not use raw foods in our own diets on the off chance of contamination, why would it be any different for dogs?

DBB

DBB wrote: »

I can't find any links to anyone catching salmonella from a raw fed dog's muzzle.

Oops. I was mistaken.

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/doghealth01salmonella.pdf

http://rawfed.com/myths/zoonotic.html

Jelly2

I've been following the thread with interest, though some of it is beyond me. I have a question though, and would appreciate if anyone could help out.
My dog (8) has quite bad arthritis in one leg (she had an accident a few years ago, and the arthritis is a long-term result of the trauma, I'm told). She is getting injections every three months for this (sorry, I can't remember the name of these), but she doesn't get Arthri Aid, as my vet says that recent studies have shown this to be a placebo and of no real benefit. However, the vet has also recommended Hills Prescription Diet J/D for mobility, and I have been feeding my dog that for the past few months. Apparently, it has lots of the oils which help mobility and joints. But I'm concerned by the fact that lots of people here seem to be saying that Hills is not a good food (too much cereal etc), and am wondering if I should return to raw food or just a better dog food (I used to give her Burns). If I do, what can I do about ensuring that my dog gets sufficient oils to help her arthritis? I heard that cod liver oil is very good because of the omega content. Would a dessert spoon of that in her food be enough every day?