Motor Tax Increase in Budget 2013

Red Crow

So we all know our Motor Tax is going up next year with the government looking to raise over €300 Million which will raise the states intake from Motor Tax to €1.4 Billion. The biggest losers out of all this will be the drivers of the 'environmentally friendly' cars. This hike is most likely to only affect owners of newer low emission vehicles but there is also the likely possibility that there may be an increase of tax across the board. I do agree with bringing the newer low emission vehicles into higher tax bands but do you think that if there is any increase in Motor Tax it may start putting people off the road especially with the increasing cost of fuel?

I don't think there is going to be a mass exporting of cars or anything silly like that but I do reckon that it could be the final nail in the coffin when people will have to consider the new property tax and many other proposed hikes in their expenses from next year.

Do you think this measure will simply put some people off the road? I think it just might put a few people off buying new cars in 2013 and it think it could be very counter productive for the motor vehicle industry.

dave1982

They know we need cars and they know we have to tax them and they know we must put fuel in the car.


They know they have us over a barrel only difference is that they will be ****ing us without Vaseline

Max Power1

What should be done is increase the fcuk out of Band A & B cars on the new system, 154 p/a is too low motor tax to be paying on any car, let alone the 520d!

But I expect 5-10% on the CC system and a little more on the CO2 ones.

Green Diesel

I've put my car off the road for 4 months to save ~220 in motor tax, ~800 in petrol, 80 in parking and ~150 insurance.

Replaced all of the above with 240 in bus fares to commute. Have a fixed low income at the moment so really can't justify the added expense of running a car year round. I'll probably tax and insure it from November for the next year though. Apparently there are plans to make you pay a fee to take it off the road! Jokers.

L-M

I've heard a few people say that's they're going to introduce a flat rate across the board, Mini or Merc?

Any light on this?

Anan1

Eli Manning wrote: »

Do you think this measure will simply put some people off the road? I think it just might put a few people off buying new cars in 2013 and it think it could be very counter productive for the motor vehicle industry.

What's good for the motor industry is often very different from what's good for the country as a whole.

Limerick man wrote: »

I've heard a few people say that's they're going to introduce a flat rate across the board, Mini or Merc?

Any light on this?

I wouldn't hold my breath for that one.

Green Diesel

Limerick man wrote: »

I've heard a few people say that's they're going to introduce a flat rate across the board, Mini or Merc?

Any light on this?

I think someone on here did the calculations to figure out what that would be. Would result in a considerable fluctuation in used car values. Couldn't see it happening.

L-M

No, twas worth a try.

blingrhino

Max Power1 wrote: »

What should be done is increase the fcuk out of Band A & B cars on the new system, 154 p/a is too low motor tax to be paying on any car, let alone the 520d!

But I expect 5-10% on the CC system and a little more on the CO2 ones.

and your reason is.......

Kevvv

blingrhino wrote: »

and your reason is.......

Pretty obvious if you ask me.. More revenue

MadYaker

In fairness paying 154 quid p/a on a €50,000 car (520d) is ridiculous.

Green Diesel

MadYaker wrote: »

In fairness paying 154 quid p/a on a €50,000 car (520d) is ridiculous.

Yeah but how much of that 50k was VRT?

Atomic Pineapple

Green Diesel wrote: »

Yeah but how much of that 50k was VRT?

We're talking about motor tax here though not VRT?

ShadowHearth

Environmentaly friendly cars and their owners can go up their own holes. Even if 1% of people who bought new cars and were thinking about environment, then it would be a massive massive number. Everyone bought those "environmentally friendly scrap" only, because of low tax bracket. How Enviromentaly friendly those cars are is a different story.
I liked idea of one bracket for all type of cars. This way it would be fair. Those who are in Environmentaly friendly cars will still do their job and will still need to pay less fuel to go around. All who like fuel guzzlers will pay more anyway at the pump.

I don't expect anything ground breaking. Just usual "more tax on everything!!!" then we all rant a wee bit, bend over after some time and in the end die little bit inside.

Green Diesel

Green Diesel wrote: »

Yeah but how much of that 50k was VRT?

...much the same as it was on 2007 models.

Drummerboy08

What really sickened me earlier this year was having to pay €1600 to tax an 18 year old car, barely worth the value of a years tax.

Had it been a more reasonable figure I'd have taxed it, but instead I sold it. The car is now off the road for good afaik, and the government got no income at all from it.

I'd like to see the figures for the amount of cars untaxed on the road at the minute. If people were encouraged to tax these cars by having lower rates, would the revenue intake actually be higher compared to increasing the rates and putting more people off the road?

H3llR4iser

The idea of a 50k € BMW paying the same amount of tax of a Fiesta is just silly; However, I cannot see any way of hitting luxury cars that fall into the A and B bands without hurting the owners of little runarounds. I guess there will just be a blanket increase across the whole spectrum.

H3llR4iser

H3llR4iser wrote: »

......I cannot see any way of hitting luxury cars that fall into the A and B bands without hurting the owners of little runarounds. ..........

There aren't many 2.0 little runarounds about :pac:

Francie Barrett

Just abolish road tax and put 2-3 cent on the price of a litre.

dar83

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I'd like to see the figures for the amount of cars untaxed on the road at the minute. If people were encouraged to tax these cars by having lower rates, would the revenue intake actually be higher compared to increasing the rates and putting more people off the road?

I would imagine you've hit the nail on the head there. Of course there are some people that will try and never pay Motor Tax but that's the same with anything like that. They'll chance getting away with it until they get caught and sure if it's longer than 3 months without getting caught then they'll probably still save money based on the impound fee, fine etc... compared to the tax cost for 3 months (especially if they drive anything larger than the absolutely monstrous(!!!) 2L bracket).

I know if there was a flat fee across the board there would be a lot of people that would pay the tax, even for just knowing it's fair and level across the board. If you then drive more or have a car that burns more fuel, you pay more tax via the fuel you use. If you drive little or have a wiener mobile, you'll not pay as much. But everyone paying the same fee year in year out for the privilege of owning a car (let's be honest that's all Motor Tax is really) no matter what car they drive is definitely a dream some of us have. Just a shame it'll never actually happen.

Sure why charge the nice new shiny 520d drivers more than a 10 year old 1.4L Golf... In fact yes, the BMW drivers should pay less than half of that!

Padraig Mor

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Just abolish road tax and put 2-3 cent on the price of a litre.

Abolishing motor tax would result in an extra 30 - 50 cent per litre on fuel, depending on whose figures you use.

Padraig Mor

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

What really sickened me earlier this year was having to pay €1600 to tax an 18 year old car, barely worth the value of a years tax.

Had it been a more reasonable figure I'd have taxed it, but instead I sold it. The car is now off the road for good afaik, and the government got no income at all from it.

I'd like to see the figures for the amount of cars untaxed on the road at the minute. If people were encouraged to tax these cars by having lower rates, would the revenue intake actually be higher compared to increasing the rates and putting more people off the road?

This. I genuinely believe that the government would INCREASE their overall tax take (especially from fuel) by lowering the cost of motor tax for large engined cars. I'm saying that as someone who drives a 3 litre car and am considering getting rid of it as I've had my fill of €1400 tax per year at this stage.

seamus

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Abolishing motor tax would result in an extra 30 - 50 cent per litre on fuel, depending on whose figures you use.

Great.

At last it would be a fair system where the users pay.

bazz26

MadYaker wrote: »

In fairness paying 154 quid p/a on a €50,000 car (520d) is ridiculous.

Yes but what some people seem to overlook is that the guy who paid €50k for that new car also paid a fair chunk in VAT and VRT, these are taxes too.

Compare that to the amount say the guy with his 10 year old 2.0 litre car pays annually in motor tax so the guy who bought the €50k car actually contributes more overall so the notion that the guy paying €160 in motor tax is getting some sort of unfair tax break doesn't wash with me. At the end of the day it all goes into the same pot but the amount of motor tax seems to be a sticking issue for alot of people depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

Mr Simpson

Limerick man wrote: »

I've heard a few people say that's they're going to introduce a flat rate across the board, Mini or Merc?

Any light on this?

Using very basic calculations (Motor tax revenue(2011) / Number of Private registered vehicles(2008)), I worked out that for revenue to stay the same, the tax would be over €500. Obviously this isn't very accurate, some cars paying vintage tax, etc.

dar83

bazz26 wrote: »

Yes but what some people seem to overlook is that the guy who paid €50k for that new car also paid a fair chunk in VAT and VRT, these are taxes too.

Compare that to the amount say the guy with his 10 year old 2.0 litre car pays annually in motor tax so the guy who bought the €50k car actually contributes more overall so the notion that the guy paying €160 in motor tax is getting some sort of unfair tax break doesn't wash with me. At the end of the day it all goes into the same pot but the amount of motor tax seems to be a sticking issue for alot of people depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

But 10 years ago the VAT + VRT were paid to much the same level on the 2L car...

The new car owner hasn't paid much more now than he would have back then (obviously there is a difference, but not in the range of 3 times as much). Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the yearly tax bill for both cars.

Iwannahurl

Green Diesel wrote: »

I've put my car off the road for 4 months to save ~220 in motor tax, ~800 in petrol, 80 in parking and ~150 insurance.

Replaced all of the above with 240 in bus fares to commute.

That's smart.

Green Diesel wrote: »

Apparently there are plans to make you pay a fee to take it off the road!

That's evil, if it's merely an attempt to make tax prisoners of motorists.

Mr Simpson

Iwannahurl wrote: »

That's evil. Especially if it's merely an attempt to make tax prisoners of motorists.

In fairness, they were only talking about a small fee to cover admin costs on paperwork.

Padraig Mor

seamus wrote: »

Great.

At last it would be a fair system where the users pay.

I agree. Just correcting the common notion that motor tax could be replaced by "a few cent" on fuel. I'd also be including 3rd party insurance in fuel, too. There are also major cost savings involved - most motor tax offices could be closed, etc. The collection system is also in place already, in the form of fuel duty - simply increase it. It's easy to do, but the political will is not there to do so.

Iwannahurl

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I agree. Just correcting the common notion that motor tax could be replaced by "a few cent" on fuel. I'd also be including 3rd party insurance in fuel, too. There are also major cost savings involved - most motor tax offices could be closed, etc. The collection system is also in place already, in the form of fuel duty - simply increase it. It's easy to do, but the political will is not there to do so.

Why do you suppose the political will is not there? Genuine question, btw.

Is there any other country where motor tax has been replaced in that way, and what is their fuel price per litre?

have2flushtwice

in my case, (approx numbers)
i pay 650 p.a on tax. 1.9 diesel.
50 euro a week on diesel.
1.55 a litre.
52 weeks
so i pay
50*52=€2600 pa on diesel.

putting the road tax onto diesel will equate to the following:
2600+650=€3250 for diesel and road tax.

2600/1.55 = 1677litres of diesel used p.a.

3250/1677= €1.93 per litre of diesel.
padraig Mor and Seamus, your numbers are bang on.

petrol prices will be similar figures, estimate 30-50 cent per litre also. dont be fooled with 3-5 cent estmates.

However, when i go to the filling staton with my boat and stick 90 litres in it for the day, why should i pay road tax in the price?
or my cruiser which takes 2300 litres of diesel, and it never sees the road?
Or my motor bike, for that matter. or my lawnmower and strimmer, or my generator, and so on. For this reason they will not run with it. because the govt cannot control it.

Padraig Mor

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why do you suppose the political will is not there? Genuine question, btw.

Because the general public would be unable to comprehend that many of them would be better off under such a system.

Is there any other country where motor tax has been replaced in that way, and what is their fuel price per litre?

Several, AFAIK. To the best of my knowledge, Australia and/or New Zealand also include 3rd party insurance as well (so you do not need to buy insurance, unless you require comprehensive) - no idea of their fuel cost though.

The Mulk

seamus wrote: »

Great.

At last it would be a fair system where the users pay.

Garages up the North would make a killing, along with fuel launderers, that's one of the reasons the government haven't seriously considered the idea. About 20 years ago would have been the time to change the current system to petrol usage system.

Drummerboy08

I don't think we'll ever see motor tax integrated into fuel for the simple reason that someone needs to show some intelligence to implement it.

Even a flat fee would make more sense compared to the current system. As I said, I have a feeling the overall tax intake would increase if the cost of taxing a vehicle actually came down a bit.

The government need to encourage people to spend money, not to save it. If I had a customer who was in two minds about buying a car from me, would I decrease the price or make it more attractive for them to say yes, or would I simply ask for more money and drive them away? It's the same principle for motor tax. Make it more attractive for people to tax their car and your tax intake will increase.

It's not rocket science yet Kenny and co seem to be finding it difficult to understand.

Drummerboy08

The Mulk wrote: »

Garages up the North would make a killing, along with fuel launderers, that's one of the reasons the government haven't seriously considered the idea. About 20 years ago would have been the time to change the current system to petrol usage system.

Would the revenue lost to the north and to launderers be smaller or larger to the revenue currently lost by people not paying motor tax in its current format?

Drummerboy08

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

.........

The government need to encourage people to spend money, not to save it. If I had a customer who was in two minds about buying a car from me, would I decrease the price or make it more attractive for them to say yes, or would I simply ask for more money and drive them away? It's the same principle for motor tax. Make it more attractive for people to tax their car and your ax intake will increase.

It's not rocket science yet Kenny and co seem to be finding it difficult to understand.

The vast majority of motorists tax their car, lots don't no doubt, most 2008 on yokes are in low bands, numbers wise the biggest revenue generator is to increase them, a minority of folks would run a guzzler if the tax was cheaper imo.

The Mulk

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Would the revenue lost to the north and to launderers be smaller or larger to the revenue currently lost by people not paying motor tax in its current format?

I think the 'fear' they have is the perceived damage the new system would do. Garages closing down after x number of years in border counties, queue's 1/2 mile long outside garages in the north. Irish people putting money into the UK tax system. The furor a couple of years back when there was traffic jams going into Newry.
I'm in favour of a petrol usage road tax, especially if some of it went into an insurance fund. But if petrol jumped overnight to €2:20 a litre Joe Duffy would go into meltdown.
I also think marked diesel should be scrapped, maybe allow a rebate system. That would wipe-out fuel launderers immediately

Welease

seamus wrote: »

Great.

At last it would be a fair system where the users pay.

Why should heavier users pay more, when the taxation is not ring fenced for motor based services? (there is already a considerable element of VAT taxation added to fuel)

Very few of our taxes are based solely on consumption of services (apart from VAT), and there is no reason why motor taxation should be. The top % of income earners pay the vast majority of taxes in this country, and they don't consume an equal % of services that they pay for.. motor taxation is no different in that relation.

Drummerboy08

RoverJames wrote: »

The vast majority of motorists tax their car, lots don't no doubt, most 2008 on yokes are in low bands, numbers wise the biggest revenue generator is to increase them, a minority of folks would run a guzzler if the tax was cheaper imo.

I just had a quick walk around the car park next door for a little survey..... out of 42 cars there, 17 were out of tax since the end of July or further. I'm not saying that representative of the entire country, but its a good measure imo. Nearly half the cars were un taxed.

The Mulk wrote: »

I think the 'fear' they have is the perceived damage the new system would do. Garages closing down after x number of years in border counties, queue's 1/2 mile long outside garages in the north. Irish people putting money into the UK tax system. The furor a couple of years back when there was traffic jams going into Newry.
I'm in favour of a petrol usage road tax, especially if some of it went into an insurance fund. But if petrol jumped overnight to €2:20 a litre Joe Duffy would go into meltdown.
I also think marked diesel should be scrapped, maybe allow a rebate system. That would wipe-out fuel launderers immediately

You've just given yourself a solution to a problem you've thrown up, thats the problem of launderers done with.

As for people going up North, it will only effect the border counties, and sher they don't count....

(Joking)

Big Nasty

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I just had a quick walk around the car park next door for a little survey..... out of 42 cars there, 17 were out of tax since the end of July or further. I'm not saying that representative of the entire country, but its a good measure imo. Nearly half the cars were un taxed.

In Dublin?:eek:

I would have expected that outside The Pale but not in Da Shmoke!

Drummerboy08

MCMLXXV wrote: »

In Dublin?:eek:

I would have expected that outside The Pale but not in Da Shmoke!

Yep. Would be interesting to see how many of those will be taxed from the first of October.

the culture of deference

RoverJames wrote: »

...much the same as it was on 2007 models.

No, VRT on a new Band B 520d series is only 16% vrt, on top of Vat inclusive price

Pre 2007 models it was 30% vrt on top of Vat inclusive price

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Several, AFAIK. To the best of my knowledge, Australia and/or New Zealand also include 3rd party insurance as well (so you do not need to buy insurance, unless you require comprehensive) - no idea of their fuel cost though.

Yea, in WA once car was rego'd you had 3rd party cover, you could buy top up ins for 200 bucks a year.

Fuel was 70 cents a litre when I was there

The Mulk

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I just had a quick walk around the car park next door for a little survey..... out of 42 cars there, 17 were out of tax since the end of July or further. I'm not saying that representative of the entire country, but its a good measure imo. Nearly half the cars were un taxed.



You've just given yourself a solution to a problem you've thrown up, thats the problem of launderers done with.

As for people going up North, it will only effect the border counties, and sher they don't count....

(Joking)

I remember a while a go, some TD was from Monaghan (or somewhere) was on TodayFM ranting and raving about this proposal, and Conor Vaughnan was agreeing with him about the lost revenue to the UK.

I've never understood the point of marked diesel. I remember seeing a checkpoint for the first time when I was about 12, trying to catch out vans using it. I was thinking "who dreamed that idea up"- police on the road trying to catch people using the farmers 'special' fuel

Drummerboy08

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I just had a quick walk around the car park next door for a little survey..... out of 42 cars there, 17 were out of tax since the end of July or further. I'm not saying that representative of the entire country, but its a good measure imo. Nearly half the cars were un taxed.





....()

... That's hardly a good measure in fairness. 17 out of 42 being described as almost half is laughable, you're 9 short of half, 9 is over half of 17. Almost funny considering what you said about Kenny and co.

RoverJames

RoverJames wrote: »

... That's hardly a good measure in fairness. 17 out of 42 being described as almost half is laughable, you're 9 short of half, 9 is over half of 17. Almost funny considering what you said about Kenny and co.

lol, thought it was 52
chuckle chuckle

not a hope that's representative of anything tbh

jsd1004

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Abolishing motor tax would result in an extra 30 - 50 cent per litre on fuel, depending on whose figures you use.

Just do it and leave people choose how much tax they pay and free to choose what ever car/engine they like.

dar83

RJ.

Borderfox

Lexus GS 450h is in tax band B!! €225 per year. 3.4 litre engine.. 2004 1.8 €592

Iwannahurl

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Because the general public would be unable to comprehend that many of them would be better off under such a system.

Several, AFAIK. To the best of my knowledge, Australia and/or New Zealand also include 3rd party insurance as well (so you do not need to buy insurance, unless you require comprehensive) - no idea of their fuel cost though.

I'm not sure of federal car tax policies in Oz, but at least one state, New South Wales, has a Motor Vehicle Weight Tax:

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/feesconcessions/weighttax2010.html

As for fuel costs, in Melbourne petrol is currently AUD$1.30-1.60 (€1.04-1.28) per litre.

http://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/Internet/Primary/my+car/advice+_+information/fuel/petrol+prices

have2flushtwice wrote: »

However, when i go to the filling staton with my boat and stick 90 litres in it for the day, why should i pay road tax in the price?
or my cruiser which takes 2300 litres of diesel, and it never sees the road?
Or my motor bike, for that matter. or my lawnmower and strimmer, or my generator, and so on. For this reason they will not run with it. because the govt cannot control it.

Perhaps the main challenge would be to convince people that they should pay "road" tax on their fuel when filling up their boat engine, lawnmower, strimmer or generator.

galwaytt

RoverJames wrote: »

... That's hardly a good measure in fairness. 17 out of 42 being described as almost half is laughable, you're 9 short of half, 9 is over half of 17. Almost funny considering what you said about Kenny and co.

....well, on Paddy's Day this year, we had a long walk to the event, along some R roads lined with parked cars, and I made a point of looking at the discs on the windscreens, and from memory..........

1. All the low CO2 (08 and onwards...) cars were taxed. At €104/154 you'd fully expect them too.
2. On the whole, I think 1/3 of the cars were out of tax.
3. Of the cars out of tax, most were out by a fair few months: I mean, not just the month gone past, but 4/5 + months.

Putting up road tax for a segment of the market that isn't/can't/won't pay it, is pointless. Ignore the why's/wherefore's, but if people aren't paying €600 tax on 10+yr old 1.9 Diesel Galaxies, then there not going to pay €600 + and increase, either.

Why not be fair, lower the tax to a reasonable rate (I'd suggest halving it), and then the level of compliance would go way up.

There again, who am I talking about - politicians ? As drivers of the low CO2 cars themselves, they don't give a **** how much our road tax is, so they're not going to stick their neck out for us, are they ? :mad:

blastman

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Because the general public would be unable to comprehend that many of them would be better off under such a system.

Several, AFAIK. To the best of my knowledge, Australia and/or New Zealand also include 3rd party insurance as well (so you do not need to buy insurance, unless you require comprehensive) - no idea of their fuel cost though.

Around the same as ours, at least when I was there last a couple of years ago. They again, they probably don't charge the ludicrously high duty on fuel (plus the VAT) that we do.