RTE Firefighters overkill

Capri

Just looking at 'Firefighters' on RTE, RTA on the N81, car rearended with just slight panel damage and they go and chop the roof and doors off it :eek::eek:

I know I got rearended with no damage and my neck hurt but if they started chopping my pride and joy no matter what injuries I'd tell them where to go :mad:

It'd be another matter if the body was buckled and doors wouldn't open, but a little fender damage and they turn it into a beach buggy

CharlieCroker

Someone complains of neck/back injury, they'll immobilise them and remove anything in their way as a matter of procedure.

Car can be replaced, your spinal chord can't.

seven_eleven

Someone complaining of back pain will be taken out from upwards so the roof has to be removed to get the spinal board in. It wasnt too serious so a rapid extrication wasnt needed, where they would have taken him out from the side if they were in a hurry.

Capri

Four people in a car rearended - used to be an insurance scam going a while back but on the other hand, the N81 coming from Carlow etc, maybe a family coming up to do some shopping.

If it was an insurance scam and it was found out - bang goes their car as well as their 'claim' !!:D

kirving

Years ago, I was in a car which was rear ended resulting in a good deal more damage than was apparent in the car shown. I wasn't there so I obviously don't know, but it looked like complete overkill to me.

Not from the Firefighters, mind - they have to accept what the casualties are telling them and take as little risk as possible - but I think the passengers milked it a bit.

The funniest part, if you could call it that, was the FBD advert which was shown seconds after the N81 collision. Cars with far more damage, and an elderly woman out of the car discussing insurance details!

supermedic

Complete Horse****, 4 stable patients, most likely released from hospital after 20 minutes. Basic phtls or btls will tell you slow methodical extrication with a KED or similar device. No need for the roof off... on the other hand, if they were acting the maggot .... cut away lads... This type of carry on would never happened with a retained brigade, with a bit of common sense and no camera crew !!

Capri

This type of carry on would never happened with a retained brigade, with a bit of common sense and no camera crew !!

Didn't like to say it but my thoughts exactly - once there's a camera crew around the Press Office likes 'spectacular shots' :mad:

Muas Tenek

Basics - take the car from the person, not the person from the car. WE are all human beings and cars are metal, plastic and glass.
You can buy a new car but can you buy a new life?

rallye150flyer

supermedic wrote: »

Complete Horse****, This type of carry on would never happened with a retained brigade, with a bit of common sense and no camera crew !!

Are you trying to say retained brigades perform better than DFB at an RTC despite the fact that all DFB members are paramedics so therefore can make a call on medical grounds for the patients when many retained members cannot.(not trying to start DFB-vs-Everyone else war)

we weren't there the mecanism of injury could have been other vehical going 60kmph thus calling for delicate handling of patient thus get the roof off ! could have been something there to hamper using a KED point is none of us where there therefore all this should have done this or that is pure sh*t .

oh and it makes good TV which as people who follow the emergency services in ireland we should want to see more shows like this

kirving

Did it look like a 60kph crash, really? Bear in mind that Euro NCAP crash tests are performed at about that speed.

rallye150flyer

NO not to me but thats not to say it wasnt all im saying is the responders go with the info they had and there could have been info to indicate roof off best option the 60kmph was an example of such info not saying it was the info !

civdef

Complete Horse****, 4 stable patients, most likely released from hospital after 20 minutes. Basic phtls or btls will tell you slow methodical extrication with a KED or similar device.

Genuine question here, would you be happy that with 4 people in a car you're getting sufficient access to methodically KED and board these people without removing the roof?

sheehan12

it look to me it was a complete insurance scam to 4 to have complains about back pain if it was one or two it might be believable. a complains scam

supermedic

supermedic wrote: »

Complete Horse****, 4 stable patients, most likely released from hospital after 20 minutes. Basic phtls or btls will tell you slow methodical extrication with a KED or similar device. No need for the roof off... on the other hand, if they were acting the maggot .... cut away lads... This type of carry on would never happened with a retained brigade, with a bit of common sense and no camera crew !!

Capri wrote: »

Didn't like to say it but my thoughts exactly - once there's a camera crew around the Press Office likes 'spectacular shots' :mad:

I was at a single vehicle RTA, low speed, seat belt, no camera crew, no by-standers. The roof came off.

supermedic

Anyone like to show any evidence or research to show how that roof off method or vertical extrication method shown has any basis for 4 "patients" that clearly were not injured in any significant way. I Have used and requested the roof off hundreds of time over 20 odd years in the job, but please lets have a bit of reality here. if we were to do this for every mickey mouse RTC, half the cars in the country would convertible.
As i said earlier, if it was a few heads trying it on for insurance, i would go with the flow .

McWotever

First, it was the N81 at Glenview, AKA the Tallaght by-pass. Four patients in a seemingly undamaged car, and did anybody notice the lack of car that rear ended them?

Ye know that percentage of our motor policy that goes to the Motor Insurance Bureau? Yup, a bit of that is going to four very unconvincing scammers who know the procedures, and are still using a very outdated trick.

Will it be contested? Not a chance. But they are the most vulnerable in society after all.

mr.dunkey

McWotever wrote: »

First, it was the N81 at Glenview, AKA the Tallaght by-pass. Four patients in a seemingly undamaged car, and did anybody notice the lack of car that rear ended them?

Ye know that percentage of our motor policy that goes to the Motor Insurance Bureau? Yup, a bit of that is going to four very unconvincing scammers who know the procedures, and are still using a very outdated trick.

Will it be contested? Not a chance. But they are the most vulnerable in society after all.

If you look close the white ford transit van had front damage on it, not much,Low energy RTC

mr.dunkey

Capri wrote: »

Just looking at 'Firefighters' on RTE, RTA on the N81, car rearended with just slight panel damage and they go and chop the roof and doors off it :eek::eek:

I know I got rearended with no damage and my neck hurt but if they started chopping my pride and joy no matter what injuries I'd tell them where to go :mad:

It'd be another matter if the body was buckled and doors wouldn't open, but a little fender damage and they turn it into a beach buggy

I don't mean to offend any organizations...
As supermedic has said ,this was a low mechanism RTC, (small damage on car no lens broken and airbags not deployed)Ked and just normal extraction. Why go to all the trouble of cutting glass and doors,no need Ive done lots of extractions. In the phecc guide lines it doesn't state to call fire service every time a car gets a bump for a roof off extraction.
Where a patient is trapped yes cut them out, or bad access to unstable patient. These are far and few between.


A stable patient can be took out in less than 5 mins without cutting the car up.
Then the motor had to stay with the car, and road blocked off! what bull sh*t.
I would of got them out in the ambos down to tallaght the gardai moved the car off side and road opened.

These programmes are just highlighting the wrong things i think,The NAS paramedic doing c-spine on one patient while other two are just left. Come on. Either they all have a query spinal injury or they dont.

Capri

A stable patient can be took out in less than 5 mins without cutting the car up.
Then the motor had to stay with the car, and road blocked off! what bull sh*t.
I would of got them out in the ambos down to tallaght the gardai moved the car off side and road opened.

These programmes are just highlighting the wrong things i think,The NAS paramedic doing c-spine on one patient while other two are just left. Come on. Either they all have a query spinal injury or they dont.

It all looks a bit set up for the cameras - no wonder the councils are running out of money with the overkill on that job. As you say you would have cleared it up in 30mins and the road open again.
Wonder what the producers tell the 'actors' to do - "...make it look REALLY difficult lads, otherwise we'll have to hound ye till we get the shots WE want" ?? RTE ham it up again :mad:

McWotever

You weren't there, so you don't know the full story. Either was I.

Look at the link below and scroll down to Spinal Immobilisation see if you can answer all the questions given the information you had from the show. Bearing in mind that KED's (Extrication Devices) aren't always available.

http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Clinical%20Practice%20Guidelines/P%203rd%20Edition%20CPGs/P%20Section%206%20Trauma.pdf

And how exactly does it cost the council more whether the roof comes off or not? What has road closures to do with patient care?

Mycroft H

I thought KED's were CEN equipment. Am I wrong?

Capri

McWotever wrote: »

You weren't there, so you don't know the full story. Either was I.

Look at the link below and scroll down to Spinal Immobilisation see if you can answer all the questions given the information you had from the show. Bearing in mind that KED's (Extrication Devices) aren't always available.

http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Clinical%20Practice%20Guidelines/P%203rd%20Edition%20CPGs/P%20Section%206%20Trauma.pdf

And how exactly does it cost the council more whether the roof comes off or not? What has road closures to do with patient care?

Of course none of us know the full story, never stopped people having opinions in Ireland before though !

I'm just venturing a question about these formula shows, the boring 90% of these jobs wouldn't make people watch the shows so the producers have to spice it up by whatever means. Lets look at it this way, what percentage of people extracted on spinal boards actually have real spinal damage - 5-10% or lower ? Bet nobody has collected that data.

I heard of a girl who sneezed and ended up with a back problem so the spine IS a delicate thing, but can you imagine a tiny rear ender, first thing 4 men naturally would usually do is get out to see the damage - I cannot imagine 4 of them staying in the car without a communal cry of 'CLAIM' so that is costing everyone - the public pay for the fire service who used equipment/fuel to cut the car to bits, the public pay for the insurance that may pay out on the claim , the public pay for ......

mr.dunkey

Capri wrote: »

Of course none of us know the full story, never stopped people having opinions in Ireland before though !

I'm just venturing a question about these formula shows, the boring 90% of these jobs wouldn't make people watch the shows so the producers have to spice it up by whatever means. Lets look at it this way, what percentage of people extracted on spinal boards actually have real spinal damage - 5-10% or lower ? Bet nobody has collected that data.

I heard of a girl who sneezed and ended up with a back problem so the spine IS a delicate thing, but can you imagine a tiny rear ender, first thing 4 men naturally would usually do is get out to see the damage - I cannot imagine 4 of them staying in the car without a communal cry of 'CLAIM' so that is costing everyone - the public pay for the fire service who used equipment/fuel to cut the car to bits, the public pay for the insurance that may pay out on the claim , the public pay for ......

I wasn't there but know the crews involved.
Capri believe it or not the DFb do this all the time, they take the roof off most of their extractions not just for the cameras, in my opinon i would just rather extract them out if possible and get on with it.

It does cost the council more to extract, the DFB might not of been responded to such a slight RTC if they werent taking the calls. Outside areas of full fire services we normally extract patients ourselves, because thats what im trained to do.

Resceu247

Some of you sound like a bunch of politicians, the monet wasted, didnt need to have to do this and that, I would have done it this way...

Simple facts,

It was an RTA, low or high impact doesnt mater,
Patient's complain of back pain, if you attempt to move them and the pain gets worse you stop,
How do you then get the patient out,
Romove everything around them,

Any good Firefighter or a Paramedic on scene wouldnt give 2 ****s how much its gona cost either insurance companies or the government, they only care about their own duty of care to the patient,

If you removed the patient and took them to the hospital without taking full spinal procedures and the px then tells the A&E staff they had back pain, I'm sure they wouldnt be to happy,

For those saying I'd have used this or that peice of equipment, the trucks dont carry KED's and do you realise how many RTA's happen in the city every day, many of them with patients who have received lacerations and are bleeding, well there goes your single and only KED in the ambo off for decontamination,

For a forum that is supposed to be about emergency services personnel supporting and contributing to each other, theres alot of barstool managers ripping each other apart, its either a bit of jealousy or lack of experience,

Lastly do you really think the DFB needs to dress calls up for the cameras, when there doing on average 130,000 calls per year, FFS lads a bit of support for each other

kirving

I would have damaged the rear of the passat more if I had cycled into the back of it. The boot lid is a little deformed alright, but no damage apart fomr that. Not even a light broken.

There are procedures yes, but this kind of thing makes a mockery of them.

mr.dunkey

Resceu247 wrote: »

Some of you sound like a bunch of politicians, the monet wasted, didnt need to have to do this and that, I would have done it this way...

Simple facts,

It was an RTA, low or high impact doesnt mater,
Patient's complain of back pain, if you attempt to move them and the pain gets worse you stop,
How do you then get the patient out,
Romove everything around them,

Any good Firefighter or a Paramedic on scene wouldnt give 2 ****s how much its gona cost either insurance companies or the government, they only care about their own duty of care to the patient,

If you removed the patient and took them to the hospital without taking full spinal procedures and the px then tells the A&E staff they had back pain, I'm sure they wouldnt be to happy,

For those saying I'd have used this or that peice of equipment, the trucks dont carry KED's and do you realise how many RTA's happen in the city every day, many of them with patients who have received lacerations and are bleeding, well there goes your single and only KED in the ambo off for decontamination,

For a forum that is supposed to be about emergency services personnel supporting and contributing to each other, theres alot of barstool managers ripping each other apart, its either a bit of jealousy or lack of experience,

Lastly do you really think the DFB needs to dress calls up for the cameras, when there doing on average 130,000 calls per year, FFS lads a bit of support for each other

Rta low or high impact does matter, your looking for different injuries if were high speed,Want to get the PHTLS book out!

Jealousy or lack of experience,how about managing real high speed RTCs with little or no back up outside Dublin.
130,000 calls a year like the rest of the the ems world in New york or the uk, a high % are non emergency or don't need an intervention.

Anyone doing a realty programme is going to get criticism, weather its the gardai or fire services,

ratracer

'Knack-cidents' are the bane of my work life. They really, really bug the sh1t of me. Still wouldn't rush to judge anyone else's on scene call tho. If anything was sensationalised I'd say it was the big hullabaloo made out of a few metal containers on fire on a building site.

apc

mr.dunkey wrote: »

Rta low or high impact does matter, your looking for different injuries if were high speed,Want to get the PHTLS book out!

Jealousy or lack of experience,how about managing real high speed RTCs with little or no back up outside Dublin.
130,000 calls a year like the rest of the the ems world in New york or the uk, a high % are non emergency or don't need an intervention.

Anyone doing a realty programme is going to get criticism, weather its the gardai or fire services,

If I am ever in an RTC I dont want you coming near me with that attitude. A medics role is not to diagnose but to respond to symptoms. If a casualty complains of back pain it is a symptom and should be treated accordingly. Once you immobilise the head and/or put on a collar you are dealing with a suspected spinal injury.

Two medics cannot safely board a suspected spinal casualty from a car and they are foolish to try to. I have seen medics try to bend peoples necks while trying to extricate them through car door openings with the roof on.

The reason the roof is cut off is
1. It gives better and safer access to the casualty.
2. In the event of deterioration of the casualty it allows for safe rapid extrication
3. From a manual handling and health and safety point of view it is safer for the crews in attendence to extricate the casualty with roof and doors off.

supermedic

apc, You're clearly not a medic with statements like that. If its not the job of medics to diagnose, and I'm not sure thats completely correct, they must do more than respond to symptoms. The AP programme which is now in it's 7th year has turned out over 200 highly trained, intelligent, thinking practitioners who can think by themselves and use the benefit of training, experience and clinical judgement to initiate a huge range of interventions and medications.

I have yet to see any evidence produced here to suggest that the roof must come off for minor, low speed RTC's, where the patients are obviously not injured. Opinion is all well and good, but PHTLS, BTLS et al. clearly state that stable patients should be managed by the use of a KED like extrication device. In fact some recent papers suggested that those who complain of neck pain and are clearly not suffering any significant injury should be allowed self extricate from the vehicle.

Long boards are for rapid extrication and correctly used can be great, however they are completely over used because of the idea that they save time. If every tiny little shunt required a roof off.... the amount of time, money and wasted EMS/ED resources would make a bad situation even worse.

CB19Kevo

supermedic wrote: »

apc, You're clearly not a medic with statements like that. If its not the job of medics to diagnose, and I'm not sure thats completely correct, they must do more than respond to symptoms. The AP programme which is now in it's 7th year has turned out over 200 highly trained, intelligent, thinking practitioners who can think by themselves and use the benefit of training, experience and clinical judgement to initiate a huge range of interventions and medications.

I have yet to see any evidence produced here to suggest that the roof must come off for minor, low speed RTC's, where the patients are obviously not injured. Opinion is all well and good, but PHTLS, BTLS et al. clearly state that stable patients should be managed by the use of a KED like extrication device. In fact some recent papers suggested that those who complain of neck pain and are clearly not suffering any significant injury should be allowed self extricate from the vehicle.

Long boards are for rapid extrication and correctly used can be great, however they are completely over used because of the idea that they save time. If every tiny little shunt required a roof off.... the amount of time, money and wasted EMS/ED resources would make a bad situation even worse.

As i am sure you are aware there are many factors to consider in such an incident.
Are you indicating that the IC just make's the decision without a risk assessment and without P/AP input.
Even if the IC believed that it was very low risk to remove the casualty's without cutting the roof/door's/securing the vehicle why should he risk his career, the Career's of his crew and damage the DFB reputation if something was to go wrong.
Aswell as of course potentially risking damage to a casualty.
Some people are very quick to judge but we all have to follow CPG's and SOP's.. (Even if some of it is BS:rolleyes:)

supermedic

The world does not start and end with DFB, the vast majority of RTC's are very well managed by retained fire crews in partnership with NAS paramedics and advanced paramedics. In the vast majority of situations the SO will defer to the NAS crews about how the patient should come out. The vast majority of low impact shunts are managed without resorting to the roof off.... thank God for common sense