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School patronage

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    #2132
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Ah yes the old if you don't like the "public" system why don't you feck off and educate your kid at home or build your own school argument. Every parent is supposed to be a fully qualified primary and secondary teacher? Home schooling is a viable option in 2015?! Things are a bit too technical these days. It might have been viable in 1937 when you basically had to be able to read and maybe so sums to be considered to be "basically educated" and many people left school at 14.
    Not really; simply you can't claim you're obliged to use schools that you don't want to. There are other options, and the responsibility is your own. If you choose to hand that responsibilty over to someone else, you can hardly then complain that they're not doing it the way you'd like.
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Also it's not realistic to just keep subdividing and subdividing the school system with more and more specialised schools divided on religious grounds.
    I agree... ish. The State realistically can't pay to keep subdividing and subdividing the school system with more and more specialised schools divided on any grounds, but equally a single one size fits all school in the middle of the country isn't going to be suitable either. A compromise is the State pays for a number of schools which provide the education that a large proportion of parents want; which is close to what we have now, except the State managed to not pay the establishment cost of a lot of those schools.
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I don't think many sane people would accept that home schooling or build your own school as feasible alternative to an actual public education system. The UN didn't and I doubt the European courts would either.
    Maybe not, but they are entitled to choose those alternatives if they want. What they're not entitled to is a State provided public education for their children.
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I read the school rules recently and honestly, they're so obsolete they're laughable and nobody in officialdom seems to find anything unusual about them.
    I read them quite some time ago, and what sticks with me is how some parts are actually quite liberal for their time. For instance, a rule that no one ever seems to mention is Part 2 of Rule 69:
    2 (a) No pupil shall receive, or be present at, any religious instruction of which his parents or guardian disapprove.
    (b) The periods of formal religious instruction shall be fixed so as to facilitate the withdrawal of pupils to whom paragraph (a) of this section applies.
    As to whether anybody in officialdom seems to find anything unusual about them, I'd question whether anybody in officialdom pays them any attention at all. I've yet to hear an example of the Dept of Education inspecting a school and determining whether or not, in fact, a religious spirit informs and vivifies the whole school, have you?
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Honestly I think I will emigrate. I'm actually fed up to the back teeth with the religious obsessions and backwardness of this country. Sorry, but if this is Ireland I'm just not sure I'm welcome here. It's the fact that the majority of the population obviously think this situation is perfectly acceptable that makes me wonder if I actually share their point of view or want to live here anymore.
    Fair enough. It's a big world and there's lots to see.


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    #2133
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Gives up!

    No longer arguing point as it just turns circular!

    I completely, totally disagree with this.

    I feel like I and people like me are being excluded from access to public services very deliberately and it's just not really acceptable in what's supposed to be a relatively liberal society.

    It's absolutely church-state corporatism and an attempt to evangelise and gain extreme levels of social influence through embedding in state services.

    I really don't think it's acceptable or good enough to just keep ignoring it and I actually think the Irish state is a complete disappointment in this regard. It's quite happy to turn its back on a large number of its people and cowtow to private religious organisation.

    There are times you'd just get completely fed up living here. It's fairly obvious I'm not welcome and it's a non-subtle hint that I should emigrate.


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    #2134
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Gives up!

    No longer arguing point as it just turns circular!

    I completely, totally disagree with this.

    I feel like I and people like me are being excluded from access to public services very deliberately and it's just not really acceptable in what's supposed to be a relatively liberal society.

    It's absolutely church-state corporatism and an attempt to evangelise and gain extreme levels of social influence through embedding in state services.

    I really don't think it's acceptable or good enough to just keep ignoring it and I actually think the Irish state is a complete disappointment in this regard. It's quite happy to turn its back on a large number of its people and cowtow to private religious organisation.

    There are times you'd just get completely fed up living here. It's fairly obvious I'm not welcome and it's a non-subtle hint that I should emigrate.

    The evangelization of children in Irish schools and near necessity for them to have a Birth cert to gain entry to many schools (ie sign them up long before they have any say) is disgraceful and is surely a human right breach.

    So I wouldn't blame you for wanting to leave but let me tell you, fcuked if I'm leaving my home country! For all it's flaws I still love living here but I'll never fall in line and accept religious discrimination either, I'm gonna stick around and be a perpetual pain in the ass for those who think their God has a place in other people's lives!


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    #2135
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #2136
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,524 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I didn't see the need to pursue Count Me Out when it was on the go, but I regret that now.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2137
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    There should be some form of unbaptism for those that were signed up against their will.

    There should be but they'd probably just smugly tell you that 'it's only the record of an event that happened' or some gibberish along those lines, you see highly profitable cults hate losing members.

    Personally this issue doesn't really bother me but some people would rather be unbaptized (or whatever the correct term is) and should be allow to do so if they wish.


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    #2138
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Actually I wonder if under the Data Protection Act its failure to amend inaccurate information and holding personal data that is neither accurate nor serves any purpose.


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    #2139
    DK man
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭DK man


    lazygal wrote: »
    He also misses the point that it doesn't matter a damn how 'inclusive' a school is, if its religious indoctrination takes place throughout every facet of the school place and those who opt out or partake against their wishes have their rights violated.

    No - catholic schools have been welcoming all faiths and none for a very long time. Catholic parents want their children to be educated in an environment and ethos which enriches their children's lives from a Christian perspective. It's their rights to do this - we don't live in some sort of communist statelet. You are also free to join and set up a school or schools to suit your own system of values - and guess what - Catholics will be very happy for you to do that and won't try to scupper your efforts or won't be highly offended - no just get on with it


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    #2140
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,524 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Bottom of the enrolment policy is 'welcoming'? That's some extra-special logic you got there.

    And NOBODY has the right to use taxpayers' money to promote religion.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2141
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    See : this is what you're up against.

    Blind inability to even be aware of the enrolment policy problems, the "back of the bus" type approach, the lack of choice in most areas, the total impracticality of setting up more schools, the impossibility of getting state funding in many cases, the rules from the department that effectively ban non-deniominatial schools and require religion to be blended across the entire day (something never required in the earlier years of this state).

    We don't live or want to live in a communist state(let).

    What were living in is a quasi theocratic state that allows religious groups to not only run, but monopolise essential state services that are in realistic terms, a requirement to use.

    The notion that you can just build your own school or home school is utter nonsense and a total cop out.

    It's like how the education system in Alabama was fine .. Sure didn't the non-whites have the home schooling or going to their own kind of school instead?

    At least the Alabama scenario probably had local segregated schools. We've just got 90%+ one type of school for one religious community and a begrudging "tolerance" of others using it, IF there's space and they're not getting in the way!

    In many areas accessing an educate together school would mean needing to move house or drive a couple of hundred km a day.

    That's not "choice" it's social exclusion.


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    #2142
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    In our school Religion has more classes allocated to it than Science from 1st to 3rd Yr!

    I love this "well if you don't like it then go find (or found!) your own school, nobody's stopping you" approach. To my mind I'm the citizen who has to pay for the schools so I would class all of these schools as 'my schools'. People seem to be offering 'choice' of schools as if I'm a kid in a sweet shop with a tonne of money to spend. Any parent who's been on the lookout for a secular school knows that is very much not the case.

    Hey, this school has an endemic problem of bullying?
    Well if you don't like it why don't you go build your own school.

    Hey this school promotes sport to the detriment of student's academic education?
    Well if you don't like it why don't you go build yer own.

    I wonder if this line was used when people started to raise questions about the abuse of children in the early eighties.
    Well if you have a problem with your child being chastised with the cane then why don't you go build your own school... or emigrate or something.. it's a big world out there with lots to see.


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    #2143
    Not a NSA agent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Not a NSA agent


    DK man wrote: »
    No - catholic schools have been welcoming all faiths and none for a very long time. Catholic parents want their children to be educated in an environment and ethos which enriches their children's lives from a Christian perspective. It's their rights to do this - we don't live in some sort of communist statelet. You are also free to join and set up a school or schools to suit your own system of values - and guess what - Catholics will be very happy for you to do that and won't try to scupper your efforts or won't be highly offended - no just get on with it

    By welcoming you mean tolerated as otherwise there would be no options for a school.

    In a country where the majority dont consider themselves religious and with quite low mass attendance I find it hard to believe that catholic parents care.

    Having a school system which doesnt prioritise one religion isnt communist.

    Great idea, lets have lots of smaller schools, that wont be a waste of resources.


    How about we have a school system which doesnt discriminate based on religion and encourages segregation and any parents which want their children to have a religious education put in some effort and take them to mass.
    The EU court even thinks Ireland has a problem.


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    #2144
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Gives up! No longer arguing point as it just turns circular! I completely, totally disagree with this. I feel like I and people like me are being excluded from access to public services very deliberately and it's just not really acceptable in what's supposed to be a relatively liberal society.
    I just don't get that. The founders of religious schools decided to provide a service they felt their community needed; just like you can if you want. The State can't discriminate against them for doing so, just like it can't discriminate against you for doing so. But you seem to think that the State is supposed to be providing education as a public service when it isn't; it's supposed to provide for education as a public service so that parents can decide for themselves how their children are educated. And allowing parents that choice is being a liberal society.
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    It's absolutely church-state corporatism and an attempt to evangelise and gain extreme levels of social influence through embedding in state services.
    Except that education isn't a State service. It's a parental responsibility.
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I really don't think it's acceptable or good enough to just keep ignoring it and I actually think the Irish state is a complete disappointment in this regard. It's quite happy to turn its back on a large number of its people and cowtow to private religious organisation.
    I don't disagree that our education system could be better, but really, is it acceptable to keep ignoring the facts just so you can whinge about not being given what you want?
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    There are times you'd just get completely fed up living here. It's fairly obvious I'm not welcome and it's a non-subtle hint that I should emigrate.
    Which has been a common theme in your posts. No one has been posting arguments for you to stay?


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    #2145
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    DK man wrote: »
    No - catholic schools have been welcoming all faiths and none for a very long time. Catholic parents want their children to be educated in an environment and ethos which enriches their children's lives from a Christian perspective. It's their rights to do this - we don't live in some sort of communist statelet. You are also free to join and set up a school or schools to suit your own system of values - and guess what - Catholics will be very happy for you to do that and won't try to scupper your efforts or won't be highly offended - no just get on with it
    How schools should we set up? Schools catering for exactly what I want, comprising two pupils? Would there ever be too many schools?


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    #2146
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    DK man wrote: »
    No - catholic schools have been welcoming all faiths and none for a very long time. Catholic parents want their children to be educated in an environment and ethos which enriches their children's lives from a Christian perspective. It's their rights to do this - we don't live in some sort of communist statelet. You are also free to join and set up a school or schools to suit your own system of values - and guess what - Catholics will be very happy for you to do that and won't try to scupper your efforts or won't be highly offended - no just get on with it

    You know what. At the heart of Christianity is compassion.

    How is a school demonstration compassion by practising exclusionary tactics?

    That is just institutionalised bullying.... Oh yes long tradition of that they don't want to let go of apparently.


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    #2147
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Absolam wrote: »
    I just don't get that. The founders of religious schools decided to provide a service they felt their community needed; just like you can if you want. The State can't discriminate against them for doing so, just like it can't discriminate against you for doing so. But you seem to think that the State is supposed to be providing education as a public service when it isn't; it's supposed to provide for education as a public service so that parents can decide for themselves how their children are educated. And allowing parents that choice is being a liberal society.
    Except that education isn't a State service. It's a parental responsibility.
    I don't disagree that our education system could be better, but really, is it acceptable to keep ignoring the facts just so you can whinge about not being given what you want?
    Which has been a common theme in your posts. No one has been posting arguments for you to stay?

    So basically what you're saying is that the Irish government is so deeply incompetent it actually doesn't have a public education system!

    It's no wonder we had to hand the keys over to the ECB, European Commission and IMF since we just let the banks and speculators set fiscal policy and pretty much regulate themselves too.

    Honestly, at this stage nothing surprises me about this country.

    What happened here under the watch of the states "education" and "welfare" system in the 20th century was so horrific I simply cannot understand why the system has largely remained largely untouched and unchanged.

    But sure this is Ireland, vested interests first, screw human rights and fairness!


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    #2148
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Absolam wrote: »
    Which has been a common theme in your posts. No one has been posting arguments for you to stay?

    It is perfectly possible to want to improve the current state of affairs in a country while getting the hell out of there until things improve.


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    #2149
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    It is perfectly possible to want to improve the current state of affairs in a country while getting the hell out of there until things improve.

    #hometovote, for example.


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    #2150
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    I would encourage anybody thinking of leaving to stay, don't give religious bigots the satisfaction or comfort of watching you leave. Let them know you're sticking around and their discrimination and intolerance won't get rid of you, remember this is our home as well as theirs.

    Anyway all we're really calling for is the state not to take sides, we're not calling for the state to take our side or anybody elses, I don't that's terribly unreasonable.


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    #2151
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    I have a child entering sixth class in a catholic school. She is of the opinion that religion is horsecrap, cannot understand how grown adults can teach creationism, Adam and Eve and a whole lot of other nonsense but is tolerating religion for the moment. She probably will go ahead with confirmation, simply for the occasion, money, presents etc. I will probably get lambasted by Christians and Atheists for this approach but such is life.

    A couple of mixed questions.
    Do you have to attend religion classes in secondary catholic schools?
    If you do not, are there alternatives or are religion classes scheduled in such a way that you have a free period?
    Is religion regarded as an easy exam subject for someone who is good at English?


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    #2152
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Absolam wrote: »
    I just don't get that. The founders of religious schools decided to provide a service they felt their community needed; just like you can if you want.

    Actually they weren't founded as 'religious' schools. Their remit was to provide an education with religious instruction supposed to take place outside school hours. Monies funding the school were not supposed to be given if this was being done during school time.. but Ireland being ireland .. a blind eye was being turned. Sure, we all know the way that went but that still doesn't make it right just because the state abdicated it's responsibilities to provide education (instead of provide 'for' education). The 19th century is over, the state now has a responsibility to provide education (not just provide 'for' education.

    If the religious orders now feel that that a community should be provided religious indoctorination... then so be it. Why are they so afraid of the Sunday school model?

    Absolam wrote: »
    The State can't discriminate against them for doing so, just like it can't discriminate against you for doing so. But you seem to think that the State is supposed to be providing education as a public service when it isn't; it's supposed to provide for education as a public service so that parents can decide for themselves how their children are educated. And allowing parents that choice is being a liberal society.
    Except that education isn't a State service. It's a parental responsibility.
    I don't disagree that our education system could be better, but really, is it acceptable to keep ignoring the facts just so you can whinge about not being given what you want?
    Which has been a common theme in your posts. No one has been posting arguments for you to stay?

    It's not about being given what someone wants, it's about being give what someone has a RIGHT to. That's what a liberal society is.

    You want religious education.. why so afraid of doing it on Sunday's after mass?


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    #2153
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    To be honest, I have actually given up on the place.

    The same sex marriage referendum was a big step forward (although the results of it are still before the courts... due to various appeals)

    I don't see education changing here.

    If anything it's actually become even more dug in! Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil won't touch if with a barge pole. Labour said they would do something and achieved absolutely nothing at all really.

    The Dail is still taking little break, big break and saying prayers much like an Irish primary school.

    Sorry, but I'm just thinking at this stage my life is too short to be wasting it dealing worth this nonsense.

    When I look up at Northern Ireland I'm just ashamed to even share the same island as those pyromaniacs.

    I just don't want to live here anymore. I don't like the public policies on education, the rules on abortion are utterly ridiculous and put women's lives at risk, divorce still takes 5 years, having only been introduced in the 1990s...

    It's a common theme in my posts because I find the place depressing.


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    #2154
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    galljga1 wrote: »
    If you do not, are there alternatives or are religion classes scheduled in such a way that you have a free period?
    My school deliberately scheduled religion classes in such a way that it made them very difficult to skip, particularly in the senior years (immediately after morning break, middle period in the afternoon etc).


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    #2155
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    My school deliberately scheduled religion classes in such a way that it made them very difficult to skip, particularly in the senior years (immediately after morning break, middle period in the afternoon etc).

    Cheers. How long ago was this. Were your classes mandatory? Now that religion is an exam subject, would it be scheduled against other subjects or given that this is Ireland, would it be on it's own? If my daughter decided not to attend religion class, with my support, would this be tolerated?


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    #2156
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    galljga1 wrote: »
    Cheers. How long ago was this. Were your classes mandatory? Now that religion is an exam subject, would it be scheduled against other subjects or given that this is Ireland, would it be on it's own? If my daughter decided not to attend religion class, with my support, would this be tolerated?
    All of this depends on the school in question. You'd be better off asking the schools you plan on enrolling in to address these matters, because every school operates in its own manner when it comes to indoctrination.


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    #2157
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Did my Leaving Cert 13 years ago - so a while ago now!

    It *should* be tolerated, but what her alternative will be is a whole other matter. The usual alternative in my school and in my brother's one was to go to the library for quiet study.


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    #2158
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    Did my Leaving Cert 13 years ago - so a while ago now!

    It *should* be tolerated, but what her alternative will be is a whole other matter. The usual alternative in my school and in my brother's one was to go to the library for quiet study.

    The obvious solution is to schedule it at the beginning or end of the day and let the kids they want to exclude either come in late or leave early.


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    #2159
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    The obvious solution is to schedule it at the beginning or end of the day and let the kids they want to exclude either come in late or leave early.


    What madness is this? Running a school in accordance with what might suit the students?! Imagine the exodus if the last class of the day was religion.......


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    #2160
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    lazygal wrote: »
    What madness is this? Running a school in accordance with what might suit the students?! Imagine the exodus if the last class of the day was religion.......

    It was actually worse when the last two classes were double PE in 5th year! :pac:

    Bloody all-girls schools...


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    #2161
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    lazygal wrote: »
    What madness is this? Running a school in accordance with what might suit the students?! Imagine the exodus if the last class of the day was religion.......

    That would truly be a social experiment worth carrying out.


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