School patronage

Absolam

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Aye, just as nonsensical as it retaining the same pupils too I'd imagine.

Well, if it ever did happen and the new patron kicked all the pupils out as well, the resulting fuss would certainly make the records much easier to find

magicbastarder

"you could have two applicants to the same course; one rejected with Honours Irish and 460 points, and the other accepted with 435 points and Ordinary Level Irish "simply because they are Protestant".

http://m.rte.ie/news/2016/0822/811138-nursing-teacher-training/

Absolam

magicbastarder wrote: »

"you could have two applicants to the same course; one rejected with Honours Irish and 460 points, and the other accepted with 435 points and Ordinary Level Irish "simply because they are Protestant". http://m.rte.ie/news/2016/0822/811138-nursing-teacher-training/

Is the point of the article not that because so few primary teachers choose to orient their education towards Protestant primary schools rather than Catholic primary schools that it's easier to get into that course? I'd agree that just training teachers (or nurses) makes a lot more sense, but it still looks like an opportunity for someone with a lower points expectation to still get the career education they want if they're canny about it....

looksee

'We do in fact realise that many of our potential students are not religious in any way, and we expect that they will lie to get onto the course. This is acceptable provided appearances are kept up, and is useful practise for when they move on to become TDs. It is also anticipated that those who got on the course with lower points will undergo a conversion during the course which will enable them to have a greater opportunity of finding a job.'

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

'We do in fact realise that many of our potential students are not religious in any way, and we expect that they will lie to get onto the course. This is acceptable provided appearances are kept up, and is useful practise for when they move on to become TDs. It is also anticipated that those who got on the course with lower points will undergo a conversion during the course which will enable them to have a greater opportunity of finding a job.'

If people just lie to get on the course, given that the entry bar is lower, the points will probably end up being higher than for the RC course. Problem solved?

looksee

But people do not go onto a course worrying about how their application will affect future applications. And I was not being entirely serious, just exasperated by the whole situation.

smacl

Absolam wrote: »

If people just lie to get on the course, given that the entry bar is lower, the points will probably end up being higher than for the RC course. Problem solved?

Good old Christian ethos education, once again encouraging us to lie in order to get an education. :rolleyes:

Peregrinus

You could make the same point about any affirmative action/diversity programme (which is what this is). Sure, there is some scope for people to lie about their identity or background in order to bring themselves within the scope of the programme. But the scope for that is usually fairly limited. (In this case, if you can find one person who has converted to Protestantism purely to get a place in teacher training, now would be a good time to point to him or her.) There is also scope for people who don't qualify for the programme feeling sore about the fact that, e.g., they can't get a place in teacher training college because they don't qualify for the programme. But, of course, if the programme were abolished they still wouldn't get a place in teacher training college. Abolishing the programme doesn't have the result that everybody with 435 points and a C in pass Irish gets a place; it has the result that nobody with those marks gets a place.

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

But people do not go onto a course worrying about how their application will affect future applications. And I was not being entirely serious, just exasperated by the whole situation.

Of course not.. but once the smart underperformers in the current crop take advantage, the points requirement will start to climb is what I'm saying.

From the CICE's point of view if they can attract more people that have their ethos with lower points it's a good plan; they get more chance of obtaining the teachers they want. But I think the points are that way because they had less applicants, and if they get more applicants the points will go up; the qualification is the same either way so in the short to medium term there's an incentive there for Protestants to become primary school teachers.

magicbastarder

Peregrinus wrote: »

You could make the same point about any affirmative action/diversity programme (which is what this is).

putting the diversity option to one side, affirmative action is a concept i would have taken to mean that someone who would not have qualified because they come from a disadvantaged background. which being protestant is not necessarily so.

but i don't see this really as either a diversity of AA issue - this is simply a hangover from the economics of offering the same course to two different and largely mutually exclusive groups, and the resulting demand dynamics of it. merging the two into essentially the one course has resulted in this slightly absurd situation.

Peregrinus

magicbastarder wrote: »

putting the diversity option to one side, affirmative action is a concept i would have taken to mean that someone who would not have qualified because they come from a disadvantaged background. which being protestant is not necessarily so.

No offence, but I think that's an unduly limited view of affirmative action. Affirmative action isn't intended just to benefit an individual from a disadvantaged group; it's also intended to benefit the entire group, and wider society. So the primary justification for wanting more women in government, for example, is not that it would be good for women; it's that it would be good for the republic. The thinking is that the whole of society suffers if, e.g., black people, or women, or whoever, are marginalised, and consequently the whole society benefits if effective action is taken to counter that marginalisation. The individuals who benefit may actually not suffer from marginalisation very much at all (black people who benefit from affirmative action programmes in the US are disproportionately middle-class, for example) but since the good sought is the good of society as a whole, more than the good of particular individuals, this isn't a fatal objection.

Are Protestants disadvantaged in the Republic? Not in the sense of being economically disadvantaged, obviously. But in the sense of being at risk of assimilation and disappearance as a distinct social and cultural group? Yes, they are, and this will impoverish Ireland, culturally and socially. The Protestant community is strengthened and sustained by having its distinct social institutions, including schools. Hence, measures to ensure that the Protestant school system remains viable, including measures to ensure a supply of teachers, can be classed as affirmative action.

magicbastarder wrote: »

but i don't see this really as either a diversity of AA issue - this is simply a hangover from the economics of offering the same course to two different and largely mutually exclusive groups, and the resulting demand dynamics of it. merging the two into essentially the one course has resulted in this slightly absurd situation.

Isn't having "two [or more] different and largely mutually exclusive groups" pretty much the essence of diversity, magicbastarder? Diversity is the opposite of homogeneity. If you want to foster diversity, then you wish to sustain and maintain the diverse character of distinct groups in society.

magicbastarder

Peregrinus wrote: »

Isn't having "two [or more] different and largely mutually exclusive groups" pretty much the essence of diversity, magicbastarder? Diversity is the opposite of homogeneity. If you want to foster diversity, then you wish to sustain and maintain the diverse character of distinct groups in society.

i should have explained my thinking better (am diving in and out of the thread a bit) - it's the merging of the two courses into one and offering the same course but with differing requirements which i find a bit odd. wasn't nearly as odd when it was genuinely two different colleges offering two different courses. it's more a reflection of historical issues in ireland than a genuine attempt to deal with the goal of ensuring diversity. if they'd deliberately created a brand new course with the differing requirements, it would have raised a lot of eyebrows.

plus, i would happily admit that my thinking on religion being a requirement to become a teacher makes me less inclined to view this in a positive light.

as an aside, i remember when i started in UCD, it was quite possible to choose arts, and choose the same subjects as someone attending the science faculty did, on a lower points requirement. this may still be the case.

i'm alt tabbing in and out a bit so my post might be slightly disjointed.

Peregrinus

Oh, this has all the marks of a compromise. As you know, until recently, CICE was a separate institution with its own campus,delivering its own lectures. Like all the other teacher training colleges it awarded a qualification which would entitle graduates to teach in any school, but its teaching did put greater emphasis on aspects of particular relevance to those teaching in the Protestant system (smaller schools, teaching multi-level classes, etc). And of course it had its own entry process with, inevitably, its own points requirement.

OK. In these straitened times, the economics of maintaining a large number of small training colleges, each with its own staff, campus, etc, no longer make sense. So the Dept of Ed has been, ahem, encouraging mergers, relocations to University campuses, co-teaching, that kind of thing. Obviously, colleges want to maintain as much of their distinctive traditions, relative strengths, etc as they can in these mergers.

CICE is already linked to to DCU, which is the accrediting instituion for its degrees. From next month CICE will be co-located with St Patrick's College Drumcondra, the Mater Dei Institute and the DCU School of Education Studies on a single campus (the present St Pats Drumcondra Building). They'll share teaching and other resources, and provide initial and continuing eduation "for teachers across the full education continuum, preparing teachers for denominational, non-denominational and multi-denominational education".

Obviously, there's a balance to be struck between merging these institutions for reasons of efficiency, and maintaining their differences for reasons of diversity. Part of that balance is separate courses with separate entry streams (and, therefore separate points requirements).
The CICE has negotiated a course which reflects the particular strengths that CICE has (small schools, multi-level classes, etc) and places on that course are reserved for Protestants who are "aware of and willing to support the distinctive ethos of Protestant primary schools". This isn't done for the good of the students, but for the good of the schools that will employ them. It was, presumably, part of the terms on which the CICE joined in the merger.

recedite

Affirmative action would be taking a certain number of protestants into the police for example, if they were under represented there.
In this case, they are taking protestants to train as teachers in protestant schools, where they are already over represented.
So this is simply religious discrimination. There are two streams of trainees, controlled by two different religions. And as you would expect with segregation, the points requirement in each stream is not identical. The points requirement in each stream is subject to the normal laws of supply and demand, which varies slightly in each stream.
According to the article...

This parent pointed out that that applicant will become qualified to teach in any primary school in the country, not just Protestant ones.

But I'm not sure that is true, the graduate would be lacking the RC religious education module which AFAIK would bar them from getting a job in a RC school.

Also it would not be as simple as "lying" to get onto the protestant course. The interview process would determine who was from the right background, and who was not.
Even if a non-protestant managed to get onto the course, they would be at a distinct disadvantage when applying for a job in a protestant school. And be unqualified to teach in a RC school. So that would just leave ET as their only realistic option for employment (or emigration to the UK where nobody gives a $hit about this nonsense)

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

Isn't having "two [or more] different and largely mutually exclusive groups" pretty much the essence of diversity, magicbastarder? Diversity is the opposite of homogeneity. If you want to foster diversity, then you wish to sustain and maintain the diverse character of distinct groups in society.

To embrace diversity is also to embrace change. The situation with these courses particularly, and church involvment in education in Ireland more generally, is that it is actually striving to preserve the status quo and the religious discrimination that goes with it. If, for example, we were to embrace diveristy, how is it exactly than non-Catholic minorities find it so much more difficult to get into their local school that their baptised Catholic counterparts? This to me seems like a clear attempt to stamp out diversity.

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

To embrace diversity is also to embrace change. The situation with these courses particularly, and church involvment in education in Ireland more generally, is that it is actually striving to preserve the status quo and the religious discrimination that goes with it. If, for example, we were to embrace diveristy, how is it exactly than non-Catholic minorities find it so much more difficult to get into their local school that their baptised Catholic counterparts? This to me seems like a clear attempt to stamp out diversity.

Well, no. If the change is a change to homogeneity, then embracing that particular change is clearly not embracing diversity.

Schools are a good example of this. If we didn't have the national school system we do, then there would be no C of I schools, no Presbyterian schools, no Islamic schools and no Jewish schools. And would an Ireland with no C of I, Presbyterian, Islamic or Jewish schools, just schools in which the majority ethos prevailed uniformly, be more diverse or less diverse? This isn't rocket science; a society in which all the schools are the same is less diverse than one which supports a variety of school types. The notion that offering school choices is a "clear attempt to stamp out diversity" is an extraordinary one; not offering school choices looks much more like an attempt to stamp out diversity, surely?

looksee

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, no. If the change is a change to homogeneity, then embracing that particular change is clearly not embracing diversity.

Schools are a good example of this. If we didn't have the national school system we do, then there would be no C of I schools, no Presbyterian schools, no Islamic schools and no Jewish schools. And would an Ireland with no C of I, Presbyterian, Islamic or Jewish schools, just schools in which the majority ethos prevailed uniformly, be more diverse or less diverse? This isn't rocket science; a society in which all the schools are the same is less diverse than one which supports a variety of school types. The notion that offering school choices is a "clear attempt to stamp out diversity" is an extraordinary one; not offering school choices looks much more like an attempt to stamp out diversity, surely?

Not really, unless you are suggesting that schools' main focus is to promote and sustain specific beliefs. Surely a school's main focus is education? Children would not have religious beliefs if not passed on by their parents and the churches they belong to. If children attended schools that just offered them an education, including a broad range of cultural and religious practises as social information, they would all increase their knowledge of their friends and neighbours' beliefs, and the family and churches would maintain the diversity. At the same time it would increase respect for diversity rather than creating ghetto mentalities - live and let live.

smacl

Just signed the Uplift campaign to end the baptism ban, may be of interest to some here.

looksee

Done

Peregrinus

looksee wrote: »

Not really, unless you are suggesting that schools' main focus is to promote and sustain specific beliefs. Surely a school's main focus is education? Children would not have religious beliefs if not passed on by their parents and the churches they belong to. If children attended schools that just offered them an education, including a broad range of cultural and religious practises as social information, they would all increase their knowledge of their friends and neighbours' beliefs, and the family and churches would maintain the diversity. At the same time it would increase respect for diversity rather than creating ghetto mentalities - live and let live.

False dichotomy, I think. Education includes the promotion and inculcation of beliefs, and this is true regardless of whether the education has a secular or religious ethos. We're social animals, and our distinct communities do require social institutions - like schools - if they are to be maintained as healthy communities.

If you can find Protestants, Muslims, Jews, etc who say "yes, our position as communities which contribute to Ireland's diversity would be enhanced and strengthened if our schools were closed", now is a good time to point to them.

looksee

Peregrinus wrote: »

False dichotomy, I think. Education includes the promotion and inculcation of beliefs, and this is true regardless of whether the education has a secular or religious ethos. We're social animals, and our distinct communities do require social institutions - like schools - if they are to be maintained as healthy communities.

If you can find Protestants, Muslims, Jews, etc who say "yes, our position as communities which contribute to Ireland's diversity would be enhanced and strengthened if our schools were closed", now is a good time to point to them.

No, I don't think it is my false dichotomy. Education does not promote and inculcate beliefs, it teaches factual material. I attended secular schools (in England, in the 50s and 60s) and nothing was taught that would not be acceptable to people of any belief system or none.

In Primary School I do not recall any religious input at all.

In Secondary we did have assembly, which included a hymn and a prayer, but it was very pragmatic and would not have converted, or even encouraged, anyone's religious beliefs. It was vaguely CofE and 'other faiths' could skip the 'religious' bit and just come in for the announcements. The only other time religion came into school was in the one class a week when world religions were taught as a factual subject.

I was religious as a teen and young adult, but this was entirely due to family and church influence, school had no input at all.

Peregrinus

looksee wrote: »

No, I don't think it is my false dichotomy. Education does not promote and inculcate beliefs, it teaches factual material. I attended secular schools (in England, in the 50s and 60s) and nothing was taught that would not be acceptable to people of any belief system or none.

In Primary School I do not recall any religious input at all.

In Secondary we did have assembly, which included a hymn and a prayer, but it was very pragmatic and would not have converted, or even encouraged, anyone's religious beliefs. It was vaguely CofE and 'other faiths' could skip the 'religious' bit and just come in for the announcements. The only other time religion came into school was in the one class a week when world religions were taught as a factual subject.

I was religious as a teen and young adult, but this was entirely due to family and church influence, school had no input at all.

You're confusing "belief" and "religious belief", Looksee. My daughter attended secular primary schools in Australia, and they were quite explicit about the beliefs and values they were inculcating. ("This term we are focusing on the importance of 'respect'.") They just weren't religious beliefs and values.

Education, and particularly childhood education, is a great deal more than imparting information. The distinction is not between schools which impart beliefs and values and those which do not, but betweeen schools which reflect on the beliefs and values they impart and are explicit about that, and schools which are simply in denial about the fact that inculcating beliefs and values is central to what they do.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you can find Protestants, Muslims, Jews, etc who say "yes, our position as communities which contribute to Ireland's diversity would be enhanced and strengthened if our schools were closed", now is a good time to point to them.

I think you're just hiding behind diversity as if its an inherently good thing.
Why not turn that statement around to; "If you can find Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews, etc who say "our position as separate communities which reduce Ireland's social cohesion would be enhanced and strengthened if our schools were closed".
All of the above are welcome to their various private beliefs, but it is a very bad thing for the state to encourage segregation by funding a separate school for every single religious group.

vicwatson

If someone is an atheist and a secondary school application form asks "religion" should the person be honest or lie to try get a place??

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

I think you're just hiding behind diversity as if its an inherently good thing.

There's no "hiding" involved. Diversity is an inherently good thing, and I have no hesitation in saying so.

recedite wrote: »

Why not turn that statement around to; "If you can find Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews, etc who say "our position as separate communities which reduce Ireland's social cohesion would be enhanced and strengthened if our schools were closed".

Well, can you find such people? If you can find people whose children are in diverse schools who want the schools closed and replaced with homogenous schools then that should certainly happen. it shouldn't be imposed on those who don't want it, though.

recedite wrote: »

All of the above are welcome to their various private beliefs, but it is a very bad thing for the state to encourage segregation by funding a separate school for every single religious group.

I haven't suggested they should "fund a separate school for every single religious group". But they should certainly be willing to fund different types of schools for which there is sufficient demand to make the schools viable.

recedite

vicwatson wrote: »

If someone is an atheist and a secondary school application form asks "religion" should the person be honest or lie to try get a place??

If its a VEC/ETB school they might ask the question and it would have no bearing on whether you get the place or not.
If its a school with a declared religious ethos, and it is oversubscribed, you might lie, but the local clergy might survey the list of applicants and only tick off those that are known to him.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, can you find such people? If you can find people whose children are in diverse schools who want the schools closed and replaced with homogenous schools then that should certainly happen. it shouldn't be imposed on those who don't want it, though.

My own kids attended a CoI primary school, because the choice was either that or a RC one. I want to see both of those schools closed and replaced with more homogenous schools.

When the "whites only" schools closed in the southern USA 60 odd years ago there was an instant reduction in "diversity". Do you lament the fact that homogenous schools were imposed on "the white community".

looksee

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're confusing "belief" and "religious belief", Looksee. My daughter attended secular primary schools in Australia, and they were quite explicit about the beliefs and values they were inculcating. ("This term we are focusing on the importance of 'respect'.") They just weren't religious beliefs and values.

Education, and particularly childhood education, is a great deal more than imparting information. The distinction is not between schools which impart beliefs and values and those which do not, but betweeen schools which reflect on the beliefs and values they impart and are explicit about that, and schools which are simply in denial about the fact that inculcating beliefs and values is central to what they do.

I do not consider I am confusing the two. You speak of 'values' which I would say are not 'beliefs' in the sense we are discussing. Yes it is possible to argue that you have to believe that a value is desirable, but you also have to believe that when you are being taught that 2 +2 = 4 you are being taught something that is correct. This is not the belief I am discussing.

We were taught values, of respect, co-operation, generally positive attitudes, but as I said, none of these would have offended anyone of any religious belief system. Secular does not mean having no values.

There is no doubt that people of religious beliefs, or indeed other cultures, who might have liked to add in other beliefs or customs of their own, but with the exception of the rather perfunctory hymn and prayer at assembly, no beliefs of any sort were promoted.

I don't even recall any Nativity plays in any class that I was in, at any level. I do remember being in a production of 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' in last class in Primary school, and enjoying and understanding it.

vicwatson

recedite wrote: »

If its a VEC/ETB school they might ask the question and it would have no bearing on whether you get the place or not.
If its a school with a declared religious ethos, and it is oversubscribed, you might lie, but the local clergy might survey the list of applicants and only tick off those that are known to him.

What an illegal joke

Why do Gaelscoils ask?

silverharp

Peregrinus wrote: »

There's no "hiding" involved. Diversity is an inherently good thing, and I have no hesitation in saying so.

in terms of education it depends, diversity of school systems based on education philosophies and goals is a good thing and a basic form of competition which allows cross fertilisation of ideas. Diversity aimed at reinforcing segregation and in group preferences can lead to disconnects. NI is a example of diversity not being a strength