School patronage

expectationlost

Councillors agree to lease Marsh House to Educate Together http://www.mayonews.ie/news/28177-councillors-agree-to-lease-marsh-house-to-educate-together

The new Castlebar Educate Together National School looks set to be open in September after councillors gave the go ahead to lease Marsh House on a temporary basis.
Castlebar Educate Together National School have been looking for a premises for over a year after initial plans to move into a derelict national school outside Castlebar fell through last August.

but

Independent councillor Frank Durcan was the only councillor to oppose the lease of the building saying that Educate Together was ‘an elitist group’ and the current education system had always educated children irrespective of their creed or colour.
“I don’t understand how that an elitist group or another other minority group should expect the taxpayers or the people of Ireland to provide schools, teachers and facilities for small minority groups. I am sincerely of the believe that children who play together outside education should be educated together,” he said.

think he's very mixed up

smacl

expectationlost wrote: »

Councillors agree to lease Marsh House to Educate Together http://www.mayonews.ie/news/28177-councillors-agree-to-lease-marsh-house-to-educate-together but think he's very mixed up

Just a bit, after joining Renua he was quoted as saying "This country needs something new as everything else we have had in this country has been a disaster." I'm guessing that wasn't a reference to religious discrimination on the part of Catholic national schools so

techdiver

expectationlost wrote: »

Councillors agree to lease Marsh House to Educate Together http://www.mayonews.ie/news/28177-councillors-agree-to-lease-marsh-house-to-educate-together but think he's very mixed up

smacl wrote: »

Just a bit, after joining Renua he was quoted as saying "This country needs something new as everything else we have had in this country has been a disaster." I'm guessing that wasn't a reference to religious discrimination on the part of Catholic national schools so

I think he is just a ****in idiot. Full stop!

How do so many of his kind get elected in this country??

looksee

I wonder what the definition of 'elitist' is in that context?

Bristolscale7

looksee wrote: »

I wonder what the definition of 'elitist' is in that context?

Book-learnin and pretty teeth.

PopePalpatine

techdiver wrote: »

I think he is just a ****in idiot. Full stop!

How do so many of his kind get elected in this country??

He fixshed the road!

Well, either that or cute-hoorism.

lazygal

looksee wrote: »

I wonder what the definition of 'elitist' is in that context?

Anyone who has the cheek to complain about indoctrination when if it wasn't for the churches there'd still be no schools in Ireland, I'm guessing.

robindch

looksee wrote: »

I wonder what the definition of 'elitist' is in that context?

I'm going with "somebody involved with something I don't like, don't understand and refuses to be part of my power vertical."

expectationlost

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
272. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills the safeguards that he is proposing to allow a school to determine and preserve its ethos, specifically given the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-07-12a.758&s=%22School+Patronage%22 there nothing in the govs bill that effects a schools ethos other then to state its own admissions policies.

recedite

Councillor Durcan seems to see only two broad groupings in society;

1. Catholics and those willing to become Catholics, who can attend a Catholic school at the taxpayers expense, because this is a Catholic country.

2. Minority snobs such as jews, prods, atheists etc. who in their weirdness don't allow their kids to play with normal kids, and should really be sending their kids to private schools at their own expense.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Councillor Durcan seems to see only two broad groupings in society;

1. Catholics and those willing to become Catholics, who can attend a Catholic school at the taxpayers expense, because this is a Catholic country.

2. Minority snobs such as jews, prods, atheists etc. who in their weirdness don't allow their kids to play with normal kids, and should really be sending their kids to private schools at their own expense.

I'd update (2):

robindch wrote:

2. Minority snobs such as jews, prods, atheists etc. who in their weirdness don't allow their kids to play with normal kids, and should really be sending their kids to private schools at their own expense; or who should become catholic and stop being so zealous about not being a catholic

2RockMountain

recedite wrote: »

2. Minority snobs such as jews, prods, atheists etc. who in their weirdness don't allow their kids to play with normal kids, and should really be sending their kids to private schools at their own expense.

Or perhaps minority snobs who should really be sending their kids to private schools, subsidised by the State;

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/rise-of-4-in-support-grant-for-protestant-fee-paying-schools-1.1942724

recedite

If the state subsidises private catholic schools, then it must also subdsidise private protestant schools.
The catholic grant money is disbursed to the private schools, thereby reducing the fees, and allowing a few more people to join the elite at those private schools. It perptuates the social divide within the religion, but it creates a sufficient number of voters who feel they are part of this "private school" elite and have a stake in continuing the status quo.

The protestant grant money is disbursed to individual low income students (of their own religion) thereby allowing them to attend the same school as somebody who is paying full fees. It increases cohesion and egalitarianism within the religion, while also segregating them from wider society.

In both cases, the state is funding divisiveness and elitism in the name of "diversity".

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

If the state subsidises private catholic schools, then it must also subdsidise private protestant schools. The catholic grant money is disbursed to the private schools, thereby reducing the fees, and allowing a few more people to join the elite at those private schools. It perptuates the social divide within the religion, but it creates a sufficient number of voters who feel they are part of this "private school" elite and have a stake in continuing the status quo. The protestant grant money is disbursed to individual low income students (of their own religion) thereby allowing them to attend the same school as somebody who is paying full fees. It increases cohesion and egalitarianism within the religion, while also segregating them from wider society. In both cases, the state is funding divisiveness and elitism in the name of "diversity".

Is this just an exercise in pejorative linguistics? If Catholics get to go to a private school, it perpetuates a social divide, if Protestants get the same, it increases egalitarianism, really? As long as the private schools are associated with a religion you think the State is funding divisiveness and elitism... but if they're not associated with a religion how is it not doing the same? Seems to me you're trying to use an argument about the State contributing to the education of the children of wealthy individuals as a stick with which to poke denominational education. The State doesn't actually say it funds education in private schools in the name of 'diversity', but we all know it is obliged to endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative. That sounds like a real reason for funding them to me

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

Is this just an exercise in pejorative linguistics? If Catholics get to go to a private school, it perpetuates a social divide, if Protestants get the same, it increases egalitarianism, really?

It depends what the state money is used for. Grants for schools, or grants for students. Are there any low income Catholics who go to a private school, and sit beside a pupil who pays full fees, with neither pupil knowing how much the other's parents are paying? (scholarships aside)

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

It depends what the state money is used for. Grants for schools, or grants for students. Are there any low income Catholics who go to a private school, and sit beside a pupil who pays full fees, with neither pupil knowing how much the other's parents are paying? (scholarships aside)

So... you're pontificating on how State money is being used in schools to perpetuate social divides and funding divisiveness and elitism in the name of "diversity", without actually knowing what the State money is used for? That wasn't something you thought worth finding out before you told us what is being done with it?

If State funding pays for teachers salaries, clerical staff, & special needs supports, just like in non fee paying schools; not grants for schools, or grants for students, and it's not disbursed to individual low income students, as you said, or disbursed to the private schools (other than so that they can pass it on to staff), as you claimed, but is disbursed to teachers, how exactly does that perpetuate social divides, segregate students from wider society and fund divisiveness and elitism in the name of "diversity"?

recedite

State funding makes private schools more affordable for the middle classes, but still out of the reach of less well off people. Funding takes the form of teacher salaries and various grants. It is the votes of these petite bourgeoisie parents who avail of the private schools which allows the two-tier secondary education system to continue as our national system.

Additionally, there is the "protestant block grant" of €6.75M paid annually by the state to less well off protestants to allow them to attend protestant private schools.
A facility which is not available to catholics, atheists, hindus or anyone else.
Which makes it a sectarian grant payment. In some ways this is laudable (if you happen to be a protestant in need of attending a private school, but without the means to do so). On balance though it is not good, because it discriminates against non-protestants. If it was extended to cover all kids, then it would replace the free education system and all secondary schools would then become private schools... which of course defeats the whole purpose of a private school, which is to be exclusive.

So basically, the exclusivity of protestant private schools is mainly based on religion. But the exclusivity of catholic private schools is based on parental means as well as religion.

expectationlost

Equal Participation in Schools Bill 2016: First Stage
Deputy Ruth Coppinger http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2016072000016?opendocument

As well as removing the baptism barrier and the deletion of section 7(3)(c) of the Equal Status Act, the Bill also deals with some of the provisions in our Education Acts that take no account of children's religious viewpoint or lack of religion when they enter a school and allow them to be discriminated against throughout the school day. There is a constitutional right to opt out of religious instruction but that right is not facilitated in schools on a daily basis.

actually bill will be available in a few days, here it is http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=33436&&CatID=59 timed with this from AI

Minister Bruton Must Address Human Rights Abuses In State Curriculum http://atheist.ie/2016/07/minister-bruton-must-address-human-rights-abuses-state-curriculum/ NCCA riddled with people who can't see beyond catholicism, the NCCA keeps saying you can opt out if you want, but schools making it difficult, expecially when mixing religious education course and faith instruction, the NCCA again says we can't stop them doing that, talk to the board of management, it comes back to the state abdicating responsibilty for providing education for all children

very detailed investigation and report from AI http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2016/07/17-introduction-and-overview/ (too detailed? not enough links to docs as ever) the report they produced http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2016/07/17-introduction-and-overview/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/AI-State-Religious-Education-Course-Report.pdf

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

State funding makes private schools more affordable for the middle classes, but still out of the reach of less well off people. Funding takes the form of teacher salaries and various grants. It is the votes of these petite bourgeoisie parents who avail of the private schools which allows the two-tier secondary education system to continue as our national system.

Well, with terms like 'petite bourgeoisie' I think we know whose shoulder the chip is resting on, but still, I suspect those countries who don't allow citizens to avail of both public and private education aren't ones we're likely to want to emulate.

recedite wrote: »

Additionally, there is the "protestant block grant" of €6.75M paid annually by the state to less well off protestants to allow them to attend protestant private schools. A facility which is not available to catholics, atheists, hindus or anyone else. Which makes it a sectarian grant payment. In some ways this is laudable (if you happen to be a protestant in need of attending a private school, but without the means to do so). On balance though it is not good, because it discriminates against non-protestants. If it was extended to cover all kids, then it would replace the free education system and all secondary schools would then become private schools... which of course defeats the whole purpose of a private school, which is to be exclusive.

Though it has to be said that the block grant is only applied to schools outside the free education system; arguably those schools, having a higher pupil to teacher ratio and no grants for support services such as maintainance and administration are actually worse off and protestants are (by your measures) being discriminated against, rather than everyone else.

recedite wrote: »

So basically, the exclusivity of protestant private schools is mainly based on religion. But the exclusivity of catholic private schools is based on parental means as well as religion.

That's seems a rather astonishing leap. The exclusivity of a protestant private school isn't based on religion; it's existence (like any denominational school) is based on religion. Ditto any other school founded for a religious purpose, which is to say most schools.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

Ditto any other school founded for a religious purpose, which is to say most schools.

I hope you are wrong there, but if the primary purpose of a school is to act as a recruitment and indoctrination vehicle for some religious cult, then the state should have nothing to do with it.

expectationlost

Equal Participation in Schools Bill 2016 [PMB] Sponsored by Deputy Ruth Coppinger, Deputy Paul Murphy, Deputy Mick Barry http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=33436&&CatID=59

Bill entitled an Act to end religious discrimination in admission to primary and post-primary educational establishments and to provide for full participation of pupils of all faiths and none in primary and post-primary educational establishments

Exclusion of discrimination on religious grounds for admission to educational
establishments
1. The Equal Status Act 2000 is amended by deleting subsection (3)(c) of section 7.
Amendment of Education Act 1998
2. (1) The Education Act 1998 shall be amended—
(i) in section 2 by the deletion of the definition of “characteristic spirit” in
section 2,
(ii) in section 9(d) by the deletion of “spiritual,” and
(iii) in section 9(d) by the substitution of “characteristic spirit of the school” with
“constitutional and human rights of all persons concerned.”.
(2) The Education Act 1998 shall be amended in section 15—
(a) in subsection (2)(b) by the deletion of “uphold, and be accountable to the patron
for so upholding, the characteristic spirit of the school as determined by the
cultural, educational, moral, religious, social, linguistic and spiritual values and
traditions which inform and are characteristic of the objectives and conduct of the
school, and”, and
(b) in subsection (2)(d) by the deletion of “the characteristic spirit of the school and”.
(c) in section 30 by—
(i) deletion of subsection (2)(b),
(ii) the substitution of the following for subsection (2)(d):
“(d) shall ensure that religious instruction and faith formation classes
shall take place after core school hours.”, (iii) in subsection (2)(e) by the insertion of “and shall establish minimum
standards in relation to the nature of exemptions for students who do not
want to attend such classes in accordance with parental choice, or their own
choice in cases of students aged 18 years of age or over, having regard to the
constitutional and human rights of all persons concerned.”, and
(iv) by the insertion of subsection (2)(f):
“(f) shall require all schools to provide knowledge and information in
the State-prescribed curriculum in an objective, critical and
pluralistic manner that avoids indoctrination, outside of the specific
context of religious instruction and faith formation classes where
exemptions apply.”.
Short title
3. This Act may be cited as the Equal Participation in Schools Act 2016.

not going to go very far, Bruton says we going to have committee process about this area, into the longgrass

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

Councillors agree to lease Marsh House to Educate Together http://www.mayonews.ie/news/28177-councillors-agree-to-lease-marsh-house-to-educate-together but think he's very mixed up

durcan now submitting planning objections http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2016/07/21/4123730-wholly-inappropriate-for-school/

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

Minister Bruton Must Address Human Rights Abuses In State Curriculum http://atheist.ie/2016/07/minister-bruton-must-address-human-rights-abuses-state-curriculum/

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/students-are-being-forced-to-study-religion-group-claims-1.2727523

Many students in secondary schools are being forced to study religious education despite rules which state it is an optional subject, it has been claimed.

Religious education was introduced to the curriculum for secondary schools in 2000 to allow students to learn about a range of faiths and beliefs.

However, Atheist Ireland has gathered evidence which it says shows that many second-level schools are teaching religious education on a compulsory basis.

It claims that many of these schools are merging this State course with their own faith formation classes

John Hamill, of Atheist Ireland, said schools have placed a series of barriers in the way of students who wish to opt out of the subject.

“It’s easier to opt out of purgatory than it is to opt out of religion at second-level,” Mr Hamill said.

“Secular parents and those of minority faiths are being forced to have their children subject to Catholic faith formation as part of this State course.”

Mr Hamill said many parents are told that it is a core subject and any child who opts out will be forced to sit at the back of the classroom rather than being allowed to study another subject.

The campaign group has also obtained documents which it says show how the formation of the religious education subject in the mid- to late-1990s was heavily influenced by the Catholic church.

Records show that the department of education at the time warned that any part of a State course on religion would need to be scrupulously neutral or else it could breach articles of the Constitution.

However, Atheist Ireland claims that these new documents show the Catholic church played a key role in determining the content of the course.

In addition, it says non-Christian groups were excluded from the course committee established by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment (NCCA) to advise on the content of the course.

Discrimination

Jane Donnelly, of Atheist Ireland, said the course discriminates against secular and minority faith families and called on the Minister for Education to issue a circular to schools advising them that the State’s religious education subject is not compulsory.

She said students should be given the option of choosing another subject instead of religious education.

In response to queries, the NCCA said that while the Catholic church was represented on its course committee, it was as a provider of education and an education partner, along with many other groups.

A spokesman said there was extensive engagement with a number or religions and belief groups, such as humanists, evangelical churches and other minority faiths, during the formation of the course.

The NCCA spokesman said the subject is due to be reviewed as part of the reformed junior cycle, and this would be informed by the experience of students, teachers and patrons.

The council has previously pointed out that the subject is optional and parents have the right to withdraw their children from any subject that is “contrary to the conscience of the parent” under the Education Act.

It has said that students who find they have difficulty in opting out of a subject should raise it with their school’s board of management.

:rolleyes: So if the god botherer teachers in the school are forcing your child to do RE, raise it with the god botherers on the BOM. That'll work.

expectationlost wrote: »

durcan now submitting planning objections http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2016/07/21/4123730-wholly-inappropriate-for-school/

Wow. Why are they so determined to stop or at least obstruct this school? Do they feel that its very existence is a threat to their faith or something?

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

I hope you are wrong there, but if the primary purpose of a school is to act as a recruitment and indoctrination vehicle for some religious cult, then the state should have nothing to do with it.

Well I did say founded for a religious purpose... if you read that as 'to act as a recruitment and indoctrination vehicle for some religious cult' that may well say a bit more about you than it does about the school

expectationlost

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/students-are-being-forced-to-study-religion-group-claims-1.2727523




:rolleyes: So if the god botherer teachers in the school are forcing your child to do RE, raise it with the god botherers on the BOM. That'll work.

Jim Daly TD has been pushing a Education obudsman bill, http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=29882&&CatID=59&StartDate=01%20January%202015&OrderAscending=0 for his own reasons, re intractable disputes with schools (not to do with religion, but special needs access) but it could be useful

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=29882&&CatID=59&StartDate=01%20January%202015&OrderAscending=0
Ombudsman could provide overdue voice for students


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/ombudsman-could-provide-overdue-voice-for-students-1.2730161?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Within the Department of Education, there are reservations about setting up another potentially costly State body.
Instead, officials would prefer to establish a charter for parents and students, along with some form of statutory complaints mechanism.

could they not add it to the childrens ombudsman's office powers perhaps as subsidary, actually

However, the move is opposed by the Ombudsman for Children Dr Niall Muldoon on the basis it could result in legal costs for schools.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/parents-and-students-now-able-to-appeal-decisions-made-by-schools-1.2730155

“A more effective solution would be to put a robust statutory complaints mechanism in place and to empower boards of management to handle complaints in a child-friendly manner.”

Cork TD Jim Daly threatened to leave Fine Gael over education bill
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-td-jim-daly-threatened-to-leave-fine-gael-over-education-bill-411721.html

the bill was carried over from last term, and now Daly seems he going to change the his plan alot while trying to appear that he hasn't u-turned, transcript here http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2016072100001?opendocument

Mr Daly, however, said he would amend his proposed legislation so an ombudsman for education would only advise school boards of management rather than direct them on a legal basis. This is the same way as other ombudsmen operate.
“These legal powers are not necessary,” he said. “My information is that only once has a State agency refused to abide by the advice of an ombudsman.” He said he was dealing with two cases of students who had been refused access to second-level education on the basis of their special needs.

still need for the government to take responsibilty for providing faith free education

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

durcan now submitting planning objections http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2016/07/21/4123730-wholly-inappropriate-for-school/

Durcan objecting for reasons which have nothing to do with planning. Even so, there seems to be some genuine planning issues there. Mainly that a 4-classroom school is pointless in a medium sized town. Possibly ET would intend to put in for PP to build a huge extension after the first year or two of pupil intake, but they would have to own the building before doing that.

Hotblack Desiato

Schools may have to reduce teaching time for religion

Maths, Irish and English to be prioritised under radical new curriculum proposals

The fact that promoting literacy and numeracy rather than religion could be seen as radical is a terrible indictment of the state of our education system!

However, under a major change being considered, schools would be required to prioritise teaching time for State-backed curriculum subjects such as maths, Irish and English, as well as a new subject about world religions and ethics.

Denominational schools would be left to decide how much time they wish to dedicate to faith formation outside of these core subjects.

The move would pave the way for less teaching time on faith formation during the regular school day.

Such a move is likely to be broadly welcomed by many school principals who are worried about “curriculum overload” and the amount of time spent on teaching religion.

However, it is likely to spark controversy among religious groups who feel it may undermine the place of religion in denominational schools.

Feck them, tbh

A spokesperson for the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment declined to comment except to say it expects to publish detailed proposals in the autumn.

“We are due to advise the Minister for Education on time allocation for subjects,” the spokesperson said.

“We are still developing those proposals, which are due in the autumn.”

A survey of almost 600 principals published earlier this year found that eight out of 10 primary school principals believe less time should be spent on teaching religion in the classroom.

When asked what subject they felt less time should be allocated to in the context of a crowded curriculum, 85 per cent listed religion.

By contrast, about 90 per cent of principals felt more time should be dedicated to subjects such as maths, English and physical education.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The fact that promoting literacy and numeracy rather than religion could be seen as radical is a terrible indictment of the state of our education system!

There was a report out some years back from, AFAIR, the teaching unions - the details are in A+A's fossil record somewhere - in which estimates were made about the amount of time being spent on different topics around the country.

One striking finding was that in the schools where the amount of time spent on religion increased, the time spent on maths and the sciences decreased.

Nobody here seemed all that surprised, and nobody elsewhere seemed very interested.

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

There was a report out some years back from, AFAIR, the teaching unions - the details are in A+A's fossil record somewhere - in which estimates were made about the amount of time being spent on different topics around the country.

One striking finding was that in the schools where the amount of time spent on religion increased, the time spent on maths and the sciences decreased.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80735058

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76712399

Nobody here seemed all that surprised, and nobody elsewhere seemed very interested.

Like the 8th amendment, change that was once thought unthinkable is now regarded as desirable by more and more people, attitudes are changing albeit slowly for now, but the trend can be expected to continue to accelerate.

Or to be a bit blunt and cold, there's a generation of pensioner voters out there now who will shuffle off the electoral roll to be replaced in a few years with a generation of young voters who are largely atheistic, many antagonistic towards religion, and largely pro-choice. The challenge is getting first-time voters to turn out.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The challenge is getting first-time voters to turn out.

And getting the pensioners to stay at home.