water softeners

jj232000

Hi,

I am looking for some advice on water softeners! Were living in a Three bed cottage in the Midland 2 adults and 2 babies!

Our water is very hard! Limescale everywhere! When using the shower the shower head has to be cleaned out once a shower!

I was looking at water2buy.ie. Are these systems any good! Has anyone used them? I would like to try install myself not bad at diy!

Do these systems need the main sink separate for tea cooking etc with salt system? Or do you need to install reverse osmosis system? Just thinking with the babies bottles etc!

Is the metre or timer systems better?

any advice greatly appreciated.

shane0007

jj232000 wrote: »

Hi,

I am looking for some advice on water softeners! Were living in a Three bed cottage in the Midland 2 adults and 2 babies!

Our water is very hard! Limescale everywhere! When using the shower the shower head has to be cleaned out once a shower!

I was looking at water2buy.ie. Are these systems any good! Has anyone used them? I would like to try install myself not bad at diy!

Do these systems need the main sink separate for tea cooking etc with salt system? Or do you need to install reverse osmosis system? Just thinking with the babies bottles etc!

Is the metre or timer systems better?

any advice greatly appreciated.

I recently installed a very good one. Can't think of the brand off hand but can give you details later. Cost was €390 + VAT. Excellent system that fits under the sink and it monitors your water usage and regulates the nightly salt wash out to suit your usage. Less usage of salt or not under washing out.
Definitely can be installed by a decent DIY'er. If you send the manufacturer a water sample, they will factory set the wash out for you. They are based in Cork.

jj232000

shane0007 wrote: »

jj232000 wrote: »

Hi,

I am looking for some advice on water softeners! Were living in a Three bed cottage in the Midland 2 adults and 2 babies!

Our water is very hard! Limescale everywhere! When using the shower the shower head has to be cleaned out once a shower!

I was looking at water2buy.ie. Are these systems any good! Has anyone used them? I would like to try install myself not bad at diy!

Do these systems need the main sink separate for tea cooking etc with salt system? Or do you need to install reverse osmosis system? Just thinking with the babies bottles etc!

Is the metre or timer systems better?

any advice greatly appreciated.

I recently installed a very good one. Can't think of the brand off hand but can give you details later. Cost was €390 + VAT. Excellent system that fits under the sink and it monitors your water usage and regulates the nightly salt wash out to suit your usage. Less usage of salt or not under washing out.
Definitely can be installed by a decent DIY'er. If you send the manufacturer a water sample, they will factory set the wash out for you. They are based in Cork.

Does your system do the whole house? Do you have your main sink attached or septate for drinking etc? Is there a taste of salt of the water?

shane0007

jj232000 wrote: »

shane0007 wrote: »

jj232000 wrote: »

Hi,

I am looking for some advice on water softeners! Were living in a Three bed cottage in the Midland 2 adults and 2 babies!

Our water is very hard! Limescale everywhere! When using the shower the shower head has to be cleaned out once a shower!

I was looking at water2buy.ie. Are these systems any good! Has anyone used them? I would like to try install myself not bad at diy!

Do these systems need the main sink separate for tea cooking etc with salt system? Or do you need to install reverse osmosis system? Just thinking with the babies bottles etc!

Is the metre or timer systems better?

any advice greatly appreciated.

I recently installed a very good one. Can't think of the brand off hand but can give you details later. Cost was €390 + VAT. Excellent system that fits under the sink and it monitors your water usage and regulates the nightly salt wash out to suit your usage. Less usage of salt or not under washing out.
Definitely can be installed by a decent DIY'er. If you send the manufacturer a water sample, they will factory set the wash out for you. They are based in Cork.

Does your system do the whole house? Do you have your main sink attached or septate for drinking etc? Is there a taste of salt of the water?

I installed that particular one for a client. I have one in my own house since 2003.

If your mains water stopcock is under your sink and it shuts off all the mains water to your house then it will filter all water to your house unless you tee the kitchen sink off it before the filter. Some prefer this but I don't but that is just preference.
There is no taste of salt from the water as the water is not passing through salt. The salt is used to backwash the system at night to remove scale build up within the catchment area of the system. This is carried out normally at about 3am but you can change the time if the backwash if required.

jj232000

shane0007 wrote: »

jj232000 wrote: »

shane0007 wrote: »

jj232000 wrote: »

Hi,

I am looking for some advice on water softeners! Were living in a Three bed cottage in the Midland 2 adults and 2 babies!

Our water is very hard! Limescale everywhere! When using the shower the shower head has to be cleaned out once a shower!

I was looking at water2buy.ie. Are these systems any good! Has anyone used them? I would like to try install myself not bad at diy!

Do these systems need the main sink separate for tea cooking etc with salt system? Or do you need to install reverse osmosis system? Just thinking with the babies bottles etc!

Is the metre or timer systems better?

any advice greatly appreciated.

I recently installed a very good one. Can't think of the brand off hand but can give you details later. Cost was €390 + VAT. Excellent system that fits under the sink and it monitors your water usage and regulates the nightly salt wash out to suit your usage. Less usage of salt or not under washing out.
Definitely can be installed by a decent DIY'er. If you send the manufacturer a water sample, they will factory set the wash out for you. They are based in Cork.

Does your system do the whole house? Do you have your main sink attached or septate for drinking etc? Is there a taste of salt of the water?

I installed that particular one for a client. I have one in my own house since 2003.

If your mains water stopcock is under your sink and it shuts off all the mains water to your house then it will filter all water to your house unless you tee the kitchen sink off it before the filter. Some prefer this but I don't but that is just preference.
There is no taste of salt from the water as the water is not passing through salt. The salt is used to backwash the system at night to remove scale build up within the catchment area of the system. This is carried out normally at about 3am but you can change the time if the backwash if required.

Would this system also get rid of the lime build up already in the house? Would a reverse osmosis system be need to further filler drinking water or would it not be needed? If you have name of company I would like to look into the system! Thank you for your help with my questions!

MachooMaan

I got one installed from these guys a few months ago and noticed a difference immediately, http://www.ewtechnologies.ie/
The unit has to be installed wherever the mains is located in your house, if its not under your sink you will probably need to get an RO unit for making babies formula, I think you get a free drinking filter with the unit but its not as good as an RO unit.

aah yes

The smallest volumetric / metered systems from the planet's largest manufacturer with NSF certifications has got to be pretty good value for money if you can get them for under €299 ? maybe plus vat ?



http://www.canature-global.com/?p=32&a=view&r=54


What's important is resin volume or the capacity of the softener, more than the physical size, but generally related to the size.

Typically you could base the size of the softener in litres of ion exchange resin on around 5 or 6 litres per person in the household for hard water between 200 to 400 ppm.

The harder the water say 300 ppm to 500 ppm maybe 6 or 7 litres per person, for a decent sized system based on longer efficient wash cycles, saving water and salt and giving a longer life.


If you buy the smallest type systems, say from 4.5 litre in total, thats around 1 litre resin per person for the average family of 4, so put that on hard water of 400 ppm, and the system is going to be working like the clappers, washing every day or so, using a major amount of water and a fair bit more salt, as resin bed exhaustion may not be fully utilised as the system is forecasting time offset regenerations to forecast calculated resin bed exhausted for any given day.

Sounds complicated ? Basically, the average household on very hard water from 300 ppm to 500 ppm (most houses in the west of rural ireland) need a softener with a resin bed rating of say 22 litres minimum to 28 litres (most desirable.)

Systems from €299 / €399 are going to be the 4 or 5 litre, maybe as much as 8 or 10 litre systems, but are going to cost an arm and a leg to run, to do their job well, and have a much shorter life, eating up to 30% to 40% of your metered water billing, rather than a decent 4%.

If ion exchange resin has a regeneration or backwash life of about 1,000 to 2,000 washes, then if a system washes every day, then in 3 years, that is over 1000 backwashes, and 6 years, over 2,000. That's likely to be the end of an undersized system.

Especially on harder water, over 400 ppm, like much of the west of Ireland.

Especially on family size usage.

A 4 to 8 litre mini softener under the sink, works better for one or two people, that's okay.

Maybe on hard water from 200 / 250 ppm, that would help it out a little.


If you have spent all your money on building a house, furnishing it, and have little left and throw a few hundred at an undersized, under sink water softener, be prepared to fork out, and keep forking out to keep it going.

Instead of getting a commercial level, 4 or 5 hour pro level perfect install, with 10 year warranty, you might end up with a drop kick one hour hack job, and 12 months cover, with an annual charge of €50 to €100 to keep it serviced and within warranty, which could cost another €500 to €1000 in the first 10 years, if it lasts that long.

Plus the extra water and salt use.

Its like if you have spent all your money on a top end caravan, then have nothing to pull it with, so you chuck a few dollars at a motor scooter, and fair enough you get the caravan pulling enough after screaming the engine for 5 minutes to get up to 30 miles per hour, but the moped scooter is soon going to conk out after a few camper outings, and you will be spending most of your time at the petrol station.

Small, in water softening, does not mean small salt usage, and definitely not small water usage.

The price difference in water softener sizes nowadays, anyway really does not warrant trying to save the odd 100 euros here or there in substantial size differences, every 100 you think you save is going to cost you a 1,000 long term, and the sort of companies at the bottom end of prices, or the odd plumbers, are going to give you possibly bottom end, not necessarily bottom dollar, but top dollar costs in running.

aah yes

Also when looking for a water softener it is important how it is controlled, look at the break down below, simple at first then a bit more detail of what is happening, what could be selling out there ...

1. Timer v's Meter water softeners

2. Old style 1950's / 1960's timer units v's latest technology 2000 / 2010 volumetric / diagnostic systems

3. Post patent 50 year old timer units v's Far east manufactured copies of Post Patent 50 year old timer water softeners


Okay so, below is a picture of an old original 1950's / 1960's clockwork timer valve from the US Fleck Corporation now part of G.E. ...




These type of older style water softener control valves, are a bit ancient as they are timer controlled which means they can both be very heavy on salt in the range of two to four times the level of salt use, say 12 bags of salt even up to 20 bags depending on settings per year, compared to 4 or 5 bags for a good sized volumetric / meter type system.

Also they are "dirty / raw water" or "hard water" brining, as opposed to "clean water" or "soft water" brining. This means they use dirty / raw water or hard water going through the brining channels and brine injectors in the valve control head and then let dirty / hard water into the brine tank. So you end up with more servicing needed, up to annually as opposed to 5 or 10 yearly, and brine tanks end up getting dirty, and need cleaning out to keep the system disinfected. The raw water old timer valves are therefore definitely not recommended for well water uses, as they were originally designed for cleaner chlorinated hard mains water from public or city schemes, definitely not for the dirty well.

They regenerate much more often because they are timer based, so their life is going to be much shorter again warranting much more service, again this is not going to be cheap.

They are "dumb" type valves with no electronic diagnostics, so they won't sense water usage or give clear indications to water leaks or overall consumption or maintain a record of numbers of backwashes, peak water use, electrical surge issues, or will they be able to protect themselves during severe frost if exposed, and they will therefore try to do a regeneration not knowing the valve may be temporarily frost frozen and they will try to destroy themselves as the cogs and gears kick into action fighting against a seized internal shuttle on a timed pre-set cycle.


Okay, consider an old 1950's style timer valve say the Fleck 5600 model from an original manufacturer like Fleck / GE.


Then think about many of the Far East small work shops making ex- Patent copies of this old timer, 50 or 60 years later !!

aah yes

These are the likely sort of far east copy valves of the old Fleck 5600 timer valves ...








some listed here ...

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/water-softening-control-valve.html

aah yes

And recent advertising by the Fleck Corporation ...

aah yes

On the other extreme end of the scale, for the latest technology, advanced electronic metering, diagnostics, and lifetime reliability is the Clack Corporation series of valves, spear headed by the flagship Clack WS1CI model ...

aah yes

So comparing a far east "knock off" timer copy valve of the ancient Fleck 5600 timer water softener valve ...


You could say its the equivalent in transport mobility of getting an old plank of wood, and strapping a skate to it, to make a skate board ...







So comparing the actual ancient Fleck 5600 timer water softener valve ...


You could say its the equivalent in transport mobility of an old moped scooter ...







So comparing the flagship Clack Corporation WS1CI model water softener valve ...


You could say its the equivalent in transport mobility of the latest mid class Mercedes / Lexus / Honda motor car ...

Myles45

Hi GWS,

Love your analogies .
You seem to be fairly knowledgeable on the subject of water filtration. We're in the process of getting quotes for a filter system on our private well & would be interested to get your opinions etc. We have HSE analytical test report. Are you a supplier of filter systems?

Regards
Myles

aah yes

Hi Myles,

Maybe I should have used "the sundial", "the grand-dad clock", and "the Rolex" analogies ?

Okay, better still, "the fake mickey mouse watch", "the original mickey mouse watch", and "the rolex daytona" ?








Its early days yet, but in water softener terms, the US Clack Corporation in business for nearly 70 years, have a state-of-the-art range of water softener valve controls released in the last ten years, and have shaken up the previously lack lustre U.S. control valve market, and their patents are strong and will be good for 50 years, so none of the far eastern workshops are making anything like a copy of the Clack valves, but maybe if you see advertising of water softeners trying to claim to be like the top end water softeners, have a wee head scratch and ask a few more questions to the companies offering possible knock offs ...



Get some pictures and specifications of what they are offering, and ask the top end water dealers how they compare ...



Before you are thinking of parting with some of your hard earned money, even if it does not seem much at first you are handing over ...




Take time to think it over !

TPM

the water test report will show any other issues with the water like
low/high ph
high mineral content : iron,manganese etc,
these are also important as they can affect how filters and softeners work and exactly what filters are needed.
send a copy of the results to a few filter installers and compare systems and prices making sure to compare the service/maintenance required after installation.

Myles45

GWS,

Overall our water isn't too bad, in fact when the well was bored & the water tested 8 years ago they said we could bottle it & sell it, so we never had any treatment at all, just pump & pressure tank.

But we've always been aware of a small amount of limescale, from kettle & shower, Iron from brown slime in attic tank & toilet cisterns & only in the last month or two an increase in hydrogen Sulphide which I presume may have appeared due to the excessive rain this year. This is why we had another test done by HSE.

Boiling water for drinking now due to results.

Results attached & your advice would be much appreciated before I go any further getting quotes. Can you recommend any companies?

Regards
Myles

KK4SAM

This company will tailor your Softener media needs based on your Lab results.


http://www.purotech.ie/

I find them excellent.

aah yes

Myles45 wrote: »

GWS,

Overall our water isn't too bad, in fact when the well was bored & the water tested 8 years ago they said we could bottle it & sell it, so we never had any treatment at all, just pump & pressure tank.

But we've always been aware of a small amount of limescale, from kettle & shower, Iron from brown slime in attic tank & toilet cisterns & only in the last month or two an increase in hydrogen Sulphide which I presume may have appeared due to the excessive rain this year. This is why we had another test done by HSE.

Boiling water for drinking now due to results.

Results attached & your advice would be much appreciated before I go any further getting quotes. Can you recommend any companies?

Regards
Myles

I'm on the case, give me 30 minutes.

aah yes

Based on you test parameters, on the HSE Chemical Check Monitoring test, dozen or so items (ideally you could get a Chemical Audit Monitoring test with 23 items selected), plus the HSE Microbiology report ...


Clostridia perfringens : 1

Coliforms : 14

Escherichia coli : not detected


Turbidity : 4.5 NTU

pH : 7.8 (good)

Iron : 393 ug/L (low to moderate exceedance)

Manganese : 63 ug/L (minor exceedance)

Hardness : 212 mg/L (hard water)


(anecdotal presence of hydrogen sulphide at times, light levels that come and go, the laboratories don't generally give exact reporting for sulphide because it is a volatile gas, and it is best monitored on site, everything else they are very good at)

(colour can also be at raised levels at times of heavy rainfall, but in your case generally not too much to worry about long term, no colour reported on sample date)

(Your Langelier Saturation Index, which is an expression of true pH or true scaling, is fairly balanced (slight tendency for scaling) based on the various LSI models of calculation based on pH, total hardness, total alkalinity and using say 15 C to 75 C water temperature range.)


So the things to look at are -

1. Bacteria :

ultraviolet steriliser treatment, follwed up by some form of point of use mechanical barrier filtration method, say sub 1 micron, or better sub 0.1 micron - UF or RO

2. Iron and Manganese also Turbidity :

can be removed entirely to low detection levels as part of a good water softener system, using high spec. resins say Lanxess S1567, or a separate backwash unit, although this is likely overkill in your case. Turbidity measured on the report is likely to be an expression of precipitated iron, and able to be polished off with high spec. softener resin.

3. Hardness :

using a reasonable capacity volumetric water softener for 4 people, (flexible operating range 1 to 12 people), with a high spec. softening resin

4. Hydrogen Sulphide :

this is the number one critical thing that needs exceptionally good monitoring on site to see if it is just entry level 0 to 1 ppm, or if it exceeds 1 ppm in strength.

if it is entry level 0 to 1 ppm, then a small addition of 1 to 2 litres of KDF 85 sulphur removal media added to the water softener bed can polish off this

if any higher than 1 ppm say nearer 2 ppm or more, then maybe 2 litre KDF 85, plus a 10x54" carbon polisher after (before the UV system), or aeration.


for sulphur entry level, we are talking running a kitchen cold tap at full blast, and only being able to smell the odour with your nose right up to, nearly touching the water stream

for slightly higher sulphur level approaching or exceeding 1 ppm, you can stand back a few feet from the sink and smell sulphur as soon as the tap is running for a few seconds.


So, the typical system cost for all of the above I expect, depending on the company, would be approaching €1800 with a good quality type softener + KDF, ultraviolet, and RO

Without RO and just using a single sub micron filter, then maybe €1500 ? (I recommend an RO, try to avoid the basic far east type standard RO systems if you can)


DIY package would be around €1000 instead of €1800, basic warranty, no free onsite cover. Its recommended to get a good company to assess, configure and install, and provide warranty and service. Could save you an arm and a leg long term. Also a bad company could cost you an arm and a leg also, either way, so be very careful, do the homework.

leeomurchu

gws wrote: »

DIY package would be around €1000 instead of €1800, basic warranty, no free onsite cover. Its recommended to get a good company to assess, configure and install, and provide warranty and service. Could save you an arm and a leg long term. Also a bad company could cost you an arm and a leg also, either way, so be very careful, do the homework.

http://www.galwaywater.ie/

Would this be a recommended company

aah yes

What Myles is looking for is a recommended company, somewhere in his region, with plenty of super happy local customers ..

Not just a good company, that give out good recommendations !



edit ...

oops, should say, there are firms working nationally, sometimes with multiple vans, that work in adjoining counties and further afield able to take on higher volumes of work and cover calls on a weekly basis around and about, so although there are a good few smaller local operators, check out the larger ones also covering a wider area that offer the service and back up. shop around

Myles45

gws wrote: »

What Myles is looking for is a recommended company, somewhere in his region, with plenty of super happy local customers ..

Not just a good company, that give out good recommendations !

Spot on there GWS, I did wonder if you may actually have been affiliated to leeomurchu's suggested company as your initials appear to be the same

Anyway, our hydrogen Sulphide I think may well be approaching the 2ppm side as you definitely do not need to put your nose close to the tap, in fact I would highly recommend standing at least 3 feet away to avoid a good nose full of egg :eek:

My first & only quote so far is as follows:

10 x 54 CR200 (For the removal of Iron, Manganese & Hardness of the water)

5gpm Ultra Violet Unit (For the removal of Bacteria from the water)

5 Stage Reverse Osmosis Unit (For the removal of sodium from the water)

Air blower System (For the removal of sulphur gas from the water)

Total cost of supply & installation of the above units is €2800.00 inc VAT

How would this look to you? Should I divulge the company?
Any preference for the Carbon polisher over the air blower for the sulphur?

Myles

aah yes

KK4SAM wrote: »

This company will tailor your Softener media needs based on your Lab results.


http://www.purotech.ie/

I find them excellent.

They are not a bad company, long established and well managed.

They do aim for quality, and have definitely not aimed at the lower end of the market.

They should be able to provide what they call "Media Specification Sheets" for the types of softening or other medias needed to do the water treatment, what the operating conditions are for the media, etc.


When looking at operating conditions of media, check ...

1. Media bed height - (what size of vessel) how much media do you fill in the vessel, and how high do you fill the vessel.

2. Under bedding - is there a gravel support media recommended at the bottom of the vessel ?

3. Bed Expansion - how much does the manufacturer of the media recommend the bed expands under backwash?

4. Freeboard - how much clear space above the media bed does the manufacturer recommend to allow the bed to expand in order to release its regular accumulation of dirt and debris, and precipitated contaminants (VERY IMPORTANT !)

5. Limitations - Does the Media in question, not like certain parameters, say sulphur, chloride etc. ? Does it require a certain water chemistry, say pH limitations or dissolved oxygen content (THIS IS IMPORTANT), or regeneration using sodium chloride or a highly oxidised feedstream or regenerant ?

6. Service flow - what is the level of water flow in litres per minute, the media can sustain and provide filtering for at the same time ?

7. Backwash flow - what level of water flow does the media ultimately need to be backwashed, is the pump size and pressure up to the job ?

8. Commissioning - does the media need to be soaked for 10 minutes or an hour or so before use, does it need several rapid backwashes to clear out initial fines, or excess colour ?

9. Backwash frequency - how often after installation and commissioning does the media need to backwash, based on days or volume, or a combination of volume and maximum days back up ?

10. Regeneration - is the media regenerated using a separate regerant ? - salt, permix, etc. or just a backwash media, water only. Are certain salts recommended, Axal Pro, or potassium permanganate with granules and not fine powder ?

11. Servicing - when is the media likely to need a major service from the equipment provider, or a refill, based on the level of water contaminants, and the volume of water used daily, and therefore the frequency of regeneration causing wear and tear (attrition) also to the media ?


There are lots of other minor considerations, but its all generally listed on the Manufacturer's Media Spec. Sheets. Make sure your installer has Media Specification Sheets, and works to them religiously !!!


Also, not too important if you have a water treatment wizz kid doing your install, but ask for qualifications, engineering apprenticeship, degree, chemistry boff ?, any industry qualifications like Water Quality Association examinations passed, - Certified Water Specialist level 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 ?? or all of these ??

aah yes

Myles45 wrote: »

Spot on there GWS, I did wonder if you may actually have been affiliated to leeomurchu's suggested company as your initials appear to be the same

Anyway, our hydrogen Sulphide I think may well be approaching the 2ppm side as you definitely do not need to put your nose close to the tap, in fact I would highly recommend standing at least 3 feet away to avoid a good nose full of egg :eek:

My first & only quote so far is as follows:

10 x 54 CR200 (For the removal of Iron, Manganese & Hardness of the water)

5gpm Ultra Violet Unit (For the removal of Bacteria from the water)

5 Stage Reverse Osmosis Unit (For the removal of sodium from the water)

Air blower System (For the removal of sulphur gas from the water)

Total cost of supply & installation of the above units is €2800.00 inc VAT

How would this look to you? Should I divulge the company?
Any preference for the Carbon polisher over the air blower for the sulphur?

Myles

You may not need to divulge the company, I think I have a clue, and the recommendations and pricing are fairly good overall, just a matter as to how they are implemented and serviced.


There certainly is an option to go for a copolymer based resin media, on your water chemistry, the mineral based Crystal Right 200 is not needed in this case, it costs an extra 150 / 200 or more euros per install, it eats salt like the clappers and dear to service, so at your levels of iron and manganese, it simply is a bit way up there. Not a bad go at a system evaluation though, it would do the job.


The aeration system is going to be needed if you have 2 ppm of sulphur and stand back a fair bit from the sink. Just make sure the blower is 40 to 60 LPM with a one metre commercial level diffuser, turning the 300 litre water lank into a sort of deep fat fryer to well be able to vent off the sulphide gas at primary treatment stage, and then use KDF 85 in the water softener.

Also have it checked that it is not 3 ppm and above, that needs a little more attention !

Can you smell the sulphur in the next room to the kitchen, when the taps running ??

aah yes

Not into Hippity Hop sorry,

aah yes

leeomurchu wrote: »

http://www.galwaywater.ie/

Would this be a recommended company

Well, I recommend water treatment options, I may not be yer man personally for jobs further afield, unless I need to help out a company on very tricky jobs, say 100,000 ug/L iron and 10 ppm sulphur !!

I help and advise on the top water dealers nationally, on selection and specification, commissioning and servicing of water treatment systems.

I will come down very hard on the rogues and royster doysters, I will take them down, down to China town !!

leeomurchu

gws wrote: »

Well, I recommend water treatment options, I may not be yer man personally for jobs further afield, unless I need to help out a company on very tricky jobs, say 100,000 ug/L iron and 10 ppm sulphur !!

I help and advise on the top water dealers nationally, on selection and specification, commissioning and servicing of water treatment systems.

I will come down very hard on the rogues and royster doysters, I will take them down, down to China town !!

Ah sure there's no harm in passing on an experienced opinion I'm in the market for a water softening sytem myself and a reverse osmosis system as there's a couple of young uns in the house

I was looking at a clack system and 5 stage RO system I plan on doing the install myself as budget is tight I had it coming in at around €650 + fittings.

It's a job on the to do list.

Would you recommend a specific model/brand yourself?

aah yes

Myles45 wrote: »

Spot on there GWS, I did wonder if you may actually have been affiliated to leeomurchu's suggested company as your initials appear to be the same

Anyway, our hydrogen Sulphide I think may well be approaching the 2ppm side as you definitely do not need to put your nose close to the tap, in fact I would highly recommend standing at least 3 feet away to avoid a good nose full of egg :eek:

My first & only quote so far is as follows:

10 x 54 CR200 (For the removal of Iron, Manganese & Hardness of the water)

5gpm Ultra Violet Unit (For the removal of Bacteria from the water)

5 Stage Reverse Osmosis Unit (For the removal of sodium from the water)

Air blower System (For the removal of sulphur gas from the water)

Total cost of supply & installation of the above units is €2800.00 inc VAT

How would this look to you? Should I divulge the company?
Any preference for the Carbon polisher over the air blower for the sulphur?

Myles

The 10x54 carbon polisher may save a good few bucks and be a viable option on low water use on a water tight house, but without an aeration tank, or infact another system - a Pyrolox backwash unit for sulphur, iron, manganese backwashing as an option, the carbon could be taking a hammering without help and back up, upstream (before hand) of the aeration, and carbon swap outs can be costly on an annual basis, but overall it is a good thing to have anyway if it just does the polishing (odour, colour, taste) and serviced every 2 to 3 years or even 3 to 5 at a push.

aah yes

leeomurchu wrote: »

Ah sure there's no harm in passing on an experienced opinion I'm in the market for a water softening sytem myself and a reverse osmosis system as there's a couple of young uns in the house

I was looking at a clack system and 5 stage RO system I plan on doing the install myself as budget is tight I had it coming in at around €650 + fittings.

It's a job on the to do list.

Would you recommend a specific model/brand yourself?

Yep, Clack WS1CI water softener, usually 10x44 is the optimum. (check test results if well water)

For the RO there is only one optimum system on the market, the holy grail of undersink filter systems is the Aquaphor Morion 50 for municipal water, or Aquaphor Morion 50b for well water.

MikeOis

I have being following various Topics/Treads about water softeners! A lot of information going around! I basically have a lot of limescale in my system and I'm in the market (on a budget) for a water softener!
What are the first steps to do!
Get a water test? Is it necessary? Not to tarnish sales guys, but is reliable!
Size of Unit? 2 Adults 3 Monkies
DIY/Installation? I think this affects the warranty of the unit! (DIY less warranty)
Warranty/Backup! Reliable supplier
Annual Service? If setup correctly, not required! is this correct

Recommend a reliable supplier and approx. cost??

All comments welcome!

aah yes

Hi Mike,

First establish are you on a private well or mains water / group scheme / municipal supply ?

Most county council websites, in their water services section list all schemes and current parametric limits - so, hardness etc, of your particular scheme.

The EPA has a publication called "The Hardness of Irish Drinking Waters" listing all schemes nationally and the approximate hardness comparison using conductivity / TDS with comparison tables.

Check these and then check against a water hardness test using your local water dealer. Ask to see their qualifications ?

If in doubt, test the water at an accredited lab, ideally an INAB (Irish National Accreditation Board) approved lab, usually a HSE or Public Analyst for chemical parameter testing. Hardness test only should be about €10.

The ultimate test is a Langelier test (LSI - Langelier Saturation Index), most HSE / INAB labs do this test based on Total Hardness / Total Alkalinity / pH, plus a factor of temperature usually incoming at 15C will do. Bit more expensive but €20 would be fair.

Langelier measurements reflect the true scaling potential of water, in the positive range 0.5+ to 3+ or more would be very scaling. Zero Langelier would be nicely balanced water, negative values would indicate some level of aggressive water, not necessarily below pH 7 but likely the lower the negative figure.

Go for a professionally installed system, ideally a Clack WS1CI model, from an established Clack installer.


Clack metered systems from 10x24 size cope with any number of variable occupants per household on any level on water hardness.

Sizing therefore would be a matter of available space and proximity to incoming mains or well feed. (Also required; drain and 240 volt feed).

Popular system sizing starts from 10x24 (31" inches high) to 10x35 (42 inches high) to 10x44 (51 inches high) to 10x54 (61 inches high).


All systems use just enough salt and water based on actual volumetric usage, ie. for one person Clack systems do very little work, for ten people they work a little harder.

For better value for money, system longevity, reduced service, lower water use and operational interaction, choose as large a size as space permits.

Domestic systems start from a high capacity specification from the smaller 10x24 models to the higher capacity, ultra long life, low service, annual salt top up, larger models. (from 22 litre ion resin - to 28 litre ion resin)

Starting from a 10x24 system at 800 euros supplied and installed, these cope with any number of people, and can be topped up with salt once every two to four months.

At the top end, try the 10x44 and 10x54 systems which are often discounted below 1,000 euros installed, and can be topped up annually or longer, with a 40 year working life.

The world's leading brand Clack Corporation, are a 68 year old US company, and clear leader in the field of water softening.

If you are offered different, ask where the manufacturer are based, ask for location, google map, telephone number. Is a company offering a more inferior re-branded far east made system, or copy of an old out dated US model, post patent ?


Clack systems have the distinct advantage of not having to be serviced every year. Other firms don't trust their water softeners to last past the first 12 months, and to keep them going they persuade clients to pay €100 extra every year for them to be looked at.

Clack only need a 10 year service interval on domestic municipal water or 5 yearly on the tougher wells. Still only €100 for the one call 10 years later (lets check me maths, that's €10 a year balancing out?)

Usually a further 10 years parts, labour and callout cover is given to the 20 year stage. Again, modest health check or light service at the 20 year interval taking the system well into the 30 years and beyond. No other systems last as long as Clack, or are as low cost to run.


Running costs for a Clack metered normal capacity (22 ltr resin - 28 ltr resin system) are around 4% to 8% of annual water supply typically a 1/5th to 1/10th the water used compared to small capacity timer softeners using up to 35% or more of the water supply to run them.

Electric use is €1 per year.

Finally, and you will like this, - the salt use for a well specified Clack system is around 1 bag per person per year on some of Ireland's hardest waters exceeding 400ppm total hardness. That's 4 bags for the average family of 4 per year at around €7 a bag of salt. Some rip off stores sell salt at up to €10 per bag, watch out.

(Only use Axal Pro salt in the orange bag - no other salt will perform as good. Axal Pro never clogs up like many other popular brands.)


Do the maths again, a Clack system costing €800 to €900 say, will be perfectly adequate to keep you going for 30 to 40 years, and run on around €35 a year for electric, water and salt, with a ten year service check if you want it, for €100.

A small timer based softener that are sold from €299 in the box DIY, some good, some not so good, will far exceed the costs of running a Clack system within a few short years, and you will generally have just 1 year warranty for a DIY system.

By the time you get a small far east made mini softener from €500 or €600 fitted, again, you are going to get some painful running costs way over €35 a year for exceptionally higher water and salt usage, lets say €50 to €100 a year, plus the extra €100 a year to keep it going on the service and warranty side of things.

My maths say you are going to be out of pocket by year 2 or 3, and probably with a pig in the poke by the 5 or 10 year mark, by going for the mini timer, or even many of the mini meter.

The best mini meter for €299 are the Canature Bio 6 DIY, cheap, cheerful, largest water softener company in the world, you can find them on google, and they have NSF certification, the top level accreditation Clack have and all the best systems. Still not a patch on Clack though.

And for the other flashy, promise the earth type salesmen offering some not quite easily locatable manufactured systems, probably "Made in Ireland !!" (no softener components, vessels, resin, control valves, etc, are made in Ireland, no such component manufacturers exist, all of the top 6 are in the US and some notable ones in Europe or the far east, but sure they all should have addresses, no one in Ireland sorry, don't be told otherwise, and if they are made in Japan or China, ask where the manufacturing plant is on Google, with the telephone number, and company website.)

NIMAN

Thats great info gws, as I am currently on the verge of getting a water softener and don't know really where to start. I do believe in paying for the best system, even if it costs more up front as long as it is likely to perform better in the long run.

Do I need to get my water sampled first to see what system I would need? And if so, who would be best to do this for me?

I have a family of 2A and 2C, on mains water, with a septic tank. What size of system do you think would be needed, and approximate upfront cost?

aah yes

Hi Niman,

see clip above ...

"Domestic systems start from a high capacity specification from the smaller 10x24 models to the higher capacity, ultra long life, low service, annual salt top up, larger models. (from 22 litre ion resin - to 28 litre ion resin)

Starting from a 10x24 system at 800 euros supplied and installed, these cope with any number of people, and can be topped up with salt once every two to four months.

At the top end, try the 10x44 and 10x54 systems which are often discounted below 1,000 euros installed, and can be topped up annually or longer, with a 40 year working life."


okay for your system, stay within the 22 litre to 28 litres resin range. 31" high to 62" high space permitting, larger is more efficient and lower running costs, longer lasting. €800 to €1000 installed with 10 year warranty - parts labour, onsite cover.


see clip above ...

First establish are you on a private well or mains water / group scheme / municipal supply ?

Most county council websites, in their water services section list all schemes and current parametric limits - so, hardness etc, of your particular scheme.

The EPA has a publication called "The Hardness of Irish Drinking Waters" listing all schemes nationally and the approximate hardness comparison using conductivity / TDS with comparison tables.

Check these and then check against a water hardness test using your local water dealer. Ask to see their qualifications ?

If in doubt, test the water at an accredited lab, ideally an INAB (Irish National Accreditation Board) approved lab, usually a HSE or Public Analyst for chemical parameter testing. Hardness test only should be about €10.

The ultimate test is a Langelier test (LSI - Langelier Saturation Index), most HSE / INAB labs do this test based on Total Hardness / Total Alkalinity / pH, plus a factor of temperature usually incoming at 15C will do. Bit more expensive but €20 would be fair.

Langelier measurements reflect the true scaling potential of water, in the positive range 0.5+ to 3+ or more would be very scaling. Zero Langelier would be nicely balanced water, negative values would indicate some level of aggressive water, not necessarily below pH 7 but likely the lower the negative figure.


first ask yerself are you on mains water or private well !!

Cheers

NIMAN

gws,

Again thanks for a very detailed reply.

I checked my local CoCo website and although I can see water quality results, I do not see hardness mentioned.

I also checked out the EPA website and again can see nothing, am I looking right?

I might give my CoCo a call tomorrow and see if they can provide any info for me.

Re: labs and tests, I emailed 3 or 4 around the country, telling them I basically wanted a test of hardness as I was about to invest in a softener, and I got quotes ranging from €15 to €130. Vast!

Your info has tempted me a lot in investing in one, I think it would be money well spent.

Could you tell me if you install a system, would it gradually clear out existing limescale in your home, or is that there and not for shifting?

Final question, the entry point for water to come into my house was, I thought, in the utility room as there was a copper pipe coming out of the ground to the sink thats in there. I don't know much about how construction works, but I then realised that my detached garage has water supply in it too. So not sure if the main supply would be to the garage then over to the house, or to the house with a branch off to the garage? It would be ideal if the system could be installed in the garage rather than the house, but either way would be possible.

aah yes

Hi NIMAN,

Access to information on drinking water quality in Ireland has improved over the years, and the Minister for Environment, Community, and Local Government issued a circular on 20th July 2009, requesting Water Services Authorities (WSA's) basically county councils to provide up to date information on the quality of drinking water on their respective websites. The EPA follow up with compliance studies annually to monitor improvements in WSA reporting.

Under EU directives, also EPA and HSE drinking water quality compliance, total hardness is not seen as a potability issue and is omitted on basic testing such as Check Monitoring, but is covered under Audit Monitoring, and reporting values vary, but there are ways to track down typical hardness levels, if they have yet escaped the eye of the public.

Okay, so for county council websites, find your scheme and its parameters, scroll down to conductivity, click on it to find the graph and figures for conductivity and look at the mean figure (average).

For ranges of water hardness with their corresponding (approximate) ranges of conductivity, use the figures below ...


Soft Water (total hardness) = 0 - 50 mg/l [ppm] = under 160 uS/cm

Mod Soft W (total hardness) = 51 - 100 mg/l [ppm] = 160 - 230 uS/cm

Slightly Hard (total hardness) = 100 - 150 mg/l [ppm] = 230 - 340 uS/cm

Moderat Hard (total hardness) = 150 - 200 mg/l [ppm] = 340 - 410 uS/cm

Hard water (total hardness) = 201 - 300 mg/l [ppm] = 410 - 550 uS/cm

Very Hard W (total hardness) = over 300 mg/l [ppm] = over 550 uS/cm


Don't worry to much about the general translation of hardness through conductivity and for values over 550 uS/cm, either way you will get a realistic idea of the level of hardness to start you off for the graphs with stable curves.

Most rural schemes in county galway have stable conductivity values (and hardness values) for example they are around 650 uS/cm to 750 uS/cm which would translate to approaching and exceeding 400 mg/l or ppm of Total Hardness give or take 20 or 30 ppm either way. They're hard folk the Galway lot !

If you look at say www.galway.ie the Galway Co Co website, and find the Inishere island scheme and click on conductivity, there are some crazy maximum and minimum figures for conductivity, obviously there are some strange things happening on that island we won't go too far into for now. Either way, Galway as a City water supply met compliance in 2011 at 100% for microbiological compliance and 100% for chemical compliance, and the first WSA in Ireland to fully implement the Water Safety Plan approach, a fair improvement since 4 years earlier in 2007 with their Crypto woes, still moderately hard water though !


To save scouting on the EPA website for hardness reporting especially the 100 odd PDF pages of the latest "The Provision and Quality of Drinking Water in Ireland - 2011", not the most exciting of reads for the average layman, I can say they have a publication section and should be able to provide for a small fee of a few euros, a hard copy of "The Hardness of Irish Drinking Waters", either through the site directly, over the phone, email, or in writing.

County Councils probably don't focus too much on the issues of hardness, although they may have past Audit Monitoring test figures on hand that should include Total Hardness for schemes if they are happy to track them down, and of course local HSE laboratories will be more than happy to test for a hardness sample, probably at the €15 level, than the more expensive private labs. (and more accurately too.)

I have seen plenty of private labs make regular and completely brutal dog's dinners of the simplest tests for hardness, and charge the cost of a small goat to do them. They probably have been using unclean or oxidised TDS testing probes and come up with figures often 100 ppm out, where 1% or 2% should be nearer the norm, and some have quoted figures 100 ppm out of range and yet added two decimal places after what should be a round total, just to give the impression of accuracy. Never from a HSE lab so far, touch wood, after hundreds of tests I have seen, - they must use the more careful and accurate chemical titration tests I expect.

I should have mentioned, you can buy small titrant based hardness testing kits from around €10 or €20 from various outlets or Hach testing strips that give a general range from €1.


Finally, yes, a water softener will indeed remove all existing limescale throughout a household over a period of time. Soft water passing over limescale will gradually dissolve it.

Its simple enough, it is why water becomes hard in the first place, as water falls from the clouds as soft water having been evaporated into vapour from the lower environment and gathered to be condensed in rain clouds, nature's kind of distillation process if you will, - rainwater then picks up CO2 in the atmosphere amongst other minor impurities and falls to the earth as a slightly carbonic / acidic cocktail, and so on through miles of underground limestone rocks where calcium carbonates and bicarbonates along with magnesium carbonates and bicarbonates are dissolved into the fresh soft rainwater to eventually make it hard water, to a varying degree depending on the distance travelled, and type of rock encountered, and so on.

When you soften water and remove the hardness / lime / calcium carbonates, etc, it becomes softened water, (not exactly the same as natural soft water, but very nearly), usually without the CO2 tendency of slightly aggressive water, but enough so to allow it to dissolve scale very gradually over months and sometimes years depending how thickly scale has built up inside pipes and on heating elements especially.

You could easily see the results the quickest when softened water is used in kettles, over a few weeks and months, soon the scale dissolves and peels away from the bare metal, leaving it back to practically showroom condition. RO water is best for this, especially after fed from a water softener.

If you were to turn off your household water feed and drain down water to allow a section of copper pipe, say 6 inches, to be cut out of your hot press, and you noticed a thin lining of scale inside the bore, especially in hot pipes than cold pipes, and in older houses a decade or two old, and especially in hard water areas say 300 - 400 ppm, then you could replace the pipe with removable joints, run softened water through the household for the year ahead, and then re-visit the pipe section and check the bore again, and "hey presto", clean pipe.


Finally, finally, positioning / sizing of a water softener - Clack metered (family of 2 to 12 - in a 3 to 6 bedroom house) ideally in these ranking groups ...


A. Garage - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size

A. Boiler house - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size

A. Outhouse - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size

A. Shed - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size

A. External frost protected box enclosure - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size

A. Other suitable enclosed area - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size


B. Utility - tall cupboards - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size

B. Hotpress - access to drain - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size

B. Plant room - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size

B. Cellar - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size

B. Kitchen - tall cupboards - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size

B. Other suitable room - 10x35 / 10x44 / 10x54 size


C. Utility - under press - 10x22 / 10x23 / 10x24 / 10x26 size

C. Hotpress - access to drain - 10x22 / 10x23 / 10x24 / 10x26 size

C. Kitchen - under press - 10x22 / 10x23 / 10x24 / 10x26 size

C. Other suitable room - 10x22 / 10x23 / 10x24 / 10x26 size

C. External frost protected box enclosure - 10x22 / 10x23 / 10x24 / 10x26 size


Z. Converted attic / use bund, drip tray - 10x22 - 10x54

Z. Standard attic / use bund, drip tray - 10x22 - 10x54

(avoid attics if at all possible)

(avoid mini softeners 10 litre resin and below for family use, especially timer units)



It's getting late, this post is getting large and has taken an age to list into detail, and so at another time I will go into more detail about the art of finding the ideal pipe link up from feed supply and all the tricks of routing, locating and getting an "A" Class position and softener size.

A good local installer would be great at this, the worst cowboys would likely drop kick a mini timer softener under yer sink or in the attic like a drive by shooting, (in an hour or less if they had a chance), and be outta town like a bandit on the wanted poster.

oxomoxo

I recently installed the EW Technologies Gold Series 606 system in my home and haven't seen any new limescale build up in the last 3 weeks. They are doing a package deal on their systems at the moment. Our water is from the mains so i knew it was just a water so i knew it was just a water softener i needed.

joeirish

So what's the latest in water softener technology? New house, 2 adults, 2 bathrooms, one kitchen. Would prefer something that is more compact due to lack of space for installation.

Thanks

oxomoxo

joeirish wrote: »

So what's the latest in water softener technology? New house, 2 adults, 2 bathrooms, one kitchen. Would prefer something that is more compact due to lack of space for installation.

Thanks

Metered systems seem to be the way to go. They use less water and salt.

!BigBadBarry

Ok read this thread and decided i need the Clack system and seems CWS are the ones that use them but looking at their site i can't figure out if i get a drinking water filter system too with the water softener or do i have to buy it separately and if i do how much extra will it cost me ? I'm budgeting around 800 for the softener but would be nice if i got a drinking water filter system too for the money so i could get rid of the Brita filter.

Anyone any experience with CWS ? Also they recommend servicing every year, is this compulsory or do i have to option to get it serviced whenever i think it needs it and how much would servicing be 100 yo yos ?

TPM

to get rid of your brita filter you would need to get a water test and that would show what was in your water that needed to be removed.

to keep a system working correctly servicing would be necessary

patsyrockem

I got a clack water softener and a drinking water tap installed last year and we are happy with the results. I just need to know how often do these need to be serviced. I have used about 3 bags of salt in the year and it seems to be working ok. There is a green filter and a post carbon filter on the drinking water unit. Do these need changing?? Hope someone can help, thanks.

Calahonda52

patsyrockem wrote: »

I got a clack water softener and a drinking water tap installed last year and we are happy with the results. I just need to know how often do these need to be serviced. I have used about 3 bags of salt in the year and it seems to be working ok. There is a green filter and a post carbon filter on the drinking water unit. Do these need changing?? Hope someone can help, thanks.

Call the installer, they will tell you

hatchman

patsyrockem wrote:

I got a clack water softener and a drinking water tap installed last year and we are happy with the results. I just need to know how often do these need to be serviced. I have used about 3 bags of salt in the year and it seems to be working ok. There is a green filter and a post carbon filter on the drinking water unit. Do these need changing?? Hope someone can help, thanks.

The clack water softener itself needs no real servicing despite what some installers tell you. If the softener is working ok leave it alone. As for the carbon filter and green filter I can't help. what's the make/type drinking water unit ? Reverse osmosis ?

patsyrockem

The installer has rang me a few times in the last few weeks saying they are in the area and would service it for 150eu.:rolleyes: To me it sounds like " we were laying tarmac in the area and we have a lorry load leftover."
150 euro after a year sounds a bit much to me, maybe I'm wrong but I would like to make sure first.

Yes it is reverse osmosis.

TPM

aah yes wrote: »

The best quality drinking water system with highest efficiency on the market comes with 5 years worth of filters and only €100 needs spending in the following 5 years, so 10 years running from €100 or €10 per year, and much better quality water, half the water used saving around 10,000 litres per year and a saving of up to €30 a year on electric or another €300 saving of electric over 10 years over the older conventional electric pumped models of 95% of the usual Chinese manufactured models ...

http://www.aquaphor.ie/product/morion-ireland-100/

I am not familiar with the linked unit but you always have to take statements like that with a pinch of salt (no pun intended)

"up-to 5 years" can mean anything
1 person using 1 liter of water a day for 5 years => 1825 liters
4 people using 1.5 liters a day for 1 year => 2190 liters
this is without allowing for incoming water quailty

you need solid numbers to do relative comparison

just to repeat this is not direct reference to the linked unit just a general comment about claims and comparisons

hatchman

TPM wrote:

"up-to 5 years" can mean anything 1 person using 1 liter of water a day for 5 years => 1825 liters 4 people using 1.5 liters a day for 1 year => 2190 liters this is without allowing for incoming water quailty

I'll take up to 5 years well before I'll be back every year to service it and charge you 100 euro plus !!!

aah yes

TPM wrote: »

I am not familiar with the linked unit but you always have to take statements like that with a pinch of salt (no pun intended)

"up-to 5 years" can mean anything
1 person using 1 liter of water a day for 5 years => 1825 liters
4 people using 1.5 liters a day for 1 year => 2190 liters
this is without allowing for incoming water quailty

you need solid numbers to do relative comparison

just to repeat this is not direct reference to the linked unit just a general comment about claims and comparisons

statements such as "up-to 5 years" means anything up to 5 years


statements such as "comes with 5 years worth of filters" will have the provision with ensuring 5 years filter cover ...


... of drinking water on mains water or most wells (not heavily contaminated without pre-filtration)

... typical family usage of 3/4/5/6 people

... an average family use of 10 litres a day or variable use from 1 to 20 litres per day

aah yes

so pushing the boundaries, 20 litres a day, over 5 years, 6 people in family, on a well

some days 50 litres used ?

overall 5 year cover - all filters free in the first 5 years, maybe then €100 over the next 5 years


but say maybe in highest 1% or 2% of the water usage spectrum say ... 30 litres every day, 8 people, on a slightly dirty well, no pre-filtration or softening, then I expect slightly earlier servicing 3 to 5 year

nothing major out of the ordinary

aah yes

also "pinch of salt" would not be so much of a pun in the case of a drinking water filter ?


maybe you would relate this to something different such as a water softener, which although use salt in their regeneration cycle, they do not have any salt in the softened water provided

carltonleon

Right I am a complete novice at this so forgive me if these qustions seen silly.

Does this Morion Ireland – 100 system do the whole house of is it just a drinking water system or is there a difference ? I really don't know how these systems work at all as you can tell

Does anyone have a price on the Morion Ireland – 100 system ?

TPM

aah yes wrote: »

statements such as "up-to 5 years" means anything up to 5 years


statements such as "comes with 5 years worth of filters" will have the provision with ensuring 5 years filter cover ...


... of drinking water on mains water or most wells (not heavily contaminated without pre-filtration)

... typical family usage of 3/4/5/6 people

... an average family use of 10 litres a day or variable use from 1 to 20 litres per day

As i have already said i was just making a general comment on "up-to" claims
which in fairness you have agreed with

comes with 5 years of filters would be a completely different statement, mind you I did not notice this on the link provided just "Extra service cartridge set. To allow up to 5 years of running"

aah yes wrote: »

overall 5 year cover - all filters free in the first 5 years, maybe then €100 over the next 5 years

again didnt notice this in the link and how does the user know when filters need to be changed, is there an indicator, does someone call around to check them, is it a guess or is the water tested and expected filter lifenoted at time of installation

aah yes wrote: »

also "pinch of salt" would not be so much of a pun in the case of a drinking water filter ?


maybe you would relate this to something different such as a water softener, which although use salt in their regeneration cycle, they do not have any salt in the softened water provided

reference was to the thread that the post is in, water softeners and their use of salt.


i am not familiar with the linked unit, and if does have free filters for 5 years would appear to be a reasonable unit (depending on initial cost)
I still urge people to get water tested before considering any filtration to ensure they dont spend money on filters that they dont need or are unsuitable. and to ensure any "up-to" claims and service costs are backed up and explained.

and yes there are people charging well over the top for filter servicing