motherhood

mariaalice

I had though of punting this in the parenting forum but thinking about it.....it really is more of a female issue.

Dose the current fashion of makeing a fetish of motherhood annoy.

Michaelle Obama's surgery semantical ideas of being mom in chief is a good example of this, another one is motherhood is the hardest and most rewarding job in the world.

I love my children dearly and like to think I did a good job of being a mother but I don't want to be told by society I am doing something marvelous.

meeeeh

I don't really care how wives of American politicians sell their family image but I do dislike the whole mummy obsession. And you can start with female journalists in Saturday edittions who feel the need to bore everybody with their pregnancy/baby stories. Indo and Times magazine are both guilty of it. Then it's the organic food for little darlings, all the family activities, family breaks... It just seems that the "family lifestyle" is the thing that sells at the moment. And there is the glowing pregnant woman myth which annoys the hell out of me. Anyway I'm ranting but i'm really sick of perfect mummy image that showed down our throats.

eviltwin

It annoys me too. Don't get me wrong I love being a mum but its just one part of who and what I am, its not the thing that defines me and I hate how everything I read seems to obsess about it. We're becoming so Americanised about the whole thing from baby showers to those stupid looking nappy cakes, to people posting every little detail of their baby on FB etc etc. I wish people would just get on with it and stop making a big production out of it.

Ellsbells

meeeeh wrote: »

It just seems that the "family lifestyle" is the thing that sells at the moment. .

It is of course because the level of births every year with 75k+ new babies - 150k+ parents and 300k+ grandparents (never mind aunts / uncles / godparents)... It's easy picking as they appeal to the sentiment of family to generate sales and with this many people associated a new baby it's easy to see why..

meeeeh

Ellsbells wrote: »

It is of course because the level of births every year with 75k+ new babies - 150k+ parents and 300k+ grandparents (never mind aunts / uncles / godparents)... It's easy picking as they appeal to the sentiment of family to generate sales and with this many people associated a new baby it's easy to see why..

Oh I know, it doesn't make it less annoying though. I also realize that hotels have to replace "weekend spa break crowd" with somebody but it just seems that doing "nothing in particular" with kids is depriving them of their chances in life. Which is complete rubbish.

Ellsbells

mariaalice wrote: »

Micheal Obama's surgery semantical ideas of being mom in chief is a good example of this

But its vote generation!! Whats not to understand here?? All politicians do it, in all countries to all segments of society. Dont see why mothers should be vilified because Michaelle Obama has appealed to her 'peers' for votes under the guise of praising motherhood.

Ellsbells

eviltwin wrote: »

We're becoming so Americanised about the whole thing from baby showers to those stupid looking nappy cakes, to people posting every little detail of their baby on FB etc etc.

But you can apply that across the board!!! The politicians with their 'state of the nation' speeches, people adorned in Abercrombie and Fitch/ Ralph Lauren / Hilfiger, the huge engagement rings and big lavish weddings, the mid Adlantic twang heard so frequently across South Co Dublin etc etc etc. I could go on for a week...

On the other hand there is nothing wrong with change and while I would never have a baby shower myself, the idea of the mother having a day with her friends and receiving gifts is nice... Who cares if its American or Japanese...

mariaalice wrote: »

motherhood is the hardest and most rewarding job in the world.

So what job do you consider harder or more rewarding. For the record I hate the smug mother club but I dont think the job done by mothers should be dismissed either.

eviltwin

Ellsbells wrote: »

But its vote generation!! Whats not to understand here?? All politicians do it, in all countries to all segments of society. Dont see why mothers should be vilified because Michaelle Obama has appealed to her 'peers' for votes under the guise of praising motherhood.

Politically I can get it, its no different to some of our TD's who court the farmers, the country vote, business people etc. You present yourself a certain way and you focus on the people who will "get" you and try and get them on side.

Its the normal day to day thing that I can stand. I'm listening to the radio and in the half hour the show has been on there have been two listener comments from people about their pregnancies/babies. Who are these people that they think anyone cares???

Just shut up!!

Ellsbells

eviltwin wrote: »

in the half hour the show has been on there have been two listener comments from people about their pregnancies/babies. Who are these people that they think anyone cares???

Just shut up!!

Oh yeah I HATE baby bores.. The media are to blame for that then too as they are giving these people airtime.

eviltwin

Ellsbells wrote: »

But you can apply that across the board!!! The politicians with their 'state of the nation' speeches, people adorned in Abercrombie and Fitch/ Ralph Lauren / Hilfiger, the huge engagement rings and big lavish weddings, the mid Adlantic twang heard so frequently across South Co Dublin etc etc etc. I could go on for a week...

On the other hand there is nothing wrong with change and while I would never have a baby shower myself, the idea of the mother having a day with her friends and receiving gifts is nice... Who cares if its American or Japanese...



So what job do you consider harder or more rewarding. For the record I hate the smug mother club but I dont think the job done by mothers should be dismissed either.

The way everything is celebrated now is a pain, we are taking our inspiration from the way the Americans do it - or a certain section of Americans - and trying to make it the norm.

I have friends living there who would never have a bridal or baby shower, to them its something you see people on reality shows do but we see it and think its normal so we adopt it.

Just to add I don't think there is anything wrong with celebrating a life event but why do we have to make such a big production about it or tell everyone about it?

Ellsbells

eviltwin wrote: »

Just to add I don't think there is anything wrong with celebrating a life event but why do we have to make such a big production about it or tell everyone about it?

I think we are actually agreeing with each other

Mothers of Ireland stop droning on about your sprogs - nobody really wants to know...

Sonics2k

mariaalice wrote: »

I had though of punting this in the parenting forum but thinking about it.....it really is more of a female issue.

Dose the current fashion of makeing a fetish of motherhood annoy.

Micheal Obama's surgery semantical ideas of being mom in chief is a good example of this, another one is motherhood is the hardest and most rewarding job in the world.

I love my children dearly and like to think I did a good job of being a mother but I don't want to be told by society I am doing something marvelous.

It's kind of a 'damned if you, damned if you don't' thing.

Quite often we'll see people, celebs, politicians get lambasted for claiming that being a parent isn't the hardest job in the world, and the media will rise up against them and talk about how they are insulting stay at home mothers and fathers.

And just as often we'll see someone make the claim that being a stay at home mother/father is the hardest job in the world, and everyone else loses the plot and disagrees.

I was a stay at home father for 3 years to two kids, and it certainly wasn't the hardest job. Tiring, yes. Exhausting at times. But certainly not the hardest job in the world. Working as an ER Doctor, a miner, oil rigger, on a lifeboat and so would be far far harder.

eviltwin

I will admit I have found being a mother really hard work at times. In the early years of both of my kids lives it was the hardest thing I have ever done. I can't compare it to jobs I haven't done but I struggled a lot. I suppose PND had a lot to do with that, its hard to even find the energy to wash yourself when you are depressed, looking after kids was like nothing I have ever known back then.

Its going to be different for everyone, some people have really easy kids, some have lots of support etc. Some people just sail through it and make it look a doddle but it can be hard for some people.

When people say that is not always that they are fishing for compliments, sometimes they really are saying it as they find it.

Ellsbells

Yeah I have a pretty sick 9 month old baby and you know what I know its the hardest job ill ever do but you know thats fine because its my choice. TBH, if junior was hale and hearty then I dont think it would be a very hard job....

When I go out I want to hear everyone elses news as my life is rather dull at the mo...

I do think baby bores are just bores in general. Before the babies they were wedding bores, engagement bores, exam stress bores etc etc.

I do find, also in TLL, women who dont have kids, the most critical of women who do. I opened a thread here a while back about how you have changed since becoming a mother and was practically told to sod off to Parenting. Its funny, i thought Mothers were still women too ???

Das Kitty

Ellsbells wrote: »

I do find, also in TLL, women who dont have kids, the most critical of women who do.

I have not found this at all. Child-free women in TLL approach it from their own pain points, i.e. how parenthood is painted as the pinnacle of female endeavour. (This is also one of my pain points even though I am a mother) They feel under represented in the media and in general.

Obviously there will always be posters who stick thier oars in against "breeding culture" and be unpleasant about it, but the majority of child-free posters on here have been very supportive of me as a parent.

On the topic of this thread. I think the mummying that I see everywhere is grating. In the car this morning I cringed at a formula ad where it said something like "Mary breasfeed her little darling because she wanted to give her the best start in life." Setting aside the obvious ploy to placate the breastfeeding lobby for a moment, isn't that just the most torturous sentence? It's a shaming sentence, you don't breastfeed==bad mother. You don't buy our formula==bad mother.

Now I am well aware that shame and guilt are major factors in advertising but seriously, you've just been tasked with keeping another helpless human being alive, do you really need that crap rained down upon you from all angles?

And then of course individuals follow suit. "Look at all the organic stuff my baby is eating!" "Look at all these amazing things I do to stimulate my child whilst taking no personal time for my own needs." People seem to be dead set on the need to prove that they are not bad parents when that should be assumed barring any contrary evidence.

I posted something about my kid on facebook yesterday. He said some things that sounded very creepy out of context and I thought it was funny. I got a private message from a friend advising me to stop letting him watch TV. I took great pleasure in informing her that the suspect content came from a picture book. Bad, bad books!

There's mummy stuff every-bloody-where and it feels like people think they can say what they like about your parenting, because they believe it's in the child's best interests.

meeeeh

Speaking of ads, if I hear again the radio add for Mount Carmel Maternity Clinic, I'm gonna scream. It's hard to take that much sugar in one go. Why do they feel the need to find somebody with really profound and meaningful voice like giving birth is the pinnacle of human achievement or some profound experience. In best case scenario it's just messy and if you are lucky you end up having a child that won't hate you in twenty years time.

Ickle Magoo

meeeeh wrote: »

...like giving birth is the pinnacle of human achievement or some profound experience

What annoys me is when ^^ these two get smushed together...making it an over-indulgent crime to consider creating a human being or the enormous physical and emotional [not to mention life] changes it necessitates for many as being a profound experience.

I had a horrendous pregnancy first time around; my pelvis split, I got eclampsia, I had 20mins notice my son was arriving and would be nearly 7wks premature...I wouldn't get to see him for nearly 24hrs and that's when the horrors of being a parent with a child in the NICU really start. That's before we ever got to take him home and do "normal" stuff. How could I NOT consider that a profound experience?

Pinnacle of human achievement tho? No. My body clearly doesn't like being pregnant to the point I've been told by my gynae/obs not to have any more kids - on the other hand it is clearly an achievement. I certainly felt an achievement at managing to survive intact and marriage intact looking after 2 babies 15months apart without requiring psychiatric intervention. To some of us motherhood doesn't come easily, in any respect - I'm actually starting to enjoy it more and more as my kids get older.

So rather than annoy me, I'm just completely baffled at the whole industry set up around making mothers and non-mothers feel bad about themselves and why we let it continue/propagate it?

Ellsbells

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm just completely baffled at the whole industry set up around making mothers and non-mothers feel bad about themselves and why we let it continue/propagate it?

I agree but I think mothers are their own worst enemies. As I said earlier, my baby is quite ill, not deadly ill but time consuming, a lot of work each day ill... I met up with friends lately for a night out. One of them has a child 2 months older and after she asked and I told her how my baby was doing she said 'I am so lucky my little man is so good'... So he is good but my baby isnt cos he is sick?????? I was very annoyed by that. In hindsight, more so than i needed to be.

In saying that she is very competitive in general and i think women who are all about their houses, cars, jewellery etc are the same about their kids.

meeeeh

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

What annoys me is when ^^ these two get smushed together...making it an over-indulgent crime to consider creating a human being or the enormous physical and emotional [not to mention life] changes it necessitates for many as being a profound experience.

I might be insensitive and you were unlucky in your pregnancy but having a child is just biology, bringing them up without screwing them up is a profound achievement. But I will admit that i'm not the most emotional person on the planet so maybe I'm missing something.

Ickle Magoo

Tell that to someone who is on their third + round of IVF. Just out of interest, are a couple allowed to say that they found adopting a profound experience? Since it isn't biology with them are they "allowed" to have any kind of emotional connection to their life-changing experience?

The bottom line is, who are you to say what I can or cannot find a profound experience in MY life? This is what does get my goat about the whole "who are those parents" type stuff. For me it's a simple case of acknowledging the different situations people find themselves in and throwing in a modicum of common sense/empathy.

"Parenting" is like "life"...everyone's experiences are different - so of course assuming a one-size fits all causes friction. Why would someone with no kids take it upon themselves to determine what parenting means to parents? Why would someone with loads of help on hand, a car, etc, etc refer to parenting as a doddle with not an iota of thought for how that makes a single parent with no car or someone who's been widowed and looking after three kids themselves and struggling feel? Even out-with the extremes of situation - some people just find pregnancy/birth/babies/parenting in general hard going. I don't understand why that can't be acknowledged rather than the bizarre and utterly unnecessary attempt to portray parenthood as being a complete non-event when is patently obvious that to many, it is anything but.

Honey-ec

The baby shower thing really grinds my gears. So now I've to get you a shower gift, another gift when the baby is born and a christening gift when that rolls around too??? Sod off.

Ellsbells

Honey-ec wrote: »

The baby shower thing really grinds my gears. So now I've to get you a shower gift, another gift when the baby is born and a christening gift when that rolls around too??? Sod off.

I suppose you dont have to go and I assumed you only gave a christening gift if you were going to the christening?

Honey-ec

Ellsbells wrote: »

I suppose you dont have to go and I assumed you only gave a christening gift if you were going to the christening?

If I'm invited to a christening, I'd give a gift, whether I can attend or not.

Showers, no. And no, I don't go to them. What's next, bridal showers too?

meeeeh

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

"Parenting" is like "life"...everyone's experiences are different - so of course assuming a one-size fits all causes friction. Why would someone with no kids take it upon themselves to determine what parenting means to parents? Why would someone with loads of help on hand, a car, etc, etc refer to parenting as a doddle with not an iota of thought for how that makes a single parent with no car or someone who's been widowed and looking after three kids themselves and struggling feel? Even out-with the extremes of situation - some people just find pregnancy/birth/babies/parenting in general hard going. I don't understand why that can't be acknowledged rather than the bizarre and utterly unnecessary attempt to portray parenthood as being a complete non-event when is patently obvious that to many, it is anything but.

Just to make it clear, I have one child, I'm pregnant with second and I had three miscarriages. As I said, I might have not suffered like you but because I don't find birth a profound experience, I suddenly can't be parent?

And what has that to do with adoption or anything else, I don't know. I didn't say that holding a, loving a or taking care of child is not profound, I was talking about the act of giving birth which I don't see as being any more profound as signing papers for adoption. Besides I never said that everybody should feel like me. Also I don't know where I said I don't find parenting hard going. I have a very lively and stubborn boy whom I love dearly but god, he can be hard work. So you assume I have no children and could feel no empathy towards parents, just because I find all the fuss around the actual giving birth annoying?

mariaalice

I don't know what happened to this thread I though I was clear.

Of course on an individual basis becoming a mother is a profound experience for the mother concerned I was talking about making a fetish of motherhood or if you like the cult of motherhood I was not saying motherhood is not important.

Millicent

mariaalice wrote: »

I don't know what happened to this thread I though I was clear.

Of course on an individual basis becoming a mother is a profound experience for the mother concerned I was talking about making a fetish of motherhood or if you like the cult of motherhood I was not saying motherhood is not important.

I think this has always been the way, sadly, just that the internet has made it more obvious to the world. I've had that thing where women feel sorry for me, apparently, because I don't have/want kids (I have a good education and an intense interest in my career. That seems not to be a good enough explanation though.) That said, I can imagine that pity was a thousand times worse for women of my mother's and grandmother's respective generations.

What does seem to have happened since the advent of the internet is the solidifying of such opinions. With such a large audience available to agree with people that think motherhood is the pinnacle of the human existence, the opinion is buoyed where it might not have been before. Where before people with those experiences might have felt like a lone voice in the dark, finding others to support the viewpoint in the public arena seems to strengthen that belief.

Ellsbells

I really don't see it - I never felt that before I had a baby. In reality a lot of the mothers said they were jealous of my free lifestyle.

I find motherhood very isolating and that is rarely talked about.

Millicent

Ellsbells wrote: »

I really don't see it - I never felt that before I had a baby. In reality a lot of the mothers said they were jealous of my free lifestyle.

I find motherhood very isolating and that is rarely talked about.

It's rare, tbh. Not a large amount of mothers, by any estimation.

pwurple

Millicent wrote: »

It's rare, tbh. Not a large amount of mothers, by any estimation.

What's rare? The feeling of isolation is far from rare. Most of my friends talk about it. That and the feeling of your identity being stripped away. You go from a normal active woman with a job and friends, to just being a pair of milky boobs with a newborn who says mothing in return for months on end.

It passes as they get older.

I think the alleged cult of motherhood is nothing more than women banding together over some shared experiences. What are we talking about here... Two women of the same age pushing buggies together? Scary stuff. When it is hijacked by marketing it gets very annoying alright. But doesn't everything that is marketted strongly get annoying? Take every lynx ad ever made for example. Or the eircome study hub ad with the obnoxiously scripted child.

Ickle Magoo

meeeeh wrote: »

So you assume I have no children and could feel no empathy towards parents, just because I find all the fuss around the actual giving birth annoying?

I made no such assumptions - other than commenting on those who make blanket statements on the expectations others "should" feel based on their own experiences, which often don't tally with those they deem to speak for...I also didn't suggest you could have no empathy tho you suggested yourself you might be insensitive...

pwurple wrote: »

I think the alleged cult of motherhood is nothing more than women banding together over some shared experiences. What are we talking about here... Two women of the same age pushing buggies together? Scary stuff. When it is hijacked by marketing it gets very annoying alright. But doesn't everything that is marketted strongly get annoying? Take every lynx ad ever made for example. Or the eircome study hub ad with the obnoxiously scripted child.

I'd agree with that - in the age of modern media everything gets discussed to the nth degree. There are speciality groups and support forums and niches for every conceivable position...and that's bound to mean a few that everyone can't understand/don't get/have no interest in...regardless of topic.

Morag

Ellsbells wrote: »

I find motherhood very isolating and that is rarely talked about.

Very much so, tbh I am not sure I would have stayed as sane if it wasn't for the internet and sites like this one over the years.

I think as more people have the internet and there has been a rise in 'Mommy' sites and a certain type of culture esposing being a parent (mostly a Mom/Mum) as being the ultimate vocation.

And as marketing people look at those sites and the numbers on them then they try get in on those markets, ffs mumsnet in the UK is now being used for 'won't someone think of the children' type lobbying and being used as a platform to call on the government over there. That is maddnness.

I do think it is women with a certain type of drive and ambition which they pour into having the perfect home and the perfect kids, honestly most of them could do with getting a hobby but instead they cling together in certain toddle groups or primary school coffee mornings or their online klatches happy to judge, pass comments and insist that their way is the only way.

It is freaky to see how certain trends come about on those forums and from one to another and try to establish new 'norms' for parenting.