Slid into a junction tonight

relax carry on

As the title says, I slid into a junction tonight. Bit of brown trousers moment as I almost got smacked by a van.

Coming to a junction near home that I use every day. It had been raining most of the day so road was wet enough. Wasn't driving too fast. Probably 40k. Put my foot on the break to slow down and the break shuddered and didn't slow the car down as normal. Kept my foot on the break hoping it would engage but just kept shuddering. Slid into the junction in a straight line, avoided the van (thankfully) and got the car under control again.

Drove off and tried the breaks again with no issues. Now I'm off to a garage in the morning but is like to know peoples thoughts on what the problem could be with the car. And what did I do wrong.

Thanks.

Stheno

Sounds like your abs kicked in? It feels like the brake is almost kicking back at you?

40k is fast enough if you were approaching a junction?

Wet road, bit of speed, skid, abs kicks in?

Drummerboy08

Sounds like the road was quite greasy, ABS engaged and you touched cloth.

Keeping your foot on the brake pedal was your mistake IMO, I find it's much better to lift off the pedal and try to engage braking again.

randy hickey

How hard were you pressing the brake pedal- the shuddering you felt may just have been the ABS working.
You may have unwittingly come upon a bit of a diesel spill of some sort.

Also, have a look at your tyres.

S28382

When i seen the title of your post i thought about what i did to my girlfriend tonight:D


On a serious note hope your ok.

Matt Simis

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Sounds like the road was quite greasy, ABS engaged and you touched cloth.

Keeping your foot on the brake pedal was your mistake IMO, I find it's much better to lift off the pedal and try to engage braking again.

It does sound like ABS and nothing is wrong with the car (apart from perhaps $hitty Chinese tyres with no wet grip, OP what brand and thread depth on the tyres?).

On the letting off the brake, he shouldnt have to or even want to do that with an ABS system though? Thats what the ABS is already doing, letting it off and on manually will interrupt the process. You would let it and on without ABS though, to prevent lockup.

ION08

The brake shuddering is the ABS engaging.

There's nothing wrong with the car, you approached the junction too fast given the wet condition of the road, causing you to brake too hard and wheels to lock up.

Try going hard again on your brakes on an empty wet road and you'll see that your brakes will shudder again

Drummerboy08

Matt Simis wrote: »

It does sound like ABS and nothing is wrong with the car (apart from perhaps $hitty Chinese tyres with no wet grip, OP what brand and thread depth on the tyres?).

On the letting off the brake, he shouldnt have to or even want to do that with an ABS system though? Thats what the ABS is already doing, letting it off and on manually will interrupt the process. You would let it and on without ABS though, to prevent lockup.

I know he shouldnt have to release the brakes as that's effectively what the ABS is doing, however I've found that in a situation like this it's actually easier to regain control of the car by coming off the brakes and then going back on.

ABS is often too agressive for it's own good, I find by going on the brakes the second time ABS won't kick in, as you're over a different patch of tarmac with hopefully a bit more grip.

Kenny Logins

'ABS just kicked in, yo!'

Stheno

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I know he shouldnt have to release the brakes as that's effectively what the ABS is doing, however I've found that in a situation like this it's actually easier to regain control of the car by coming off the brakes and then going back on.

ABS is often too agressive for it's own good, I find by going on the brakes the second time ABS won't kick in, as you're over a different patch of tarmac with hopefully a bit more grip.

I've had that same experience DB once when I skidded on a patch of black ice.

relax carry on

Thanks for the replys. Had some idea it might be the abs but not sure. The feeling from the break was quite a hard shuddering.
I thought with ABS in a situation like that you just keep your foot on the break and concentrate on steering the car.

Just checked the tires which look in good order. Never checked the makes before but the two on the front are triangle talon and the back two are infinity info 5.

A quick google doesn't rate them highly. Time for a new set me thinks. Any suggestions? Still dropping into a garage though just to be on the safe side.

Stheno

relax carry on wrote: »

Thanks for the replys. Had some idea it might be the abs but not sure. The feeling from the break was quite a hard shuddering.
I thought with ABS in a situation like that you just keep your foot on the break and concentrate on steering the car.

Just checked the tires which look in good order. Never checked the makes before but the two on the front are triangle talon and the back two are infinity info 5.

A quick google doesn't rate them highly. Time for a new set me thinks. Any suggestions? Still dropping into a garage though just to be on the safe side.

Do a search on here and you'll get load so of recommendations for tyres. The first time you experience ABS kicking it can be a bit of a fright if it reacts hard.

CiniO

Stheno wrote: »

The first time you experience ABS kicking it can be a bit of a fright if it reacts hard.

Especially if that first experience is in emergency situation.

That's why I think every driver should try it's car is safe environment (like a big empty parking lot or sth).
Accelerate hard, turn hard, make the car skid, try abs, try esp, etc...
It's way better to be familiar with all that before you need to enounter it in emergency situation.

CiniO

relax carry on wrote: »

I thought with ABS in a situation like that you just keep your foot on the break and concentrate on steering the car.

That's what you are meant to do, but many people unfortunately whenever they start feel shuddering from their brake pedal, either keep it as it is, or even release it a bit.
What you are meant to do, is to press the brake pedal as strong as you can.

On slippery surface ABS can kick in even with very little braking force. But if you put more pressure on the brake pedal, you will still increase braking force.

From your description OP I assume you might have not used full possible braking force, because you were surprices by shuddering.

You might give your ABS a try next time, and just floor the brake pedal in some safe place with no other cars around. Fiddle with it for a bit, and see what difference does it make.

And forgot advices that some guys gave you above about releasing the brake pedal and pressing it again. It makes no sense with ABS.

Stheno

CiniO wrote: »

Especially if that first experience is in emergency situation.

That's why I think every driver should try it's car is safe environment (like a big empty parking lot or sth).
Accelerate hard, turn hard, make the car skid, try abs, try esp, etc...
It's way better to be familiar with all that before you need to enounter it in emergency situation.

I actually think it's an inadequacy of the driving test they only test for "normal" driving.

It's happened to me a few times (three) driving and hitting black ice, and I'm intending to do a course on a skid pan in the next few months to give me the confidence I know I lack when these things happen. As I've had a couple of experiences of it now, I'm more confident, but I want to learn how better to cope.

It can be very hard to find places to practice stuff like this in to be honest for a lot of people.

dingus12

Ahaa the good old Ditch finder Triangles, I wouldn't put them on a silage pit, Op if you value your life and car, throw away the 2 front tyres at least and fit some proper non chinese rubber.

Stheno

CiniO wrote: »

And forgot advices that some guys gave you above about releasing the brake pedal and pressing it again. It makes no sense with ABS.

If you end up panicking as a result of the abs action, sometimes taking the foot off can help with that?

Certainly helped me, I'd only to deal with steering, got that done, and then braked again and found I was ok

CiniO

Stheno wrote: »

I actually think it's an inadequacy of the driving test they only test for "normal" driving.

It's happened to me a few times (three) driving and hitting black ice, and I'm intending to do a course on a skid pan in the next few months to give me the confidence I know I lack when these things happen. As I've had a couple of experiences of it now, I'm more confident, but I want to learn how better to cope.

AFAIK controlling skids is only part of driving test in some Scandinavian countries. Anyway - fair play to them, as I think it should be introduced everywhere.

It can be very hard to find places to practice stuff like this in to be honest for a lot of people.

It might be hard, but it's not impossible.
Nothing is impossible to the willing mind.

I spend hundreds of hours training advanced vehicle control, sometimes in really rural places, and sometimes less rural. I got caught few times and had to cope with penalties. Anyway - I think it was worth every minute, every litre petrol I burnt, and every bit of tyre I wore to improve skills, as those skills saved me from good few accidents over the years.

Stheno

CiniO wrote: »

I spend hundreds of hours training advanced vehicle control, sometimes in really rural places, and sometimes less rural. I got caught few times and had to cope with penalties. Anyway - I think it was worth every minute, every litre petrol I burnt, and every bit of tyre I wore to improve skills, as those skills saved me from good few accidents over the years.

Like I said I'm specifically looking to spend time and money on learning how to control my car in skid situations and I think it's worth every penny.

For a normal driver if you have never engaged ABS it can be a terrible fright.

greenman09

I was going around a round about in Roscommon in June there. Greasy oul morning it was 7 am. Back end of car went from me as I was going round. Ended up facing traffic half way around. Think I was too fast going in along with the wet road. that was a touching cloth moment alright

CiniO

Stheno wrote: »

Like I said I'm specifically looking to spend time and money on learning how to control my car in skid situations and I think it's worth every penny.

Agree

For a normal driver if you have never engaged ABS it can be a terrible fright.

I'd say person who never engaged ABS is not a normal driver, but rather unexperienced driver

Supergurrier

This is why people should slow down with their gears, this is the exact kind of thing that makes coasting stupid (not that im saying you were coasting)

Alanstrainor

Supergurrier wrote: »

This is why people should slow down with their gears, this is the exact kind of thing that makes coasting stupid (not that im saying you were coasting)

The only lesson to take from this is to make sure you have decent tyres fitted.

Slowing down with gears...wtf.

Supergurrier

Alanstrainor wrote: »

The only lesson to take from this is to make sure you have decent tyres fitted.

Slowing down with gears...wtf.

Mechanical pull from switching down gears will sap most of a car's momentum off rather than just clutching and then jamming on the brakes and switching from x gear to 1st when stopped.

Alanstrainor

Supergurrier wrote: »

Mechanical pull from switching down gears will sap most of a car's momentum off rather than just clutching and then jamming on the brakes and switching from x gear to 1st when stopped.

I know gears will slow a car down. But it's not going to change the OP's situation. Stopping in emergencies, or going down hill, no matter how much engine braking you utilise you're not going to have enough force to stop the car in good time.

Supergurrier

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I know gears will slow a car down. But it's not going to change the OP's situation. Stopping in emergencies, or going down hill, no matter how much engine braking you utilise you're not going to have enough force to stop the car in good time.

Going slower as you reach the junction is always a good thing, it certainly couldn't hurt.

First thing i learnt when driving was never to rely 100% on my brakes coming up to a junction, plan ahead

fasttalkerchat

Same thing happened me yesterday actually. Was coming out of a town and started accelerating, then realised there was another ramp and hit the breaks only to shudder like mad. Luckily I was only doing around 40mph so slowed to 20 by the time I hit the ramp.

Supergurrier

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Same thing happened me yesterday actually. Was coming out of a town and started accelerating, then realised there was another ramp and hit the breaks only to shudder like mad. Luckily I was only doing around 40mph so slowed to 20 by the time I hit the ramp.

Was probably a tyre fault more than a braking one, sounds like ABS kicked in and you just didn't have good enough tyres to put the braking force down

fasttalkerchat

Supergurrier wrote: »

Was probably a tyre fault more than a braking one, sounds like ABS kicked in and you just didn't have good enough tyres to put the braking force down

Goodyear tyres with plenty of thread and properly inflated so can't have been that. I probably should have released the break and pressed it again but it was only a ramp and I was curious to see what was happening.

Tallon

I had triangle talons on my old car.. You'd be better off with actually triangles!

When you're changing your pants, do the tyres too

beanie10

dingus12 wrote: »

Ahaa the good old Ditch finder Triangles, I wouldn't put them on a silage pit, Op if you value your life and car, throw away the 2 front tyres at least and fit some proper non chinese rubber.

+1. I had Triangles on Audi a4 when I bought it. Car never felt right, in wet conditions traction control was constantly kicking in. Changed tyres to Avon car feels great now, traction control only kicks in now if I really push hard.

relax carry on

Tallon wrote: »

I had triangle talons on my old car.. You'd be better off with actually triangles!

When you're changing your pants, do the tyres too

Cheers will do.

ArticHare

I had a similar problem for a couple of months once, car freaked out if I tried to stop quickly, had that abs slipping on ice feeling.

it wasn't the tyres, turned out one of my brake disks was cracked, literally, the garage showed it to me

Meesared

Those Triangle tyres are horrendous, had one on my car, thing was a mess sliding all over the place, replaced the two fronts (including the Triangle one) and its made such a difference. Serioulsy its a wonder those things havent been banned.

MrDerp

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I know gears will slow a car down. But it's not going to change the OP's situation. Stopping in emergencies, or going down hill, no matter how much engine braking you utilise you're not going to have enough force to stop the car in good time.

I beg to differ. (Icy) Christmas morning a couple of years ago I was coming down Coach hill in Cork: https://www.google.com/maps?q=Rochestown,+Cork,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=51.875577,-8.399885&spn=0.002265,0.012681&sll=53.345834,-6.252239&sspn=0.017524,0.101452&oq=rochestown+cork&t=h&hnear=Rochestown,+Cork,+County+Cork,+Ireland&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.875658,-8.399937&panoid=CT-hQ-8QRB-uieEr9BUoPQ&cbp=12,343.96,,0,9.37

I was doing 40kph, got surprised by an increase in gradient and tried to ease on the brakes, heard scratching and felt the ABS. No need to panic yet. Disengaged and re-engaged the brakes a couple of times, no joy, car was gaining speed. I quickly dropped into second and released the clutch slowly, 3 times. There's a bad bend in the centre background on street view above. By using my clutch I managed to slow down sufficiently to steer myself to the gravelly section, just off the main road, at the > > > > sign, stopping with the arse of the car 6 inches from the crash barrier.

If I wasn't a driver that always slows down by moving down through the gears, I would have panicked at the lack of brakes and I was either gonna end up in that crash barrier or in a worse situation further down the hill.

Slowing the car down with your gears is an alternative method of controlling your speed that everyone should understand and practice. In my situation, I certainly had enough grip to control the car, but the ABS was over-zealously controlling my braking given the circumstances.

I had relatively new Kumho's on the car (a Focus MkII back then) and had always found them perfectly adequate in the wet. Whether it was a the icy patch, or the tyres that caused the initial kick in of the ABS I don't know, but I can assure you it was only my habit of slowing the car with the gears that stopped me from crashing. I'd felt the ABS before, skidding on the (then, eternally) greasy roundabout outside bewleys on the N32, so it was not a case of surprise like the OP's.

Matt Simis

Meesared wrote: »

Those Triangle tyres are horrendous, had one on my car, thing was a mess sliding all over the place, replaced the two fronts (including the Triangle one) and its made such a difference. Serioulsy its a wonder those things havent been banned.

Bought a car with them on myself, were fine in the dry, but any dampness and the ABS would go mental and no grip at all.

MrDerp

MrDerp wrote: »

...........

I was doing 40kph, got surprised by an increase in gradient and tried to ease on the brakes............

If I wasn't a driver that always slows down by moving down through the gears,...........

Surprised by an increase in gradient? Do you drive with your eyes closed all the time :pac:

In icy conditions 40kph down a hill sounds a tad fast to me anyway.

dgt

I once approached a junction and when the brakes were applied, the master cylinder let go.

Now thats a proper brown trouser moment

650Ginge

Stheno wrote: »

Sounds like your abs kicked in? It feels like the brake is almost kicking back at you?

40k is fast enough if you were approaching a junction?

Wet road, bit of speed, skid, abs kicks in?

Modern abs doesn't pulse anymore in anything I have drove or motorbikes I have ridden either. It just feels like the brakes aren't working. The system tries to give you the most braking it can.

No matter how good the brakes are if the tyres aren't good, then the abs will struggle.

biko

Uniroyal rainexperts

smemon

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I know he shouldnt have to release the brakes as that's effectively what the ABS is doing, however I've found that in a situation like this it's actually easier to regain control of the car by coming off the brakes and then going back on.

ABS is often too agressive for it's own good, I find by going on the brakes the second time ABS won't kick in, as you're over a different patch of tarmac with hopefully a bit more grip.

Most of the time if ABS is kicking in you've got zero time to take your foot off the break... if ABS is engaged then that basically means you're saying "stop the car as soon as possible, imminent impact"... so in that situation there's no time take your foot off the brake.

I've noticed ABS will on occasion kick in under a force i don't believe to be ABS worthy and in those situations you do have time to take your foot off & back on the break, allowing for smoother braking. But when you're in the process of rolling in to a junction, foot to the floor and don't move it until the car stops.

Zubeneschamali

MrDerp wrote: »

I beg to differ.

We're talking about situations where the tyres have little to no grip. If there's no grip for the brakes to bite on, there's no magic extra grip for engine braking to work with.

Engine braking only works through the driven wheels, so it's worse than the brakes on any 2wd car, and doesn't benefit from ABS, so works even less well.

MrDerp

RoverJames wrote: »

Surprised by an increase in gradient? Do you drive with your eyes closed all the time :pac:

In icy conditions 40kph down a hill sounds a tad fast to me anyway.

Well you sort of come around a bend to it on that road. I'd been on the road once before, but not in those conditions.

Either way, you're absolutely right. I was complacently ignorant of the conditions as a section of the left hand side of the road was in shadow and still frozen, while I'd come off gritted and thawed motorway onto a thawed road, and onto this particular road.

Furthermore, I was calling in to a house on that hill (I passed it in the excitement) and I should have planned to come up the hill instead, aborting and walking up if necessary.

It was careless planning by me, I completely blame myself for ending up in the situation given we'd had ice pretty much for a month in Dublin, and I'd spent a 6.5 hr journey driving down 2 days before - enough to be unsurprised at icy patches

That aside, I still maintain that my engine breaking slowed the car in a way the ABS refused to. I know plenty of people that come to a stop in 4th gear all the time who might have struggled in that situation. Once I knew I needed to stop as slowing was not an option, my natural stopping routine got me through it instead of just pressing the brake and hoping the ABS had enough road.

I'm sure the ABS aided in avoiding a skid (I forced myself into a half-skid in the end to get off the main track of the road, and use the gravel, as I was ultimately stopping on an icy hill) but really the system should be wiser to ground speed increasing while it does its job of preventing a skid and maybe have let me brake a bit harder

MrDerp

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

We're talking about situations where the tyres have little to no grip. If there's no grip for the brakes to bite on, there's no magic extra grip for engine braking to work with.

Engine braking only works through the driven wheels, so it's worse than the brakes on any 2wd car, and doesn't benefit from ABS, so works even less well.

Fair enough, but we don't know that the OP, unused to ABS, wouldn't have had more grip 2m later.

That's the point of my story. ABS decided I was having a skid, but I believe that I got grip much sooner than the system believed I had it. The car was speeding up, I felt it slow down directly in response to my use of engine braking.

That's why I practice, and I believe we should still teach, that cars should be slowed by moving down through the gears. Clutch control, ba.

mfceiling

dgt wrote: »

I once approached a junction and when the brakes were applied, the master cylinder let go.

Now thats a proper brown trouser moment

Happened me as well one Saturday morning going into galway!! No skid marks on the road but a few in the boxer shorts!!

Zubeneschamali

MrDerp wrote: »

ABS decided I was having a skid, but I believe that I got grip much sooner than the system believed I had it. The car was speeding up, I felt it slow down directly in response to my use of engine braking.

So you are better than the ABS system at sensing wheel spin and lock-up?

You are either superhuman or your ABS is broken.

sambucus

Guys abs is no good in a situation where all 4 wheels lock up. Brake assist will but is only a feature in modern cars.
So IMO engine braking and gently tapping brakes will shorten braking distances over abs

MrDerp

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So you are better than the ABS system at sensing wheel spin and lock-up?

You are either superhuman or your ABS is broken.

No, I never said that. You're putting words in my internet mouth.

I said I believe that my ABS continued to prevent me from braking, causing the car to speed up on the hill, when the grip issue had passed. I was forced to intervene and slow the wheels myself.

I didn't sense wheel spin, I didn't sense lock-up, and I didn't sense grip. I was, however, sure as hell forced to try for grip myself, which I thankfully found under engine braking. This was brought about, not by some quick mechanical reasoning, but by my decision to come to a complete stop off the main road, rather than to attempt controlling the situation using the brakes. Plan B was a slightly blind turn up another hill into an estate (just before where I stopped) if grip continued to fail.

ABS is an excellent system, but it's still a computer governed by rules. It is not a replacement for driving skill. I'm not saying I'm a particularly skilled driver, but I had a good instructor and I maintain that my habit (note: not quick-thinking, habit) of always using the gears when I plan to come to a complete stop, stopped me from having an accident on that occasion.

CiniO

Lots of people in this thread seem to consufe situation of ABS kicking in, and situation of emergency braking where ABS is working fully.

If you are on slippery surface, and press brake pedal ABS might kick in (pedal might start to vibrate) but it doesn't mean that full braking force is applies already. It could have been only one of four wheel which skided (maybe because of oil patch or sth) and this caused ABS to work just on this one perticular wheel, but other 3 still don't use their maximum braking force. In that situation to increase braking force, you should depress brake pedal as strong as possible. This will increase braking force greatly.
I'm guessing that OP didn't do it, and therefore he didn't use all possible braking force.

CiniO

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So you are better than the ABS system at sensing wheel spin and lock-up?

You are either superhuman or your ABS is broken.

Generally on ice ABS is not that great about stopping distance. You might stop sooner with wheels locked. As in cars with ABS that's impossible, you might try to fiddle with engine braking, and cause wheels to turn slower than actually car is moving, causing it to brake.

On loose surface (like snow, sand or gravel) braking without ABS is way more efficient that with it. Unfortuantely no moders car allow to turn off ABS easily. What I used to do in Mondeo was to take ABS fuse off to make it stop working.

Viper_JB

Think these say it all really
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Triangle/TR968.htm
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Triangle/TR918.htm
If the tyres can't get traction then the ABS pretty much has it's work cut out.