First the teachers and now the doctors

New consultants will start on 30% less that the current consultant's after a new agreement.

Chuck Stone

Good.

Link? Opinion?

Cookie_Monster

Private vs New Public vs Old Public, it gonna be epic!!!

plumbball

Poor things they will only earn 200,000 a year now:(

It was one of the headline on the 6 o clock news RTE

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

It was one of the headline on the 6 o clock news RTE

As per the charter, if you're going to start a thread, at least give your own opinion on the matter.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63152622&postcount=21

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Not every news story needs a thread on After Hours. Don't just post up a link to a news article just because nobody else has. Add something to it. Your own point of view.
If you do start a thread, be prepared to contribute to it yourself, especially if you expect others to do so.

I'm not sure about the argument about the brake down of social solidarity between different generations in Irish society.. but now I am not so sure it cant be good that one section of society ( older and already employed ) keep what they have at the experience of the younger newer entrances.


On the other had I am totaly for the brake up of the closed shop the professions in Ireland are, merely becoming a consultant/ doctor/barrister/solicitor etc should not be the equivalent of having a lotto ticket.

notnumber

mariaalice wrote: »

I'm not sure about the argument about the brake down of social solidarity between different generations in Irish society.. but now I am not so sure it cant be good that one section of society ( older and already employed ) keep what they have at the experience of the younger newer entrances.


On the other had I am total for the brake up of the closed shop the professions in Ireland are, merely becoming a consultant/ doctor/barrister/solicitor etc should not be the equivalent of having a lotto ticket.

The younger generation it could be argued will be able to buy more affordable housing hence the reduction is justified.

jessiejam

New recruits starting on €116k p.a.
I'm not sure how many hours per week this is for, but according to Prof. Stephen Cusack in the CUH, they are currently paying registrars and locums €60 per hour. Over a 39 hour week that works out at €121k per annum.
He said he doesn't know how they can attract consultants to work for 116k p.a. for a sometimes 59 hour week with no day off, when a locum can earn 121k for a 39 hour week.

No link for this just heard it on the radio on the way home from work.

I think it should be either or though. You are either employed by the HSE or you work privately. I have no idea what kind of money consultants are making privately but judging by some waiting lists, there is no shortage of patients willing to pay. Its like €150 per consultation. This on top of a HSE salary is incredible.

Consultants salaries only make up 0.02% of the Health budget at present, so I'm not sure it would have a huge impact. Again this is what I heard on the radio today so its only 3rd hand information.

Boombastic

Sure they can easily make up the difference with their private work



Shame on the older generation for selling out the young 'uns.

admiralofthefleet

still paid too much, and most of them are partners in the car park companies milking people in the hospitals, imo

Please include a link to all news articles when starting threads regarding same.

From RTE website:

It follows the conclusion of talks involving the Irish Hospital Consultants Association, the Irish Medical Organisation and the HSE at the Labour Relations Commission.

HSE National Director of Human Resources Barry O'Brien said the new salary rate for consultants would be between €116,000 and €121,000.

Mr O'Brien said consultants did not agree with the new rate but they were aware of the HSE's decision to proceed with it and implement it.

Full story here

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0917/consultant-hse-talks.html

gara

I'm sick of the younger generation getting crapped on. We're the future of this country -if there's a cut to be made, let the mess-makers take it!!

rugbyman

Maria Alice,
nice piece of negotiating by both sides. clearly the way to go. winners on each side,Govt. saves money, efficiency improves,and the overpaid consultants still keep their existing salaries(I think), which they and the population at large know are too high.
I believe that few of the overpaid in this country are that comfortable about it. they still mingle in their neighbourhood and in their (golf) clubs with people who are not on the gravy train. the rift between those who are paid by the State and the Rest of us is quite deep and growing.

having consultants earning less than those who are on the old scale,alongside those who are on the new(lesser) scale will cause a wee bit if resentment,to the discomfort of the higher paid i expect/hope

Regards Rugbyman

i assume/hope that other deals are in the pipeline at different levels

moons

On the other had I am total for the brake up of the closed shop the professions in Ireland are, merely becoming a consultant/ doctor/barrister/solicitor etc should not be the equivalent of having a lotto ticket.


MERELY BECOMING?:
I'll just put it out there, to merely become a consultant in Ireland, one has to 1. compete to get an internship (yes having made it through medical school)
2. work in varied locations throughout the country as an sho, not getting paid overtime; everybody loves spending a bank holiday working for free, while paying 2k a year to the training body, plus med council fee plus insurance
3. get on an SPR scheme- no mean feat fyi
4. spend about 5-6 years being told where to work and who for
5. complete research, unpaid- about another 2 years
6. fellowship abroad, about another 2 years
7. await a consultancy here, depending on the specialty, could be 20 others+ going for the same job
all the while trying to raise a family etc
No wonder most Irish graduates are choosing to emigrate and stay abroad.

recyclebin

Apparently consultants pay only make up 0.02% of the total health bill so 30% of 0.02% is a very small saving in the scheme of things

WumBuster

Typical the young people coming in get cut whilst the old guard get to keep their salaries. Wheres the fairness in that?

Wanderer2010

James O Reilly, on the RTE news tonight, couldnt really answer the question put to him that "How can they hire new consultants on a lesser wage when they couldnt even fill the same positions last year, and thats with higher wages?", he flustered about and said that the new rostering system would eliminate overtime and pay premiums...dodging the original question. He makes a very bad impression on me, seems a wooly brained man who doesnt even know whats going on, awful eejit.

I know it a long and difficult journey to become a consultant that was not my point, most professions in Ireland have very restricted entry requirements and were often a closed shop thus making them very well paid I don't agree with that a profession should not make you rich just because its a profession!

ilovesleep

notnumber wrote: »

The younger generation it could be argued will be able to buy more affordable housing hence the reduction is justified.

More affordable housing compared to say an older doctor, maybe. Take an older doctor who is near retirement, perhaps in his 60s. If he has a home, he would have taken a mortgage maybe 20, 25 or 30 years ago. His house back then would have been much cheaper, and his salary would have climbed throughout the boom. His house would be paid off by now, no doubt. If he's in debt, with loans it's probably due to gambling on property.
I know someone who knows loads of doctors, and in a practice, about two years ago, to stay afloat and for survival of the practice, all doctors working there needed to take a pay cut. A meeting was called and all doctors bar one were in agreement. The one who wasn't, a near retirement doctor, up to his eyeballs on debt due to property gambling.

I'd say that there are many, near retirement people, up and down the country, instead of looking forward to their retirement, they are up to their eyeballs in debt. Perhaps a second mortgage for a holiday home. You see any body nearing retirement would have bought perhaps in the 70s or 80s. With the property bubble and over inflation of wages their house would have been paid. And they were led with a false sense of security, everything built on quicksand.

And we have nama - keeping property prices artificial for the younger generation.

seanie_m

There seems to be this mass opinion out there that the current consultants agreed to this, and are screwing over their future co-consultants. I don't know where or how that started, but its not the case - the government & HSE have decided to implement this and its not up for discussion, never was. The consultants said they did not agree to it, but are aware that the HSE don't give a fiddlers and are going to ploguh ahead anyway.
Poor reporting in about 80% of the news articles I've read on the matter so far. But then again, why let the facts get in the way when we can have a right go at somebody.

woodoo

notnumber wrote: »

The younger generation it could be argued will be able to buy more affordable housing hence the reduction is justified.

That is exactly it. They will be entering at a time when everything has changed. I don't get the concern of people who normally are calling for PS paycuts. They are getting cheaper services into the future. The new staff will have the option to take the job or not that will be their choice. They will base their mortgage and other costs around this. Just as the present PS staff did in their time. It is further proof that most of the attacks on the current PS workers is pure spite and begrudgery.

ResearchWill

mariaalice wrote: »

I'm not sure about the argument about the brake down of social solidarity between different generations in Irish society.. but now I am not so sure it cant be good that one section of society ( older and already employed ) keep what they have at the experience of the younger newer entrances.


On the other had I am totaly for the brake up of the closed shop the professions in Ireland are, merely becoming a consultant/ doctor/barrister/solicitor etc should not be the equivalent of having a lotto ticket.

I have to laugh out loud, I personally know barristers after college, the kings inns and a number of years in practice who earn less than minimum wage. Unemployment among solicitors is high, in some areas of the country there are no solicitors under the age of 30 (many have qualified just no jobs) While many earn a fortune like in many areas lots don't.

Things are changing which is good but there was/is a lot of kicking and giving out by some of the professions anyone remember how the pharmacy profession in Ireland use be.

The profession should provide you with a modest middle class income entrepreneurs and risk takers should be the ones making money in Ireland it would be good for society and the education system.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

risk takers should be the ones making money in Ireland

Like property developers and speculators?

If any one should be paid well it's the people saving lives, not the people gambling with large sums of borrowed money.

I said risk takes ( and that means the risk of loosing your money )...There is nothing wrong in being a property developer as long as you are prepared to take you losses with you gains.

ejmaztec

mariaalice wrote: »

I said risk takes ( and that means the risk of loosing your money )...There is nothing wrong in being a property developer as long as you are prepared to take you losses with you gains.

Unfortunately, they take the gains, and the tax-payer takes the losses.

Janedoe10

As some one posted earlier our minister could not answer the question ( we cannot fill consultant posts at current salaries)
Yet minister says new posts will be at lower salaries.
Who suffers ? US the people going into hosp or waiting to seek some consultant.
No doubt we will train up docs to be exported out if this country and other countries benefit .
This is another brain drain .
Each group in that meeting had their own agenda .

Nonoperational

I love the "good" etc comments. I'd love for some people to go and watch what a consultant does in an average day in a public hospital. Not to mention the horrendous **** a NCHD has to put up with for many many years before that.

Anyway, at least people that have no clue about the job are happy. I'd seriously have to think about working as a consultant on a public only contract in Ireland now.

I have the highest respect for anyone who becomes a consultant because of the hard work involved right from your early teens you would have been working very had to get where you are. That dose not take from my argument that the profession should not be perceived as a ticket to a lucrative way of making money.

ResearchWill

mariaalice wrote: »

Things are changing which is good but there was/is a lot of kicking and giving out by some of the professions anyone remember how the pharmacy profession in Ireland use be.

The profession should provide you with a modest middle class income entrepreneurs and risk takers should be the ones making money in Ireland it would be good for society and the education system.

So a self employed pharmacist who buys or rents a building takes out a loan to set up their business, who employes a number of other people is not an entrepreneur. A solicitor who borrows money to fund the setting up of a practice and provide a service to local business and people is not an entrepreneur. Why should a profession provide you with a modest middle class income (for employed professionals it provides less than that) when a builder who takes a risk with his own or OPM is allowed to earn millions.

kincsem

gara wrote: »

I'm sick of the younger generation getting crapped on. We're the future of this country -if there's a cut to be made, let the mess-makers take it!!

Everyone agrees other people should suffer cuts.

road_hog

Boombastic wrote: »

Sure they can easily make up the difference with their private work



Shame on the older generation for selling out the young 'uns.

every other sector does it ( old throwing the young under the bus ) so why not the consultants , this has been no country for young people for quite some time

Boombastic

road_hog wrote: »

every other sector does it ( old throwing the young under the bus ) so why not the consultants , this has been no country for young people for quite some time

It's a shame really, the cuts should all be more evenly divided across the board.

Eoin

recyclebin wrote: »

Apparently consultants pay only make up 0.02% of the total health bill so 30% of 0.02% is a very small saving in the scheme of things

Not to mention that it only affects new contracts, so it's an even teenier percentage. But it sounds good when it's announced.

I reckon the big cost is in middle management, but they can't tackle that problem.

ResearchWill

recyclebin wrote: »

Apparently consultants pay only make up 0.02% of the total health bill so 30% of 0.02% is a very small saving in the scheme of things

Consultant wages last year €475 million which would mean at .02% of total health bill then health bill last year was €237.5 billion. Don't think that adds up.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/consultants-told-to-get-patients-home-by-11am-3217960.html

I think consultants salary would be closer to 2% of health expenditure.

I believe that total non capital public spending on health also in 2011 was 13,700,000,000, meaning consultants last year amounted to 3.46% of total non capital funding of heath service.

Page 52

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/pdf/key_trends_2011.pdf?direct=1

2Scoops

Won't make a dent in the salary and pension costs without tackling HSE admin and Ireland's saintly nurses. Unfortunately, not such populist targets.

crackcrack30

Did the government need the permission of current consultants to cut new entrants???? i dont think so ......they didnt for all other grades and professions.... more smoke and mirrors IMO... gov hoodwinked again by the richest.

crackcrack30

2Scoops wrote: »

Won't make a dent in the salary and pension costs without tackling HSE admin and Ireland's saintly nurses. Unfortunately, not such populist targets.

Should the average health care public servent be asked to pay for your health care system by means of a pay cut? .... the gov would like you to think so... the reality is that we all collectivly need to pay more be it by levies or taxes for a first world system that serves us all.....

Boombastic

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Should the average health care public servent be asked to pay for your health care system by means of a pay cut? .... the gov would like you to think so... the reality is that we all collectivly need to pay more be it by levies or taxes for a first world system that serves us all.....

What country is this you refer to that has a first world system, it's certainly not Ireland?

ResearchWill

Boombastic wrote: »

What country is this you refer to that has a first world system, it's certainly not Ireland?

While Ireland's health service is not by any measure the best in the world, by all measures it is first world. If you want to see real third world health care visit any number of countries where the most basic of health is not available to huge parts of the population.

In fact according to the WHO that the World Health Orgainsation we rank number 19, now that's not in the EU that in the World. US is number 37. That list was in 2000, our Heath service has come on in leaps and bounds since then. According to EU reports Ireland had been at 28 out of 29 in 2006 but moved up to 13th out of 33 by 2009.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0928/health.html

partyatmygaff

Boombastic wrote: »

What country is this you refer to that has a first world system, it's certainly not Ireland?

It certainly is.

We don't have the world's best health care system. Everyone knows that. What we do have however is a system that bests what is available to the vast majority of world's population. It's not as if we're living in Somalia ffs.

corkscrew12

Doctors in Ireland have far greater salaries than other countries. Even GPs in this country are paid as much as surgeons in other countries which blows my mind....the quality of healthcare and education in Ireland isn't top notch either so ....

Nephinbeg

Great article about the hypocrisy of cutting new entrants wages to maintain permanent staff numbers and wages. Aaron can sometimes be a bit daft in his articles but he's spot-on here.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/nurses-pay-aaron-mckenna-715957-Dec2012/