What does my job have to do with this?

axel rose

So I enrol my son to his new primary school. The entry form was very straightforward....Sons name, dob, pps ,my/Husbands name, address, phone number, .....AND OCCUPATION .

I asked why and was given some bvllsh1t about knowing if mammy is at home during the day and it's fine as the information never leaves the school (Brilliant! :rolleyes:).

So apart from separating the riff from the obvious raff- what possible reason would a primary school need my and my husbands occupation? How many parents have had to answer this question?

Irish_Elect_Eng

Simple Answer:

Could be a cut-n-paste form and they do nothing with the data.

Paranoid Answer:

Could it be a way of determining the educational background of the family?

Cedrus

Could be the start of the fundraising for the extension/sports hall/all weather pitch.

echo beach

Can also be used if the school is trying to get funded on the basis of 'disadvantage'. They need to know how many parents are unemployed and in the different social classes, which are determined by your employment.

KKkitty

Maybe in case of an emergency they need to know the approximate distance between you and your son's school. If your child becomes unwell or hurts himself they will need to know would it take you or your OH long to get from A to B.

axel rose

KKitty, et al It was not a question of where do I work, nor how easy it is for me to get from work just a big blank

MOTHERS OCCUPATION____________________

FATHERS OCCUPATION_____________________

There was no explanation in relation to grants, the area is rural and doesn't strike me as disadvantaged. I'm more p1ssed off that that the principle brushed off my question completely. She lied to me when she said it was about knowing who was at home.....occupation has no relevance to it at all....

pwurple

That would annoy me as well. If they want to know if mammy is at home during the day, then ask that question.

It is pure laziness/nosiness. I see that question everywhere, on bank and credit union forms, gym forms, even tesco and dunnes probably ask it on their clubcard forms.

Make something up. Preferably something that has the same initials as None Of Your Business.

kippy

Why would you not want to put down on the form what your occupation is?

Schools can use this information for any number of reasons, all entirely legitimate.

January

Moved from Parenting, you should get a better answer here.

Trotter

If a child is sick during the day it helps to check which parent could be called? As in if Mammy's a regional sales rep and Daddy works locally..

Not all schools are places of evil looking to create social mischief. Although listening to the media these days you'd think they were set up to annoy and frustrate parents. Some people go to work in schools to strive to care for your children as you would you know...

Is there destined to be a happy relationship between you and the school if you're on the attack while filling out the form?

MummyDearest

The question is usually ... if the parent/guardian can not be contacted in-case of an emergency who should be contacted ( grandparent, minder ) both of my children are in primary schools and that question was not on their forms ... don't think the school needs to know your job description I would certainly want a straight answer as to why they need to

Tasden

Tbh op ive found most forms nowadays ask for this info regardless of its relevance. There could be a number of reasons why they want to know, for statistical purposes etc. Not anything malicious i would think.

muckisluck

Particularly when a child is young it makes it easier for teachers when engaging in discussion with children about their lives. It also helps the teacher in diverting discussions that could cause upset for children perhaps when one child may say something that could be interpreted as hurtful by another because of parents occupation. It also can be used by teachers when planning lessons on for example people who help us. If someone has a father a Nurse or Guard etc. that is obviously a good source that can be utilised. I remember one of my children causing great consternation with speech therapists who spent ages in a therapy session trying to convince him that children go to school but mammies and daddies go to work. It was only when I was called in to the session to give me the homework for the week that all became clear. She asked me to spend time with him trying to explain the difference in work and school. I was able to point out that as both my wife and I go to work as teachers my son was actually not wrong at all- mystery quickly solved. As someone else has said not all questions are to catch people out and cause trouble.

aisher

I was asked the same when I completed forms for my kids. Later on when the school were deciding who would have access to the free after school homework club only a select few kids were given the forms to take home to enrol them in the club - I thought the club sounded great and wanted to enrol my own kids but was told I didn't qualify - the school wouldnt actually say how you did qualify! These questions dont seem important at the time but clearly the schools do use them to determine who gets what when it come to resources.

Trotter

aisher wrote: »

I was asked the same when I completed forms for my kids. Later on when the school were deciding who would have access to the free after school homework club only a select few kids were given the forms to take home to enrol them in the club - I thought the club sounded great and wanted to enrol my own kids but was told I didn't qualify - the school wouldnt actually say how you did qualify! These questions dont seem important at the time but clearly the schools do use them to determine who gets what when it come to resources.

No the schools don't. One school you have experience of does. All of the schools don't.

Not that this comment fits the common 'all schools are out there to provide teachers with a way of causing the destruction of mankind' theme.

pwurple

Trotter wrote: »

If a child is sick during the day it helps to check which parent could be called? As in if Mammy's a regional sales rep and Daddy works locally..

This would make sense if the form asked that question. However the form didn't ask for locality, or who would be better placed to take calls. It asked for occupation.

Mother's occupation _______ Sales____
Father's occupation _____Mechanic____

or
Mother's occupation _______ Plebotomist____
Father's occupation _____IT manager____

Those are not much use for the purpose you have stated.

Why would you not want to put down on the form what your occupation is?

This is often the reason bandied about for all sorts of things. Data protection is important, for reasons of identity theft, fraud and privacy. I don't hand over my phone number or email address on every form that asks for it either. It is not a question of having something to hide, I just don't want this information floating about where I don't control it.

kippy

pwurple wrote: »

This would make sense if the form asked that question. However the form didn't ask for locality, or who would be better placed to take calls. It asked for occupation.

Mother's occupation _______ Sales____
Father's occupation _____Mechanic____

or
Mother's occupation _______ Plebotomist____
Father's occupation _____IT manager____

Those are not much use for the purpose you have stated.


This is often the reason bandied about for all sorts of things. Data protection is important, for reasons of identity theft, fraud and privacy. I don't hand over my phone number or email address on every form that asks for it either. It is not a question of having something to hide, I just don't want this information floating about where I don't control it.

There are many valid reasons why it would be useful for the school to know of your occupation expecially in this day and age.

Why don't you want your occupation "floating about"?

thesimpsons

kippy wrote: »

There are many valid reasons why it would be useful for the school to know of your occupation expecially in this day and age.

Why don't you want your occupation "floating about"?

I wouldn't want my occupation known because it is my information to give out as I deem appropriate. I don't see any valid reasons for a school to know what I do. What difference does it make to a school if I am a secret millionaire who doesn't work, if I am a painter, a gardener, banker, teacher, production manager or whatever. What would you see as a valid reason school should need to know what I do? I would object to having to fill this info out on a school application tbh. I'd also be majorily pissed off if I was targetted for extra fundraising or assistance just because my occupation suited the school's purpose.

pwurple

kippy wrote: »

There are many valid reasons why it would be useful for the school to know of your occupation expecially in this day and age.

Examples of the many valid reasons would be good here kippy.

I haven't seen a single one in this thread yet.

killbillvol2

The actiual reason is quite simple.

Every primary school has a school register (Clárleabhar) in which information on each child enrolled must be entered.

The columns in the register are:

Date of enrolment, Cláruimhir, Name, DOB, Religion, Parents' names and address, Occupation, School from which the child transferred, County in which that school is and the last class completed by the child.

As another poster said, if you're unwilling to provide such basic information to the school it doesn't augur well for the future.

Son of Jack

The questions about occupation provides 'statistics' for the Department of Education. The school isn't asking for them. The Department is.
In theory it tell them more about the schools catchment area and provides a fuller picture of the school in its 'context'.
For example it may be part of that which is taken into account when a school was given disadvantaged status.
It may give an indication of some very good teaching and committed parents i.e. if a school in an area of low socio economic status is excelling in Maths and Literacy.
The really old registers make for fascinating reading showing occupations that are now gone or vanishing e.g. barrel makers, chimney sweeps etc.
The rise of women working outside the home, would also be documented in the registers. They are a legal document and a recognised historical source.

pwurple

killbillvol2 wrote: »

The actiual reason is quite simple.

Every primary school has a school register (Clárleabhar) in which information on each child enrolled must be entered.

That is not a reason though. That is a standard procedure. Why is it in the Clarleabhar in the first place? please don't say "It just is".

Not really sure why the character of the OP is being called into question because he has some small semblance of data protection awareness.

Tihis is something a lot of schools could do with by the way. I foolishly gave my email address to a school my daughter is enrolled in. They CC the entire parent list on email, sharing all our contact details with everyone else on the list. This is how spam and viruses are propogated. Someone is careless with data and everyone on the list suffer a virus attack. Same thing I have heard happen with mobile numbers, the list gets into someone's hands and everyone is subscribed to nuisance texts.

If I was asked on enrollment forms, where things like the age, religion and past pupil relationships are asked (which are used to place children on lists in oversubscribed schools)... Then it would make you wonder if your occupation is also going to affect that weighting system.

It is just sloppy data management in my opinion to ask for information you don't need. Especially as it is likely to be out of date in six months time when some parent loses their job, or changes job.

pwurple

Son of Jack wrote: »

The questions about occupation provides 'statistics' for the Department of Education. The school isn't asking for them. The Department is.

The really old registers make for fascinating reading showing occupations that are now gone or vanishing e.g. barrel makers, chimney sweeps etc.
The rise of women working outside the home, would also be documented in the registers. They are a legal document and a recognised historical source.

This is an actual reason.
Thanks.

Seasoft

Killbillvol2 has given the reason why the questions on occupation are on forms. However, in my experience, if left blank no self-respecting principal/manager would persue the matter, especially if there was a possibility of sensitivities around the matter.

byhookorbycrook

Seasoft wrote: »

Killbillvol2 has given the reason why the questions on occupation are on forms. However, in my experience, if left blank no self-respecting principal/manager would persue the matter, especially if there was a possibility of sensitivities around the matter.

But it's not down to the principal or manager. It is a DES requirement.

kippy

If people don't want to put down the profession - don't or put down Astronaut.
There are obviously reasons why it is asked, including the potential for schools to utilise the skills of parents if they so need to in future.

I am surprised that people are concerned about getting mass communications via email list as well to be honest - if you're worried about SPAM use a decent spam filter. You dont really get a "virus attack" via email if you are careful yourself to be honest.

Again, if you dont want to give that information I don't believe you have to.

Cedrus

pwurple wrote: »

................... I foolishly gave my email address to a school my daughter is enrolled in. They CC the entire parent list on email, sharing all our contact details with everyone else on the list. ........... Someone is careless with data and everyone on the list suffer a virus attack. Same thing I have heard happen with mobile numbers, the list gets into someone's hands and everyone is subscribed to nuisance texts.
.................................

This is an important issue, I'm not sure exactly what the data protection act says, but anyone collecting personal information has a responsibility to guard that information and only use it for the reasons it was intended.

I am involved in a couple ofvoluntary groups where we have good reason to collect email addresses, I only ever send out infomation emails by BCC so that nobody has to share their contact information, but one time, (and one time only) a colleague didn't use the BCC option and we are now plagued by a commercial entity spamming us all looking for work.
Another group where I am not involved in the circulation list, the people who are, don't see any onus on themselves to protect the data, I just get laughed at when I suggest that they should be more careful with peoples trust.

If anyone knows how to set BCC as a default in GMail I would be delighted to know.

pwurple

kippy wrote: »

including the potential for schools to utilise the skills of parents.

So, if the school wants to guilt me into giving my services for free, they will be asking for it if I put down my occupation. Good to know.

I am surprised that people are concerned about getting mass communications via email list as well to be honest - if you're worried about SPAM use a decent spam filter. You dont really get a "virus attack" via email if you are careful yourself to be honest.

Do you think those emails arrive at your spam filter with no additional power expended anywhere on the planet? This kind of junk adds to the load of servers, forcing bigger data storage and more power consumption.
What I am talking about is being careful.

Prevention is better than cure for IT systems the same way it is for health. Data hygiene reduces IT overheads (the processing power for massive antivirus and spam), is more environmentally friendly (less paper and electronic copies of data you don't need or use), and protects privacy.

A good anti-virus is still only about 80% effective. I guess not everyone remembers the days of Melissa.

kippy

pwurple wrote: »

So, if the school wants to guilt me into giving my services for free, they will be asking for it if I put down my occupation. Good to know.


Do you think those emails arrive at your spam filter with no additional power expended anywhere on the planet? This kind of junk adds to the load of servers, forcing bigger data storage and more power consumption.
What I am talking about is being careful.

Prevention is better than cure for IT systems the same way it is for health. Data hygiene reduces IT overheads (the processing power for massive antivirus and spam), is more environmentally friendly (less paper and electronic copies of data you don't need or use), and protects privacy.

A good anti-virus is still only about 80% effective. I guess not everyone remembers the days of Melissa.

It's not really a guilt thing. Just a means of attempting to save the school money and perhaps us your skills in a "show and tell" type environment.
You're under no obligation to help anyone to be honest.


Would ya stop with your IT Systems prevention/server loads etc........

While it might be useful for some of these people to be more aware of data protection laws (using BCC instead of TO for example would sort that issue out) I personally am happy to get communications via email as it saves people time and money in relation to other media.

It's hard to please all parents, it really is.

axel rose

It's hard to please all parents, it really is.

With the greatest respect kippy when I ask a fairly reasonable question to the principle of a school I expect to be given an honest answer. The principles answer to me ranged from the fact that the information was not leaving the school to not knowing why, and then settled onto knowing who would be available during the day.

None of these answers explain the relevance of my occupation. In my experience when more than one reason is given to a simple question-the truth is not being told.

I don't think expecting to be told the truth is being particularly difficult.

kippy

axel rose wrote: »

With the greatest respect kippy when I ask a fairly reasonable question to the principle of a school I expect to be given an honest answer. The principles answer to me ranged from the fact that the information was not leaving the school to not knowing why, and then settled onto knowing who would be available during the day.

None of these answers explain the relevance of my occupation. In my experience when more than one reason is given to a simple question-the truth is not being told.

I don't think expecting to be told the truth is being particularly difficult.

The principal could have dealt with it better, I'd give you that.

Why do you think they are asking for this information, seeing as you believe there is some malice in it (the truth not being told etc)
And in fairness, there have been multiple reasons given here why a school would find it beneficial to have this on file - whether or not the principal was aware of them or not.

The hard to please parents comment was probably more in relation to the emails mentioned above.

axel rose

In all honesty Kippy I didn't know- it may seem a bit smartarse but that's why I asked why. It was her reaction that got me thinking. I didn't go all Inspector Clouseau on the woman.

There have been some good and logical explanations as to why the question was there-I do think that the principal should be aware of them though! Particularly if killbillvol2 is right. I suspect s/he is on the ball.



I went to a secondary school where 'who' you were (and donated the voluntary fee) had a direct effect on the honours classes you were allowed in. I can't be blamed for coming to my own conclusions.

kippy

axel rose wrote: »

In all honesty Kippy I didn't know- it may seem a bit smartarse but that's why I asked why. It was her reaction that got me thinking. I didn't go all Inspector Clouseau on the woman.

There have been some good and logical explanations as to why the question was there-I do think that the principal should be aware of them though! Particularly if killbillvol2 is right. I suspect s/he is on the ball.



I went to a secondary school where 'who' you were (and donated the voluntary fee) had a direct effect on the honours classes you were allowed in. I can't be blamed for coming to my own conclusions.

I think it's a bit tinfoil hat-ish being honest. But the principal should have been able to give you a valid reason, particularly if it is for the role book.

I am not sure how that has any link to your secondary school experience either to be honest but I am sorry to hear of that situation.