Coded in Ireland - a movement to encourage local outsourcing of IT

maxmarmalade

Hi
Myself and a friend started a web design business in january. We're doing ok but have been surprised at the willingness of businesses to outsource their web design/mobile apps overseas. Its a strange phenomenon since we're always encouraged to support the local economy. We buy local, a lot of industries outsourse local, so why shouldn't IT support the local economy? We've started a linked in group called "Coded in Ireland". Please join and add to the discussion. Any web design or dev companies who would be interested in displaying the "Coded in Ireland" graphic on their site, please contact us and we can send you it for free. We will be starting a site displaying all irish companies signe up to the "Coded in Ireland" ethos. Here's the group: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Coded-in-Ireland-4623160?trk=myg_ugrp_ovr

Cheers
Mark

GetWithIt

You're on a rocky road. Do you utilize any extensions, 3rd party components, common api's? How about open source software?

tatrman

GetWithIt wrote: »

You're on a rocky road. Do you utilize any extensions, 3rd party components, common api's? How about open source software?

Hi, It is more contracting and subcontracting what we are targeting. IMHO it is not only IT industry having this problem for example look at the recently announced Nokia factories shut down in Finland. IT is the field where we are so we feel it is worth the discussion.

The Corinthian

Nice idea.

However, I think you need to have a certain critical mass of membership and rules too - many Irish dev companies outsource abroad too, for example, so you hardly want them to put your badge on their outsourced works, do you?

I'd also look into more professional branding; 'coded' is a term that is not that well understood outside of IT. A taxi driver or shop assistant wouldn't have a clue what you're taking about.

Also, you'll want to tie in with other organizations such as the various Chambers of commerce, IIA and so on.

And last but most importantly, you need to raise awareness for the brand, otherwise it's pretty worthless - little more than another scout badge to stick on a site that no one has ever heard of. See if you can't recruit some branding expert to get involved pro bono.

maxmarmalade

Thanks for reply, some great ideas here. Yes, we'll have a think about replacing "coded" with a term more widely understood.

Trojan

"Designed by Apple in California"

I've always thought that was both incredibly cheeky and genius.

Jim2007

maxmarmalade wrote: »

Please join and add to the discussion. Any web design or dev companies who would be interested in displaying the "Coded in Ireland" graphic on their site, please contact us and we can send you it for free. We will be starting a site displaying all irish companies signe up to the "Coded in Ireland" ethos.

There is a reason why there are not more of these kind of campaigns - it's against EU law!!! I'd suggest you seek legal advise before you put too much effort into it, or change it to "Coded in the EU"!

maxmarmalade

Jim2007 wrote: »

There is a reason why there are not more of these kind of campaigns - it's against EU law!!! I'd suggest you seek legal advise before you put too much effort into it, or change it to "Coded in the EU"!

I doubt this. Which law do you refer to?

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maxmarmalade wrote: »

Jim2007 wrote: »

There is a reason why there are not more of these kind of campaigns - it's against EU law!!! I'd suggest you seek legal advise before you put too much effort into it, or change it to "Coded in the EU"!

I doubt this. Which law do you refer to?

what happened to guaranteed Irish and lot of other advertising for Irish products its not illegal

maxmarmalade

Grady Embarrassed Skinhead wrote: »

what happened to guaranteed Irish and lot of other advertising for Irish products its not illegal

Yes thats what I was thinking too

Feathers

The Corinthian wrote: »

And last but most importantly, you need to raise awareness for the brand, otherwise it's pretty worthless - little more than another scout badge to stick on a site that no one has ever heard of. See if you can't recruit some branding expert to get involved pro bono.

With the right branding behind it, I could see it as the type of thing the radio stations/papers might pick up to fill some space if done right.

The 3rd party/OSS thing might be tricky alright, if someone wanted to throw a spanner in the works.

p

We're supposed to live in a multi-cultural world. I hate all this stupid economic snobbery. While the intention is honest, the result is misguided, and proven to be false.

Ireland as a country could become completely self-sustainable and not import or export anything from the rest of the world. If we wanted to truly 'buy local' - then that's the natural conclusion. The problem is that we'd be poorer if we did that, and have a much narrower range of options in what we could purchase. Everyone loses with the 'buying local' concept. Irish companies, probably some of your clients, do business around the world. If they all decided to 'buy local' then your clients would lose business, and maybe not be able to hire you.

Now, you may say "Oh, but i'm only talking small scale..." well the truth is that it doesn't matter. The principle is the same. More trading between countries = more economic activity and wealth, so let's not actually discourage that, by promoting ideas that have been tested and proven false.

Feathers

p wrote: »

We're supposed to live in a multi-cultural world. I hate all this stupid economic snobbery. While the intention is honest, the result is misguided, and proven to be false.

Ireland as a country could become completely self-sustainable and not import or export anything from the rest of the world. If we wanted to truly 'buy local' - then that's the natural conclusion. The problem is that we'd be poorer if we did that, and have a much narrower range of options in what we could purchase. Everyone loses with the 'buying local' concept. Irish companies, probably some of your clients, do business around the world. If they all decided to 'buy local' then your clients would lose business, and maybe not be able to hire you.

Now, you may say "Oh, but i'm only talking small scale..." well the truth is that it doesn't matter. The principle is the same. More trading between countries = more economic activity and wealth, so let's not actually discourage that, by promoting ideas that have been tested and proven false.

I don't know if it's about snobbery, I'd say it's about quality. No-one wants wine or bananas from Ireland, but they do want beef, cheese or wool because they know (or think they know) that Ireland is good at providing these. Local produce is also likely to be fresher when bought in season, as it has less time from farm to your home.

I could see design being similarly attractive in terms of quality for different reasons — design isn't done in isolation, it's selling a product or service to a target market. To do that well, you need to have an understanding of their aesthetics and psyche — an Irish based company is more likely to get that right for an Irish market than an overseas one.

Qualitymark

It seems to depend what country you're in how seriously you take EU rules. In France, basically all government contracts go to French companies, no one from outside the country even bothers to tender for them, for instance.

Coded in Ireland sounds like a great idea.

The Corinthian

p wrote: »

Now, you may say "Oh, but i'm only talking small scale..." well the truth is that it doesn't matter. The principle is the same. More trading between countries = more economic activity and wealth, so let's not actually discourage that, by promoting ideas that have been tested and proven false.

Actually that's not necessarily true. Trade benefits both parties in the long term only if they are economically comparable. If one has an economic advantage, such as significantly lower labour costs, then the trade will end up going one way - in the short term the wealthier country will enjoy the goods and services they get for less, but in the long term they'll lose out as wealth ultimately is flowing out.

In context, if the Irish Web and international outsourcing markets were perfectly efficient, then in the short term Web sites would end up being produced at a fraction of the cost, benefiting clients. However, demand for developers would collapse and eventually Ireland would become home to IT firms that simply specialize in outsourced project management. Rates would also be pushed down over time and developers would either emigrate or retrain.

However, only a fraction the wealth produced by such IT firms would remain in Ireland. Previously they would have been paying local salaries and now they would be paying only a few project management salaries, with the bulk going to developers in a developing nation. This would in turn affect local consumption and thus businesses that would have previously benefited from more salaried workers around to spend their money.

End of the day, the OP only pretends to represent Irish Web developers, and in that context protectionism is a no-brainer - international outsourcing works against local Web developers - simple as that. But even in the bigger picture, we (as the 'disadvantaged' market) will lose out in the long term.

The Corinthian

Feathers wrote: »

I don't know if it's about snobbery, I'd say it's about quality. No-one wants wine or bananas from Ireland, but they do want beef, cheese or wool because they know (or think they know) that Ireland is good at providing these. Local produce is also likely to be fresher when bought in season, as it has less time from farm to your home.

From an IT perspective, quality of work in the developing World can be just as good as in Ireland. You do have to shop around, but then again you have to do that in Ireland too.

So let's not pretend that it's better quality or even snobbery. It's just good old fashioned protectionism - protecting the job that puts bread on the table.

Qualitymark

Surely the OP isn't talking about protectionism, but about a union of local workers saying "Hey, we're local; if that means something to you, choose us if it's a fair choice". Different thing.

The Corinthian

Qualitymark wrote: »

Surely the OP isn't talking about protectionism, but about a union of local workers saying "Hey, we're local; if that means something to you, choose us if it's a fair choice". Different thing.

What do you think economic protectionism is?

Qualitymark

The Corinthian wrote: »

What do you think economic protectionism is?

Keeping the competition out.

(Offering localism as a factor in the buying decision isn't protectionism.)

Feathers

The Corinthian wrote: »

From an IT perspective, quality of work in the developing World can be just as good as in Ireland. You do have to shop around, but then again you have to do that in Ireland too.

So let's not pretend that it's better quality or even snobbery. It's just good old fashioned protectionism - protecting the job that puts bread on the table.

Agreed if we're just talking about straight coding, but the OP mentioned that he was doing web design, which I'd take to be the umbrella of design, UX and copy as well as coding.

The Corinthian wrote: »

What do you think economic protectionism is?

I'd see a difference though between protectionism in terms of government restrictions against imports, or subsibies/tax reduction for using local vs. a company saying they were local to attract business — the first is imposed wheras the second is self-promotion.

Freddio

The Corinthian wrote: »

From an IT perspective, quality of work in the developing World can be just as good as in Ireland. You do have to shop around, but then again you have to do that in Ireland too.

I have yet to see an outsourced web project from India that was of a professional standard and I've seen many of them.

maxmarmalade

Looks like this thread's taking off. Thanks for all the contributions.

Feathers wrote: »

I don't know if it's about snobbery, I'd say it's about quality. No-one wants wine or bananas from Ireland, but they do want beef, cheese or wool because they know (or think they know) that Ireland is good at providing these. Local produce is also likely to be fresher when bought in season, as it has less time from farm to your home.

I could see design being similarly attractive in terms of quality for different reasons — design isn't done in isolation, it's selling a product or service to a target market. To do that well, you need to have an understanding of their aesthetics and psyche — an Irish based company is more likely to get that right for an Irish market than an overseas one.

Yes, Irish design & dev will, generally be better because of their understanding of the target market and the closer relationship between client and designer.

With local produce, the promotion of local food is not only about quality, it's also about helping the local economy. Chambers Ireland, for example, highlight how spending an extra €100 spent in a locally owned shop results in an injection of €250 into the local economy.

I hope Coded in Ireland can bring some of that philosophy to IT. If anyone is interested or has ideas about promoting the idea, feel free to contact me.

Feathers

maxmarmalade wrote: »

With local produce, the promotion of local food is not only about quality, it's also about helping the local economy. Chambers Ireland, for example, highlight how spending an extra €100 spent in a locally owned shop results in an injection of €250 into the local economy.

I hope Coded in Ireland can bring some of that philosophy to IT. If anyone is interested or has ideas about promoting the idea, feel free to contact me.

You'll get some buy-in with that I guess, but not as much as if you were selling a product to the end user. The difference between me buying potatoes from a grocerer & from Tescos might be a 50% increase. I've a feeling that the difference in a quote I'll get from you for a website & what I'll get online abroad would be nearer 1000%

I think to the majority of SMEs, they won't see the local economy argument stretching that far, because they can't afford it. Would be interesting if you treated as akin to a professional body — guaranteeing that any business using the brand would ensure they produce industry standard code, support a baseline browser set, was accessible, would guarantee it for 3 months, etc.

At least this way you could give businesses an economic reason to go with it. Work involved in ensuring output would be up to scratch though.

tatrman

p wrote: »

We're supposed to live in a multi-cultural world. I hate all this stupid economic snobbery. While the intention is honest, the result is misguided, and proven to be false.

Ireland as a country could become completely self-sustainable and not import or export anything from the rest of the world. If we wanted to truly 'buy local' - then that's the natural conclusion. The problem is that we'd be poorer if we did that, and have a much narrower range of options in what we could purchase. Everyone loses with the 'buying local' concept. Irish companies, probably some of your clients, do business around the world. If they all decided to 'buy local' then your clients would lose business, and maybe not be able to hire you.

Now, you may say "Oh, but i'm only talking small scale..." well the truth is that it doesn't matter. The principle is the same. More trading between countries = more economic activity and wealth, so let's not actually discourage that, by promoting ideas that have been tested and proven false.

Buy cheap sell with profit. It's called capitalism. Negative trading balance is not what makes any country rich. Face the truth not everyone is the winner here. Outsourcing to Asia means paying them to make it cheaper and sell with bigger profit here. Yeah it works to certain extent. It is nothing new - even the bible wine story is all about that. Countries with positive trading balance are generally in far better shape. What is wrong with protectionism? It is here there everywhere. Chinese undervalued Yuan is the way to protect their competitive advantage as well as patent system and sharp court decisions against Koreans in US. In comparison "Buy local" and likes are just poor attempt to protect small guys. I believe it is a good idea if nothing it will just improve general awareness.

Eoin

I haven't joined the group on LinkedIn so maybe this been mentioned there - but it might be idea to promote the benefits of sourcing IT services locally, other than the sort of vague "good for economy" angle. What benefits will your customers get with your local knowledge and easy access to you?

Maybe I'm not being patriotic - but I've no problems buying from eBay or Amazon etc if the savings are there. But if the better service and customer support from a local provider is worth it to pay that bit extra, then I'll go local.

Qualitymark

It's true - there are big benefits in going local. Irish web designers know the Irish market, for instance - they know the language that appeals to people and what are the hot buttons that will instantly turn people off and destroy a company's products in the Irish market.

They know what colours and symbols appeal, and which ones will absolutely ruin the appeal of a marketing drive. What was the company a few months ago that used the term "Black and Tan" in a marketing drive in Ireland?

And anyone who's had dealings with some faraway techie in America or India, then run into trouble and needed support only to discover that they're no longer to be found, knows the advantage of having someone supporting your product in your own town.

The Corinthian

Qualitymark wrote: »

Keeping the competition out.

(Offering localism as a factor in the buying decision isn't protectionism.)

It may not be an aggressive form of protectionism, but it still is protectionism in that it seeks to influence the market to favour purchase of local goods and services over foreign ones. Quotas and tariffs do the same; they are designed to drive up the price of imported goods, which in turn encourages the market to buy local goods that, relatively, become artificially cheaper.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that protectionism is bad. I've actually already voiced support for the idea here. But let's call a spade a spade amongst ourselves here and not come out with some BS that we care about the quality of service that people who choose not to shop locally will suffer.

Freddio wrote: »

I have yet to see an outsourced web project from India that was of a professional standard and I've seen many of them.

I never mentioned India. There's lots of places out there you can outsource too that are going to be much cheaper than Ireland.

Qualitymark wrote: »

It's true - there are big benefits in going local. Irish web designers know the Irish market, for instance - they know the language that appeals to people and what are the hot buttons that will instantly turn people off and destroy a company's products in the Irish market.

They know what colours and symbols appeal, and which ones will absolutely ruin the appeal of a marketing drive. What was the company a few months ago that used the term "Black and Tan" in a marketing drive in Ireland?

What you're describing there is the model of a client (typically who is either non-technical or has limited technical knowledge) going directly to the outsourced developer, and I agree; more often than not it's going to become a clusterfsck.

However, increasingly, I have seen a shift in European Webdev firms where they keep the project management and analysis local, but development is completely outsourced. In that scenario, the issues you raise are no longer a concern as the developers are simply working off detailed, professional specs that have been put together locally.

And anyone who's had dealings with some faraway techie in America or India, then run into trouble and needed support only to discover that they're no longer to be found, knows the advantage of having someone supporting your product in your own town.

I've found that locally too; the classic example is hiring a freelancer, who then gets a job or emigrates and also effectively falls off the face of the Earth. You also get this when dealing with firms - after all, what happens to support when your supplier goes bust?

I totally agree with the reality that in many outsource countries, you are taking your chances more than with a local supplier, but that's where having a back-up at the ready and keeping ownership off source code, etc is important; just as it should be if you were working with a local freelancer or firm who could dispensary tomorrow too.

Qualitymark

Just look at the effect of outsourcing sub-editing in some Irish newspapers, which now have English subs who assume that a story about some British village should be treated as a national story in an Irish paper. The effect is to alienate many readers; as they drain away, there's more obvious need for the management to outsource further, and so on.

Back to tech: the problem about hiring a freelance is the same whether the freelance is Irish, Indian or Polish.

The Corinthian

Qualitymark wrote: »

Just look at the effect of outsourcing sub-editing in some Irish newspapers, which now have English subs who assume that a story about some British village should be treated as a national story in an Irish paper.

True, but you're discussing the outsourcing of more than just development now. There are very practical reasons why roles related to localization, content or just customer facing are better off being kept local (or using native resources), however development is, strictly speaking, none of these.

Feathers

The Corinthian wrote: »

It may not be an aggressive form of protectionism, but it still is protectionism in that it seeks to influence the market to favour purchase of local goods and services over foreign ones. Quotas and tariffs do the same; they are designed to drive up the price of imported goods, which in turn encourages the market to buy local goods that, relatively, become artificially cheaper.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that protectionism is bad. I've actually already voiced support for the idea here. But let's call a spade a spade amongst ourselves here and not come out with some BS that we care about the quality of service that people who choose not to shop locally will suffer.

I'd say that it's not protectionism as the developers don't have control of the market, unlike for example, the government setting a minimum price for milk.

Regarding quality, when I mentioned it I wasn't trying to suggest that it's not about protecting the industry from a developer's point of view, just that this angle wouldn't work in selling it to clients (or it wouldn't be a big reason for clients to support the idea).

The Corinthian

Feathers wrote: »

I'd say that it's not protectionism as the developers don't have control of the market, unlike for example, the government setting a minimum price for milk.

No one really has control of the market, even the government. All anyone can do is influence it in such a way that changes market behaviour commensurate to the price elasticity of the good or service being targeted. A successful, privately funded, publicity campaign can as a result, often be as effective, if not more so, than any government tariff.

So you might say that it's not protectionism, but from an economic standpoint it falls under the broad definition of it. If you disagree, take it up with the universities that teach macroeconomics.

I wasn't trying to suggest that it's not about protecting the industry from a developer's point of view

It's not protectionism, but it's about protecting the industry?

Look, I'm not terribly interested in arguing this point; I'm just pointing out what it ultimately is, according to basic macroeconomic theory. There's no harm in admitting it's protectionism, as long as we've not all drunk the cool-aid of Globalization that sees all protectionism as a bad thing.

Feathers

I'm not too bothered arguing that point either, so I won't drag us further off topic with my shakey understanding of macro-economics