cat wants to go outside?

Jono!

hey all, as some of you may know we got a lovely tabby cat from the rescue centre about 3 weeks ago now. she's about 7 months and really is great everything we wanted in a cat, and her and our jrt are getting on like a house on fire. so smiles all round

we only have one little problem the last week she has been standing at the back door meowing to go outside, i suppose she sees the dog go out and she wants to see whats out there too. we tried to bring her out on the lead but that failed, she hated it. we have brought her out when one of us is there to watch her to make sure she doesn't escape. unfortunately we don't always have time to go out with her when she wants to, and she is very quick so could easily run off even though one of us is there. we have lots of toys for her and are constantly playing with her and at the moment she's asleep on my lap, while i try and get some work done.

i suppose were just afraid of letting her out incase she escapes or runs off. she is able to jump up on the 4ft wall that divide's ours and our neighbors garden form there she would be able to go up onto the back wall and then off into he alleyway thats behind the garden. we would hate for her to get lost or end up eaten by a stray dog or run over. at the same time we feel bad for keeping her in when she wants to go out, its lose, lose for us at the minute.

any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Bubs99

Hi,

We rescued a 3 month old cat from the vets almost a year ago now and I also asked for advice on Boards. I got 50/50 on whether he should be allowed out or whether it's safer for him to be an indoor cat.
I was also very nervous about letting him out and wondered if he'd get lost, killed etc.

We ended up keeping him indoors for over 3 months, he was a very playful, loving kitten and soon started meowing at the windows and the door constantly.
So, we decided to slowly let him out, we played with him in the garden and soon, let him play for an hour or so.
We used the tricks of the treats to get him back in by shaking his treat box and he'd come running. We also made sure to get him a safety collar with a bell so we could hear him.
Soon, we let him stay out longer and he always came home, we kept the window open and still do for him to come and go.
My cat reminds me of yours, asleep on our laps and cuddled up beside us.

It's been a few months now and it has turned out great. First, we started bringing him in around 8pm then 9pm and I admit, I did panic alot if he didn't appear when we called him but he always returned.

He also doesn't go to the toilet in the house anymore at all, he hasn't used the litter tray in months. His current routine is, to be fed and let out first thing in the morning (they are dawn and dusk animals after all). And he'll come back in for a nap around 10am for an hour or so then off he goes again until around lunch time. Then he snooze's all day away from the heat and then he's off again in the evening for a few hours.

He's a great hunter, not that we want him to kill birds etc. but its in their genes. Sadly we have come home to many dead or injured birds and dead pygmy shrews.

We also make sure to give him the flea and worm treatment because he goes in to the field beside our house and there are many feral's near us also. He is also neutered which helps alot because he doesn't roam to mate.

But he always comes home for a cuddle and food and sleeps on a comfy bed on our bedroom window sill.

I hope you found this helpful.

Sigma Force

Some rescues only home cats to indoor homes so you need to double check your agreement if that's the case first. I wouldn't allow a cat to roam to other peoples property. No1. they can be a nuisance to neighbours ..breaking and entering stealing the sunday roast from the table. No2. Danger of fights with other cats, attacking by dogs, or kids or even adults. No3. Risk of being hit or injured/maimed by a car..esp in winter when they hide under the bonnet for heat..even if they have a warm home to go to. People aren't supposed to allow their dogs to roam for those reasons so why is a cats safety less important than a dogs that's my opinion anyhoo.

There are loads of options but for a low wall I would suggest an aviary type set up or a cilldara or similar companies cat run if you are renting (as it's movable) you can make it as big as you like or you can make it smallish at the start if money is tight and then extend as time goes on.
You could place the avairy/cat run against a wall of the house by a window to save one side panel..and then leave the window open in that room for the cat to pop in and out of or a door using a cat flap. That way the cat is safe and you can customise it, add logs, climbing ramps etc. for fun and even a water feature, planting safe plants to grow outside it etc.

Bobbin10

Jono! wrote: »

hey all, as some of you may know we got a lovely tabby cat from the rescue centre about 3 weeks ago now. she's about 7 months and really is great everything we wanted in a cat, and her and our jrt are getting on like a house on fire. so smiles all round

we only have one little problem the last week she has been standing at the back door meowing to go outside, i suppose she sees the dog go out and she wants to see whats out there too. we tried to bring her out on the lead but that failed, she hated it. we have brought her out when one of us is there to watch her to make sure she doesn't escape. unfortunately we don't always have time to go out with her when she wants to, and she is very quick so could easily run off even though one of us is there. we have lots of toys for her and are constantly playing with her and at the moment she's asleep on my lap, while i try and get some work done.

i suppose were just afraid of letting her out incase she escapes or runs off. she is able to jump up on the 4ft wall that divide's ours and our neighbors garden form there she would be able to go up onto the back wall and then off into he alleyway thats behind the garden. we would hate for her to get lost or end up eaten by a stray dog or run over. at the same time we feel bad for keeping her in when she wants to go out, its lose, lose for us at the minute.

any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hi I have two little ones well 11 months now, I was the same in two minds as to whether to let them out or not, in the end I did, first couple of times me and hub would go out together with them to make sure they didn't run off. As time went on I would leave them out for longer intervals, success!! They are constantly in and out like a fiddlers elbow.

I would always leave my sun lounge window open as was nervous about leaving them out for too long but my nerves have resided now, they can go out for hours on end on "patrol" as I call it always returning with a small furry friend! And now all I have to do is call them and they both come in.

They come in and stay in every night. Just let u little fella out for short burst on his own u'll be surprised at how well they adapt, and can get themselves out of harms way quick enough. I would however I would make sure she is spade before u let her out and ensure she has had vac's.

Hope this helps, good luck and keep calm! She will return 

nachocheese

They're cats, it's completely unnatural for them to be indoors 24/7. They like to run, climb, hunt, hide, watch the world go by, etc.

Get it a bell for its collar, that stopped our lad killing birds or at least stopped him being able to.

We've a cat flap and the cat comes and goes when he likes. I was initially anxious about letting him out but they know where their home/food/safety is.

The actual distance cats typically go from their home isn't far, by the way. Usually quite a small square/circle perimeter which they patrol regularly. They don't tend to make massive trips.

kylith

nachocheese wrote: »

They're cats, it's completely unnatural for them to be indoors 24/7. They like to run, climb, hunt, hide, watch the world go by, etc.

Ditto for dogs, but it's still not acceptable to let them roam.


OP, there are various threads here on methods of containing cats. You can put up a run which is enclosed and attached to the house so the can can go in and out at leisure. Other methods would be to increase the height of your wall with fence panels or chain link, and to put an overhang at the top so that the cat can't climb out. I think one poster on here has even enclosed a huge portion of their garden so that the cat can be unsupervised there, and still has lots of space to play.

I'd recommend persevering with the harness and walking. Take it very slowly and offer treats at each stage: sniffing the harness, putting it over the head, fastening it, attaching a ribbon to it and allowing the cat to become comfortable trailing that around indoors before introducing the lead, etc. After a few weeks you should be able to take the kitty for a walk. Too many people put the harness and lead straight on and then give up when the cat inevitably freaks out. Remember that if you put a harness on an eight month old dog with no introduction they'd go mental too. Slow and steady will get you there much more easily.

fishy fishy

cats are natural hunters and typically they like to be let out to practice their skills. Let the little cat out, but make sure he is hungry when you do- that way the cat will return for feeding. Once the cat gets used to seeing where the outside of his house is, he won't be long coming back.

I think if he wants to be let out, you should let him out. Unlike dogs, cats are timid and will back away from people as opposed to barking, jumping up on, or biting. they are natural hunters. To keep him in would be cruel if he is used to being outdoors.

Ayla

And sheep are natural roamers, so we should let them go where they'd like too. :rolleyes:

The whole "it's cruel to keep a cat indoors" argument drives me nuts!

Bubblefett

I'll be getting my kitten neutered next month then (after Halloween of course) I'll be starting to let him go out.
I'd suggest getting him microchipped and a collar with bell, if he's darker coloured maybe get a reflective collar? Just to help if he gets out on the road.
Best of luck with letting him out. I grew up with cats (mother owned a cat kennels and we'd a few of our own) and in my experience a cat will know that your house is good to go to for warmth, food and comfort so he will naturally want to keep coming back.
We've taught the kitten the word "Whiskers" to associate it with dinner so if we say it, even in conversation, he comes running! Hopefully it'll help when calling him in at night.

missmyler

Ayla wrote: »

And sheep are natural roamers, so we should let them go where they'd like too. :rolleyes:

The whole "it's cruel to keep a cat indoors" argument drives me nuts!

Yes but sheep still get to roam outside in fields (albeit enclosed slightly) where they are supposed to. You dont lock them inside a barn just because it suits you better

Cats love being outdoors just as much as they love being curled up in the house, why deny them this?

nachocheese

fishy fishy wrote: »

cats are natural hunters and typically they like to be let out to practice their skills. Let the little cat out, but make sure he is hungry when you do- that way the cat will return for feeding. Once the cat gets used to seeing where the outside of his house is, he won't be long coming back.

Yeah this is a good tip. Make sure he is hungry when he's first let out.

Something I never did was learning to call him back to the house. If you get him used to associating a sound with food you can let him out and be able to call him back when you want. We've a cat flap so he just comes and goes but if we didn't have it, not being able to call him back would be an inconvenience to both him and us.

Cats maintain a very small perimeter, compared to what they could use given their ability to scale heights. Therefore, even when it's out it'll most likely be within earshot regardless.

Ayla wrote: »

And sheep are natural roamers, so we should let them go where they'd like too. :rolleyes:

The whole "it's cruel to keep a cat indoors" argument drives me nuts!

They do roam. If they had the abilities of cats, they'd roam everywhere too.

Bubblefett wrote: »

I'd suggest getting him microchipped and a collar with bell, if he's darker coloured maybe get a reflective collar?

Yeah reflective collars are great. I don't have one for mine at the moment but I spotted them on cats while driving up the road in the dark the other night and they worked really well.

missmyler

nachocheese wrote: »

We've a cat flap so he just comes and goes but if we didn't have it, not being able to call him back would be an inconvenience to both him and us.

My cat knocks on the window (yes really) when she wants to come in. The previous used to meow so loud outside the backdoor at night to come back in they frequently woke the neighbours up. Some cats you really couldn't lose if you tried

nachocheese

missmyler wrote: »

My cat knocks on the window (yes really) when she wants to come in. The previous used to meow so loud outside the backdoor at night to come back in they frequently woke the neighbours up. Some cats you really couldn't lose if you tried

Brilliant

Our fella will sit beside his food bowl and make the bell on his collar jingle when he wants food but unfortunately for him I don't think it would wake me up should he lock himself out at night

The Sweeper

Keep him in at dawn and dusk, keep him in at night, let him out when hungry and so on.

However, you absolutely must be prepared for the day he doesn't come home. It will happen. I guarantee it. If you don't believe me, search this very forum for 'My cat hasn't come home, I'm worried sick' type posts. Look through the lost and found thread for reports of lost cats. Look at your local supermarket bulletin board or the window in the newsagents. It is only a matter of time until you end up with a cat whose fate you'll never know, or one who comes home to die, or you find him in the gutter outside your house etc.

I don't understand why people on this thread are telling you your cat will be fine. They cannot guarantee that. They just can't. If you let your cat roam free, you expose it to:

Being struck by a vehicle
Climbing in somewhere that it can't get out
Attack from other cats (including risk of spread of FeLV and FIV, which is cat AIDS)
Being poisoned
Being struck, sprayed or even shot by agitated neighbours
Falling foul of people who hate cats - and there are quite a few of them
Attack from dogs - this is a major issue, plenty of dogs will kill a cat if they catch it

If you let your cat roam freely, be prepared for elevated vet bills. You'll need to be very lucky to never have to pay a vet bill from a cat fight injury or other, more serious issue if you have a free roaming cat.

So let your cat roam free if you want to, but please be aware, if your cat roams free there is nobody on an internet bulletin board who can guarantee it'll "be fine".

Heroditas

purplefluff wrote: »

It's not fair to lock him up all day and once he's chipped there is more of a chance of him being ok than going missing!!

Sorry but not fair on who? The cat?
We have three cats - they are extremely happy being indoors cats. One was initially a stray and was terrified of going indoors. She now won't set foot outside the back door. They're creatures of comfort.

Cats need to be stimulated, they don't necessarily need freedom for that.

This whole thing about cats needing to be let outdoors to be happy makes me laugh.
It sounds like the whole argument about cats being a danger to sleeping babies. What's funny about that argument is it usually comes from dog owners to fail to detect the irony!!

missmyler

The Sweeper wrote: »

I don't understand why people on this thread are telling you your cat will be fine. They cannot guarantee that. They just can't. If you let your cat roam free, you expose it to:

Being struck by a vehicle
Climbing in somewhere that it can't get out
Attack from other cats (including risk of spread of FeLV and FIV, which is cat AIDS)
Being poisoned
Being struck, sprayed or even shot by agitated neighbours
Falling foul of people who hate cats - and there are quite a few of them
Attack from dogs - this is a major issue, plenty of dogs will kill a cat if they catch it

If you let your cat roam freely, be prepared for elevated vet bills. You'll need to be very lucky to never have to pay a vet bill from a cat fight injury or other, more serious issue if you have a free roaming cat.

So let your cat roam free if you want to, but please be aware, if your cat roams free there is nobody on an internet bulletin board who can guarantee it'll "be fine".

No one is saying the cat will be fine just that you cant keep it locked up forever. Of course something can happen to them just like it could happen to humans. Doesn't mean I am going to sit in the house for the rest of my life on the off chance I get hit by a car or fall down a drain

kylith

purplefluff wrote: »

The sweeper- we can all worry about what MIGHT happen but if we didn't we wudnt be living life to the full- letting the cat out does pose certain risks and unless they live right by a busy road or motorway it wouldn't be fair to keep it in all the time especially if it had been used to going out before! Once the cat knows where home is and where it gets fed it should be fine! It's not fair to lock him up all day and once he's chipped there is more of a chance of him being ok than going missing!!

As Sweeper said, there is no way that anyone can guarantee that he'll be 'fine', just look at the thread on here about cats being poisoned. Hopefully it's not a deliberate act, but the fact of the matter is that not one pet cat would have been accidentally poisoned if they were in their own home or garden.

We see it on here all the time: Someone posts that their cat is missing and people will post that they're sure he'll be home soon. Sometimes the cat shows up, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't people will post that it probably moved in with someone else - basket in front of the fire, bowl of fish heads, the whole deal, when we all know that in fact the cat is most likely dead, but gods forbid that anyone say that because then they'd be admitting to themselves that by letting their own cats roam they are tacitly setting them up for a similar fate. Statistics show that outdoor cats live a fraction as long as indoor ones. I'm sure someone will be along to tell me about their outdoor cat who lived for 15 years, but this is a statistical anomoly as the average lifespan for outdoor cats is, IIRC, about 5.

OP, if you let your cat roam it may be fine, or it may be attacked by dogs, killed by cars, fall victim to someone who hates cats, or even just make your neighbours annoyed (see other threads). It may live to a ripe old age, but it probably won't.

On a related note: I know two people who went from letting their cats roam to keeping them inside. The first person did it after the cat contracted FIV in a fight. The second person did after one cat was killed on the road, and the second had it's pelvis broken after being hit by a car, these two cats were run over in the space of about a week. They might moan for a while, but they'll get over it and you'll have much more peace of mind.

pawrick

Almost every week my gf is asked to help rehome a cat which has been found wandering, most are pets who got lost when let out. If you do decide to allow your cat roam please have it micro chipped and neutered (and keep the contact details up to date) as it will save other people trouble and expense if they find it.

angeline

As a cat lover I would agree that there are many dangers outside for cats. Too often they fall victim to roadkill, they have a very poor road sense. I owned a neutered male cat who I did leave out but always worried about. The first time he came home with a shattered leg so had a big operation. Shortly after he was sadly killed on the road behind my house which is not a busy road.
I now have a female spayed and microchipped cat. She always wears a refelctive collar and bell when she goes out but I'm extremely lucky that for some reason she never leaves the security of her back garden. She is not a roamer and if she knows I'm leaving the house for even a short while she stays inside. She is a real home bird.
I guess otherwise I would be looking at a garden enclosure as so many cats lose their lives at a young age on the road.

tin79

Why does every cat thread here have to end up with people harping on about roaming. Its like a broken record in here,

Its such a shame too as there are some people with good advice but they seem to get constantly shouted down by the anti-roaming brigade.

And can I just state yes I do have a cat and no we dont let her roam but can we not stay on topic for once?

DBB

tin79 wrote: »

And can I just state yes I do have a cat and no we dont let her roam but can we not stay on topic for once?

I don't believe there's anything off-topic about the discussion so far in this thread tin79! The OP has expressed concern that their new cat wants to go outside, people have come on from both sides, some saying the cat will be fine, others explaining why they believe the cat should not be let out. Unless I'm very much mistaken, this is exactly what the OP was looking for, no?

I think your description of the "shouting down" being done by the "anti roamers" is unfair. The "anti-roamers" as you call them (us, actually, I don't agree with owners allowing their cats to roam either) are concerned for the cat's safety, justifiably so given the fact that so many cats endure a horrible death when away from the safety of their owner's property. And so, the "anti-roamers" will always voice their concerns in these threads, and rightly so.
The one way this particular thread has differed from the train-wrecks that are other free-roaming-cat threads is that this one has remained civil, precisely because nobody from either side of the argument has shouted anyone else down. All points have been delivered politely and reasonably.
I really hope we can all keep it this way!:)

willmunny1990

Cats will roam. Some people really need to get over that.

Neutering the cat is best IMO as it limits roaming and prevents your cat contributing to the ever growing population of feral cats.

I would also microchip the cat and get a collar with a bell on it.

There's always going to be risks involved in leaving a cat out but that's just something people will have to get over, these risks come with owning a cat.

I let my cat out early in the morning before i go to my course and then bring him in at around 6.00pm for the night.

Iv'e my cat 3 years and he's never spent the night outside. He just doesn't stray far from my house which is very fortunate.

DBB

But surely those risks can and should be minimised, no? Many owners here have installed fencing or enclosures so that their cats can spend time outside rooting about, but within the safety of the owner's property. I have to say, I really, really struggle to understand why this compromise seems to be unacceptable to some owners.
And as I posted before, I struggle even more to understand how any owner, of any pet species, could consciously enable their pet to be placed in any number of dangerous, life-threatening situations. It seems anathema to what pet ownership is meant to be. Indeed, it is an attitude that is not shared by cat owners in other countries, for whom having enclosures or fencing, and walking their cats on lead, is the norm.
Not only does safe containment keep the cat safe, which must, surely, be a huge priority for any pet owner, it also stops the cat's toileting activities from annoying the neighbours, a very real societal problem which is often disregarded by some cat owners.
Good welfare is all about compromise. So, surely an enclosure or appropriate fencing is the answer? Cat gets to root about. Cat stays safe from the very real dangers in the outside world. Neighbours are happy.
Can anyone explain to me why this is not an acceptable answer? And to be honest, I don't think "my cat wouldn't like it" type answers are really good enough. There are many examples in these threads where cat owners have stuck at it and now have previously confirmed-outdoor cats happily living indoors or in a secure garden. My dogs don't like lots of things, but for their own good, they have to go through them nevertheless, for the greater good. I'm sure they'd love free access to the whole estate here, but for their own good, and out of consideration for my neighbours and the law, I don't allow them to.
So, am I missing something? This is a genuine question now, I genuinely want to know are there legitimate and widely acceptable reasons why pet cats can't be kept on the owner's property using proper fencing or enclosures?
Again, to reiterate, this thread has remained civil up to now, let's keep it so.

Mo60

I've always had cats, even when I was a child, and they have always been allowed outdoors. When I was young - many years ago - this was the norm.

I lived in London and the suburbs and chose to live where I thought my animals would be safe. I now live in rural Ireland and hope again that my animals are in as safe an environment as I could find. I can honestly say I have never had an issue with neighbours with regard to any of my cats.

I have a large garden at the moment, and besides my own cats I have visits from a neighbour's cats and do not have any problems with this.

The Sweeper

You not having problems with your neighbours about your cats doesn't mean your neighbours don't have a problem with your cats. It just means they don't tell you about it.

There are threads on this forum right now from people who don't want other people's cats in their garden and are looking for ways to keep them out. In previous threads of the same nature I've suggested people speak to the neighbours in question and they've tried, only to be met with derision and comments like 'It's a cat, what am I supposed to do'.

I own six non-roaming cats who have indoor/outdoor access to my enclosed yard. I enclose my yard when I move house as a priority - and until it's cat proofed, they don't go outdoors. I've dealt at length with cat owners having problems with other people's roaming cats. Cats with feline AIDs, coming into their yard and fighting with their own pets. Worse again, people with indoor cats who are completely tormented because their indoor cat pisses up the walls in their house, because someone else's outdoor, free-ranging cat roams through their yard.

Cats are territorial and indoor/outdoor cats tend to consider their territory to be what they can see. If they're indoor only, they'll take the garden outside the window to be their territory and they can be extremely agitated if someone else's cat roams through that yard. Pissing all over the house isn't all of it either - redirected aggression can be a serious problem. I've seen cats surrendered to shelters because of redirected territorial aggression where they attack other pets, or their owners, or their owners' kids, in total frustration because they're indoors watching someone else's cat wander through their yard.

You simply cannot tell me your cat doesn't cause a problem when you let it roam - because the whole point is you have no idea what it does when you let it roam. You certainly can't assume people will tell you if your pet is a problem - it would actually be the exception rather than the rule in this day and age for anyone to confront a neighbour over anything except the most antisocial of behaviour (and even then they're more likely to call the gardai.)

Have some consideration for other people and don't just assume that because they're not in your face telling you about all the times they've picked your pet's shit out of their newly turned flower beds, or worse again out of their vegetable patches, or washed the footprints and scratches off their car, or listened to your pet wind up their dogs or fight with their own cats or scare their pet rabbit or harass their chickens - don't just assume that because people don't want to confront you, everything is a-okay with what your pet does when you don't know where it is and what it's doing.

The Sweeper

Mo60 wrote: »

I have a large garden at the moment, and besides my own cats I have visits from a neighbour's cats and do not have any problems with this.

Your neighbour's cats could have cat AIDS and/or feline leukaemia, both of which are incurable viruses that attack your pet's immune system and will eventually result in their death. FIV is spread through biting when fighting, and FeLV is spread through friendly contact - mutual grooming and even sharing food bowls (saliva spread). The worst thing is that FeLV, the one spread by friendly contact and saliva, is the one that can have a far more serious impact on your cat's longevity and health.

In 2012 universities including the University of Glasgow have started appealing to vet practices to enrol for a prevalence study on FeLV and FIV in cat populations in Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales - mainly because the numbers of FeLV and FIV cats are increasing but there is no solid evidence of the prevalence of the disease. You can be quite sure that if a university is spending research funding trying to test 10,000 cats through veterinary surgeries across the UK and Ireland, there's something to be worried about.

Ayla

DBB wrote: »

...Many owners here have installed fencing or enclosures so that their cats can spend time outside rooting about, but within the safety of the owner's property. I have to say, I really, really struggle to understand why this compromise seems to be unacceptable to some owners.
And as I posted before, I struggle even more to understand how any owner, of any pet species, could consciously enable their pet to be placed in any number of dangerous, life-threatening situations....Good welfare is all about compromise. So, surely an enclosure or appropriate fencing is the answer? Cat gets to root about. Cat stays safe from the very real dangers in the outside world. Neighbours are happy.... My dogs don't like lots of things, but for their own good, they have to go through them nevertheless, for the greater good. I'm sure they'd love free access to the whole estate here, but for their own good, and out of consideration for my neighbours and the law, I don't allow them to...

Exactly. +100.

It is not legally allowed or socially acceptable that the owner of ANY other pet so blatently disregards their duy of responsibility. As DBB said, if you want to allow your cat outside, then find a way of ensuring it doesn't leave your property. Cat gets roaming/hunting time, neighbors aren't hassled, you have piece of mind that your cat is safe. The ONLY reason for not doing this is pure laziness or neglect on the part of the owner.

I appreciate that cats can enjoy going outside, and if they are properly looked after there is no reason why they shouldn't. But just letting them roam wherever they choose really is irresponsible and lazy.

But since we're sharing andicotal stories, I'll throw mine in here too: I grew up on a couple acres off a quiet country road and cannot even recall how many cats we lost over the years. But I know that every cat we ever had never came back (trained though they were at the sound of our voice and food bag). So thinking any cat going outside will be fine just isn't on.

Mo60

I get on with my current neighbours and have done with past neighbours. I have asked my neighbours if they have problems with any of my pets to let me know.

One neighbour has let me know that although she does not particularly like cats, she does not mind mine on her property because they keep rats and mice at bay. Another neighbour has told me she feeds one of my cats even though she has no cats of her own.

After being fed my cats use a litter tray or go immediately outside in my garden. The way some people say about the amount of cat sh!t in their gardens you would think it was elephants we were talking about. I lived in the suburbs for many years and never had issues with other peoples' cats in my garden - but then maybe I am more tolerant than some.

Mo60

Ayla wrote: »

The ONLY reason for not doing this is pure laziness or neglect on the part of the owner.

But just letting them roam wherever they choose really is irresponsible and lazy.

I am neither neglectful, lazy or irresponsible.

Ayla

DBB wrote: »

...So, am I missing something? This is a genuine question now, I genuinely want to know are there legitimate and widely acceptable reasons why pet cats can't be kept on the owner's property using proper fencing or enclosures?

So would you please answer DBB's question? I think it's a fair one.

Mo60

Ayla wrote: »

So would you please answer DBB's question? I think it's a fair one.

I did not know I had to answer this question.

Is there a law that says cats have to be contained? As I have said none of my neighbours have complained, past or present.

Ayla

I don't know about legal requirements, but common sense surely comes into play here. How would you answer DBB's question?

willmunny1990

There are no laws in Ireland that prevent cats from being free outside, at least none that i am aware of.

To say someone is lazy or neglecting a cat just because he/she lets him outside is stupidity of the highest order. Keeping a cat locked up inside 24/7 is cruel and those enclosures are not going to be possible for everyone although they are a good idea IMO.

Ayla

willmunny1990 wrote: »

To say someone is lazy or neglecting a cat just because he/she lets him outside is stupidity of the highest order.

If you're going to disagree with me, could you please at least read & acknowledge what I wrote:

Ayla wrote: »

I appreciate that cats can enjoy going outside, and if they are properly looked after there is no reason why they shouldn't. But just letting them roam wherever they choose really is irresponsible and lazy.

those enclosures are not going to be possible for everyone although they are a good idea IMO.

And, sorry, but enclosures are completely possible. You don't have to fence in an entire garden, but a run (as has been previously discussed) is completely feasible for anyone who cares enough to care.

kylith

willmunny1990 wrote: »

There are no laws in Ireland that prevent cats from being free outside, at least none that i am aware of.

To say someone is lazy or neglecting a cat just because he/she lets him outside is stupidity of the highest order. Keeping a cat locked up inside 24/7 is cruel and those enclosures are not going to be possible for everyone although they are a good idea IMO.

1) Laziness in not erecting fencing
2) Neglectful in that their pet is exposed to the very real possibility of disease and/or death due to roaming unsupervised.
3) Irresponsibility a) due to neglect (see point 2) and b) some cat owners give no thought to the effect their cat may have on their neighbours.

If my dogs were out, even by accident, I would be considered lazy for not having proper fences, neglectful by not bothering to fix my fences so that my dogs couldn't excape, and irresponsible if I did not ensure that my dogs didn't escape again.

As for it not being illegal to let cats roam... I think it's a poor state of affairs when we have to make laws about being considerate of other people in your community. The 'I don't have to, and you can't make me' attitude I see from some cat owners makes me want to weep.

willmunny1990

There not always going to be possible as not everyone is going to have the space available for decent enclosure.

I have read what you said, it's going to be next to impossible for most people to confine a cat to one area unless it's locked up in an enclosure and as i pointed out not everyone is going to have the room required for one plus how would a cat get hunting time whilst locked up in a enclosure?

So you saying it's neglect or lazy for owners to let a cat outside whilst an enclosure isn't possible for them is nonsense.

Ayla

willmunny1990 wrote: »

There not always going to be possible as not everyone is going to have the space available for decent enclosure.

So you saying it's neglect or lazy for owners to let a cat outside whilst an enclosure isn't possible for them is nonsense.

So if there isn't even space for an enclosure, where would you imagine the cat goes? If the garden is too small to enclose a cat, the cat will roam elsewhere. That's my point.

Big garden = run. Small garden = entire garden fenced off. Anything else (IMO) is neglectful.

willmunny1990

Ayla wrote: »

So if there isn't even space for an enclosure, where would you imagine the cat goes? If the garden is too small to enclose a cat, the cat will roam elsewhere. That's my point.

Big garden = run. Small garden = entire garden fenced off. Anything else (IMO) is neglectful.

A cat will leave your property regardless of how big/small a garden is. The only way to stop him leaving your property is if it's locked up in some sort of enclosure.

If your going to fence off an entire garden you will need high fences and some sort of roof covering the entire garden so the cat wont simply climb over it.

In a lot of places Neighbours /council might not be happy with that either.

If you are going down the enclosure route then it needs to be a decent size where the cat can climb, play etc...

I've seen some of these "enclosures" and to be honest a cage is a more fitting word.

Ayla

Yes, everything you said is true. That does not preclude the use of such enclosures though.

Every other domesticated pet has to be contained on the owner's property by whatever means available. As others have said, owners have to contain their dogs, rabbits, fowl, hampsters, birds... This is done for the pet's protection and for the greater good. Why should cats be the only ones allowed to roam? Surely they're not the only natural roamers or hunters?

If a cat owner is 100% against an enclosure, then the only compromise I could see possible is that they stand outside with the cat (as one would do with a dog) to ensure that the cat does not leave the property. Or they lead train the cat & thus take it for walks. Obviously, I can forsee a million disputes against these proposals too. :rolleyes:

Which leaves us back to square one...those who argue cats "should" be allowed to roam b/c they want to & their owners aren't willing to do anything about it.

Mo60

kylith wrote: »

1) Laziness in not erecting fencing
2) Neglectful in that their pet is exposed to the very real possibility of disease and/or death due to roaming unsupervised.
3) Irresponsibility a) due to neglect (see point 2) and b) some cat owners give no thought to the effect their cat may have on their neighbours.

The 'I don't have to, and you can't make me' attitude I see from some cat owners makes me want to weep.

As I said earlier I am neither neglectful, lazy or irresponsible. All the above are just your opinion - nothing else.

As for weeping, carry on. I've lived in many places, here and abroad, and have never come across anyone who fenced in their cats in their garden. Imagine in a large city, such as Dublin or London, if everyone who had a cat erected high catproof fencing. What would that do for neighbourly relations?

Ayla

Mo60 wrote: »

What would that do for neighbourly relations?

Well, if you read a great number of boards threads on this issue, you would see that this would greatly improve a significant number of neighborly issues.

Also, it should be noted that for those who think their cat is in the immediate vicinity of the house there's no way to prove this is always the case. We only have one neighbor, who lives about half a mile away, but we have seen their cats a half mile on the other side of our house (and right next to a major national road). We have also discovered one of their cats a half mile on the other side of their house when (after they'd been searching for it all day) we spied it completely stuck in a tree. So unless you're defining "immediate vicinity" to be a one-mile radius...

Mo60

Ayla wrote: »

Well, if you read a great number of boards threads on this issue, you would see that this would greatly improve a significant number of neighborly issues.

.

I am talking about the millions of people who live in Dublin or London, not the minority who post on this forum about fencing in cats.

I am now bowing out of this discussion as I feel it is going round in circles. I'm sure you will have the last word.

kylith

Mo60 wrote: »

As I said earlier I am neither neglectful, lazy or irresponsible. All the above are just your opinion - nothing else.

As for weeping, carry on. I've lived in many places, here and abroad, and have never come across anyone who fenced in their cats in their garden. Imagine in a large city, such as Dublin or London, if everyone who had a cat erected high catproof fencing. What would that do for neighbourly relations?

Yes, it's my opinion but, as I said, if I treated my dogs the way most people treat their cats; letting them roam, not providing them with shelter, etc. I would be reported to the ISPCA for neglect.

Well, I live in Dublin and the garden walls in my neighbourhood are about 7' high, so cat proofing wouldn't make any difference. Looking around Dublin city centre and having seen some of London there aren't really any gardens there so cats would be indoors, making no difference to neighbourly relations. Honestly, if everyone who had a cat erected appropriate fencing it'd probably improve neighbourly relations because your neighbours wouldn't be annoyed about cats in their garden.

It's amazing that you've never come across anyone who had their cats enclosed; many people I know in the US and Europe keep their cats in; some to keep them safe from predators, most because they don't want their pet straying and possibly getting lost or killed. In Norway, I think, it is illegal to let your cat roam; all pet animals must be under control at all times.

Ayla

Mo60 -

Yes, what I said is my opinion, which I am just as entitled to as you are to yours. Neither of us is alone in our respective camps.

The question must be asked - you keep bringing up the fact that no one has ever approached you to complain about your cat. What would you do if someone did? Would you take actions to ensure your cat does not bother them again, or would you believe them to be in the wrong? To what extent (if any) would you be willing to put the needs of your neighbors over the natural requirements of your cat? Do you feel any sort of legislation is required in this regard to lay down where who-gets-what & who-must-do-what is defined?

What if you discovered a neighbor who was taking action (either ethically or not) to try to prevent your cat entering their property? Would you be angry at the property owner or would you accept responsibility for the fact that you didn't keep your property (i.e.: cat) off of their property?

Mo60

kylith wrote: »

Looking around Dublin city centre and having seen some of London there aren't really any gardens there so cats would be indoors, making no difference to neighbourly relations.

It's amazing that you've never come across anyone who had their cats enclosed; many people I know in the US and Europe keep their cats in; some to keep them safe from predators, most because they don't want their pet straying and possibly getting lost or killed. In Norway, I think, it is illegal to let your cat roam; all pet animals must be under control at all times.

There are no gardens in London? Really! I do not think you have ever lived there or indeed visited any of the urban areas. There are thousands of gardens some quite large.

As I said I have never come across anyone who has cat- proofed their garden, even if you do find that amazing.

acequion

Despite the fact that the mods want this discussion to remain civilised, the intolerance and high handedness of some posters is making that impossible.We live in a society where we are increasingly threatened by all sorts of serious anti social behaviour and there are people who think that pet owners allowing their cats to roam are causing a social hazard! It's almost laughable. As is the idea of turning your garden into a fortress to imprison the poor cat!

The fact is that cats like to roam.Yes the roaming cat will have a shorter life than the indoor cat, but for many it will be a happier one.Some cats adapt well to indoor life,others don't.They're cats, not humans, it's not like we can sit them down and have a chat with them about safety.So,much and all as we love them, let's get real!

As for people objecting to cats in their garden, to me that sounds like total crankiness. Cats are generally quiet and clean animals and as another poster said, keep vermin at bay.Anyone that's so intolerant has a worse problem than cats.

There's a hell of a lot worse roaming our neighbourhoods nowadays than a few errant pets. But no doubt the purists will be jumping down my throat with their replies. So, have the last word, folks. I'm off tho bed with my sweet little tabby, who loves to sleep on my bed and do her spot of harmless roaming while I'm at work.

acequion

Just to add a final point,I have, in fact, lived abroad in Paris and Brussels.In these cities I came across many people who had seriously obese indoor cats.So that's a whole other health issue to consider when deciding if the cat should be indoor or outdoor.

kylith

acequion wrote: »

Despite the fact that the mods want this discussion to remain civilised, the intolerance and high handedness of some posters is making that impossible.

I agree; I think we're all quite tired of people with legitimate complaints being told to 'get a grip' and 'get over themselves' and to 'stop being so precious' about their gardens or pets, which they have put time and money into. Such lack of regard for other people's opinions and concerns really are quite rude, arrogant, and ignorant.

acequion wrote: »

We live in a society where we are increasingly threatened by all sorts of serious anti social behaviour and there are people who think that pet owners allowing their cats to roam are causing a social hazard! It's almost laughable.

And in such times don't you think it behooves us to make life as easy and stress free for other people as we can?

acequion wrote: »

As is the idea of turning your garden into a fortress to imprison the poor cat!

No-one's talking about Portal style armed turrets, just a bit of fencing.

acequion wrote: »

The fact is that cats like to roam.Yes the roaming cat will have a shorter life than the indoor cat, but for many it will be a happier one.Some cats adapt well to indoor life,others don't.They're cats, not humans, it's not like we can sit them down and have a chat with them about safety.So,much and all as we love them, let's get real!

No, we can't talk to them about road safety, so it's up to us, as the species that knows better, to force the issue and keep them safe. Would you be ok with letting a toddler play near the road because, even though he has no road sense, he doesn't want to play in the living room? Would you let a dog roam because it'd be happier? So why do cats get none of that care? How can anyone call themselves an animal lover, then say 'Sure they might only live a couple of years, but so what?'

acequion wrote: »

As for people objecting to cats in their garden, to me that sounds like total crankiness. Cats are generally quiet and clean animals and as another poster said, keep vermin at bay.Anyone that's so intolerant has a worse problem than cats.

Then you won't mind if I bring my dogs over to toilet in your garden? They're only about cat size, and very quiet. I'll even dig up some of your flowers to cover the poo so that you can't see it, like a bacteria laden land mine, just like a cat does.

acequion wrote: »

There's a hell of a lot worse roaming our neighbourhoods nowadays than a few errant pets. But no doubt the purists will be jumping down my throat with their replies. So, have the last word, folks. I'm off tho bed with my sweet little tabby, who loves to sleep on my bed and do her spot of harmless roaming while I'm at work.

acequion wrote: »

Just to add a final point,I have, in fact, lived abroad in Paris and Brussels.In these cities I came across many people who had seriously obese indoor cats.So that's a whole other health issue to consider when deciding if the cat should be indoor or outdoor.

So? I know some very svelte indoor cats. If an animal is overweight then it is the fault of the human who is supplying the food. There are plenty of ways for cats to exercise, either indoors or on a harness and lead.

THOUSANDS of people worldwide contain their cats on their property, but some people in this forum try to claim it's impossible.
THOUSANDS of people worldwide exercise their cats on a harness, but somepeople in this forum try to claim that's impossible too.
DOZENS of people come to this forum, and the gardening one, complaining about cats in their garden and looking for ways to keep them out, yet a large proportion of cat owners seem to be sticking their fingers in their ears because, apparently, it's too much effort to keep your cat to yourself.

DBB

It always comes back to the same thing.
Some cat owners always resorting to blaming those who don't want other people's cats defaecating in their garden, digging up their plants, and spraying on their clothes and property, instead of taking responsibility for their own cats.
It is total head-in-the-sand behaviour. It is utterly unfair to call those of us who don't want to clean up copious amounts of other people's cat's faeces from our own properties (ours. Not yours), who don't want to see our plants dug up and hard work go to waste, who don't want to have to throw out clothes that have been sprayed on, who don't want to have to scrub tom cat's stinking urine off our property. I am at a considerable financial loss, let alone emotional loss at the frustration and ruined garden my neighbour's cats have caused me.

I like cats and have done my share of rescue work with them in TNR schemes, but I have become intolerant of their owner's utter disregard for me. So, if you want to say that people like are "high handed" or "intolerant", perhaps you might want to think about the role your laissez faire attitude about your cat's uncontrolled, unmonitored, destructive activities have played in that. It's not your cat's fault. It's yours.

Cats are clean? How do you make that out? Do you think that burying their faeces, where I can't see it and therefore am more likely to get it all over my hands, clothes etc, makes it somehow more hygienic?

Nonsense. In any case, I am also contending with several visible-from-some-distance middens, faeces piled high, in my garden. It is disgusting, and believe me, I have a high tolerance for poop scooping.
Please don't bend the truth to make your point. Cats are no more clean than any other animal in the faeces department.
In addition, I don't believe for one moment when some cat owners say their outdoor cats live happier lives. Every single day, I see cats around here fleeing for their lives from dogs, cars, kids. I see cats coming into my vets regularly, full of shot, or with horrendous injuries from traps. I saw 3 dead cats on my 7 mile trip into work yesterday.

And again I say, even if their outdoor lives were happier, and I don't believe they are, how can any cat owner come on here, and describe anyone like me as "intolerant", "high handed, or "cranky", when you are prepared to justify allowing your pet to live a substantially shorter life, enduring all the above terrors and more, and meeting a grizzly end? I'm afraid you're in no position to judge people like me, when one of my main causes of "crankiness" when it comes to free roaming cats is their owner's utter disregard for their cat's safety. I am utterly mystified and dumbfounded by this attitude. What if all animal owners took this attitude? This is the type of societal problem I refer to, in addition to the significant problem of feral cat colonies across the country. Yet you call it laughable. I doubt if the feral cats would agree with you there, nor your own cat, when it ends up dying an early, painful death.

I also do not buy the argument that proper fencing won't keep a cat in. Several owners have shown pictures in other threads of unobtrusive, inexpensive fencing which keeps their cat in the safety of their own garden, where they belong.

It's time for some owners to get their heads out of the sand. Stop calling people like me names that we don't deserve because we have more concern for your cat's safety than you do, stop hiding behind excuses that many other cat owners here have blown you out of the water with, and take responsibility for your pet's actions.

People sometimes look at me in horror when I participate in fundraising events for animal welfare, as if my interests and concerns are somehow less important or less valid because I raise money for animals and not humans. Well, when some cat owners call me "cranky", "intolerant" or "high handed", it similarly makes me feel like they are belittling my very valid concerns. This would all be sorted, very easily, if some cat owners would just stop fooling themselves, and taking the mick out of their neighbours, by taking responsibility for the pet you decided to take on. Not me.

Mo60

kylith wrote: »

I agree; I think we're all quite tired of people with legitimate complaints being told to 'get a grip' and 'get over themselves' and to 'stop being so precious' about their gardens or pets, which they have put time and money into. Such lack of regard for other people's opinions and concerns really are quite rude, arrogant, and ignorant.





THOUSANDS of people worldwide contain their cats on their property, but some people in this forum try to claim it's impossible.
THOUSANDS of people worldwide exercise their cats on a harness, but somepeople in this forum try to claim that's impossible too.
DOZENS of people come to this forum, and the gardening one, complaining about cats in their garden and looking for ways to keep them out, yet a large proportion of cat owners seem to be sticking their fingers in their ears because, apparently, it's too much effort to keep your cat to yourself.

So being called neglectful, lazy and irresponsible, just because I have a different opinion, is not rude, arrogant and ignorant?


MILLIONS of people worldwide, the majority, let their cats roam. Are all these people neglectful, lazy and irresponsible?

kylith

Mo60 wrote: »

So being called neglectful, lazy and irresponsible, just because I have a different opinion, is not rude, arrogant and ignorant?

You may think my opinion is rude, but I believe that that's because I'm being vocal and forthright in disagreeing with you.

I do everything in my power to make sure my pets don't impinge on other people; I keep them as quiet as possible, I don't let them roam, I clean up their feces no matter where it is. In my opinion to have little regard for your pets welfare by letting it roam, and to have so little regard for other people in your community that you don't consider the impact your pets could have on them is very rude, neglectful and irresponsible.

I ask you: if your neighbour came to you and said 'Here is a picture of your cat fouling my child's sandpit. Here is one of it digging up my begonias, and here's one of it eating the koi out of my pond. Please keep your cat on your property in future', what would you do?

Mo60 wrote: »

MILLIONS of people worldwide, the majority, let their cats roam. Are all these people neglectful, lazy and irresponsible?

In my opinion yes.