Would you welcome the arrival of the National Childrens Hospital to Dublin 15?

ronan45

I really think the Connolly site is the best choice myself. Would give a great jobs boost to the area also.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/connolly-now-frontrunner-in-childrens-hospital-bid-3228182.html

chucknorris

Yep indeed.

Better transport links, more accessible to people outside Dubiln and the green area proposed is a fair, far better environment to kids, particularly sick kids and the simple thing of going for a walk on a nice day in a green area is something that cannot be achieved on the North Circular.

I'd love to see it on the large state owned green site.

one foot in the grave

This mess is scandalous. International independent reports have clearly laid out best practice. The Mater or James's come closest in this regard. Sure Paddy knows best. (sigh). Many children will spend weeks, some months, in this facility. A city centre location for those parents who cannot afford private transport makes most sense.

Why did we bother asking four independent international pediatricians?

Blanch hospital has no specialties. The Mater hospital houses our National Centre for Cardio-Thoracic Surgery and surgeons from the Mater carry out cardiac surgery in Crumlin Children’s Hospital. The Mater performs heart and lung transplants, houses the National Spinal Injuries Unit and has a child psychiatric unit. It is minutes away from the Rotunda.

The rationale for locating a children’s hospital here was that it would place it between the Neurosurgical and Renal transplant teams in Beaumont Hospital and the Haematology and Burns teams in St. James’s Hospital. This would maximise access to the relevant off site expertise.

Having access to this high level of expertise and resources will provide a better outcome for our nations sick children. I would have thought that would be the priority.

chucknorris

one foot in the grave wrote: »

This mess is scandalous. International independent reports have clearly laid out best practice. The Mater or James's come closest in this regard. Sure Paddy knows best. (sigh). Many children will spend weeks, some months, in this facility. A city centre location for those parents who cannot afford private transport makes most sense.

Why did we bother asking four independent international pediatricians?

Blanch hospital has no specialties. The Mater hospital houses our National Centre for Cardio-Thoracic Surgery and surgeons from the Mater carry out cardiac surgery in Crumlin Children’s Hospital. The Mater performs heart and lung transplants, houses the National Spinal Injuries Unit and has a child psychiatric unit. It is minutes away from the Rotunda.

The rationale for locating a children’s hospital here was that it would place it between the Neurosurgical and Renal transplant teams in Beaumont Hospital and the Haematology and Burns teams in St. James’s Hospital. This would maximise access to the relevant off site expertise.

Having access to this high level of expertise and resources will provide a better outcome for our nations sick children. I would have thought that would be the priority.

If the project of the national children's hospital is centralizing all functions, and Connolly doesn't have some of the specialties, then get them in there.

Your point: "A city centre location for those parents who cannot afford private transport makes most sense."

Connolly is very well serviced by public transport.


Your point: Regarding the Mater's specialties.

The Mater is almost out of cash. They won;t be paying wages in the next month or two at current status.

Your point: "The rationale for locating a children’s hospital here was that it would place it between the Neurosurgical and Renal transplant teams in Beaumont Hospital and the Haematology and Burns teams in St. James’s Hospital. This would maximise access to the relevant off site expertise. "


The M50 ring route is the smoothest, fastest route to either of those locations. The city center is an absolute DUMP in many, many ways.


Paddy knows best

ongarboy

I also support the location and not just for selfish or biased D15 reasons. I would welcome any site on the M50 as it is the most accessible location to the majority of the population of Ireland due to the existing motorway infrastructure. Castleknock train station is not too far away and I'm certain feeder bus services from there as well as dedicated new bus services would also be introduced.

There is already an existing hospital in Connolly so that should reduce many of the start up costs of a green field site. I don't see why some of the expertise from existing hospitals like Mater cannot be transferred to this dedicated new hospital

Mater being a city centre hospital that suffers from chronic traffic congestion in that area would be a disaster. Imagine what it would be like on match days in nearby Croke Park. Even an ambulance trying to transport a child in a critical condition on such a day could face potential life or death delays.

And for selfish reasons,, yes, it may positively impact rental/house prices in D15 as 1000s of new workers (nurses/orderlys/interns/other hospital staff) seek accommodation in this area as well as giving a boost to the local economy of shops/restaurants/facilities etc.

January

Yes, the transport links are excellent, they are minutes from the hotel in Blanchardstown Centre for overnight accommodation for the parents. The green space will be so much better for the kids to get out for a walk (I'm sure they could even think of building a little playground). It's minutes from the M50 which means that nobody will have to face city centre traffic if they are coming from other counties. Parking won't be a problem with the amount of space available.

I really hope it gets the go ahead. Best place for it really. It doesn't really matter that the cardiologists are in the Mater, at the moment they have to travel to Crumlin anyway to do surgeries so they'll just have to travel to Blanchardstown instead.

athtrasna

As someone who lives in Waterville I'm torn. I fear the additional traffic and people trying to park on our roads to avoid paying hospital parking charges. But at the same time, it would increase value and rental potential which would be welcome in these times.

Murt10

I posted previously(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056723974) that they are planning to run the Luas out to Broombridge.

If, and its a big if, Connolly Hosp were to get the go ahead for the new National Childrens Hospital, there would be a strong case for using some of the the money saved by using this site in extending the Luas greenline out to the hospital and on to the Centre,

Edit probably won't happen. Too much joined up thinking.

one foot in the grave

chucknorris wrote: »

If the project of the national children's hospital is centralizing all functions, and Connolly doesn't have some of the specialties, then get them in there.

Your point: "A city centre location for those parents who cannot afford private transport makes most sense."

Connolly is very well serviced by public transport.


Your point: Regarding the Mater's specialties.

The Mater is almost out of cash. They won;t be paying wages in the next month or two at current status.

Your point: "The rationale for locating a children’s hospital here was that it would place it between the Neurosurgical and Renal transplant teams in Beaumont Hospital and the Haematology and Burns teams in St. James’s Hospital. This would maximise access to the relevant off site expertise. "


The M50 ring route is the smoothest, fastest route to either of those locations. The city center is an absolute DUMP in many, many ways.


Paddy knows best

Dublin city centre is accessible by train, tram, bus for all the countrys parents, children and hospital staff. Those that can and can't afford private transport.

All hospitals are almost out of cash. The whole point of co-location is to utilize the specialties of a large teaching hospital - and the resources/equipment/expertise that go along with them.

Connolly has no regional or national specialties nor is it a cancer care centre. Locating the childrens hospital there essentially means a stand alone facility. Not what was recommended or best practice.

Don't sick children deserve to receive the best treatment the State can provide?

one foot in the grave

January wrote: »

Yes, the transport links are excellent, they are minutes from the hotel in Blanchardstown Centre for overnight accommodation for the parents. The green space will be so much better for the kids to get out for a walk (I'm sure they could even think of building a little playground). It's minutes from the M50 which means that nobody will have to face city centre traffic if they are coming from other counties. Parking won't be a problem with the amount of space available.

I really hope it gets the go ahead. Best place for it really. It doesn't really matter that the cardiologists are in the Mater, at the moment they have to travel to Crumlin anyway to do surgeries so they'll just have to travel to Blanchardstown instead.

Sick children, if the NCH were to be located to the Mater, will not only have immediate access to the "cardiologists" but to the support staff/equipment/resources/facilities that go hand in hand where there are regional and national specialties. This is why the McKinsey report in 2006 and the four international pediatricians who wrote Minister Reillys independent review in 2011 all recommended co-locating. It gives sick children better outcomes.

Best place is the Mater closely followed by St James's. Either hospital would the best option. Blanch really amounts to a stand alone facility.

January

So you think the best place for a children's hospital is in the middle of an already gridlocked city centre, where parents would not be able to park their cars and kids wouldn't be able to leave the hospital building because there would be no green area around it?

Co-locating is the best thing, but not when there's no room for it and on top of that co-locating to an already strained, nearly to breaking point, hospital is the worst idea ever.

I'm pretty sure all the equipment and support that is supposed to be in the NCH at the Mater site, will be there in the NCH at Connolly if it gets the go-ahead.

one foot in the grave

January wrote: »

So you think the best place for a children's hospital is in the middle of an already gridlocked city centre, where parents would not be able to park their cars and kids wouldn't be able to leave the hospital building because there would be no green area around it?

Co-locating is the best thing, but not when there's no room for it and on top of that co-locating to an already strained, nearly to breaking point, hospital is the worst idea ever.

I'm pretty sure all the equipment and support that is supposed to be in the NCH at the Mater site, will be there in the NCH at Connolly if it gets the go-ahead.

The best place for a national childrens hospital is co-located with a large teaching hospital that provides national and regional specialties. The expertise/resources/equipment/facilities etc can be pooled between the two hospitals. That can and does lead to better outcomes. Don't you want the best outcome that this State can provide for a sick child?

A new NCH located beside Blanch will not deliver this.

Number_5

I think it would bring massive benefits to the local area. Is d15 the best place for the hospital itself? - I don't know.

Okocim

I would love to see it being located in Dublin 15, but traffic infastructure is not good enough as it is with tail backs and traffic blocks in the vicinity. Would need a regular specific Dublin Bus service to stop specifically in the hospital grounds, not on the motorway like the 39a. A train/luas service extended to the hospital would be another essential BEFORE the relocation, not 20 years after it's placed there.

Banzai600

Somewhere off the M50 like Dublin 15 is ideal.

I think its pure stupidity to have the hospital in the city centre.

You cant get parking, access is bad traffic wise and ppl from outside of Dublin have to travel into the city....Not been well thought out. Obviously the ppl that want it in the city have their own agendas (?).

January

Okocim wrote: »

I would love to see it being located in Dublin 15, but traffic infastructure is not good enough as it is with tail backs and traffic blocks in the vicinity. Would need a regular specific Dublin Bus service to stop specifically in the hospital grounds, not on the motorway like the 39a. A train/luas service extended to the hospital would be another essential BEFORE the relocation, not 20 years after it's placed there.

I haven't seen a tailback on the n3 in months... They could extend the 38/a into the hospital grounds possibly bypassing the village... A private bus company could do a shuttle from the local train station (Castleknock).

You know, at the end of the day, not everybody is going to agree on any location. There's pro's and con's for every single one but we do know the Mater site has been ruled out so there's no point in flogging a dead horse is there?

Co-location would be great, but at what price? You'd be adding thousands more cars into an already gridlocked city centre. The air there cannot be the best for sick children, there's no where for them to play out in the open.

I have a child who will be looking at open heart surgery in the future and all I want for her is the best, if that means Connolly that means Connolly. I'm not worried about co-location when the hospitals seem to be coping fine at the moment with their current set-up. Obviously it's what everyone would like but it's just not possible in our city.

one foot in the grave

Number_5 wrote: »

I think it would bring massive benefits to the local area. Is d15 the best place for the hospital itself? - I don't know.

Yes it would benefit the area and the Ministers in the constituency. Sick children? No. It wouldn't be the State proving the best it can.

one foot in the grave

January wrote: »

I haven't seen a tailback on the n3 in months... They could extend the 38/a into the hospital grounds possibly bypassing the village... A private bus company could do a shuttle from the local train station (Castleknock).

You know, at the end of the day, not everybody is going to agree on any location. There's pro's and con's for every single one but we do know the Mater site has been ruled out so there's no point in flogging a dead horse is there?

Co-location would be great, but at what price? You'd be adding thousands more cars into an already gridlocked city centre. The air there cannot be the best for sick children, there's no where for them to play out in the open.

I have a child who will be looking at open heart surgery in the future and all I want for her is the best, if that means Connolly that means Connolly. I'm not worried about co-location when the hospitals seem to be coping fine at the moment with their current set-up. Obviously it's what everyone would like but it's just not possible in our city.

And what's the price if we don't co-locate? Ironically children with serious cardiac conditions probably have the most to benefit from co-locating this hospital with the Mater.

January

At the moment what do the cardiac children do? Go to Crumlin and get their surgery there! What do any of the kids do? Are they getting sub-standard care? You can bet your ass they aren't! What price are we paying now? Have you got proof that children are dying because the hospitals are not co-located with a specialist hospital?

one foot in the grave

January wrote: »

At the moment what do the cardiac children do? Go to Crumlin and get their surgery there! What do any of the kids do? Are they getting sub-standard care? You can bet your ass they aren't! What price are we paying now? Have you got proof that children are dying because the hospitals are not co-located with a specialist hospital?

The evidence is that co-locating provides better outcomes for sick children esp in specialties such as cardio-thoracic surgery and neurosurgery. This is best practice and was recognised by McKinsey (2006) and Minister Reillys independent review by four independent international pediatricians (2011).

I have no idea what the stats are for Crumlin are. They haven't published an Annual Report since 2006.

JupiterKid

I can understand why some might think it advantageous to have the planned new children's hospital co-located at the Mater or St. James's but medical expertise - whilst of course extremely important - is not everything and amenities such as plenty of green open space, play areas, nature areas and easy access and suitable accommodation for the parents and families of the child patients are also important considerations.

On those grounds I think Connolly makes a good choice of site. Also - Connolly is quite close to the Mater in any case. An Bord Pleanala has rejected the Mater site as inappropriate and the fact that the land beside Connolly is State owned means that costs will be reduced.

IMO locating at Connolly in Blanchardstown is the most sensible choice. The sooner this hospital is built, up and running, the better.

Hilly Bill

To answer the thread title, yes i would welcome the NCH to D15.

one foot in the grave

JupiterKid wrote: »

I can understand why some might think it advantageous to have the planned new children's hospital co-located at the Mater or St. James's but medical expertise - whilst of course extremely important - is not everything and amenities such as plenty of green open space, play areas, nature areas and easy access and suitable accommodation for the parents and families of the child patients are also important considerations.

On those grounds I think Connolly makes a good choice of site. Also - Connolly is quite close to the Mater in any case. An Bord Pleanala has rejected the Mater site as inappropriate and the fact that the land beside Connolly is State owned means that costs will be reduced.

IMO locating at Connolly in Blanchardstown is the most semsible choice.

With respect, if your child is gravely ill, medical expertise and all the supports that go with it I would imagine, would be the overwhelming priority of a parent.

We can choose to ignore the international expert advice of course. But who really draws the short straw?

January

But the fact is that at the moment these children ARE getting the medical expertise they need in other hospitals that are not on the Mater site or the St. Jame's site. Do you think that will stop if the hospital is built in Connolly? Or in Thornton Hall? Or in a greenfield site that's somewhere off the m50?

one foot in the grave

January wrote: »

But the fact is that at the moment these children ARE getting the medical expertise they need in other hospitals that are not on the Mater site or the St. Jame's site. Do you think that will stop if the hospital is built in Connolly? Or in Thornton Hall? Or in a greenfield site that's somewhere off the m50?

Will a stand alone NCH lead to the best level of care that the State can provide for our sick children? I don't believe it will. And that's a crying shame.

Hilly Bill

one foot in the grave wrote: »

Will a stand alone NCH lead to the best level of care that the State can provide for our sick children? I don't believe it will. And that's a crying shame.

Will it be a stand alone hospital? Wont it be in Blanch hospital which is also a sister hospital to Boumont (spl) ?

one foot in the grave

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Will it be a stand alone hospital? Wont it be in Blanch hospital which is also a sister hospital to Boumont (spl) ?

Unfortunately Blanch does not provide any regional or national specialties nor is it a centre of cancer care. When co-located is mentioned it means hospitals within walking distance and the adult teaching hospital having specialties (and the resources/facilities/support staff/equipment that go hand in hand with providing specialties) along with research and educational facilities.

It will really be a stand alone facility.

Nedser101

one foot in the grave wrote: »

Unfortunately Blanch does not provide any regional or national specialties nor is it a centre of cancer care. When co-located is mentioned it means hospitals within walking distance and the adult teaching hospital having specialties (and the resources/facilities/support staff/equipment that go hand in hand with providing specialties) along with research and educational facilities.

It will really be a stand alone facility.

Everything you mention about Connolly is in the present ,this hospital will not be finished for another 10 to 12 years maybe by then it will have many specialties attached to it .
And why if your building a brand new hospital should you be relying on old hospitals .

one foot in the grave

Nedser101 wrote: »

Everything you mention about Connolly is in the present ,this hospital will not be finished for another 10 to 12 years maybe by then it will have many specialties attached to it .
And why if your building a brand new hospital should you be relying on old hospitals .

Another 12 years before it's built? We've just spent a decade fighting over its location. Once a decision is made this hospital should be up in 5 years max. Or maybe it just isn't going to happen.

There will not be any specialties moved to Blanch over the next couple of decades judging by our current financial situation.

Why co-location is best practice i've already discussed on this thread.

Why did we bother asking several independent international experts for their expert advice if we're going to chose to ignore it?

Hilly Bill

one foot in the grave wrote: »

Unfortunately Blanch does not provide any regional or national specialties nor is it a centre of cancer care. When co-located is mentioned it means hospitals within walking distance and the adult teaching hospital having specialties (and the resources/facilities/support staff/equipment that go hand in hand with providing specialties) along with research and educational facilities.

It will really be a stand alone facility.

What about the hospice thats there? Whats within walking distance of where it is already?

one foot in the grave

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What about the hospice thats there? Whats within walking distance of where it is already?

Co-locating a NCH with a large teaching hospital that provides specialties like those provided by the Mater or St.James's can facilitate the best outcomes for sick children. I don't understand your point about the hospice.

Hilly Bill

What makes you think that the new hospital wont have all that it needs after its built?

BostonB

one foot in the grave wrote: »

The evidence is that co-locating provides better outcomes for sick children esp in specialties such as cardio-thoracic surgery and neurosurgery. This is best practice and was recognised by McKinsey (2006) and Minister Reillys independent review by four independent international pediatricians (2011). ...

Personally I have no faith in a process that consistently (perhaps intentionally) creates flawed reports, then uses them as a stick to beat down any objection.

While McKinsey recommended co-location as a preferred option, they made the point that “international experience shows that it is important to weigh a decision to co-locate against pragmatic considerations, including space, and quality of access to potential sites….’’

Over 60% of the children and their parents attending the NPH will come from outside the greater Dublin area. Ease of access for these parents, who by virtue of the ill-health of their children have to travel to the hospital by car, should be a major consideration in selecting a suitable site.

http://thenewchildrenshospital.ie/index.php/mater-site/selection-process/

"They [McKinsey] came up with the pure and clear view that there would be one tertiary hospital in the whole of Ireland and that would need to be supported by all secondary care in the greater Dublin region. [But] they made the very significant point that they [McKinsey] were not asked to talk to any of the hospitals. If you look at the McKinsey report - they have at a number of times stated they weren't briefed to consult with the expert practitioners in Ireland and they did not have access to hospital-specific data on the nature and quantity of care. Then McKinsey says on page 59 of the report that this is subject to the obvious and significant step of translating this into a workable plan ‘which we [McKinsey] have not looked at'," says Dr O'Ferrall.

"But they were almost prohibited from looking at how services are configured in Ireland, and issues like traffic gridlock and location and all the other stuff, and they didn't produce a workable plan. The next thing the Government did was set up a taskforce with the job of simply looking at the location. But they [Government] didn't ask the taskforce to look either at a workable plan or look at how services would be delivered or governed. So the whole focus of everybody then, including the taskforce and the political system, was who would win out," says O'Ferrall.

Co-location was only one of nine criteria laid out by McKinsey that should be used when deciding on the new children's hospital. And even though the McKinsey report said that the new hospital "ideally" should be co-located, the HSE taskforce took this as a binding condition. That, says one eminent paediatrician who didn't want to be named, was done on a misguided assumption. "The logic behind that [co-location] was that you would have the back-up for the occasional rare operation if there wasn't a paediatric specialist available. That is flawed. There is no adult hospital in Ireland that marries a children's hospital ideally." The paediatrician points out that all the adult specialties ranging from cancer to transplants are based across a number of different hospitals in Dublin. "There is no ‘super hospital' that could deliver the benefits of co-location as envisaged in the McKinsey report. There were nine recommendations. It qualified co-location by saying that the advantages had to be described and outlined and if not co-located - so it presented the option of not co-locating."

http://www.businessandfinance.ie/index.jsp?p=164&n=399&a=1574

BostonB

Even aside from all that, I've had the misfortune in the past to spend a lot of time in the Mater with family members. I've yet to have a good experience in the place. Maybe its improved in recent years but my overriding memory of the kip is of squalor, dirt and the lack empathy for patients and relatives.They couldn't demolish the place quick enough for me.

Parking has always been a nightmare around there. Unless its the middle of the night.

We've also been in temple st a lot. When I think of that hospital I first think of parking meters and hunting for change. Got to the point where we had a special bag/sack in the car for coins for parking for hospital visits. If you a regular to outpatient clinic, you'll know they all start at 9 or 10 bang at peak time traffic for the area. The building maybe ancient, but the staff are great in temple st. no complaints there at all. Well other than the admin. But thats another story.

one foot in the grave

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What makes you think that the new hospital wont have all that it needs after its built?

It won't be co-located with James's or the Mater so already it's not the best we can deliver.

one foot in the grave

BostonB wrote: »

Personally I have no faith in a process that consistently (perhaps intentionally) creates flawed reports, then uses them as a stick to beat down any objection.





http://thenewchildrenshospital.ie/index.php/mater-site/selection-process/



http://www.businessandfinance.ie/index.jsp?p=164&n=399&a=1574

The article you quote is full of quotes of those in Crumlin who had wished to see this hospital revamped and increased in size. A "vested interest" you could say. The majority of pediatricians had accepted the report and agreed on the Mater or James's as a location for this hospital.

To quote Dr Jane Collins, paediatric neurologist and Chief Executive of the Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children and her colleagues (the four independent international pediatricians who compiled Minister Reillys independent review) -

"We unequivocally believe that co-locating with tertiary adult and maternity hospitals is essential to the development of an excellent paediatric service. This has become best practice internationally and was recognized in the McKinsey report".

"The reality is that no perfect site is available, and consequently the review team considered those options that are viable and achievable. We understand that no one site has all of the requisite adult and current paediatric services that make that site a perfect choice".

The question is how much more/less important is the issue of ease of access for those with private transport than the level of services/care that can be provided co-locating with a hospital that already provides national/regional specialties and has the expertise/equipment/facilities/resources that go with this provision of services.

At this stage a decision needs to be made and the hospital built.

norrie rugger

Everyone seems to be forgetting that there is already a Children's hospital in Tallaght; it has a green field expansion site, next to the main Campus; is going to be the maternity replacement for the Coomb; is sitting oon the M7/M50; plenty of hotels; Luas transport and parks/cinemas etc.

It should always have been Connolly or Tallaght but Maternity hospital and the Luas connection to both city centre train stations makes Tallaght edge it for me.

chucknorris

International recommendations aside, who did the college of surgeons recommend?

Answer = Connolly.

norrie rugger

one foot in the grave wrote: »

The question is how much more/less important is the issue of ease of access for those with private transport than the level of services/care that can be provided co-locating with a hospital that already provides national/regional specialties and has the expertise/equipment/facilities/resources that go with this provision of services.

At this stage a decision needs to be made and the hospital built.

Forget ease of access, for private transport. Have you ever been in an ambulance trying to get across Dublin City traffic? I have and I can tell you that it is not quick or easy. Now imagine a sick child coming from the fringes of the Donegal or Kerry coast? It is bad enough that our system demands a cross country trek without taking another hour to get from the M50 to the Mater site

one foot in the grave

norrie rugger wrote: »

Everyone seems to be forgetting that there is already a Children's hospital in Tallaght; it has a green field expansion site, next to the main Campus; is going to be the maternity replacement for the Coomb; is sitting oon the M7/M50; plenty of hotels; Luas transport and parks/cinemas etc.

It should always have been Connolly or Tallaght but Maternity hospital and the Luas connection to both city centre train stations makes Tallaght edge it for me.

Unfortunately Tallaght does not provide the range of services/regional specialties that the Mater, James's or Beaumont provide. It hasn't a national specialty nor is it a cancer care centre (I think). Like Blanch, it has been seriously underfunded for many many years.

one foot in the grave

norrie rugger wrote: »

Forget ease of access, for private transport. Have you ever been in an ambulance trying to get across Dublin City traffic? I have and I can tell you that it is not quick or easy. Now imagine a sick child coming from the fringes of the Donegal or Kerry coast? It is bad enough that our system demands a cross country trek without taking another hour to get from the M50 to the Mater site

I don't live in Dublin county and have had to travel there with my children. All three hospitals presently are a pain in the ass. Dublin traffic is. That problem (traffic) can be solved or are we simply not capable in Ireland in 2012 of addressing that?

"We" can ignore the expert international advice about this location. A new hospital needs to be built now. It would be a pity (imo) if we didn't make sure that the very best location was chosen to ensure the best outcomes that we can provide for children.

We have a serious culture of "medical politics" in Ireland, lots of turf wars. When it is built, the merging of the three childrens hospitals will be challenging for many many professionals.

You know, I know a lady who brings her son up to Dublin from Donegal every two months for a check up. She does not have access to private transport. She lands at Busaras then gets walks up to Temple St. She's one of many parents who use public transport to get to Dublin. A city centre location would suit these parents.

one foot in the grave

chucknorris wrote: »

International recommendations aside, who did the college of surgeons recommend?

Answer = Connolly.

The Royal College of Surgeons, the college that is affiliated with Beaumont hospital? Well I never ....

one foot in the grave

BostonB wrote: »

Even aside from all that, I've had the misfortune in the past to spend a lot of time in the Mater with family members. I've yet to have a good experience in the place. Maybe its improved in recent years but my overriding memory of the kip is of squalor, dirt and the lack empathy for patients and relatives.They couldn't demolish the place quick enough for me.

Parking has always been a nightmare around there. Unless its the middle of the night.

We've also been in temple st a lot. When I think of that hospital I first think of parking meters and hunting for change. Got to the point where we had a special bag/sack in the car for coins for parking for hospital visits. If you a regular to outpatient clinic, you'll know they all start at 9 or 10 bang at peak time traffic for the area. The building maybe ancient, but the staff are great in temple st. no complaints there at all. Well other than the admin. But thats another story.

Overall it's fair to say that the majority of staff in our childrens hospitals are hardworking professionals that continue to do their best under difficult conditions. I would like to see more transparency though in how they are run. E.g. Annual Reports should be published every year. From what I can see Temple St last published one in 2009, Crumlin 2006 and Tallaght never.

norrie rugger

I imagine that specialities can be moved a lot easier than trying to fit a hospital into a logistical nightmare site

one foot in the grave

norrie rugger wrote: »

I imagine that specialities can be moved a lot easier than trying to fit a hospital into a logistical nightmare site

Unfortunately, it's quite the opposite. It won't happen for a variety of reasons.

norrie rugger

one foot in the grave wrote: »

I don't live in Dublin county and have had to travel there with my children. All three hospitals presently are a pain in the ass. Dublin traffic is. That problem (traffic) can be solved or are we simply not capable in Ireland in 2012 of addressing that?

"We" can ignore the expert international advice about this location. A new hospital needs to be built now. It would be a pity (imo) if we didn't make sure that the very best location was chosen to ensure the best outcomes that we can provide for children.

We have a serious culture of "medical politics" in Ireland, lots of turf wars. When it is built, the merging of the three childrens hospitals will be challenging for many many professionals.

You know, I know a lady who brings her son up to Dublin from Donegal every two months for a check up. She does not have access to private transport. She lands at Busaras then gets walks up to Temple St. She's one of many parents who use public transport to get to Dublin. A city centre location would suit these parents.

She is able to walk, with her child. A lot are not. I am talking about an ambulance transfer from these areas.

Also people could easily get off the train, get on the Luas and be dropped right at the door of either James's or Tallaght.

norrie rugger

one foot in the grave wrote: »

Unfortunately, it's quite the opposite. It won't happen for a variety of reasons.

Explain please?

Speciality care is primarily the people involved, in giving that care. how would it be harder to move them to a new site?

one foot in the grave

norrie rugger wrote: »

She is able to walk, with her child. A lot are not. I am talking about an ambulance transfer from these areas.

Also people could easily get off the train, get on the Luas and be dropped right at the door of either James's or Tallaght.

They could for James's. Tallaght, like Blanch, does not have the expertise/specialties/facilities that make it a best choice for co-location.

BostonB

one foot in the grave wrote: »

The article you quote is full of quotes of those in Crumlin who had wished to see this hospital revamped and increased in size. A "vested interest" you could say. The majority of pediatricians had accepted the report and agreed on the Mater or James's as a location for this hospital.

Interesting that you fail to mention that the original report, wasn't given a full list of locations to consider. It was given a limited list to begin with. Some would say this was intended to weight the decision to a specific location for political reasons.

one foot in the grave wrote: »

To quote Dr Jane Collins, paediatric neurologist and Chief Executive of the Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children and her colleagues (the four independent international pediatricians who compiled Minister Reillys independent review) -

"We unequivocally believe that co-locating with tertiary adult and maternity hospitals is essential to the development of an excellent paediatric service. This has become best practice internationally and was recognized in the McKinsey report".

"The reality is that no perfect site is available, and consequently the review team considered those options that are viable and achievable. We understand that no one site has all of the requisite adult and current paediatric services that make that site a perfect choice".

The question is how much more/less important is the issue of ease of access for those with private transport than the level of services/care that can be provided co-locating with a hospital that already provides national/regional specialties and has the expertise/equipment/facilities/resources that go with this provision of services.

Even Bord Pleanála thought that one was nuts.

You don't have to take Crumlins word on the relative importance of co-location. I quoted the bit from the original report that talked about it. Seems odd that you want to cherry pick some of the report and not other parts of simply because someone against the plan (Crumlin) quotes from it.

one foot in the grave wrote: »

At this stage a decision needs to be made and the hospital built.

Yes thats what Harney came out with the first time flaws in the plan were pointed out. The logic of lets base the decision on a flawed/bias set of reports, because we're in a hurry, makes perfect sense.

They should have had some sort of weighting of the requirements, then scored all the locations. I don't see whats hard about that. Unless of course some location would have scored so badly on some aspects that it would ruled them out. Then you'd see why they wouldn't do that. Space to expand, none = 0. Cost of land - expensive = 0. Close to a train, bus, national routes, catchment of patients, staff. These are all things that could be measured weighted.

The Blanch site isn't without its own issues. But the process thus far, I've never seen something so bias.

BostonB

one foot in the grave wrote: »

...You know, I know a lady who brings her son up to Dublin from Donegal every two months for a check up. She does not have access to private transport. She lands at Busaras then gets walks up to Temple St. She's one of many parents who use public transport to get to Dublin. A city centre location would suit these parents.

Thats because the train isn't handy for the Mater.

Interestingly that bus goes through Navan, Dunshaughlin, Airport then into town, then she has to walk out. Basically its within a stones throw of Blanch (or indeed anything on the M50, but passes it to get into Dublin. Of course because all Dublin Public Transport is radial, you have to get into the center to get out again.

one foot in the grave

norrie rugger wrote: »

Explain please?

Speciality care is primarily the people involved, in giving that care. how would it be harder to move them to a new site?

Medical politics and money come to mind.

When you provide a national specialty it's not just medical staff that are important, there are a number of professionals who have training in the specialty (like many nurses, physios, social workers), support services will have grown around the specialties like the Radiology dept (with suitably trained medical experts and support staff and the equipment). Facilities will have grown around the specialty like research facilities and extensive range of laboratory services etc. I don't see that we have the money to move specialties like this out to Blanch.

We have dished out specialties across the city for decades without forward thinking. It's a great pity. There is not one ideal hospital to co locate a NCH with. We have three that meet most of the criteria. Mater, James's and Beaumont.