Standing Charge Low Usage

deepriver

I recently got a bill with an inflated estimated meter reading (200 units), which amounted to €54.00 approx.

I submitted the correct meter reading (71 units) and got a bill for €52.

Obviously this was puzzling, but it turns out the bulk of the new bill is based on standing charges

i.e. I have moved from a normal standing charge to a low usage standing charge, which it appears means I pay more for electricity (supply) because I use less.

My query: In another post response ESB refer to the price plans here https://www.electricireland.ie/switchchange/pricePlanElec.htm

However these price plans do not specify what the thresholds for standard usage and low usage standing charges are.

Please direct me to the area of the ESB's website that specifies what the thresholds for standard and low usage standing charges.

EI: Una

Hi Deepriver,

Here is the info on our website re the low usage standing charge.

Regards,
Una

deepriver

And just one last question, is the standing charge rate applied per bill or averaged over a year?

Naturally if my yearly usage was over 2 units per day I will be entitled to a rebate on the low usage charges?

Does this billing method account for seasonal usage?

EI: Una

deepriver wrote: »

And just one last question, is the standing charge rate applied per bill or averaged over a year?

Naturally if my yearly usage was over 2 units per day I will be entitled to a rebate on the low usage charges?

Does this billing method account for seasonal usage?

Hi again Deepriver,

The low usage standing charge is applicable per bill, not reviewed on an annual basis. It does not make a difference what season the billing cycle is - the charge applies to usage of less than two units per day across the board.

Feel free to have it checked any time by contacting us/submitting an accurate reading if needs be.

Regards,
Una

deepriver

Hello Una,

Thank you for getting back to me. I only recently switched back from Bord Gais to Electricity Ireland and it seems now that was not in my best interest.

I have reviewed my bills and prior to making the switch my average bill was approx €34 per month with Bord Gais. Now it seems my average bill with EI will be approx €54 per month, regardless of energy consumption thanks to your low usage standing charges.

So many thanks for sending your sales guy to knock on my door with this 'no brainer' deal. And shame on me for signing up

I checked the small print of the contract and the sales guy did actually make me aware of the low usage standing charges and had me initial them. Perhaps EI's billing department realised this may become an area of contention when low usage groups such as OAPs, single person dwellings etc made the switch and experienced higher utility bills despite the promises of discounts?

Thank you for previously sending the link to me in regards low usage standing charges, just reading through the full FAQ I came across this

"We have set the daily threshold at a very low level (average two units or less per day per billing period) and are confident that only empty/vacant households and premises will attract this increased charge"

My household is not vacant and I do live there, but simply consume energy in a responsible and efficient manner.

Accordingly because this appears to be an oversight or anomaly in your billing strategy which has unfairly penalised me and increased my energy bills in return for low usage, can you please apply standard usage standing charges to my account?

I will DM you all billing information to enable you to do this if possible?

EI: Una

Hi Deepriver,

The low usage standing charge is applicable (unless in the case of customers who receive a Free Electricity Allowance/are on the Household Budget Plan/have Pay As You Go meters) when less than two units per day is used - and I cannot guarantee any reversal can be made in this regard. However, it is no problem for us to review individual cases - do indeed private message me with your Electric Ireland account number and your name/address as they appear on the account in full, as well as one other piece of information for data protection/security - either your date of birth or the contact telephone number on your account.

Regards,
Una

deepriver

Hi Una,

I have just sent you my account details.

feichin

I'm sure Electric Ireland have themselves well covered somewhere deep in the small print but I was under the impression the standing charge was uniform across the board by all suppliers and was passed on directly to ESB Networks to cover network costs

EI: Una

Hi Feichin,

As per the low usage standing charge FAQ on our website:

The charge is being introduced to enable Electric Ireland recover the costs associated with providing electricity to customers with very low consumption. These costs include a combination of the fixed charges associated with meter reading, network maintenance and a share of the supply costs incurred in servicing electricity accounts and are normally recovered through a combination of electricity units and standing charges. However, in situations where there is very low electricity usage as in the case of a vacant premises, these costs are not recovered fully. This charge will allow Electric Ireland to recover its costs in such circumstances.

Regards,
Una

deepriver

We have reviewed your account and, having clarified that it is not on a FEA Allowance/Household Budget plan/Pay-As-You-Go meter, unfortunately there are no grounds for removing the low usage standing charge.

Hi Una,

The grounds for removing the low usage standing charges are:

"We have set the daily threshold at a very low level (average two units or less per day per billing period) and are confident that only empty/vacant households and premises will attract this increased charge"

As I have already mentioned my household is not empty and I live there.

I have reviewed the Electricity Supply Terms And Conditions document (valid 1st October) given to me in the switching pack by the EI door to door sales person, and it does not actually communicate nor include nor make reference to the low usage standing charges. Indeed the sales person did not supply me with any tariff plan or information.

I also note these low usage standing charges are not set-out in the price plans section of EI's website which you so frequently refer to but are hidden in another section on another webpage with no readily available link from the price plan pages.

On the basis that:

a) My house is not vacant

b) The sales person did not supply me with tariff information in regards the low usage standing charges

Can you please:

A) Review my EI account again with a manager in order to apply the normal standing charges to my account

Failing that send me by direct message the contact details of that manager so that I can contact that person directly by email or post

I am currently reviewing the Ombudsman's website and I believe if EI do not comply with my requests above, my next step would be to make contact with them to see if they can assist with the matter.

Thank You.

Electric Ireland: David

Hi deepriver,

Una is currently looking into this for you and will be back to you shortly.

deepriver wrote:

I also note these low usage standing charges are not set-out in the price plans section of EI's website which you so frequently refer to but are hidden in another section on another webpage with no readily available link from the price plan pages.

While there isn't a direct link to the Low User Standing Charge FAQ, we do outline the charge in the tariff section of our price plan page(s):



Thanks,

David.

EI: Una

deepriver wrote: »

Hi Una,

The grounds for removing the low usage standing charges are:

"We have set the daily threshold at a very low level (average two units or less per day per billing period) and are confident that only empty/vacant households and premises will attract this increased charge"

As I have already mentioned my household is not empty and I live there.

Hi Deepriver,

The above is just a guideline as to what we expect to be applicable in the vast majority of cases - that is not to say there would not be exceptions though; however, units used is the only criterion for this charge.
The main reason we are confident of the majority of cases of the charge applying to empty/vacant premises is: the low usage standing charge threshold of less than two units per day is seven times less usage than that of the average residential household.

b) The sales person did not supply me with tariff information in regards the low usage standing charges

Just to clarify, Deepriver: a previous post of yours to this thread seems to indicate that the sales rep made you aware in this regard, however if we have misinterpreted, apologies.

With regard to the remainder of your query, I will respond to you by private message.

Regards,
Una

SIG

I have received bills from Electric Ireland with low usage charges. This is totally illegal. There is no contract to be robbed and its unenforcable at law.
Even if you signed a contract since they started this practice, you must be made aware that you are about to sign to be robbed by this method. If you have not been so informed then you have been duped and are not oblidged to pay this charge. I have paid the real bill for goods/service provided ( deducting the illegal extortion attempt ) and heard nothing afterwards. I advise all to do the same NOW.

archer22

SIG wrote: »

I have received bills from Electric Ireland with low usage charges. This is totally illegal. There is no contract to be robbed and its unenforcable at law.
Even if you signed a contract since they started this practice, you must be made aware that you are about to sign to be robbed by this method. If you have not been so informed then you have been duped and are not oblidged to pay this charge. I have paid the real bill for goods/service provided ( deducting the illegal extortion attempt ) and heard nothing afterwards. I advise all to do the same NOW.

Yes of course this is a total scam and just extortion and theft and its amazing that they are getting away with it.Imagine if a pub for example started charging drinkers who only have one or two drinks a "low usage charge" or a restaurant or any other business.As for it being to pay for meter readers..what meter readers?..I have not seen here for nearly a year.Its all just another way of getting your hard earned money into their pockets and giving you nothing for it.Total dishonesty..but whats new in Ireland :rolleyes:.

SIG

Lets publicise the facts and then people can react by not paying. I feel a legal challange coming on !. The cost of meter is dealth with in the usual standing charge. BTW I have over 100 meters, some of which were installed in the Sixties. Now have they been well paid for ?. Another matter is the veracity of the meters - do they ever have to be re-calibrated ? , like petrol pumps, weighing scales etc. Yet if you are cut off for more than 6 months by EI you have to be re-certified by an Electrician - another SCAM. BUT NOT THEIR METER.

EI: Una

Hi all,

Just to advise: the low usage standing charge was introduced on 1st February, 2012. Notification of the introduction and rationale was published in the national press on 30th December, 2012. Click here for further info.

Electric Ireland sent a bill insert with all paper bills, and an email to all online billers in February/March also.

Regards,
Una

SIG

That EI published its rip off scheme does not make it legitimate. The charge is illegal - POINT BLANK. Why have EI not sued their customers that have refused to be robbed ? - Answer they dont have a leg to stand on. Get real EI.

Priori

SIG wrote:

The charge is illegal - POINT BLANK

Not sure how it's illegal, but it's the most ridiculous charge I've ever come across. To my mind it gives out the message - be energy efficient, but not so energy efficient that we can't make a profit! (as we only care about being seen to be concerned about energy efficiency and the environment). Their fuel-mix doesn't really indicate they care much about the environment, and this charge certainly shows that they don't really care about energy efficiency.

archer22

Priori wrote: »

Not sure how it's illegal, but it's the most ridiculous charge I've ever come across. To my mind it gives out the message - be energy efficient, but not so energy efficient that we can't make a profit! (as we only care about being seen to be concerned about energy efficiency and the environment). Their fuel-mix doesn't really indicate they care much about the environment, and this charge certainly shows that they don't really care about energy efficiency.

Oh its not that they are not making a profit..its that they feel they are not making enough profit,in other words greed..the same type of greed that has already wrecked this economy beyond repair.And I cant understand how it can be legal to charge somebody for not using your product..its like something that Del-boy Trotter would come up with..maybe Electric Ireland's next name change should be to..Trotter Electric Services!!.

SIG

The charge is ILLEGAL if you did not CONTRACT to be penalised for non purchase of goods/services. If you did contract without being aware your consumer rights are still valid. I suggest those who have paid go to the Citizens advice Bureau or FLAC for advise. The last CEO is ESB / EI was paid about € 700 k per year . Now that tells whats going on - GREED - GREED ad nauseam.

EI: Una

Hi again,

In April 2011, Electric Ireland was deregulated, with the result that we may make changes to prices and charges on occasion. This is the case for service providers in general.

Regards,
Una

SIG

Well Una, Just because EI was deregulated does not mean it can charge for non preformance. Also there is the matter of VAT.
You cannot be charged VAT where a service or good are not delivred - so vat is also not payable on a non est .......
Your whole effort to charge for non delivrey is ILLEGAL. When people realise what is going on you will have to refund the monies
extorted by fear & bullying.

Madam_X

Oh look it's hardly illegal - if it is... call the ombudsman - it'd be interesting to see whether they could do anything about it. I'd imagine they couldn't. A large, legitimate company is not going to do something illegal and tell the world about it.
I wholeheartedly disagree with the charge too but "It's ILLEGAL!!!" is total melodrama and gets thrown around far too cavalierly, and I wonder do those who just trot it out actually think about the implications of such a statement.

archer22

Madam_X wrote: »

Oh look it's hardly illegal - if it is... call the ombudsman - it'd be interesting to see whether they could do anything about it. I'd imagine they couldn't. A large, legitimate company is not going to do something illegal.
I wholeheartedly disagree with the charge too but "It's ILLEGAL!!!" is total melodrama and gets thrown around far too cavalierly, and I wonder do those who just trot it out actually think about the implications of such a statement.

"a Large,legitimate company is not going to do something illegal" :D:D:D.Thanks I needed a good laugh.

Madam_X

I know people who are conspiracy theorists think they're well enlightened, but actually... things are usually as they seem. Prove this is illegal.

archer22

Madam_X wrote: »

I know people who are conspiracy theorists think they're well enlightened, but actually... things are usually as they seem. Prove this is illegal.

Well then you prove that its legal and base it on something other than a" large legitimate company would not do anything illegal"..yeah right like Anglo Irish bank and overcharging of customers by AIB and others etc etc never really happened and is only a conspiracy theory obviously :rolleyes:.

Madam_X

And they turned out to be non legit. Plus, their shenanigans were on the sly. They didn't go telling the press about it! Do you really think the ESB is along the same lines? If this was actually *illegal* there would be cause for uproar, yet ESB has communicated it to the public. Be realistic.

I fully agree with objecting to the charge, and I support a degree of scepticism when it comes to a lot of issues, but saying stuff that's not true just discredits points.

Priori

I think SIG might have a point about it not being entirely legal; at least in relation to the issue of charging VAT on a service not delivered. I'm no expert in matters legal, but have a look at this thread on Eircom to see what I'm talking about.

archer22

Madam_X wrote: »

And they turned out to be non legit. Do you really think the ESB is along the same lines?

Looks that way and so if it looks like a Duck and quacks like a Duck it probably is a Duck.

Mollywolly

Priori wrote: »

I think SIG might have a point about it not being entirely legal; at least in relation to the issue of charging VAT on a service not delivered. I'm no expert in matters legal, but have a look at this thread on Eircom to see what I'm talking about.

First off, thanks for the link to SIG's thread on Eircom. I found that particularly interesting since I've also been switched to the low usage charge for a cottage in Kerry.

One thing that annoyed me though (and maybe Una can help out here) was that we had some work carried out and used some electricity, so I submitted the reading when we got the last bill. The strange thing is that, instead of amending the bill, we were presented with an additional bill for the electricity used plus standing charges for another 14 days. This 14 days was the difference between the date of the first bill and the date I submitted the reading.

Surely it would have been far simpler to add the electricity used to the old bill and issue an amended bill, rather than "creating" an additional billing period of 14 days and adding the electricity used to that?

It's so confusing and I'll be watching out for the next bill because I'm concerned now that EI may try to charge me twice for the standing charge part of the bill.

EI: Una

Hi Mollywolly,

If you are the named account-holder I can check this for you no problem - I just need the following details: the Electric Ireland account number, your name/address in full as they appear on the account, and either the contact telephone number on your account or your date of birth.

Regards,
Una

Mollywolly

Electric Ireland: Una wrote: »

Hi Mollywolly,

If you are the named account-holder I can check this for you no problem - I just need the following details: the Electric Ireland account number, your name/address in full as they appear on the account, and either the contact telephone number on your account or your date of birth.

Regards,
Una

Thanks. PM sent.

SIG

Funny how its melodrama to say the charge is illegal. Well many many items that are supposed to be LEGAl when challanged are found not to be so. thats why we have courts !!. I know of persons who have paid the bill less the 'low usage' and nothing has been forthcoming about it.
Its a try on believe me.

Madam_X

Well I obviously can't say you're wrong for certain, but it strikes me as rather stupid of any company to do something illegal just for the hell of it and happily publicise it...

Saying "It's illegal" without any actual solid substance does sound kinda edgy though...

deepriver

Hi Una,

I just received another bill from Electric Ireland and again the low usage standing charge has been applied. I was hoping my usage would increase seasonally and push me over the 2 unit daily threshold but its not the case.

As mentioned before the 2 unit per day threshold was set as EI were "confident" occupied houses would exceed this level.

My house is not vacant and I do not exceed 2 units per day of usage, so clearly EI's billing pricing department have made an error in calculation.

Some interesting points have been made by other posters on the legality of this, i.e. charging someone for not using your product, charging vat on non usage and I will be looking into this from a legal perspective and may well raise this with the regulator / ombudsman.

I suggest one of two alternatives however.

1. Place me on the normal standing charges as my house is NOT vacant

2. Void the contract and allow me to move to another supplier that does not have punitive rates for low usage.

Can you please look into doing one of these two?

deepriver

Madam_X wrote: »

Well I obviously can't say you're wrong for certain, but it strikes me as rather stupid of any company to do something illegal just for the hell of it and happily publicise it...

Saying "It's illegal" without any actual solid substance does sound kinda edgy though...

This springs to mind Madame_X, any organisation or body is capable or breaching the law and being held accountable, even governments and semi states!

http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/News/Media-Releases/2012-Media-Releases/Mobility-Allowance-Scheme-Ombudsman-publishes-special-report-to-the-Houses-of-the-Oireachtas.html

EI: Una

Hello Deepriver,

Is your latest bill based on a meter reading or is it an estimate?

Regards,
Una

deepriver

its a meter reading
thanks

EI: Una

Hi Deepriver,

Unfortunately we cannot remove the low usage standing charge if it is below two units per day, whether the premises is vacant (which is the case with the vast majority of premises to which the charge is applied) or not.

With regards to any specifics on your account, I would need to correspond with you by private message.

Regards,
Una

Heroditas

deepriver wrote: »

Some interesting points have been made by other posters on the legality of this, i.e. charging someone for not using your product, charging vat on non usage and I will be looking into this from a legal perspective and may well raise this with the regulator / ombudsman.

It's a standing charge.
You're using the product simply by being connected to the grid.

SIG

A standing charge is an acceptable ( Rent of apparatus et al) which is fine. However a low usage is a penalty for not using a service or goods. It is not legal to charge for a non service. It is illegal to charge vat on non delivrey of goods/service. There are many cases decided which have fraud as their basis. This is fraud.

grange mac

Do other providers have this low usage charge. Just got a bill €45 with €40 being low usage....wtf!!! THIS IS A RIP OFF AND I WILL DO MY BEST TO AVOID IT....what if I put in a prepay meter?? Can it be avoided that way??

Inkie

grange mac wrote: »

Do other providers have this low usage charge. Just got a bill €45 with €40 being low usage....wtf!!! THIS IS A RIP OFF AND I WILL DO MY BEST TO AVOID IT....what if I put in a prepay meter?? Can it be avoided that way??

There is no way possible that €40 of your €45 bill was just for Low User Standing Charge! Because 13.5% of the bill alone is for VAT, there is also PSO Levy that is charged around €1.80 per month and even if there is no low user charge on your bill you still get charged normal daily Standing Charge. I'm on a daily standing charge of 0.3036 cent. So an average bill (60 days) if you add up these three - normal standing charge, PSO Levy and VAT (and I'm not adding in electricity usage here) the bill would be around €25 so where are you getting €40 from for just one charge i.e. the lower user charge?????

Electric Ireland: David

Hi grange mac,

The low user standing charge does not apply to customers who receive a Free Electricity Allowance, or those on the Household Budget Plan or with Pay As You Go meters. However, PAYG meters are reserved for customers in arrears, and eligibility for these meters is assessed in line with the directives of the CER.

Was your latest bill estimated? If you receive an estimated bill with a low user standing charge and you feel it may be incorrect, you can adjust your meter reading online at anytime, or PM us with your account details and we will adjust your bill for you. We can remove the charge if your usage is above the average two units per day threshold for the billing period in question.

If you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks,

David

grange mac

Inkie wrote: »

There is no way possible that €40 of your €45 bill was just for Low User Standing Charge! Because 13.5% of the bill alone is for VAT, there is also PSO Levy that is charged around €1.80 per month and even if there is no low user charge on your bill you still get charged normal daily Standing Charge. I'm on a daily standing charge of 0.3036 cent. So an average bill (60 days) if you add up these three - normal standing charge, PSO Levy and VAT (and I'm not adding in electricity usage here) the bill would be around €25 so where are you getting €40 from for just one charge i.e. the lower user charge?????

Bill = esb charge 68c, standing chg low usage 67 days @ .5418!!! = 36.30 , pso 4.64e , vat on total 5.62....

My low usage unit cost seems excessive!!!

Electric Ireland: David

Hi grange mac, just got your PM there, thanks. On the face of it, it appears that the low user standing charge you quote is for a rural domestic customer. Rural standing charges are higher than the corresponding urban charges, due to the greater costs associated with operation/maintenance of the transmission network.

SIG

Don't pay these bills. Ask for copy of a contract that you signed where you agreed to be ripped off. If you are an old customer you will find it does not exist. Ask them to take you to court and watch what happens - NOTHING. Its illegal.

.BrianJM

SIG wrote: »

A standing charge is an acceptable ( Rent of apparatus et al) which is fine. However a low usage is a penalty for not using a service or goods. It is not legal to charge for a non service. It is illegal to charge vat on non delivrey of goods/service. There are many cases decided which have fraud as their basis. This is fraud.

I would argue that the service and/or goods have been delivered and so VAT is justified.  If the goods/services are not used then that is the user's responsibility.

2 units per day is very little.  Is O.P. using gas for all cooking (including making tea/coffee), hot water, heating and refrigerator/freezer… …and no tv along with a few other 'essentials'?   
It could be that he/she is away from home for long periods at a time in which case ESB would probably be more understanding in this matter. 

SIG

Update to all this nearly a year later. I waited until EI sent the Solicitor after me. I write a nice letter to the Solicitor asking for a copy of my contract showing where I had agreed to such a charge. After several communications the Case dropped. QED. Fight them.

SIG

update Jan 7 2014. Contacted Bord Gais re Low Usage Charge - they do not have such a charge. As I work with multiple!e clients I now advise all to change from EI.

Bubbling

5 and a half years later and these Low Use Standing Charges are still being applied at 60.8c per day, €18.91 per month, €222.65 per year, where there is no electricity usage with Electric Ireland (on a vacant house).

Any advice on what supplier(s) have better standing charge rates?