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11th Sep "Catalonia National Day"

  • 11-09-2012 9:04am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23


    Today is the National Day in Catalonia. Today we commemorates the defeat of the Catalan troops during the War of the Spanish Succession. The Catalan troops that supported the Habsburg dynasty were defeated at the Siege of Barcelona by the troops of Bourbon Philip V of Spain on 11 September 1714 after 14 months of siege. The holiday was officially reinstated in 1980 by the autonomous governing body of Catalonia, the Generalitat de Catalunya, upon its restoration after the end of the Franco dictatorship.
    Independentist organizations and political parties traditionally lay floral offerings at the monuments of the leaders of the defence of the city Rafael Casanova and General Moragues for their fight against the king Philip V of Spain. Typically, Catalan nationalists organize demonstrations and meet at the Fossar de les Moreres of Barcelona, where they pay homage to the defenders of city who died during the siege and were buried there. Throughout the day, there are independentist demonstrations and cultural events in most of Catalan villages and more than 50% citizens wave senyeres and estelades.


    Today in Barcelona they expecting the biggest demonstration of all times for the Independents Of Catalonia.


    What do you think? when more of the half of the population of a region want to be independent of Spain? and the population are very angry with the way spain is been treated the Catalans for the past years.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/catalan-independence-rally-barcelona
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/world/europe/12iht-barcelona12.html


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 Arasnatra


    Arasnatra wrote: »
    Today is the National Day in Catalonia. Today we commemorates the defeat of the Catalan troops during the War of the Spanish Succession. The Catalan troops that supported the Habsburg dynasty were defeated at the Siege of Barcelona by the troops of Bourbon Philip V of Spain on 11 September 1714 after 14 months of siege. The holiday was officially reinstated in 1980 by the autonomous governing body of Catalonia, the Generalitat de Catalunya, upon its restoration after the end of the Franco dictatorship.
    Independentist organizations and political parties traditionally lay floral offerings at the monuments of the leaders of the defence of the city Rafael Casanova and General Moragues for their fight against the king Philip V of Spain. Typically, Catalan nationalists organize demonstrations and meet at the Fossar de les Moreres of Barcelona, where they pay homage to the defenders of city who died during the siege and were buried there. Throughout the day, there are independentist demonstrations and cultural events in most of Catalan villages and more than 50% citizens wave senyeres and estelades.


    Today in Barcelona they expecting the biggest demonstration of all times for the Independents Of Catalonia.:rolleyes:


    What do you think?
    More of the half of the population of a region want to be independent of Spain? and the population are very angry with the way spain has been treating the Catalans for the past years.



    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/catalan-independence-rally-barcelona
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/world/europe/12iht-barcelona12.html



    Something interesting to watch ( is not from the 11th September 2012) but explains a lot of what is happening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭The Browser


    I'm not symapthetic to nationalism of any hue. I knew an ardent Catalan nationalist once and a good impression was not made. In general, I support the dissolution of borders, not the creation of new ones. Sorry!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 Arasnatra


    You are entitled to your own opinion.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Arasnatra wrote: »
    You are entitled to your own opinion.
    That's very generous of you.

    For what it's worth, it's a view that many of us share. Nationalism and religion vie for the top spot in the list of reasons for senseless conflict, and I for one would love to see both relegated to the status of historical curiosity. I recognise that I'm in a minority, but I live in hope.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,768 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Hopefully the asperations of the Catalons can be met within the aspects of the EU, which has (IHMO) at least attempted to deal fairly with regional issues. Then again, I in contrast to oscarBravo, I'd rate most forms of Nationalism and Religion as sum contributors to the stability of a society.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MOD NOTE:

    Please do not post video links without an explanation, or links-only posts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭eire4


    Having over 1.5 Million show up for the day is very impressive indeed. It will be very interesting to see how the Catalan elections go on November 25 with the government calling for them 2 years in advance of when they were scheduled. The elections clearly been a form of referendum on Catalan demands for independance.


    _62836353_lvsilnyu.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I'm not symapthetic to nationalism of any hue. I knew an ardent Catalan nationalist once and a good impression was not made. In general, I support the dissolution of borders, not the creation of new ones. Sorry!
    I wonder if you have met any ardent Spanish nationalists.
    If you had, you would understand why the Catalans want to secede; what is happening here is really a divorce, with one of the parties - overbearing, brash, arrogant - struggling to keep the other in line long after the relationship has had any meaning.

    And i don't think it's so much that they want to create new borders, more that they want control over their own affairs, by removing what they see as a useless level of bureaucracy at the top.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭DaveyCakes


    deirdremf wrote: »
    I wonder if you have met any ardent Spanish nationalists.
    If you had, you would understand why the Catalans want to secede; what is happening here is really a divorce, with one of the parties - overbearing, brash, arrogant - struggling to keep the other in line long after the relationship has had any meaning.

    And i don't think it's so much that they want to create new borders, more that they want control over their own affairs, by removing what they see as a useless level of bureaucracy at the top.

    Which partner are you talking about here, because that's exactly how I would describe my (admittedly brief) experience of Barcelona and Catalonia.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 167 ✭✭passarellaie


    DaveyCakes wrote: »

    Which partner are you talking about here, because that's exactly how I would describe my (admittedly brief) experience of Barcelona and Catalonia.
    Catalans are a very pragmatic people and I would find it extrsordinary if they vote for independence.What they stand to lose would be enormous.It may appear on the surface they have much to gain but.
    For example the biggest Castillian Spanish publishing city in the World is Barcelona which plays a massive part in supplying 500 million Spanish speakers around the World with product.Hardly likely to continue if a Catalan speaking state emeges now is it?
    Catalonian investment in Spanish speaking America is massive.South Americans are very well disposed to the Patria Madre which would cost the Catalans a fortune.These things will become ever more apparent as d day approaches.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I'm not symapthetic to nationalism of any hue. I knew an ardent Catalan nationalist once and a good impression was not made. In general, I support the dissolution of borders, not the creation of new ones. Sorry!
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That's very generous of you.

    For what it's worth, it's a view that many of us share. Nationalism and religion vie for the top spot in the list of reasons for senseless conflict, and I for one would love to see both relegated to the status of historical curiosity. I recognise that I'm in a minority, but I live in hope.
    I seem to recall that the abolition of national boundaries was tried in a country called Yugoslavia. Anyone care to remind us of how THAT turned out?

    And yet today, we have a new superstate, the European Union, whose thirst for the destruction of national democracy and rule from Brussels has already destroyed Greece.

    There was also another historical superstate called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, another attempt at getting rid of the national borders ye dislike so much. How did that work out for the people of the USSR? And what did the people of the USSR do when they were able to overthrow it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    DaveyCakes wrote: »
    Which partner are you talking about here, because that's exactly how I would describe my (admittedly brief) experience of Barcelona and Catalonia.
    Well, it might be that you had the misfortune to meet some of the very many Spanish people who live in barcelona!
    Catalans are a very pragmatic people and I would find it extrsordinary if they vote for independence.What they stand to lose would be enormous.It may appear on the surface they have much to gain but.
    For example the biggest Castillian Spanish publishing city in the World is Barcelona which plays a massive part in supplying 500 million Spanish speakers around the World with product.Hardly likely to continue if a Catalan speaking state emeges now is it?
    The Spanish-language publishing world is very, very fragmented. Books in Spanish produced in Madrid can be difficult to find in Barcelona and vice versa. It would have virtually no presence in Latin America, outside of a small number of household names like Vargas Llosa, García Márquez and Isabel Allende.
    Catalonian investment in Spanish speaking America is massive.South Americans are very well disposed to the Patria Madre which would cost the Catalans a fortune.These things will become ever more apparent as d day approaches.
    Why would it make a difference to any investments in S. America? Do you think they would go out of their way to somehow antagonise people in S. America?
    By the way, where did you get the idea that their investment is massive? I know all the big Spanish companies have a presence there, the Catalans certainly have large investments in Morocco and China, but this is the first time I have heard of "massive" Catalan investment in S. America.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13 PFI


    I love Barcelona, my close friends live there, they're pro-independence, and I do support Catalonian independence in principle. However I'm not sure about hearts & minds of leading Catalonian politicians, some of them might look for additional regional preferences only.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13 PFI


    SeanW wrote: »
    There was also another historical superstate called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, another attempt at getting rid of the national borders ye dislike so much. How did that work out for the people of the USSR? And what did the people of the USSR do when they were able to overthrow it?

    You're incorrect. USSR was mostly created within the boundaries of former Russian Empire.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    PFI wrote: »
    You're incorrect. USSR was mostly created within the boundaries of former Russian Empire.
    True, but many of the non-Russian SFSRs had been independent nation states prior to their re-invasion by Red Army forces.

    The Baltic States in particular suffered heavily after they were annexed by the Soviet Union as the Soviet government agreed with oscarBravo and The Broswer that nationalism was a bad thing, so they deported large numbers of Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians to Siberian gulags in an attempt to destroy those nationalities. They also committed a genocide (Holodomor) against ethnic Ukranians who didn't really want to do Soviet communism all that much.

    The British Empire had similar views of Ireland (sending large numbers of "Planters" in to erase Irish nationality) and China is currently doing the same thing in Tibet and East Turkicstan (sp) which they call Xinjiang.

    Theres more national borders gone :rolleyes: Yahoo!!

    So you will have to forgive me if I disagree - passionately and in the strongest possible terms - with those who say "Nationalism is bad" or "I don't support adding more national borders" (e.g. Catalonia, former Soviet republics, South Sudan, Tibet etc.)"


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SeanW wrote: »
    The Baltic States in particular suffered heavily after they were annexed by the Soviet Union as the Soviet government agreed with oscarBravo and The Broswer that nationalism was a bad thing, so they deported large numbers of Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians to Siberian gulags in an attempt to destroy those nationalities. They also committed a genocide (Holodomor) against ethnic Ukranians who didn't really want to do Soviet communism all that much.

    The British Empire had similar views of Ireland (sending large numbers of "Planters" in to erase Irish nationality) and China is currently doing the same thing in Tibet and East Turkicstan (sp) which they call Xinjiang.

    Theres more national borders gone :rolleyes: Yahoo!!

    So you will have to forgive me if I disagree - passionately and in the strongest possible terms - with those who say "Nationalism is bad" or "I don't support adding more national borders" (e.g. Catalonia, former Soviet republics, South Sudan, Tibet etc.)"
    Two problems with that admirably passionate argument: one is that it is predicated on the assumption that British and Soviet colonialism were in no way driven by nationalistic sentiment. I don't think that stands up to the most fleeting of scrutiny. Far from being an argument in favour of nationalism, it's a clear indication of how destructive nationalism can be when taken to its logical extreme.

    The other problem is that in its desperate haste to caricature my opinion as being borderline genocidal, it is careful to avoid any possibility of trying to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not a believer in focusing on the traits that separate us from other people; I think there's a lot more to be gained by focusing on the things we have in common. I believe that if we took a fraction of the energy we expend on demanding that people who speak a different language or eat different foods be precluded from having any input into our lives, and put it towards solving the challenges that face us as a species, we'd all be better off.

    But I accept that it's easier to compare me to Stalin or Mao or Cromwell than to acknowledge that I just have a different perspective on the issue, and that that perspective could conceivably have some validity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    But I accept that it's easier to compare me to Stalin or Mao or Cromwell than to acknowledge that I just have a different perspective on the issue, and that that perspective could conceivably have some validity.
    My apologies if I painted you in an unduly harsh light. I understood that you were in support of The Browsers argument:
    I'm not symapthetic to nationalism of any hue. I knew an ardent Catalan nationalist once and a good impression was not made. In general, I support the dissolution of borders, not the creation of new ones. Sorry!
    He basically said "F**k the Catalan people, I don't care if they want independence, I support the dissolution of national borders, not the creation of new ones."

    I assume that to mean that he also opposed the independence of the Baltic and other States from the Soviet Union (lots of new national borders there) the dissolution of Yuogoslavia (an artificial state if ever there was one), South Sudan from Sudan (more new national borders) indeed many other states in the past that have gained independence from a larger power including our own.

    That is what I have such a serious problem with.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I support the right of anyone to seek freedom from oppression. I have less sympathy with the "we speak a subtly different dialect from the people 50km away, therefore we have a god-given right to our own country" attitude, particularly when it's accompanied by violence, which it so often is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭The Browser


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I support the right of anyone to seek freedom from oppression. I have less sympathy with the "we speak a subtly different dialect from the people 50km away, therefore we have a god-given right to our own country" attitude, particularly when it's accompanied by violence, which it so often is.

    This.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,820 ✭✭✭donaghs


    I'm not symapthetic to nationalism of any hue. I knew an ardent Catalan nationalist once and a good impression was not made. In general, I support the dissolution of borders, not the creation of new ones. Sorry!

    In my opinion the increasing integration into an EU superstate, and the dissolution of the borders of the older nation state will actually lead to an increase in smaller breakway and separatist movements, tribalism basically.
    e.g. if Italy becomes more meaningless, it will only add the the Northern separatists appeal. same with Catalonia, Basques, and on and on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Two problems with that admirably passionate argument: one is that it is predicated on the assumption that British and Soviet colonialism were in no way driven by nationalistic sentiment. I don't think that stands up to the most fleeting of scrutiny. Far from being an argument in favour of nationalism, it's a clear indication of how destructive nationalism can be when taken to its logical extreme.

    The other problem is that in its desperate haste to caricature my opinion as being borderline genocidal, it is careful to avoid any possibility of trying to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not a believer in focusing on the traits that separate us from other people; I think there's a lot more to be gained by focusing on the things we have in common. I believe that if we took a fraction of the energy we expend on demanding that people who speak a different language or eat different foods be precluded from having any input into our lives, and put it towards solving the challenges that face us as a species, we'd all be better off.

    But I accept that it's easier to compare me to Stalin or Mao or Cromwell than to acknowledge that I just have a different perspective on the issue, and that that perspective could conceivably have some validity.
    When imperialists want to do down or dismiss the complaints of a subject people, they tend to complain about them being "nationalists", and tell the world that "nationalism" is a dreadful, dreadful thing.
    However, in my opinion, the problem is not "nationalism" so much as imperialism, but is very rare for the imperialist group to admit that what they are doing is imperialism. They tend to justify their actions by calling it "bringing civilisation to savages".
    Just remember, whenever and wherever you find people claiming that they are a civilising influence, you will find imperialism at work, and violence will not be far behind. In fact they love it when a subject people reacts violently to their "civilisation" because it allows them to feel superior, and use superior violence to put them down.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    deirdremf wrote: »
    When imperialists want to do down or dismiss the complaints of a subject people, they tend to complain about them being "nationalists", and tell the world that "nationalism" is a dreadful, dreadful thing.
    However, in my opinion, the problem is not "nationalism" so much as imperialism, but is very rare for the imperialist group to admit that what they are doing is imperialism. They tend to justify their actions by calling it "bringing civilisation to savages".
    Just remember, whenever and wherever you find people claiming that they are a civilising influence, you will find imperialism at work, and violence will not be far behind. In fact they love it when a subject people reacts violently to their "civilisation" because it allows them to feel superior, and use superior violence to put them down.
    I'm at a bit of a loss as to what that has to do with my post.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭eire4


    Three quarters of Catalans want independence vote, survey reveals






    Three out of every four Catalans are in favor of holding a poll to decide on independence for Spain’s richest region, according to a survey published Wednesday by the Catalan government’s Center for Opinion Studies.
    The news comes as Education Minister José Ignacio Wert stirred the nationalist nest by saying the central government wants to “Hispanicize Catalan students” with the end of making them “feel as proud as being Spaniards as Catalans.”
    Pro-independence sentiment has risen in Catalonia in recent months on the back of the economic crisis. According to the survey, 74.1 percent of Catalans want a referendum on independence. Nearly all voters for the region’s main pro-independence parties are in favor — including 83.4 percent of supporters of regional premier Artur Mas’s CiU nationalist bloc, 92 percent of ERC Catalan Republican Left voters and 96.1 percent of leftist-green ICV voters — the survey revealed.
    Almost 60 percent of Catalan Socialist Party supporters are also in favor of the vote.
    The Catalan parliament last month passed a resolution in favor of holding a vote on independence in its next legislature. It has brought forward regional elections to November 25 after Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy refused to negotiate a fiscal pact to help the heavily indebted region.
    The central government has said it will use all mechanisms in its power to prevent a referendum on independence from taking place.
    Also inflaming pro-independence passions in recent months have been proposed education reforms that will reduce regional governments’ influence over what is taught in Spain’s classrooms.
    Education minister Wert’s comments to Congress on Wednesday “confirm there is an offensive to change the state model,” said Catalan education chief Irene Rigau, who also denied his suggestion that the region’s schools indoctrinated students in Catalan nationalism.
    “We like it that Catalan students know the histories of Catalonia, Spain and the world. They [the central government] only want them to know the history of Spain,” she said.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I support the right of anyone to seek freedom from oppression. I have less sympathy with the "we speak a subtly different dialect from the people 50km away, therefore we have a god-given right to our own country" attitude, particularly when it's accompanied by violence, which it so often is.
    This.
    Ok. So why shouldn't the Catalan people have their own country if they want it?

    If you limit the rationale for having ones own country to the very narrow rationale of "freedom from oppression" then there's no reason for Ireland to be independent, since Irish people are no longer oppressed in the UK. The Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) should all become one big country since there's no indication any one of them would want to oppress any of the others.

    Saying "I want less national borders" could go in any direction.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SeanW wrote: »
    Ok. So why shouldn't the Catalan people have their own country if they want it?
    Why shouldn't Donegal people have their own country if they want it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18 BamBam92


    I don't know a lot about Spain economically but I thought Catalonia was the region with the most money, like less debt and unemployment and all that.. I thought Spain couldn't afford for them to get independence?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    BamBam92 wrote: »
    I don't know a lot about Spain economically but I thought Catalonia was the region with the most money, like less debt and unemployment and all that.. I thought Spain couldn't afford for them to get independence?
    Pretty much. Which is among the reasons I dislike this sort of nationalist sentiment: it's somewhat analagous to being in a lifeboat which is in danger of being swamped, so the richer people decide that the noble thing to do is to save themselves by throwing the poorer people over the side.

    The increase in sentiment for an independent Catalonia coincides with economic downturn. Catalans realise that, as the richer region of Spain, they could insulate themselves to some extent from the effects of recession by throwing Spain over the side.

    Which boils down to a belief that Catalans are inherently better people than Spaniards, and as such deserve to be better off in difficult times. This is why I have trouble finding much to admire in nationalistic sentiment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    BamBam92 wrote: »
    I don't know a lot about Spain economically but I thought Catalonia was the region with the most money, like less debt and unemployment and all that.. I thought Spain couldn't afford for them to get independence?

    Catalonia and the Basque Country have traditionally been quite wealthy, but much of that wealth was built due to the fact that the Spanish state in the 19th and early 20th century engaged in protectionist practices that hugely benefitted the Catalan textile industry and the Basque mining and steel industries. These regions also benefited economically from the huge pool of cheap labor in Spain, particularly from Andalusia.

    As for debt, the Catalan government amassed HUGE debt for the region over the last decade, and they needed the Spanish government to help bail them out. Unlike the Basques, the Catalans do not have total control over their tax rates and collection, but they do control the education and health systems, and the latter in particular is extraordinarily expensive. So part of the reason why the CiU did worse than expected was because because they are the ones who have to impose budget cuts.

    One could argue that perhaps the Catalan finances would not be in such bad shape if not for their financial transfers to Madrid. But I also understand the resentment in the rest of Spain due to the sense that the Catalans don't mind being a part of the Spanish state in good times, but when things get rough, they are ready to jump ****.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Why shouldn't Donegal people have their own country if they want it?
    If, for some bizarre reason they wanted it, why not?

    Should the Scottish secede from the UK if they vote for it?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SeanW wrote: »
    If, for some bizarre reason they wanted it, why not?
    If Letterkenny wanted to secede from Donegal, should they get their own country? What if the Thornberry housing estate wanted to secede from the Republic of Letterkenny? What if the family in number 12 didn't feel they had anything in common with the political elites of the Thornberry government?
    Should the Scottish secede from the UK if they vote for it?
    If they can come to an amicable arrangement with the rest of the UK, sure. I hope I haven't given the impression that I think any group of people should be prevented from forming a country, particularly if to do so is in the best interests of everyone concerned.

    What I have a problem with is the idea that it's not merely acceptable, but actually laudable, for a group of people to decide that they are better than other people, and that as a result of their intrinsic national superiority they have a god-given right to cordon off their resources from the foreign untermenschen who would otherwise have their grubby paws all over it.

    I think nationalism is like religion: fundamentally irrational. If there are rational reasons to do something, fair enough: do it for those reasons, as long as you're not harming others by doing so. But don't do something for irrational reasons and then claim that there's something inherently right about doing so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,820 ✭✭✭donaghs


    So what should replace Nationalism? Why bother having an EU then? :confused:


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    donaghs wrote: »
    So what should replace Nationalism?
    Why does it need to be replaced?
    Why bother having an EU then? :confused:
    I don't understand the question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If Letterkenny wanted to secede from Donegal, should they get their own country? What if the Thornberry housing estate wanted to secede from the Republic of Letterkenny? What if the family in number 12 didn't feel they had anything in common with the political elites of the Thornberry government?
    Ah yes, the old Reductio Ad Absurdum, or "Reduction to the absurd" argument.
    I hope I haven't given the impression that I think any group of people should be prevented from forming a country, particularly if to do so is in the best interests of everyone concerned.
    You and The Browser made it crystal clear that you want the removal of national borders in general, not the creation of new ones. TB was most explicit on this point.

    It has been done in the past of course, just usually with disasterous results for everyone involved. Hence, my lack of sympathy for what appears to be your shared position.
    What I have a problem with is the idea that it's not merely acceptable, but actually laudable, for a group of people to decide that they are better than other people,
    Is that happening in Catalonia though? Are the people there who want independence just saying "we're better than the Spanish?" or are you simply casting aspersions(sp) on them? I suspect it is the latter.
    and that as a result of their intrinsic national superiority they have a god-given right to cordon off their resources from the foreign untermenschen!!!!!!!! who would otherwise have their grubby paws all over it.
    Great, now you've just invoked Reductio ad Nazium. a.k.a. Godwins Law.

    <mod snip: this isn't AH.>
    I think nationalism is like religion: fundamentally irrational. If there are rational reasons to do something, fair enough: do it for those reasons, as long as you're not harming others by doing so. But don't do something for irrational reasons and then claim that there's something inherently right about doing so.
    And those who sought to erase nationalism under new regimes were by far more irrational, and as often as not, extremely cruel and brutal. Yougoslavia, much like the current EU for that matter, was a misguided effort to bring people together, only it had the opposite effect.

    The Catalan people want to have their country, Catalonia, much like the Americans wanted to build the United States in 1776, we Irish wanted Ireland, etc. etc. etc. They seek this because they consider Catalonian to be a unique identity. To my mind there is no other reason needed.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SeanW wrote: »
    Ah yes, the old Reductio Ad Absurdum, or "Reduction to the absurd" argument.
    Yes, which you haven't countered, merely identified. Your argument was that if any given group of people wants to call itself a nation and demand a country, that they should automatically qualify for one. I'm questioning that view by pointing out how quickly it breaks down under rational analysis.
    You and The Browser made it crystal clear that you want the removal of national borders in general, not the creation of new ones. TB was most explicit on this point.
    I most certainly haven't called for the removal of national borders. I aspire to a time when people don't obsess over ways to differentiate themselves from other people in order to discriminate against them; I haven't suggested that anyone should be forced into such a situation.
    Is that happening in Catalonia though? Are the people there who want independence just saying "we're better than the Spanish?" or are you simply casting aspersions(sp) on them? I suspect it is the latter.
    Perhaps you have a more compelling explanation for the increase in separatist sentiment in the richer region of Spain at a time of economic difficulty.

    The fact is that nationalist sentiment is inextricably linked with the implied assumption that people of one's own nationality are more deserving than those of others. I caught a few minutes of last week's Frontline program, where a member of the audience made the claim that all foreign aid should be completely cut off during a recession, on the grounds that "charity begins at home". That's window dressing for the sentiment that Irish people are more deserving of help than foreigners, even if the foreigners are in more desperate need of it.
    And those who sought to erase nationalism under new regimes were by far more irrational, and as often as not, extremely cruel and brutal. Yougoslavia, much like the current EU for that matter, was a misguided effort to bring people together, only it had the opposite effect.
    If your only argument in favour of nationalism is to keep dragging up examples of regimes that have attempted to destroy it by force and how nasty they were, you're missing the point in a rather spectacular fashion.
    The Catalan people want to have their country, Catalonia, much like the Americans wanted to build the United States in 1776...
    They're paying taxes without parliamentary representation?
    ...we Irish wanted Ireland...
    They've suffered centuries of oppressive rule by a neighbouring nation that considers them barely human?
    They seek this because they consider Catalonian to be a unique identity. To my mind there is no other reason needed.
    That's because you see nationalism as an end in itself, which is begging the question.

    I don't get the fascination with nationalism. As I've pointed out, and as you've singularly failed to engage with in any meaningful way, it's basically irrational. I accept that people do all sorts of things with all sorts of irrational motivations, but I don't feel the need to applaud those behaviours.

    If Catalonia becomes its own country, it will be at Spain's expense. You have absolutely no problem with the idea that one group of people will be left worse off as a result of another country's nationalism, because nationalism. Sorry, but I don't buy it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yes, which you haven't countered, merely identified. Your argument was that if any given group of people wants to call itself a nation and demand a country, that they should automatically qualify for one. I'm questioning that view by pointing out how quickly it breaks down under rational analysis.
    Any viewpoint can be countered in a "Reduction to the Absurd" fashion. For example, if one supports building railways, it can be reduced to the absurd by saying "how about wallpapering the country with railway tracks?"

    The idea that Donegal people might not consider themselves Irish and want to secede is somewhat bizarre. Then you go on to consider that Letterkenians might want to form their own micro-state, then a housing estate within that, then a single property with that estate.

    Even the absolutely smallest micro-states, like the Vatican City, Monaco, Liechtenstein etc have something resembling a city as part of their territory, there is simply no precedent - and there likely never will be - for a single house to become a country, let alone for this to happen on any large scale.
    I most certainly haven't called for the removal of national borders.
    The Browser did, and you thanked his post (suggesting that you agreed) as he has been thanking yours. So I assume you both agree on this topic.
    Perhaps you have a more compelling explanation for the increase in separatist sentiment in the richer region of Spain at a time of economic difficulty.
    You have it right there "increase." i.e. it has always been there. Always an undertone in Catalan society.

    Tell me why Dublin never wanted to secede from Ireland at a time when it was carrying all of Ireland (it still is to large extent, Dublin and the GDA are net tax payers, the regions are net tax recipients). The Western lobby held such power in the past that it was able to make Dublin pay for an airport in Shannon that was top-class while Dublin Airport was intentionally built to a lower specification to hamstring it in "competetion" with Shannon for large cargo planes etc. In fact it used to be that if you lived in Dublin, you had to travel over land to Shannon to get a flight to the U.S. or fly to Heathrow, because the Irish government, full of powerful Western whingers, banned airlines from serving transatlantic flights out of Dublin altogether.

    Why then, despite all this, has there never been "nationalist" sentiment in Dublin? Why have the Dubs never said "let's keep our wealth out of the hands of the grubby Western ubermenschen?"
    "... That's window dressing for the sentiment that Irish people are more deserving of help than foreigners, even if the foreigners are in more desperate need of it."
    Yes, like the Prime Minister of Uganda ...
    If your only argument in favour of nationalism is to keep dragging up examples of regimes that have attempted to destroy it by force and how nasty they were, you're missing the point in a rather spectacular fashion.
    And if only you hadn't cast the people of Catalonia as builders of the Fourth Reich ...
    They've suffered centuries of oppressive rule by a neighbouring nation that considers them barely human?
    But the British no longer see us as "barely human" so why should we not rejoin the UK?
    If Catalonia becomes its own country, it will be at Spain's expense
    that would be unfortunate, but remember that Catalonia would have to take some of Spain's debt with it.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SeanW wrote: »
    Any viewpoint can be countered in a "Reduction to the Absurd" fashion. For example, if one supports building railways, it can be reduced to the absurd by saying "how about wallpapering the country with railway tracks?"
    Yes, that would be a suitable counter to a blanket support for the building of railways. In turn, it should prompt a discussion on when it is in the best interests of all the stakeholders concerned that a given, specific railway should be built - which would be a much more intelligent discussion than one predicated on the view that if someone wants a railway, they should get one.
    The idea that Donegal people might not consider themselves Irish and want to secede is somewhat bizarre. Then you go on to consider that Letterkenians might want to form their own micro-state, then a housing estate within that, then a single property with that estate.

    Even the absolutely smallest micro-states, like the Vatican City, Monaco, Liechtenstein etc have something resembling a city as part of their territory, there is simply no precedent - and there likely never will be - for a single house to become a country, let alone for this to happen on any large scale.
    OK, we're getting somewhere - you've drawn the line at the city-state as the smallest entity you consider deserving of independent nationhood. Unfortunately, in the same post you've rejected the idea that a county deserves independence; a logical inconsistency that I can only conclude is rooted in your pre-conceived ideas of nationality (Donegal is part of Ireland; you're a believer in Irish nationalism; therefore Donegal people can only be considered Irish and any idea to the contrary won't be entertained).
    The Browser did, and you thanked his post (suggesting that you agreed) as he has been thanking yours. So I assume you both agree on this topic.
    Perhaps if you did less assuming and more discussing, we'd get further.

    I don't support the forcible dissolution of borders. I would like to see a world without borders, because it would mean that we have grown up as a species. I think we're a very, very long way from that level of enlightenment, but I live in hope.
    You have it right there "increase." i.e. it has always been there. Always an undertone in Catalan society.
    Sure. I'm not denying the existence of nationalism; just disagreeing with it as a sentiment, and pointing out that an increase in such sentiment in times of economic difficulty tends to suggest that it's not an attractive sentiment in the first place.
    Tell me why Dublin never wanted to secede from Ireland...
    Because there isn't that distinct a cultural identity in Dublin; Dubliners tend to self-identify as Irish. To me, this is a good thing, to the extent that it's better than self-identifying as Dubliners to the extent of wanting to hoard resources away from other Irish people.

    Now, take that sentiment further. Imagine a future time when Dubliners self-identify as Europeans, and don't feel a need to demand isolation from people in other parts of Europe. Take it further and imagine a time when everyone in the world self-identifies as human beings, and the notion of hoarding resources for one nationality at the expense of others is looked back on with the same revulsion we feel for slavery today.

    If you can imagine that, you'll start to understand where I'm coming from. If you can't imagine that, it's almost certainly because you don't want to.
    Yes, like the Prime Minister of Uganda ...
    Oh look, you demolished my entire argument with one smart-ass quip. Just think: if the prime minister of Uganda was a less corrupt person, you might have had to actually think about my arguments instead of dismissing them with some hand-waving. I guess that was a lucky escape.
    And if only you hadn't cast the people of Catalonia as builders of the Fourth Reich ...
    I didn't. I made the mistake of using a phrase that allowed you another excuse not to bother trying to understand my argument.

    I could rephrase it, but I doubt you'll let it go, because - again - you don't want to accept the idea that I could have a point.
    But the British no longer see us as "barely human" so why should we not rejoin the UK?
    Why should we? I don't want to be a part of the UK.

    My argument for a world without borders isn't an argument for bigger countries, or fewer countries. It's an argument for not having countries.
    that would be unfortunate, but remember that Catalonia would have to take some of Spain's debt with it.
    But you do accept that Spain would, on balance, be worse off without Catalonia? And you think it's OK for the Catalonians to do something that makes them better off and other people worse off, because nationalism?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    OK, we're getting somewhere - you've drawn the line at the city-state as the smallest entity you consider deserving of independent nationhood.
    True. The idea of individual houses setting up their own micro-states is so bonkers it frankly isn't worth debating.
    Unfortunately, in the same post you've rejected the idea that a county deserves independence
    False. You brought up Donegal, I merely think the idea somewhat bizarre because the probability of separatism in Donegal is very, very remote. Just as it is in Dublin, which I also pointed out.

    As I said previously if, for some bizarre reason that were to change and the people of Donegal were to want to build their own country, I'd be ... interested.
    Perhaps if you did less assuming and more discussing, we'd get further.
    I assumed based on the evidence - all the mutual thanking that was going on between you two.
    I would like to see a world without borders, because it would mean that we have grown up as a species.
    So did the Communists ... I once read that true communism required the whole world to be as one, i.e. that the Soviet Union only became corrupted and collapsed because it had to have external borders and a military. Hence I'm a little skeptical of people claiming nationalism is bad and we should all want to be one people.
    Sure. I'm not denying the existence of nationalism; just disagreeing with it as a sentiment,
    I'm just pointing out that Catalan nationalism has always been there - unlike other cases where one region carries another, such as Dublin and the West, where regional nationalism has never been an issue.

    The Catalans didn't just suddenly decide "we don't need to send all this money to Madrid, we are Catalans" rather that feeling of identity and nationality has always been there.

    I contend that if the Catalan people are denied a referendum on independence, then Spain will be every bit as much an artificial state as the Soviet Union or Yugoslavia.
    Now, take that sentiment further. Imagine a future time when Dubliners self-identify as Europeans, and don't feel a need to demand isolation from people in other parts of Europe. Take it further and imagine a time when everyone in the world self-identifies as human beings, and the notion of hoarding resources for one nationality at the expense of others
    At a time when we're savaging the most vulnerable in our own country (carers of those with severe disabilities) it makes sense to question whether we can afford so much foreign aid, especially when a lot of it goes into the Swiss bank accounts of corrupt government officials.

    To take your idea of "hoading resources for one nationality at the expense of others" to its limit, how far should we go in handing money over to Africa? If "hoarding resources for our nationality" is a bad thing, shouldn't we give dramatic volumes of our money to the 3rd world, regardless of what happens at home? Where does it end?
    I didn't. I made the mistake of using a phrase that allowed you another excuse not to bother trying to understand my argument.
    I suspect its more telling of your mindset and the contempt in which you hold the Catalan people - "untermensch" has very specific connotations with racial hatred and was a central plank of the theory of the leaders of Nazi Germany.
    I don't want to be a part of the UK.
    Why not? If and if you don't want to be part of the UK, why should the people of Catalonia be part of Spain?
    My argument for a world without borders isn't an argument for bigger countries, or fewer countries.
    Yet in the case of Catalonia and Spain, it clearly is.
    It's an argument for not having countries.
    That's as bizarre as having every house being a country. The world has too many different cultures, different languages, different world views to be borderless any time in the next millenium. In the meantime, people who share a common identity should IMHO have the right to self-determination.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SeanW wrote: »
    So did the Communists ... I once read that true communism required the whole world to be as one, i.e. that the Soviet Union only became corrupted and collapsed because it had to have external borders and a military. Hence I'm a little skeptical of people claiming nationalism is bad and we should all want to be one people.
    You're just determined not to accept the possibility that there's any reason to be suspicious of nationalism other than imperialism or colonialism, aren't you?
    I contend that if the Catalan people are denied a referendum on independence, then Spain will be every bit as much an artificial state as the Soviet Union or Yugoslavia.
    And I contend that every state is artificial. The idea that the existence of any state is the natural order of things is, frankly, ridiculous.
    At a time when we're savaging the most vulnerable in our own country (carers of those with severe disabilities) it makes sense to question whether we can afford so much foreign aid, especially when a lot of it goes into the Swiss bank accounts of corrupt government officials.
    It always makes sense to question whether we can afford "foreign" aid, as long as you're working from the premise that members of your own tribe are more deserving than members of another tribe. I'm arguing for a world in which the idea of one tribe being more deserving than another is an obsolete and slightly embarrassing memory.
    To take your idea of "hoading resources for one nationality at the expense of others" to its limit, how far should we go in handing money over to Africa? If "hoarding resources for our nationality" is a bad thing, shouldn't we give dramatic volumes of our money to the 3rd world, regardless of what happens at home? Where does it end?
    Let's turn that around. If hoarding resources for one's own nationality is a good thing, shouldn't the most powerful nation-states take whatever they want by force from the less deserving foreigners?

    Now, that's going to look like a pretty horribly bad deal if you happen to be on the receiving end of such aggression, but tough: nationalism is inherently subjective. It only works if you refuse to look at it completely objectively.
    I suspect its more telling of your mindset and the contempt in which you hold the Catalan people - "untermensch" has very specific connotations with racial hatred and was a central plank of the theory of the leaders of Nazi Germany.
    Yes, that's right. You caught me out. I'm not in fact arguing for a world in which nobody considers themselves more deserving than anyone else just because of an accident of birth; I'm actually a closet Nazi who hates Catalans. Nobody else; just Catalans. Because that makes perfect sense.

    It's kind of ironic that you can keep Godwinning me over and over and over again without stopping to notice that you keep constantly comparing my perspective to Stalinism and British imperialism, despite the minor detail that they have nothing whatsoever in common beyond the fact that it suits your argument to make the comparison.
    The world has too many different cultures, different languages, different world views to be borderless any time in the next millenium.
    I have different world views from my girlfriend. That doesn't require a border between us. She speaks a different language from me (although she also speaks mine fluently, and I hers badly). That doesn't require a border between us. We come from very different cultures. We don't need a border.

    The idea that a border is an automatic requirement between groups of people who have different ideas about the world is the one that I've spent this entire thread rejecting. I detest the idea that it's important to wall yourself off from other groups of people because you perceive them as being different in some way. I think the idea of defining yourself by a group identity whose chief characteristics are in turn defined by how they differ from those of other groups is primitive, counter-productive, harmful and ultimately doomed.
    In the meantime, people who share a common identity should IMHO have the right to self-determination.
    The phrase "common identity" is pretty much the perfect oxymoron.

    The difference between nationalists and me is that I'm trying to broaden my horizons in determining with whom I share characteristics. I don't understand why I should feel an affinity with Irish people at the expense of Korean or Brazilian or American people. We're all people. What makes Irish people so special?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Let's turn that around. If hoarding resources for one's own nationality is a good thing, shouldn't the most powerful nation-states take whatever they want by force from the less deserving foreigners?
    No - because that would be a violation of the rights of the "foreigners" in the same way that robbing someones' wallet on the street is totally wrong.

    "Hoarding" resources for one's own nationality is not wrong where the resources BELONG to that nationality. If you want, for example, to build the DART Underground, the cost will have to come from Irish taxpayers. The same is true of Carers Allowance paid to those caring for the severely disabled. It comes from other Irish people (or debt underwritten by the government of the Irish people). So it makes sense that the resources of the Irish people should be used for the benefit of the Irish people, especially for things like capital infrastructural investment that will make Irish people even more productive, i.e. even more able to spend money potentially overseas.

    If we can afford to spend money overseas, great, but people are right to question if we can do that now. And we have a collective right to do so, because its our money, collected by the Irish government from the Irish people.
    Now, that's going to look like a pretty horribly bad deal if you happen to be on the receiving end of such aggression, but tough: nationalism is inherently subjective. It only works if you refuse to look at it completely objectively.
    It works if you assume that an individual has property rights and so does a soverign over its territory and any assets held on behalf of its people. I.E. we can't go to another country and take their resources, because they don't belong to us and we have no right to take them. We only have the right to "hoard" those resources that belong to us: that applies both to the individual and to the soverign and is a consistent, logical standard.
    Yes, that's right. You caught me out. I'm not in fact arguing for a world in which nobody considers themselves more deserving than anyone else just because of an accident of birth; I'm actually a closet Nazi who hates Catalans. Nobody else; just Catalans. Because that makes perfect sense.
    I did not say that you are a Nazi, but rather than you are casting the Catalan people as Nazis. In your mind, they're building the Fourth Reich, designating the Spanish people as "untermenschen" (racially inferior) and greedily grasping "mein mein mein" as though it was the main reason for them wanting independence.

    It fails Godwins Law and it doesn't explain why Dublin supports the Regions of Ireland, despite clear evidence that the GDA would be far better off on its own, not chained to regional lobbies that have - at times - acted like a drowning victim (i.e. trying to drown their rescuer).
    The phrase "common identity" is pretty much the perfect oxymoron.
    Yet it is the basis for just about culture on Earth.


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I'm giving up. Your arguments in favour of nationalism are grounded entirely in assumptions that only make sense with nationalism as a starting point, which - as I've already pointed out - is begging the question. I don't know whether you are genuinely incapable of grasping my point or just completely unwilling, but I know I'm unwilling to bang my head off the wall any longer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm giving up. Your arguments in favour of nationalism are grounded entirely in assumptions that only make sense with nationalism as a starting point, which - as I've already pointed out - is begging the question. I don't know whether you are genuinely incapable of grasping my point or just completely unwilling, but I know I'm unwilling to bang my head off the wall any longer.
    Ok, if you want a rational justification for nationalism, here goes:

    Let us assume, for a moment, that you are not a Stalinist, i.e. that you believe that a person has a right to the fruits of their labour.

    A person must, therefore spend those labours on things he/she requires. Food, shelter etc, as well as discretionary spending, i.e. a few pints with his mates.

    There are some things that one cannot procure on their own - they must be collective efforts. For example, the construction and maintenance of roads and railways, the running of a system of justice, education etc.

    For that you must pay taxes, those taxes go into a common pool to pay for larger undertakings of this kind. It makes sense that these should be done locally, as much as possible, for two reasons:
    1. If all resources were to go on a strictly as-needed basis worldwide, all our money would go to feed starving Africans or something, the things that we currently pay for so as to have a share of (roads, railways, police and fire) would all be funded to pathetic or non-existant levels) despite on average paying for dramatically more local services.

      The entire basis for having a government is that you contribute to things you need a share of but cannot fund on your own.

      If you don't have countries and everything goes into one big pot, you will find that "we" would be paying lots of money and recieving very little. I.E. the entire basis for paying a government taxes would cease to exist.
    2. Different areas have different problems, requiring different solutions and different resource allocations. I would imagine that the main problem in, for example, Africa is the amount of people who don't have enough to eat. Our problems are minor by comparison, but in different areas.

      Even where the problem is the same - for example, the government manages the electricity supply - the solutions must differ. In a cold climate, electricity needs will follow one pattern, in a warm climate, they will follow another.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SeanW wrote: »
    ...all our money would go to feed starving Africans or something...
    And that wouldn't do at all, at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    And that wouldn't do at all, at all.
    I mean all of it, or most of it. Most importantly, the things we need to be a productive economy - roads, railways, education etc. would effectively cease to exist.

    In the medium to long term, that would result in "our" first world economies ceasing to be first world economies as the foundation would have been cannibalised.

    And you'd still have millions of starving Africans, probably more.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭SeanW


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    And that wouldn't do at all, at all.
    Our nation is no more obliged to spend all our peoples money in Africa, than you personally are obliged to hand all your wages/salary to homeless people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 Arasnatra


    Hi There,

    Last year we see the largest demonstration and this year Hundreds of thousands of Catalans will link hands on Today to form a human chain stretching from the French border to the southern tip of the region, in the latest attempt to rally support for a historic break with Spain and the creation of an independent Catalan state.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/aba75112-1a0e-11e3-93e8-00144feab7de.html#axzz2eZsKyNz9
    http://http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/catalans-unite-for-human-chain-as-part-of-bid-to-separate-from-spain-1.1521308
    http://http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/09/11/323235/spain-rally-to-urge-catalonia-selfrule/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭Barna77


    Yes, why not have a referendum, with all its consequences.
    If it says Yes, off you go. Remember, the EU has said no to Cataluña as a new member. So taxes, taxes and taxes on imports and exports.
    If it says No, you stay and never to hear about it again.

    I hear, the human chain "invaded" Castellón?

    Also, I thinks it's sickening that the Generalitat (Catalonian regional government) is cutting back on so many social services but is quite happy to spend millions to celebrate the 300 anniversary of 1714.


    Bored to death of y'all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    so many new states in europe,since the cold war ukraine and belarus have joined in and a few others, czechoslovakia was divided,yugoslavia was divied after a three sided war.is this all a good thing should some/all of these states remained as they were?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 Arasnatra


    I don't think you can compare them with Catalonia.


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