11th Sep "Catalonia National Day"

Arasnatra

Today is the National Day in Catalonia. Today we commemorates the defeat of the Catalan troops during the War of the Spanish Succession. The Catalan troops that supported the Habsburg dynasty were defeated at the Siege of Barcelona by the troops of Bourbon Philip V of Spain on 11 September 1714 after 14 months of siege. The holiday was officially reinstated in 1980 by the autonomous governing body of Catalonia, the Generalitat de Catalunya, upon its restoration after the end of the Franco dictatorship.
Independentist organizations and political parties traditionally lay floral offerings at the monuments of the leaders of the defence of the city Rafael Casanova and General Moragues for their fight against the king Philip V of Spain. Typically, Catalan nationalists organize demonstrations and meet at the Fossar de les Moreres of Barcelona, where they pay homage to the defenders of city who died during the siege and were buried there. Throughout the day, there are independentist demonstrations and cultural events in most of Catalan villages and more than 50% citizens wave senyeres and estelades.


Today in Barcelona they expecting the biggest demonstration of all times for the Independents Of Catalonia.


What do you think? when more of the half of the population of a region want to be independent of Spain? and the population are very angry with the way spain is been treated the Catalans for the past years.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/catalan-independence-rally-barcelona
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/world/europe/12iht-barcelona12.html

Arasnatra

Arasnatra wrote: »

Today is the National Day in Catalonia. Today we commemorates the defeat of the Catalan troops during the War of the Spanish Succession. The Catalan troops that supported the Habsburg dynasty were defeated at the Siege of Barcelona by the troops of Bourbon Philip V of Spain on 11 September 1714 after 14 months of siege. The holiday was officially reinstated in 1980 by the autonomous governing body of Catalonia, the Generalitat de Catalunya, upon its restoration after the end of the Franco dictatorship.
Independentist organizations and political parties traditionally lay floral offerings at the monuments of the leaders of the defence of the city Rafael Casanova and General Moragues for their fight against the king Philip V of Spain. Typically, Catalan nationalists organize demonstrations and meet at the Fossar de les Moreres of Barcelona, where they pay homage to the defenders of city who died during the siege and were buried there. Throughout the day, there are independentist demonstrations and cultural events in most of Catalan villages and more than 50% citizens wave senyeres and estelades.


Today in Barcelona they expecting the biggest demonstration of all times for the Independents Of Catalonia.:rolleyes:


What do you think?
More of the half of the population of a region want to be independent of Spain? and the population are very angry with the way spain has been treating the Catalans for the past years.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/catalan-independence-rally-barcelona
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/world/europe/12iht-barcelona12.html

Something interesting to watch ( is not from the 11th September 2012) but explains a lot of what is happening.

Arasnatra

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/world/europe/spains-prime-minister-fails-to-reach-revenue-deal-with-catalonia.html?_r=1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/spain-sees-key-borrowing-rate-drop-strong-demand-in-bond-auction/2012/09/20/c50ac966-0305-11e2-9132-f2750cd65f97_story.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444165804578007763479220002.html?KEYWORDS=catalonia
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19662574
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9556803/Spain-risks-break-up-as-Mariano-Rajoy-stirs-Catalan-fury.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/20/spanish-pm-rejects-catalan-tax-powers
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0921/1224324232289.html
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2012/09/20/01003-20120920ARTFIG00717-rien-ne-va-plus-entre-madrid-et-barcelone.php

The Browser

I'm not symapthetic to nationalism of any hue. I knew an ardent Catalan nationalist once and a good impression was not made. In general, I support the dissolution of borders, not the creation of new ones. Sorry!

Arasnatra

You are entitled to your own opinion.

oscarBravo

Arasnatra wrote: »

You are entitled to your own opinion.

That's very generous of you.

For what it's worth, it's a view that many of us share. Nationalism and religion vie for the top spot in the list of reasons for senseless conflict, and I for one would love to see both relegated to the status of historical curiosity. I recognise that I'm in a minority, but I live in hope.

Manach

Hopefully the asperations of the Catalons can be met within the aspects of the EU, which has (IHMO) at least attempted to deal fairly with regional issues. Then again, I in contrast to oscarBravo, I'd rate most forms of Nationalism and Religion as sum contributors to the stability of a society.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

Please do not post video links without an explanation, or links-only posts.

eire4

Having over 1.5 Million show up for the day is very impressive indeed. It will be very interesting to see how the Catalan elections go on November 25 with the government calling for them 2 years in advance of when they were scheduled. The elections clearly been a form of referendum on Catalan demands for independance.

deirdremf

The Browser wrote: »

I'm not symapthetic to nationalism of any hue. I knew an ardent Catalan nationalist once and a good impression was not made. In general, I support the dissolution of borders, not the creation of new ones. Sorry!

I wonder if you have met any ardent Spanish nationalists.
If you had, you would understand why the Catalans want to secede; what is happening here is really a divorce, with one of the parties - overbearing, brash, arrogant - struggling to keep the other in line long after the relationship has had any meaning.

And i don't think it's so much that they want to create new borders, more that they want control over their own affairs, by removing what they see as a useless level of bureaucracy at the top.

DaveyCakes

deirdremf wrote: »

I wonder if you have met any ardent Spanish nationalists.
If you had, you would understand why the Catalans want to secede; what is happening here is really a divorce, with one of the parties - overbearing, brash, arrogant - struggling to keep the other in line long after the relationship has had any meaning.

And i don't think it's so much that they want to create new borders, more that they want control over their own affairs, by removing what they see as a useless level of bureaucracy at the top.

Which partner are you talking about here, because that's exactly how I would describe my (admittedly brief) experience of Barcelona and Catalonia.

passarellaie

DaveyCakes wrote: »

Which partner are you talking about here, because that's exactly how I would describe my (admittedly brief) experience of Barcelona and Catalonia.

Catalans are a very pragmatic people and I would find it extrsordinary if they vote for independence.What they stand to lose would be enormous.It may appear on the surface they have much to gain but.
For example the biggest Castillian Spanish publishing city in the World is Barcelona which plays a massive part in supplying 500 million Spanish speakers around the World with product.Hardly likely to continue if a Catalan speaking state emeges now is it?
Catalonian investment in Spanish speaking America is massive.South Americans are very well disposed to the Patria Madre which would cost the Catalans a fortune.These things will become ever more apparent as d day approaches.

SeanW

The Browser wrote: »

I'm not symapthetic to nationalism of any hue. I knew an ardent Catalan nationalist once and a good impression was not made. In general, I support the dissolution of borders, not the creation of new ones. Sorry!

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's very generous of you.

For what it's worth, it's a view that many of us share. Nationalism and religion vie for the top spot in the list of reasons for senseless conflict, and I for one would love to see both relegated to the status of historical curiosity. I recognise that I'm in a minority, but I live in hope.

I seem to recall that the abolition of national boundaries was tried in a country called Yugoslavia. Anyone care to remind us of how THAT turned out?

And yet today, we have a new superstate, the European Union, whose thirst for the destruction of national democracy and rule from Brussels has already destroyed Greece.

There was also another historical superstate called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, another attempt at getting rid of the national borders ye dislike so much. How did that work out for the people of the USSR? And what did the people of the USSR do when they were able to overthrow it?

deirdremf

DaveyCakes wrote: »

Which partner are you talking about here, because that's exactly how I would describe my (admittedly brief) experience of Barcelona and Catalonia.

Well, it might be that you had the misfortune to meet some of the very many Spanish people who live in barcelona!

passarellaie wrote: »

Catalans are a very pragmatic people and I would find it extrsordinary if they vote for independence.What they stand to lose would be enormous.It may appear on the surface they have much to gain but.
For example the biggest Castillian Spanish publishing city in the World is Barcelona which plays a massive part in supplying 500 million Spanish speakers around the World with product.Hardly likely to continue if a Catalan speaking state emeges now is it?

The Spanish-language publishing world is very, very fragmented. Books in Spanish produced in Madrid can be difficult to find in Barcelona and vice versa. It would have virtually no presence in Latin America, outside of a small number of household names like Vargas Llosa, García Márquez and Isabel Allende.

Catalonian investment in Spanish speaking America is massive.South Americans are very well disposed to the Patria Madre which would cost the Catalans a fortune.These things will become ever more apparent as d day approaches.

Why would it make a difference to any investments in S. America? Do you think they would go out of their way to somehow antagonise people in S. America?
By the way, where did you get the idea that their investment is massive? I know all the big Spanish companies have a presence there, the Catalans certainly have large investments in Morocco and China, but this is the first time I have heard of "massive" Catalan investment in S. America.

PFI

I love Barcelona, my close friends live there, they're pro-independence, and I do support Catalonian independence in principle. However I'm not sure about hearts & minds of leading Catalonian politicians, some of them might look for additional regional preferences only.

PFI

SeanW wrote: »

There was also another historical superstate called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, another attempt at getting rid of the national borders ye dislike so much. How did that work out for the people of the USSR? And what did the people of the USSR do when they were able to overthrow it?

You're incorrect. USSR was mostly created within the boundaries of former Russian Empire.

SeanW

PFI wrote: »

You're incorrect. USSR was mostly created within the boundaries of former Russian Empire.

True, but many of the non-Russian SFSRs had been independent nation states prior to their re-invasion by Red Army forces.

The Baltic States in particular suffered heavily after they were annexed by the Soviet Union as the Soviet government agreed with oscarBravo and The Broswer that nationalism was a bad thing, so they deported large numbers of Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians to Siberian gulags in an attempt to destroy those nationalities. They also committed a genocide (Holodomor) against ethnic Ukranians who didn't really want to do Soviet communism all that much.

The British Empire had similar views of Ireland (sending large numbers of "Planters" in to erase Irish nationality) and China is currently doing the same thing in Tibet and East Turkicstan (sp) which they call Xinjiang.

Theres more national borders gone :rolleyes: Yahoo!!

So you will have to forgive me if I disagree - passionately and in the strongest possible terms - with those who say "Nationalism is bad" or "I don't support adding more national borders" (e.g. Catalonia, former Soviet republics, South Sudan, Tibet etc.)"

oscarBravo

SeanW wrote: »

The Baltic States in particular suffered heavily after they were annexed by the Soviet Union as the Soviet government agreed with oscarBravo and The Broswer that nationalism was a bad thing, so they deported large numbers of Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians to Siberian gulags in an attempt to destroy those nationalities. They also committed a genocide (Holodomor) against ethnic Ukranians who didn't really want to do Soviet communism all that much.

The British Empire had similar views of Ireland (sending large numbers of "Planters" in to erase Irish nationality) and China is currently doing the same thing in Tibet and East Turkicstan (sp) which they call Xinjiang.

Theres more national borders gone :rolleyes: Yahoo!!

So you will have to forgive me if I disagree - passionately and in the strongest possible terms - with those who say "Nationalism is bad" or "I don't support adding more national borders" (e.g. Catalonia, former Soviet republics, South Sudan, Tibet etc.)"

Two problems with that admirably passionate argument: one is that it is predicated on the assumption that British and Soviet colonialism were in no way driven by nationalistic sentiment. I don't think that stands up to the most fleeting of scrutiny. Far from being an argument in favour of nationalism, it's a clear indication of how destructive nationalism can be when taken to its logical extreme.

The other problem is that in its desperate haste to caricature my opinion as being borderline genocidal, it is careful to avoid any possibility of trying to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not a believer in focusing on the traits that separate us from other people; I think there's a lot more to be gained by focusing on the things we have in common. I believe that if we took a fraction of the energy we expend on demanding that people who speak a different language or eat different foods be precluded from having any input into our lives, and put it towards solving the challenges that face us as a species, we'd all be better off.

But I accept that it's easier to compare me to Stalin or Mao or Cromwell than to acknowledge that I just have a different perspective on the issue, and that that perspective could conceivably have some validity.

SeanW

oscarBravo wrote: »

But I accept that it's easier to compare me to Stalin or Mao or Cromwell than to acknowledge that I just have a different perspective on the issue, and that that perspective could conceivably have some validity.

My apologies if I painted you in an unduly harsh light. I understood that you were in support of The Browsers argument:

The Browser wrote: »

I'm not symapthetic to nationalism of any hue. I knew an ardent Catalan nationalist once and a good impression was not made. In general, I support the dissolution of borders, not the creation of new ones. Sorry!

He basically said "F**k the Catalan people, I don't care if they want independence, I support the dissolution of national borders, not the creation of new ones."

I assume that to mean that he also opposed the independence of the Baltic and other States from the Soviet Union (lots of new national borders there) the dissolution of Yuogoslavia (an artificial state if ever there was one), South Sudan from Sudan (more new national borders) indeed many other states in the past that have gained independence from a larger power including our own.

That is what I have such a serious problem with.

oscarBravo

I support the right of anyone to seek freedom from oppression. I have less sympathy with the "we speak a subtly different dialect from the people 50km away, therefore we have a god-given right to our own country" attitude, particularly when it's accompanied by violence, which it so often is.

The Browser

oscarBravo wrote: »

I support the right of anyone to seek freedom from oppression. I have less sympathy with the "we speak a subtly different dialect from the people 50km away, therefore we have a god-given right to our own country" attitude, particularly when it's accompanied by violence, which it so often is.

This.

donaghs

The Browser wrote: »

I'm not symapthetic to nationalism of any hue. I knew an ardent Catalan nationalist once and a good impression was not made. In general, I support the dissolution of borders, not the creation of new ones. Sorry!

In my opinion the increasing integration into an EU superstate, and the dissolution of the borders of the older nation state will actually lead to an increase in smaller breakway and separatist movements, tribalism basically.
e.g. if Italy becomes more meaningless, it will only add the the Northern separatists appeal. same with Catalonia, Basques, and on and on

deirdremf

oscarBravo wrote: »

Two problems with that admirably passionate argument: one is that it is predicated on the assumption that British and Soviet colonialism were in no way driven by nationalistic sentiment. I don't think that stands up to the most fleeting of scrutiny. Far from being an argument in favour of nationalism, it's a clear indication of how destructive nationalism can be when taken to its logical extreme.

The other problem is that in its desperate haste to caricature my opinion as being borderline genocidal, it is careful to avoid any possibility of trying to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not a believer in focusing on the traits that separate us from other people; I think there's a lot more to be gained by focusing on the things we have in common. I believe that if we took a fraction of the energy we expend on demanding that people who speak a different language or eat different foods be precluded from having any input into our lives, and put it towards solving the challenges that face us as a species, we'd all be better off.

But I accept that it's easier to compare me to Stalin or Mao or Cromwell than to acknowledge that I just have a different perspective on the issue, and that that perspective could conceivably have some validity.

When imperialists want to do down or dismiss the complaints of a subject people, they tend to complain about them being "nationalists", and tell the world that "nationalism" is a dreadful, dreadful thing.
However, in my opinion, the problem is not "nationalism" so much as imperialism, but is very rare for the imperialist group to admit that what they are doing is imperialism. They tend to justify their actions by calling it "bringing civilisation to savages".
Just remember, whenever and wherever you find people claiming that they are a civilising influence, you will find imperialism at work, and violence will not be far behind. In fact they love it when a subject people reacts violently to their "civilisation" because it allows them to feel superior, and use superior violence to put them down.

oscarBravo

deirdremf wrote: »

When imperialists want to do down or dismiss the complaints of a subject people, they tend to complain about them being "nationalists", and tell the world that "nationalism" is a dreadful, dreadful thing.
However, in my opinion, the problem is not "nationalism" so much as imperialism, but is very rare for the imperialist group to admit that what they are doing is imperialism. They tend to justify their actions by calling it "bringing civilisation to savages".
Just remember, whenever and wherever you find people claiming that they are a civilising influence, you will find imperialism at work, and violence will not be far behind. In fact they love it when a subject people reacts violently to their "civilisation" because it allows them to feel superior, and use superior violence to put them down.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what that has to do with my post.

eire4

Three quarters of Catalans want independence vote, survey reveals






Three out of every four Catalans are in favor of holding a poll to decide on independence for Spain’s richest region, according to a survey published Wednesday by the Catalan government’s Center for Opinion Studies.
The news comes as Education Minister José Ignacio Wert stirred the nationalist nest by saying the central government wants to “Hispanicize Catalan students” with the end of making them “feel as proud as being Spaniards as Catalans.”
Pro-independence sentiment has risen in Catalonia in recent months on the back of the economic crisis. According to the survey, 74.1 percent of Catalans want a referendum on independence. Nearly all voters for the region’s main pro-independence parties are in favor — including 83.4 percent of supporters of regional premier Artur Mas’s CiU nationalist bloc, 92 percent of ERC Catalan Republican Left voters and 96.1 percent of leftist-green ICV voters — the survey revealed.
Almost 60 percent of Catalan Socialist Party supporters are also in favor of the vote.
The Catalan parliament last month passed a resolution in favor of holding a vote on independence in its next legislature. It has brought forward regional elections to November 25 after Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy refused to negotiate a fiscal pact to help the heavily indebted region.
The central government has said it will use all mechanisms in its power to prevent a referendum on independence from taking place.
Also inflaming pro-independence passions in recent months have been proposed education reforms that will reduce regional governments’ influence over what is taught in Spain’s classrooms.
Education minister Wert’s comments to Congress on Wednesday “confirm there is an offensive to change the state model,” said Catalan education chief Irene Rigau, who also denied his suggestion that the region’s schools indoctrinated students in Catalan nationalism.
“We like it that Catalan students know the histories of Catalonia, Spain and the world. They [the central government] only want them to know the history of Spain,” she said.

SeanW

oscarBravo wrote: »

I support the right of anyone to seek freedom from oppression. I have less sympathy with the "we speak a subtly different dialect from the people 50km away, therefore we have a god-given right to our own country" attitude, particularly when it's accompanied by violence, which it so often is.

The Browser wrote: »

This.

Ok. So why shouldn't the Catalan people have their own country if they want it?

If you limit the rationale for having ones own country to the very narrow rationale of "freedom from oppression" then there's no reason for Ireland to be independent, since Irish people are no longer oppressed in the UK. The Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) should all become one big country since there's no indication any one of them would want to oppress any of the others.

Saying "I want less national borders" could go in any direction.

oscarBravo

SeanW wrote: »

Ok. So why shouldn't the Catalan people have their own country if they want it?

Why shouldn't Donegal people have their own country if they want it?

BamBam92

I don't know a lot about Spain economically but I thought Catalonia was the region with the most money, like less debt and unemployment and all that.. I thought Spain couldn't afford for them to get independence?

oscarBravo

BamBam92 wrote: »

I don't know a lot about Spain economically but I thought Catalonia was the region with the most money, like less debt and unemployment and all that.. I thought Spain couldn't afford for them to get independence?

Pretty much. Which is among the reasons I dislike this sort of nationalist sentiment: it's somewhat analagous to being in a lifeboat which is in danger of being swamped, so the richer people decide that the noble thing to do is to save themselves by throwing the poorer people over the side.

The increase in sentiment for an independent Catalonia coincides with economic downturn. Catalans realise that, as the richer region of Spain, they could insulate themselves to some extent from the effects of recession by throwing Spain over the side.

Which boils down to a belief that Catalans are inherently better people than Spaniards, and as such deserve to be better off in difficult times. This is why I have trouble finding much to admire in nationalistic sentiment.

southsiderosie

BamBam92 wrote: »

I don't know a lot about Spain economically but I thought Catalonia was the region with the most money, like less debt and unemployment and all that.. I thought Spain couldn't afford for them to get independence?

Catalonia and the Basque Country have traditionally been quite wealthy, but much of that wealth was built due to the fact that the Spanish state in the 19th and early 20th century engaged in protectionist practices that hugely benefitted the Catalan textile industry and the Basque mining and steel industries. These regions also benefited economically from the huge pool of cheap labor in Spain, particularly from Andalusia.

As for debt, the Catalan government amassed HUGE debt for the region over the last decade, and they needed the Spanish government to help bail them out. Unlike the Basques, the Catalans do not have total control over their tax rates and collection, but they do control the education and health systems, and the latter in particular is extraordinarily expensive. So part of the reason why the CiU did worse than expected was because because they are the ones who have to impose budget cuts.

One could argue that perhaps the Catalan finances would not be in such bad shape if not for their financial transfers to Madrid. But I also understand the resentment in the rest of Spain due to the sense that the Catalans don't mind being a part of the Spanish state in good times, but when things get rough, they are ready to jump ****.

SeanW

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why shouldn't Donegal people have their own country if they want it?

If, for some bizarre reason they wanted it, why not?

Should the Scottish secede from the UK if they vote for it?