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Alans Ryan funeral

  • 10-09-2012 9:50pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0909/events-around-ryan-funeral-unacceptable-shatter.html

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0910/alan-shatter-alan-ryan.html

    Shots were fired into the air as Mr Ryan's coffin was being removed from his home at Grange Abbey Drive.

    The paramilitary-style funeral was also escorted by masked men and women in black berets and military clothes.

    Minister for Justice Alan Shatter described some of the events at the funeral as reprehensible and absolutely unacceptable.

    A major security operation was put in place and roads were closed as masked men and women in military-style clothes and black berets led the funeral cortege.

    Senior figures in the dissident republican organisations also attended.

    There was a large garda presence at the funeral.


    Do posters here have an opinion on whether the Garda done the right thing in not attempting to stop the paramilitary funeral especially after gunshots where fired, and also an agreement from organisers of said funeral that it would be kept in some kind of agreed order that seems to have been broken.

    What should the Gardai have done ?

    Don't have an opinion myself as I would have no experience of being in such a situation.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70 ✭✭DublinC




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭An Udaras


    I fully support the Gardai's decision not to overtly intervene. Their restraint on the day lead to no major public order incidents. I fully trust that the mules have this to hand and someone will be receiving an early morning door knock.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    DublinC wrote: »


    Thats After hours,This forum is where the people who may have actually being involved can give there opinions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭deadwood


    realies wrote: »
    Thats After hours,This is where the people who may have actually being involved can give there opinions.

    ....but shouldn't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,562 ✭✭✭kub


    realies wrote: »
    Thats After hours,This forum is where the people who may have actually being involved can give there opinions.

    God knows they have all the time in the world to do so as well.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    I think what these scum get up to has already got enough airtime. Further discussion of them only glorifies their criminal acts.
    A criminal died, killed by other criminals. Nothing special about that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    I think what these scum get up to has already got enough airtime. Further discussion of them only glorifies their criminal acts.
    A criminal died, killed by other criminals. Nothing special about that.
    Agreed

    The collateral damage involved in any action about that event wouldnt not be worth considering. Thier own motto sums it up very well " their day will come".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    I think what these scum get up to has already got enough airtime. Further discussion of them only glorifies their criminal acts.
    A criminal died, killed by other criminals. Nothing special about that.[/QUOTE]


    Nothing special ? O that's why the minister of justice has come out and publicly commented on the whole sorry episode, No bother lads/ladies its being discussed more here for those that should be interested.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056750927


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,562 ✭✭✭kub


    realies wrote: »
    I think what these scum get up to has already got enough airtime. Further discussion of them only glorifies their criminal acts.
    A criminal died, killed by other criminals. Nothing special about that.[/QUOTE]


    Nothing special ? O that's why the minister of justice has come out and publicly commented on the whole sorry episode, No bother lads/ladies its being discussed more here for those that should be interested.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056750927


    Concentrate your own posts to there so, because if you have not already noticed no one here seems too interested in talking about such scum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,381 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    realies wrote: »
    Nothing special ? O that's why the minister of justice has come out and publicly commented on the whole sorry episode

    Yeah, because what he says really matters...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭goz83


    I personally think it was wise of the Gardai not to interfere on the day. I live on the road and knew the Ryans from way back. I never paid any attention to what little I heard of Alans IRA involvement, but it's a disgrace for any person to be gunned down like Alan was. The entire road was filled from top to bottom as the coffin was carried up the road. I have to say, I was a bit surprised to see people dressed up in Para Military gear walking past my house, followed by around a hundred people in white shirts and black ties and trousers.

    The erecting of black flags on the road and up to the church doesn't bother me at all. But, the graffiti, which has been smeared on walls is a disgrace. I'm no stranger to seeing the occasional IRA and 32 counties written on the wall, but this was a bit much and some of it was smeared on walls belonging to residents. They could have written on some sheets and hung them up temporarily, but to deface someones property is just wrong.

    In either case, a family has lost a loved one, regardless of what he did, or did not do, so my thoughts go out to the family at this time and I hope, but seriously doubt that peace will be seen now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    @ goz83 there is/was a discussion on this topic in the link above in the politics thread, As it seems :Boards.ie now ye,re talking: does not apply to some Garda issues here and is not to be encouraged :-)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭goz83


    realies wrote: »
    @ goz83 there is/was a discussion on this topic in the link above in the politics thread, As it seems :Boards.ie now ye,re talking: does not apply to some Garda issues here and is not to be encouraged :-)

    I see. It was late and I was jaded. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    realies wrote: »
    @ goz83 there is/was a discussion on this topic in the link above in the politics thread, As it seems :Boards.ie now ye,re talking: does not apply to some Garda issues here and is not to be encouraged :-)

    You can talk about it all you want. You can't force people to engage with you on something they have little interest in talking about. People playing soldiers is one such topic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 381 ✭✭480905


    I can fully understand the logic in not intervening. BUT, why have the units Personnel and equipment on hand , ready to intervene and not do it???
    If they weren't going to intervene , maintain a watching brief and gather Intel BUT having the resources on hand and not intervening? Did they lose face? I believe so.
    I've spoken to lads who were there and they were as frustrated as fcuk seeing what was going on, it's not because the mules on the ground bottled it by any means... They were furious.

    Decisions were made at the top table I would say...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 319 ✭✭Locust


    The Gardai were well capable to deal with the situation, with multiple units and experienced people there. But... decisions at the top and all...
    I know it was a funeral, sensitive with charged emotions, but say the Gardai did intervene and it kicked off (i.e. likely a riot, with numerous arrests and a few injured) I believe the majority of the general public would have backed the Gardai. It gauled me that nothing was done. What are they so afraid of? Is it not time more than ever before that this stuff was stamped out, wherever it raises its ugly head.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,562 ✭✭✭kub


    There is a certain sector in this society, who would have loved the publicity caused if the Gardai had moved on the day. As a previous poster mentioned about spraying on neighbours walls, just consider the damage which would have been done if AGS has acted there and then. These 'people' were only looking for an opportunity and the riot would have been all over the media.
    Then Joe Duffy & Assoc would be moaning about AGS actions on the day, the words 'respect for the dead' would have been brought up.

    I think AGS did the correct thing, its a small country with small communities and I have a good idea that they know who they are dealing with.
    So respect was shown by the real authority in this country on that particular and today we have 3 people remanded in custody on charges.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭John Mongo


    kub wrote: »
    There is a certain sector in this society, who would have loved the publicity caused if the Gardai had moved on the day. As a previous poster mentioned about spraying on neighbours walls, just consider the damage which would have been done if AGS has acted there and then. These 'people' were only looking for an opportunity and the riot would have been all over the media.
    Then Joe Duffy & Assoc would be moaning about AGS actions on the day, the words 'respect for the dead' would have been brought up.

    I think AGS did the correct thing, its a small country with small communities and I have a good idea that they know who they are dealing with.
    So respect was shown by the real authority in this country on that particular and today we have 3 people remanded in custody on charges.

    Then why go to the bother of bringing out the Public Order Unit etc. if when something actually happened, like shots being fired, absolutely nothing was done?

    If the real plan for AGS was to monitor who appeared at the funeral etc. well then they should've done just that. There was no need to pull out all the stops if there was zero intention to act if something happened.

    While I'm sure the people on the ground making the calls had the public best interests in their mind, the decision to roll everyone out and then do nothing, was an absolute disaster for AGS in terms of credibility and a big win for the scum who played soldier that day.

    Seriously, a Republican funeral, with shots fired over the coffin and "uniformed" Republicans parading through the streets of Dublin in 2012 should never have been allowed happen. Ever.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    John Mongo wrote: »
    Then why go to the bother of bringing out the Public Order Unit etc. if when something actually happened, like shots being fired, absolutely nothing was done?

    The Gardai were not going to provoke any riots there but they don't control the minds of the people in the crowd and it only needed 1/2 people there to take umbrage at the Gardai being present, shout a bit of abuse and the place would probably have lit up. POU wasn't there to cause trouble, was there to react to it. You pick your battles and I don't think any of the Gardai there wanted that battle there and then.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Havent three people been arrested over this funeral already?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭John Mongo


    Blay wrote: »
    The Gardai were not going to provoke any riots there but they don't control the minds of the people in the crowd and it only needed 1/2 people there to take umbrage at the Gardai being present, shout a bit of abuse and the place would probably have lit up. POU wasn't there to cause trouble, was there to react to it. You pick your battles and I don't think any of the Gardai there wanted that battle there and then.

    The amount of Gardai there and the units involved were a show of force from AGS.

    Like I said, I fully believe the people who made the call felt they were making the right call in terms of public safety. However, it's my own opinion that such a display should never have been allowed happen and due to the inaction of AGS on the day, has made them look weak to the public and will have boosted morale for hardline Republicans across the country.

    A terrorist organisation and it's members decided to test the waters at Ryan's funeral and they were allowed to do as they pleased. It should never have happened.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    John Mongo wrote: »
    The amount of Gardai there and the units involved were a show of force from AGS.

    Like I said, I fully believe the people who made the call felt they were making the right call in terms of public safety. However, it's my own opinion that such a display should never have been allowed happen and due to the inaction of AGS on the day, has made them look weak to the public and will have boosted morale for hardline Republicans across the country.

    A terrorist organisation and it's members decided to test the waters at Ryan's funeral and they were allowed to do as they pleased. It should never have happened.

    The only thing illegal that happened at the funeral was the shots being fired. It lasted a few seconds. It wasn't "allowed" happen. The matter was investigated afterwards and people have been prosecuted. What exactly is the problem?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭John Mongo


    MagicSean wrote: »
    The only thing illegal that happened at the funeral was the shots being fired. It lasted a few seconds. It wasn't "allowed" happen. The matter was investigated afterwards and people have been prosecuted. What exactly is the problem?

    Shots were fired and Gardai in the area, on the day, didn't react to it. It's unacceptable.

    It was an incident which made the force look toothless and Republicans got a boost from it. The public got the perception that the enforcers of the law in this country, with quite a number of members in the area, completely backed down from a terrorist organisation on the day.

    Such scenes should never be taking place in modern day Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    John Mongo wrote: »
    Shots were fired and Gardai in the area, on the day, didn't react to it. It's unacceptable.

    It was an incident which made the force look toothless and Republicans got a boost from it. The public got the perception that the enforcers of the law in this country, with quite a number of members in the area, completely backed down from a terrorist organisation on the day.

    Such scenes should never be taking place in modern day Ireland.

    They did react. They arrested 18 people and three are currently before the special criminal court. What did you expect them to do? A wild West style shootout perhaps?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭John Mongo


    MagicSean wrote: »
    They did react. They arrested 18 people and three are currently before the special criminal court. What did you expect them to do? A wild West style shootout perhaps?

    Yes, a wild West shootout. :rolleyes:


    Three weapons were fired in broad daylight and Gardai made the decision not to go near it. In terms of perception by the public and indeed the sewer rats involved in the display on that day, it made them look soft.

    It shouldn't have happened.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    John Mongo wrote: »
    Yes, a wild West shootout. :rolleyes:


    Three weapons were fired in broad daylight and Gardai made the decision not to go near it. In terms of perception by the public and indeed the sewer rats involved in the display on that day, it made them look soft.

    It shouldn't have happened.

    Please explain what decision you would have made. Keeping in mind the hundresd of people there and the fact you don't know who has the gun. Don't be afraid to get specific with your tactics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,434 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    two people arrested and are being held(not the cuddled "held") in coolock. Hopefully that will silence the people who wondered if the cops were doing anything about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 960 ✭✭✭guttenberg


    There has been MANY people arrested over this, and subsequently released though. It's charges people like to hear about, not arrests!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,434 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    we have a charge


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    we have a charge

    For the murder itself, not the paramilitary display.

    Even those arrested in the follow up to the funeral were on the basis of RIRA membership. The act of whipping out guns on the street and firing them off in to the air has gone completely unpunished.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    For the murder itself, not the paramilitary display.

    Even those arrested in the follow up to the funeral were on the basis of RIRA membership. The act of whipping out guns on the street and firing them off in to the air has gone completely unpunished.

    It has become a political issue though, with Limerick SF accusing gardai of being over enthusaistic in arresting the RIRA cronies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭Terrontress



    It has become a political issue though, with Limerick SF accusing gardai of being over enthusaistic in arresting the RIRA cronies.

    Either way you look at it, a crowd of terrorists took guns on to the streets of the capital, discharged them in full public view, were not challenged about it and it seems unlikely that they will be.

    The lunatics are running the asylum!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Either way you look at it, a crowd of terrorists took guns on to the streets of the capital, discharged them in full public view, were not challenged about it and it seems unlikely that they will be.

    The lunatics are running the asylum!

    When you say they were not challenged are you excluding all the followup arrests?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    MagicSean wrote: »

    When you say they were not challenged are you excluding all the followup arrests?

    Those were arrests which may have been motivated by the paramilitary bonanza in the street but those arrested were arrested on the basis of membership of a proscribed organisation.

    There has been absolutely no legal challenge for the firing of guns on the streets of Dublin.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Those were arrests which may have been motivated by the paramilitary bonanza in the street but those arrested were arrested on the basis of membership of a proscribed organisation.

    There has been absolutely no legal challenge for the firing of guns on the streets of Dublin.

    But would the actions at the funeral not form part of the case for membership?

    If a guy is charged with dangerous driving he is not also going to be charged with breaking a red light and dangerous overtaking because it forms part of the case for the dangerous driving. The more serious charge takes precedence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    MagicSean wrote: »

    But would the actions at the funeral not form part of the case for membership?

    If a guy is charged with dangerous driving he is not also going to be charged with breaking a red light and dangerous overtaking because it forms part of the case for the dangerous driving. The more serious charge takes precedence.

    And you think membership of the Real IRA is a more serious offense than discharging a firearm in public?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean



    And you think membership of the Real IRA is a more serious offense than discharging a firearm in public?

    Do I think being a member of a terrorist organisation responsable for many deaths and massive amounts of crime is more serious than firing a few shots in the air? Yes I do. It's also the easier one to prove in these circumstances as there is really no way of telling who was behind those masks is there?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    MagicSean wrote: »

    Do I think being a member of a terrorist organisation responsable for many deaths and massive amounts of crime is more serious than firing a few shots in the air? Yes I do. It's also the easier one to prove in these circumstances as there is really no way of telling who was behind those masks is there?

    Maybe you are more familiar with the discharge of weapons in public, leading to a blasé attitude, but to my mind that is an extremely sinister action. 'Firing a few shots in the air' as you put it should not be allowed in a civilised society.

    I think the actions of these nefarious organisations are much worse than simple membership.

    Are you a Garda Sean? If that attitude is prevalent within AGS it might explain the inaction toward this criminality.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean



    Maybe you are more familiar with the discharge of weapons in public, leading to a blasé attitude, but to my mind that is an extremely sinister action. 'Firing a few shots in the air' as you put it should not be allowed in a civilised society.

    I think the actions of these nefarious organisations are much worse than simple membership.

    Are you a Garda Sean? If that attitude is prevalent within AGS it might explain the inaction toward this criminality.

    What tripe. I'm sure you watch a lot of law and order but let me give you a lesson in reality. You prosecute what you can prove, not what makes a good headline. Criminal prosecutions shouldn't really be brought based on personal dislikes. So while you might get a warm feeling charging someone with the crime you want it'd be all for nothing when the case is thrown out. Your personal feelings aren't really relevant in the eyes of the law.

    All that aside, I'd question your short sighted attitude when you'd rather see someone get done for firing a shot from a pistol than see them linked to bombings, protection rackets and murders.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    MagicSean wrote: »

    What tripe. I'm sure you watch a lot of law and order but let me give you a lesson in reality. You prosecute what you can prove, not what makes a good headline. Criminal prosecutions shouldn't really be brought based on personal dislikes. So while you might get a warm feeling charging someone with the crime you want it'd be all for nothing when the case is thrown out. Your personal feelings aren't really relevant in the eyes of the law.

    All that aside, I'd question your short sighted attitude when you'd rather see someone get done for firing a shot from a pistol than see them linked to bombings, protection rackets and murders.

    Well, I'd rather see people being 'done' for immoral, dangerous behaviour than simply be 'linked' to it.

    These terrorists are probably delighted to be linked with murder, extortion, intimidation. It serves only to harden their reputation.

    Your two paragraphs contradict each other!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean



    Well, I'd rather see people being 'done' for immoral, dangerous behaviour than simply be 'linked' to it.

    These terrorists are probably delighted to be linked with murder, extortion, intimidation. It serves only to harden their reputation.

    Your two paragraphs contradict each other!

    Actually they don't.

    You are also ignoring the fact that the terrorism charge is brought to the special criminal court and so there's no danger of any kind of jury intimidation. It's also likely to attract a harsher punishment than the firearm charge.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    MagicSean wrote: »

    Actually they don't.

    You are also ignoring the fact that the terrorism charge is brought to the special criminal court and so there's no danger of any kind of jury intimidation. It's also likely to attract a harsher punishment than the firearm charge.

    Really? Membership of the Real IRA will attract a harsher punishment than taking out a gun and shooting it in a busy public place?

    I'm no expert so I'll defer to your opinion but the law is an ass if that is the case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Really? Membership of the Real IRA will attract a harsher punishment than taking out a gun and shooting it in a busy public place?

    I'm no expert so I'll defer to your opinion but the law is an ass if that is the case.

    It is actually the case, otherwise you'd have prisons full of every farmer who decided to take a pot shot at crows in a field from the roadside.
    Define a public place.(Rhetorical question).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Really? Membership of the Real IRA will attract a harsher punishment than taking out a gun and shooting it in a busy public place?

    Do you know which prison members of the IRA were usually sent to serve their sentences?

    Portlaoise. Do you know who does the security there? Look into it and that will tell you how seriously the state takes membership of the IRA.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    If police tried to take them at the scene they may have used the weapons in the crowd. People most likely would have died. If they are never charge with illegal possession so be it. The preservation of life is piority.

    He who knows when to fight and when not to fight will be victorious.
    Sun Tzu


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Zambia wrote: »
    If police tried to take them at the scene they may have used the weapons in the crowd. People most likely would have died. If they are never charge with illegal possession so be it. The preservation of life is piority.

    He who knows when to fight and when not to fight will be victorious.
    Sun Tzu

    Would you say the same about an armed robbery?

    Let them fire a few shots in to the roof of a crowded bookies and then leave them to escape. Better not to rock the boat? Sure it's only firing a few guns.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Would you say the same about an armed robbery?

    Let them fire a few shots in to the roof of a crowded bookies and then leave them to escape. Better not to rock the boat? Sure it's only firing a few guns.

    So you see no difference between shots fired in the course of a robbery in order to ensure compliance and shots fired in the air in some deluded attempt at demonstrating respect/power. Your perspective is skewed if that's the case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Would you say the same about an armed robbery?

    Let them fire a few shots in to the roof of a crowded bookies and then leave them to escape. Better not to rock the boat? Sure it's only firing a few guns.

    The big difference here, in the real world where I live, is that everyone stood about applauding the shooters.
    You'll rarely see that at an armed robbery.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    You'll rarely see that at an armed robbery.
    Unless your in Tallaght


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