Heating over boosting and the missus ain't happy :)

leeomurchu

Well lads,

I'm looking for a few reasons and possible solutions.

Our Gas boiler has always been a bit of a non starter since we moved in builder has no interest in looking at it. Threats didn't work and contractor wasn't paid.

Anyhow the boiler in questioon is roughly 5 years old. It's a gas boiler and it's made by Ariston after that I may aswell be looking into a field. I'm a spark so I know about pumps and replacing components but too be honest I wouldn't now where to start when it comes to a boiler.

So the issue is it's been over boosting since day one. Tried bleeding the system some air comes out every now and then and sometimes not so I let out some water to lower the pressure because as it runs the pressure goes off the scale 4Bar+.

There are 2 mini valves in the hot press which are controlled by stats one in the hall and the other on the landing.

Anyway the winter is fast approaching and so wanna get this sorted asap as it's a pain in the arse to heat the water. It almost seems like the water isn't circulating through the system properly but I don't think it's the pump as the pressure is there.

As it stands at the minute it's a case of turn on the heating everything starts up after 5-10mins upstairs bleed the rad in the bathroom no air just letting water out then eventually the water starts to heat but no where near as fast as it should. The water in the rad I let out is scalding I'm talking 3rd degree burns stuff here melting a plastic bottle used to catch the water.

Perhaps someone could shed some light on where to look I plan on getting a plumber in as it need to be serviced I've been a bit and by a bit I mean a lot lax on the servicing of it.

Also recently the overflow pipe out the wall had a constant drip on it and threw out some water not sure at what points but by the staining on the wall it happened a bit.

I'll leave it in your hands. I've no ego so bash away about a sparks knowing jack about plumbing but at least leave a lil bit of useful input aswell

Is it possible it's really badly air locked I'm thinking maybe one of the mini valves may be goosed is there a manual opening on them I'll find out the names when I clear out all the junk out of the hot press.:eek:

Thanks,

Get it serviced:D, if it's been a while then it may need a bit of love and a good RGI will be able to show you, I'd write it here but I know how bad you sparks are for reading instructions, I could write anything now because I probably lost you at "get it serviced" , where are you and I'll point you in the right direction;)

leeomurchu

gary71 wrote: »

Get it serviced:D, if it's been a while then it may need a bit of love and a good RGI will be able to show you, I'd write it here but I know how bad you sparks are for reading instructions, I could write anything now because I probably lost you at "get it serviced" , where are you and I'll point you in the right direction;)

Haha love it

Sure what would I need instructions for the missus instructs me on everything I do :eek: Every dog has his day

I'm in Carlow don't know anyone local myself but send on numbers or references I'll give them a bell. Moneys Tight(very tight) these days so I'm happy with cheap and cheerful

leeomurchu

leeomurchu wrote: »

So the issue is it's been over boosting since day one. Tried bleeding the system some air comes out every now and then and sometimes not so I let out some water to lower the pressure because as it runs the pressure goes off the scale 4Bar+.

In a perfect world, pressure in a pressurised heating system should be 1 1/2 bar, 4bar would be very naughty and would have to be investigated.

leeomurchu wrote: »

It almost seems like the water isn't circulating through the system properly but I don't think it's the pump as the pressure is there.

if you have no heat on your flow pipe in to the cylinder when the boiler is on then you have to be looking a boiler fault, sludge, zone valve or circulation issue.

leeomurchu

gary71 wrote: »

if you have no heat on your flow pipe in to the cylinder when the boiler is on then you have to be looking a boiler fault, sludge, zone valve or circulation issue.

There's heat reaching some of the rads up stairs it seems to be more of a circulating issue. Could I take off the mini valves on the off chance one of them is knackered?

shane0007

I would also say your pressure gauge is faulty. I'm not saying it is not over-pressized but 4 bar is unlikely. Most mains pressure would not get up to 4 bar. Even mains from wells are maximum 3 bar.

leeomurchu

shane0007 wrote: »

I would also say your pressure gauge is faulty. I'm not saying it is not over-pressized but 4 bar is unlikely. Most mains pressure would not get up to 4 bar. Even mains from wells are maximum 3 bar.

Is the gauge not a measure of the pressure when it's being pumped?

It does go up passed 4Bar on the gauge though seems to be gradual aswell which would make me think it's working. I'm not saying you're night right about it being broken though.

shane0007

No pressure is static. It will not increase when the pump is on. A pump is only a circulator. The gauge operation may still increase but from an incorrect initial level. As I said, you probably still have increased pressure but probably not 4 bar.

Now if you had a blockage, say in the heat exchanger and the pump was on, this could increase pressure.

leeomurchu

shane0007 wrote: »

Now if you had a blockage, say in the heat exchanger and the pump was on, this could increase pressure.

That could be a possibility as the the pressure is definitely not static that's for sure Seems to be a circulating issue.

shane0007

shane0007 wrote: »

I would also say your pressure gauge is faulty. I'm not saying it is not over-pressized but 4 bar is unlikely. Most mains pressure would not get up to 4 bar. Even mains from wells are maximum 3 bar.

I had a job recently where the sparks( no offence Mr Leemurche)wrapped the S/L cables around the blow off stopping it from activating, auto filler fitted, mains ramped up at night feeding 4 bar into the system, lasted a few days before the pipe work started letting out what it should of kept in:eek:, but apart from that your right Shane it is more Likly to be defective gauge, Which I should of spotted:o

leeomurchu

gary71 wrote: »

I had a job recently where the sparks( no offence Mr Leemurche)wrapped the S/L cables around the blow off stopping it from activating, auto filler fitted, mains ramped up at night feeding 4 bar into the system, lasted a few days before the pipe work started letting out what it should of kept in:eek:, but apart from that your right Shane it is more Likly to be defective gauge, Which I should of spotted:o

That's karma Gary tut tut

I don't know though lads when I did have it working properly the gauge held steady at 2-2.5 bar.

"wrapped the S/L cables around the blow off" he wrapped the what around the what now. Where'd the blow off valve be hiding? Is that the one in the hot press little barrel thing with plastic screw on top?

leeomurchu

leeomurchu wrote: »

"wrapped the S/L cables around the blow off" he wrapped the what around the what now. Where'd the blow off valve be hiding? Is that the one in the hot press little barrel thing with plastic screw on top?

A man qualified to use a Megger(a early form of taser and I lose you with S/L(switch live) and blow off(3 bar safety discharge valve, called blow off as they blow off:D).

The 3bar discharge valve is usually found within a gas system/combi boiler and will open to release excess pressure ie4 bar, they can start to open and drip at 2..

shane0007

It is the one that is leaking out through the wall by the boiler from over-pressurisation!

Your pressure should be 1 - 1.5 bar when the system is cold.

leeomurchu

you lost me at instructions.

I didn't think you spanner monkeys were up on our technical terms

How would I go about checking for a blockage in the heat exchanger.

shane0007

Also turn off the automatic filling valve. This is also why you are getting air in the rads.

leeomurchu

shane0007 wrote: »

It is the one that is leaking out through the wall by the boiler from over-pressurisation!

Your pressure should be 1 - 1.5 bar when the system is cold.

yep it's around that mark alright. Starting to think somethings blocked. Any chance limescale would cause somethin like this. Is there some kind of system flush that can be done?

leeomurchu

shane0007 wrote: »

Also turn off the automatic filling valve. This is also why you are getting air in the rads.

Any ideas where I'd find that doo hickey

shane0007

That must be an electrical term as you lost me on that one!

shane0007

Also you can powerflush a system but if the heat exchanger is blocked then they can be much more difficult to free up.

leeomurchu

shane0007 wrote: »

That must be an electrical term as you lost me on that one!

Hmm how to dull down dooo hickey ???

Only a bit of banter man I give it and take it no harm mean't.

leeomurchu

shane0007 wrote: »

Also you can powerflush a system but if the heat exchanger is blocked then they can be much more difficult to free up.

Difficult as in need to buy a new one? Are they pricey?

shane0007

Sorry I have read it right now in context with my post.

The doo hickey automatic filling valve is usually fitted in the hot press but it could be close to the boiler.

shane0007

leeomurchu wrote: »

Difficult as in need to buy a new one? Are they pricey?

I would not go buying a new heat exchanger before ensuring it is required. They can be quite expensive. A service and full system check will shed a lot more light on what needs to be done.

leeomurchu

shane0007 wrote: »

I would not go buying a new heat exchanger before ensuring it is required. They can be quite expensive. A service and full system check will shed a lot more light on what needs to be done.

Yeah I think that might be the best approach any ideas on a guesstimate for a service and full system check?

shane0007

€80 - €100 for service plus hourly rate for system check which will depend on what is found or how quickly the problem/s can be highlighted.

HappyHarry

If your expansion tank working properly?

leeomurchu

HappyHarry wrote: »

If your expansion tank working properly?

How would I go about checking that?

HappyHarry

The part of the tank with water in it will get warm as the system heats up, the part with gas\air will feel cooler. If both side are getting warm then the membrane may have perished.

leeomurchu

HappyHarry wrote: »

The part of the tank with water in it will get warm as the system heats up, the part with gas\air will feel cooler. If both side are getting warm then the membrane may have perished.

Thanks for that I'll check it out today.

The boiler is an Ariston micro system type C boiler G.C.N: 41-116-07

I'll get in and have a nose at it today see what's up. The flow pipe is scalding and the return pipe is luke warm.

DGOBS

Shane isn't too far from your area, wise move to grab him for an hour or two!

As for instructions, I love the way most sparks see 5 wires on an MV, shrug and cut off the two for the aux.

Auto-filling loops, I remember the day where they used to say 'pressure reducing valve' on the box, always wondered if water bylaws were enforced
who would be liable?

leeomurchu

DGOBS wrote: »

Shane isn't too far from your area, wise move to grab him for an hour or two!

As for instructions, I love the way most sparks see 5 wires on an MV, shrug and cut off the two for the aux.

Auto-filling loops, I remember the day where they used to say 'pressure reducing valve' on the box, always wondered if water bylaws were enforced
who would be liable?

Don't talk crazy man sure we only deal with 3 cables at a time after that you'll need and engineer

I might have a plumber organised seems a few of the neighbours need their boilers serviced so gonna see about a deal.

leeomurchu

Right have I mentioned how much I hate plumbing/heating.

Took the cover off the boiler had a bit of a rummage and eventually got the heating going the house is like a sauna.

Now I've no feckin hot water. So up to the hot press I go and from what I can tell the heat doesn't appear to be passing through the cylinder. The heat comes up and kinda goes into a sideways tee one side goes off to the cylinder the other side goes up to what I assume is a blow off valve any way the pipe is hot up to the tee then when it branches off to the cylinder it's stone cold then the return pipe out of the cylinder is cold coming out but heats up about 12inches from the cylinder.

Is it possible for a cylinder to be airlocked the cylinder has another drain valve on it with a little staggered end and square nut to loosen. opened this fully with a bottle to catch the expected flood but not a drop of water came out.

I HATE PLUMBING :mad:

Plumbers arranged for next week but it's bath night and the kids could do with a power washing never mind a bath.

Again any helpful hints would be great

Outkast_IRE

leeomurchu wrote: »

Right have I mentioned how much I hate plumbing/heating.

Took the cover off the boiler had a bit of a rummage and eventually got the heating going the house is like a sauna.

Now I've no feckin hot water. So up to the hot press I go and from what I can tell the heat doesn't appear to be passing through the cylinder. The heat comes up and kinda goes into a sideways tee one side goes off to the cylinder the other side goes up to what I assume is a blow off valve any way the pipe is hot up to the tee then when it branches off to the cylinder it's stone cold then the return pipe out of the cylinder is cold coming out but heats up about 12inches from the cylinder.

Is it possible for a cylinder to be airlocked the cylinder has another drain valve on it with a little staggered end and square nut to loosen. opened this fully with a bottle to catch the expected flood but not a drop of water came out.

I HATE PLUMBING :mad:

Plumbers arranged for next week but it's bath night and the kids could do with a power washing never mind a bath.

Again any helpful hints would be great

Is there a motorised valve located beyond this tee near to the cylinder coil ? They look like a fitting with a big plastic box attached, it sounds like it might not be opening .
Most of them have a lever sticking out you can manually push across to keep it open.

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&cp=11&gs_id=6v&xhr=t&q=motorised+valve&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1680&bih=947&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=oHNTULH_MIaKhQeDsoHoCw

leeomurchu

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Is there a motorised valve located beyond this tee near to the cylinder coil ? They look like a fitting with a big plastic box attached, it sounds like it might not be opening .
Most of them have a lever sticking out you can manually push across to keep it open.

there's a couple of mini valves before it the heating seems to be passing through them no problem I'll check again one actually felt very hot maybe it's not goin passed it and it's just ambient heat heating the pipe.

they ave a little slide on them to manually over ride I think

leeomurchu

Pics on the way

Outkast_IRE

leeomurchu wrote: »

Pics on the way

Hopefully someone else can chime in , i will be away from the computer in about 30 mins until tommorow morning , which is no good for bath time

The mini valves generally shouldnt need to be touched, how long is this problem there. Is your system zoned ?

leeomurchu

http://www.flickr.com/photos/76241517@N05/

I've taken the covers off the mini valves and turned the spigot to open so at least that cancels them out

My heating is a feckin disaster from day one.

Outkast_IRE

leeomurchu wrote: »

http://www.flickr.com/photos/76241517@N05/

I've taken the covers off the mini valves and turned the spigot to open so at least that cancels them out

My heating is a feckin disaster from day one.

The only thing that would be preventing it from flowing is if the red handled valve was fully closed by mistake , this is known as the balacning valve open it and see if the coil heats but be aware this is usually left in a half open or third open.

shane0007

Open the screw top to the automatic air vent. If sealed no air can pass and the coil could be air locked

leeomurchu

No joy with either of those the red valve was fully open and the vent screw top was off it just found it clearing out the hotpress.

It's a strange one last week I'd not heating now I've no hot water.

I found a valve of some description in the boiler it lets the water out the overflow in the wall so I let than run for a bit hoping it'd clear any air lock and it seemed to do the trick. Pressure returned to normal and heating started working now this fault seems to be as a result of doing that.

there's also a constant stream of water coming out the over flow now not loads of water but a lil constant flow. Should I be able to heat the water without heating the rads?

shane0007

Is your system vented or pressurised?

leeomurchu

shane0007 wrote: »

Is your system vented or pressurised?

haven't a clue mate what would be the things to look for on either to let ya know.

Bruthal

leeomurchu wrote: »

haven't a clue mate what would be the things to look for on either to let ya know.

Well if it has a pressure release valve, pressure gauge, expansion vessel etc, chances are its a pressurised system.

Bruthal

DGOBS wrote: »

As for instructions, I love the way most sparks see 5 wires on an MV, shrug and cut off the two for the aux.

Not all though.

Bruthal

leeomurchu wrote: »

Right have I mentioned how much I hate plumbing/heating.

Took the cover off the boiler had a bit of a rummage and eventually got the heating going the house is like a sauna.

Now I've no feckin hot water. So up to the hot press I go and from what I can tell the heat doesn't appear to be passing through the cylinder. The heat comes up and kinda goes into a sideways tee one side goes off to the cylinder the other side goes up to what I assume is a blow off valve any way the pipe is hot up to the tee then when it branches off to the cylinder it's stone cold then the return pipe out of the cylinder is cold coming out but heats up about 12inches from the cylinder.

Is it possible for a cylinder to be airlocked the cylinder has another drain valve on it with a little staggered end and square nut to loosen. opened this fully with a bottle to catch the expected flood but not a drop of water came out.

I HATE PLUMBING :mad:

Plumbers arranged for next week but it's bath night and the kids could do with a power washing never mind a bath.

Again any helpful hints would be great

Turn off all rads, either manually or with the zone valve stats, and see does the heated water from the boiler now go into the cylinder heating coil. It could be a matter of balancing. The heating coil motorised valve needs to be on, if there is one, and the gate valve on the cylinder coil open a little.

shane0007

leeomurchu wrote: »

haven't a clue mate what would be the things to look for on either to let ya know.

Is there a small water tank in your attic with a hockey stick shaped pipe over it? Not the large tank but a small tank approx 45 litres in volume.

leeomurchu

robbie7730 wrote: »

Turn off all rads, either manually or with the zone valve stats, and see does the heated water from the boiler now go into the cylinder heating coil. It could be a matter of balancing. The heating coil motorised valve needs to be on, if there is one, and the gate valve on the cylinder coil open a little.

I think the mini valves are just for controlling upstairs down stairs rads via stats they're the only two in pics anyway.

It's as if there's somethin stopping the water goin through the cylinder. weird.

I think I'll be waiting till the plumber arrives see what he reckons just don't wanna get a bill for hours spent trying to figure it out.

Am #i right in thinking if the valves are off and I turn the spigot to open it's the same as removing them altogether or is there an auto shut off once they're removed?

leeomurchu

shane0007 wrote: »

Is there a small water tank in your attic with a hockey stick shaped pipe over it? Not the large tank but a small tank approx 45 litres in volume.

Nope definitely not just the standard cold water one.

Bruthal

leeomurchu wrote: »

Nope definitely not just the standard cold water one.

Another pointer toward a certain pressurised system

shane0007

leeomurchu wrote: »

No joy with either of those the red valve was fully open and the vent screw top was off it just found it clearing out the hotpress.

It's a strange one last week I'd not heating now I've no hot water.

I found a valve of some description in the boiler it lets the water out the overflow in the wall so I let than run for a bit hoping it'd clear any air lock and it seemed to do the trick. Pressure returned to normal and heating started working now this fault seems to be as a result of doing that.

there's also a constant stream of water coming out the over flow now not loads of water but a lil constant flow. Should I be able to heat the water without heating the rads?

This is where you are confusing me. Can you take a picture of this valve and overflow?

Bruthal

leeomurchu wrote: »

I think the mini valves are just for controlling upstairs down stairs rads via stats they're the only two in pics anyway.

It's as if there's somethin stopping the water goin through the cylinder. weird.

I think I'll be waiting till the plumber arrives see what he reckons just don't wanna get a bill for hours spent trying to figure it out.

Am #i right in thinking if the valves are off and I turn the spigot to open it's the same as removing them altogether or is there an auto shut off once they're removed?

If the water is flowing too easily through all the rads, it can avoid going through the cylinder coil, or more often vice versa, which is where balancing comes in, which involves restricting the flow through some rads, particularly ones nearer the boiler/pump.

So closing the rad circuits altogether will show if this improves flow through the cylinder coil, and heats your HW. Just ensure the gate valve for the cylinder coil is open about 1 turn from closed which should be enough.