Shefflin penalty - did he take the correct option?

Warper

Ok, hindsight is great and he had a great game in general yesterday. Also the greatest of all-time etc. etc.

But wtf with the decision to take a pt with 2 1/2 mins left plus injury-time when teams are level? The game was in his hand. 3 pts there and it be near impossible for Galway to come back. 1 pt didnt guarantee anything really. It was a penalty as a goal-scoring opportunity was denied. To take a point with, in reality, 5 mins left was ludicrous imo. Not only did Galway have plenty of time to draw the match, they had time to win it. Horrible decision.

listermint

Warper wrote: »

Ok, hindsight is great and he had a great game in general yesterday. Also the greatest of all-time etc. etc.

But wtf with the decision to take a pt with 2 1/2 mins left plus injury-time when teams are level? The game was in his hand. 3 pts there and it be near impossible for Galway to come back. 1 pt didnt guarantee anything really. It was a penalty as a goal-scoring opportunity was denied. To take a point with, in reality, 5 mins left was ludicrous imo. Not only did Galway have plenty of time to draw the match, they had time to win it. Horrible decision.

But if he missed the goal or saved it wouldnt galway have a greater chance of winning ?

BroLo

listermint wrote: »

But if he missed the goal or saved it wouldnt galway have a greater chance of winning ?

If he went for goal and missed, not only would Galway have won based on the actual final score, but Galway would have been energised from the save and probably would have tacked on 2 or 3 more points, winning comfortably.

Warper

listermint wrote: »

But if he missed the goal or saved it wouldnt galway have a greater chance of winning ?

Risk/reward. The value of a goal there outweighed the risk of missing it. After all if it was saved, it probably would have went out for a 65 or else bounced back into play.

listermint

Warper wrote: »

Risk/reward. The value of a goal there outweighed the risk of missing it. After all if it was saved, it probably would have went out for a 65 or else bounced back into play.

no i dont believe so, as above..

harpsman

No

Warper wrote: »

Risk/reward. The value of a goal there outweighed the risk of missing it. After all if it was saved, it probably would have went out for a 65 or else bounced back into play.

Na given how dominant kilkenny were he was right to think they would close it out and he missed a chance a minute later to go 2 up.
Also,they didnt lose and will feel quite confident of winnin replay

ShamoBuc

He went for goal in the first half, missed and then missed the 65. I reckon that miss might have helped his decision to not go for goal.

super_furry

No

No brainer in my opinion. He put his side in front with two minutes to go, always the right call rather than taking the gamble of finding the net.

The only thing i'm wondering is that whether 2009 had any bearing on Henry's decision?

Ok that day he scored but did he feel that had perhaps Cummins managed to divert the ball another direction or even had he missed it and maybe Padraic Maher stopped it on the line?

KevIRL

As I wrote in my article for livegaelic.com

Hindsight of course is a wonderful thing, but my view at the time remains unchanged now, Shefflin should have gone for goal. A few factors were key here, Kilkenny were level, so in a worst case scenario of a complete miss they would have remained so, in a penalty situation facing just 3 on the goal surely Shefflin would expect to goal at least 3 out of 4 times, also a high % of the times he does not goal a save may result in a 65 or even a deflection over the bar – so roughly 85-90% of his penalty goal attempts would result in at least a point. Also there is the risk/reward factor, a goal from the penalty would have surely meant the Liam McCarthy would be making its way back to Kilkenny today; all of these factors I feel combine to make the best possible decision a shot at goal in the situation.

Read the rest of the article here /shameless plug

WumBuster

I felt he bottled it, tbh. I know it was a tense situation but there was still 2 minutes plus 3,4 mins injury time left and one point did not guarantee the winning of the game though a goal almost certainly would have. Being the legend that he is I thought he would have enough confidence in himself to bury it, and no one would have blamed him if he went for it and missed.

theteal

It was madness to go for goal from the 21 in the first half, that'll be his bigger regret, also I'd say that was on his mind when taking the peno

False Prophet

No

Correct choice. By going for the point he ensured that worse case scenario they lived to fight again.
I did think it was poor management by cody not to indicate what to do.

Warper

ShamoBuc wrote: »

He went for goal in the first half, missed and then missed the 65. I reckon that miss might have helped his decision to not go for goal.

That was a free with 5 men on the line, big difference. He took the easy option with the penalty imo. He showed a lack of conviction, dare to sayit, he may even have bottled it.

Warper

False Prophet wrote: »

Correct choice. By going for the point he ensured that worse case scenario they lived to fight again.
I did think it was poor management by cody not to indicate what to do.

You would think that arguably the greatest player of all-time would know what the best option is in that situation. By taking a point he only guaranteed that they were 1 point up with 5 or 6 mins left, thats all it guaranteed. Galway were delighted he let them off the hook.

KevIRL

While I think he should have gone for it, saying he bottled or it was an awful decision not to go for goal is harsh. Its still marginal enough, although as I said I do feel he should have gone for it

keith16

Warper wrote: »

You would think that arguably the greatest player of all-time would know what the best option is in that situation. By taking a point he only guaranteed that they were 1 point up with 5 or 6 mins left, thats all it guaranteed. Galway were delighted he let them off the hook.

I think it was the best option. The only points that were scored in the last 10 mins or so were generally frees.

- Galway were bound to get another free in the time left.
- Canning was blowing hot and cold over the dead ball, so he really put the pressure back on Canning by taking the point.
- Galway, having saved a goal in the first half (from the 21) and denied them another brilliant goalscoring chance in the 2nd just didn't look like they would concede a goal all day.
- If the goal was missed (very strong possibility), Galway would most likely be AI champs.

Sheff should have taken the point in the first half (65 went wide too), that's the bigger talking point IMO. He really should have stuck that one over the bar (and who knows, if the KK were 1 up when he was taking that pen, then maybe he would have went for goal).

I was shocked when he went for goal in the first half.

wow sierra

I was at the game and all the people around me reckoned he should hit it over - this is before he hit it. Any opinions given now are going to be tainted by hindsight and are a bit pointless.

At the time I said I thought he should go for goal - but I accept that Henry is a better hurler than me or anyone else alive for that matter :D:D:D:D. So I reckon he knew what he was doing. Maybe the excellent performance of Herrity on the day had a bearing on his decision, maybe he was going for the safest option......All history now anyway - and I am glad it was a draw.

curry-muff

No

Looking at this from a football fan who rarely watches hurling I think he went for the right option. A guaranteed score versus a 50-50 chance of a match winner.

My main reasoning behind it is that often the case with missed penalties is that it gives the defending team a huge boost and the Kilkenny players heads would have dropped after such an important wasted chance.

Missing the goal chance would have deflated his team, scoring the point kept them in it and steadied their nerves.

Right opion imo.

Duiske

I feel he made the wrong decision. A shot aimed high to the net would most likely have resulted in either a goal or a deflected point. On the other hand though, if that soft free for Galway at the end had not been given we would all be saying he made the right choice. Tough call for Henry, but still think he should have went for goal.

WumBuster

Warper wrote: »

You would think that arguably the greatest player of all-time would know what the best option is in that situation. By taking a point he only guaranteed that they were 1 point up with 5 or 6 mins left, thats all it guaranteed. Galway were delighted he let them off the hook.

despite his fantastic achievements and obvious talents as a hurler, for my money he is not one of the top greatest hurlers of all time. He is slightly overrated in that, ok he'd probably be in the top 10-15 maybe but i dont think he has the raw talent and abilty to excite as say people like Ring, DJ Carey, a Johnny Dooley or a John Mullane, even. He is a great team player playing in a fantastic team with a manager who has been able to get the best out of him, yes he does have lots ability and skill but wouldnt say its that much superior to a top forward playing for any of the other counties. Yes he is a great hurler but I wouldnt have him up with the very best, most naturally gifted hurlers.

Keano

WumBuster wrote: »

despite his fantastic achievements and obvious talents as a hurler, for my money he is not one of the top greatest hurlers of all time. He is slightly overrated in that, ok he'd probably be in the top 10-15 maybe but i dont think he has the raw talent and abilty to excite as say people like Ring, DJ Carey, a Johnny Dooley or a John Mullane, even. He is a great team player playing in a fantastic team with a manager who has been able to get the best out of him, yes he does have lots ability and skill but wouldnt say its that much superior to a top forward playing for any of the other counties. Yes he is a great hurler but I wouldnt have him up with the very best, most naturally gifted hurlers.

Ah seriously, step away from the keyboard.

ohyesthefinest

WumBuster wrote: »

despite his fantastic achievements and obvious talents as a hurler, for my money he is not one of the top greatest hurlers of all time. He is slightly overrated in that, ok he'd probably be in the top 10-15 maybe but i dont think he has the raw talent and abilty to excite as say people like Ring, DJ Carey, a Johnny Dooley or a John Mullane, even. He is a great team player playing in a fantastic team with a manager who has been able to get the best out of him, yes he does have lots ability and skill but wouldnt say its that much superior to a top forward playing for any of the other counties. Yes he is a great hurler but I wouldnt have him up with the very best, most naturally gifted hurlers.

lol.

False Prophet

No

WumBuster wrote: »

despite his fantastic achievements and obvious talents as a hurler, for my money he is not one of the top greatest hurlers of all time. He is slightly overrated in that, ok he'd probably be in the top 10-15 maybe but i dont think he has the raw talent and abilty to excite as say people like Ring, DJ Carey, a Johnny Dooley or a John Mullane, even. He is a great team player playing in a fantastic team with a manager who has been able to get the best out of him, yes he does have lots ability and skill but wouldnt say its that much superior to a top forward playing for any of the other counties. Yes he is a great hurler but I wouldnt have him up with the very best, most naturally gifted hurlers.

Im not from kilkenny but ive seen DJ Carey, Johnny Dooley,John Mullane and shefflin is easily ahead of them(but then Mullane + DJ would not be in my top 20 of the last 20 years)

statesaver

No

I nearly roared with delight when he took the point and i was there supporting Galway , so, yeah he made the right decision

fatherbuzcagney

No

Correct choice,Shefflin knew that they would win the replay so he just took the point:eek:

False Prophet

No

Warper wrote: »

You would think that arguably the greatest player of all-time would know what the best option is in that situation.

Yes he did but i believe that so called/arguably greatest manager should have told him what to do.

Warper wrote: »

By taking a point he only guaranteed that they were 1 point up with 5 or 6 mins left, thats all it guaranteed. Galway were delighted he let them off the hook.

There was only 2-3 mins left as penalty was in the 68 minute + Galway were badly struggling for scores in the second half. Dont forget the pressure that would be on galway to get that score plus the likehood of gaps as they pushed farward/panic etc.

ChippingSodbury

False Prophet wrote: »

Im not from kilkenny but ive seen DJ Carey, Johnny Dooley,John Mullane and shefflin is easily ahead of them(but then Mullane + DJ would not be in my top 20 of the last 20 years)

Jaysus, that's a bit harsh on DJ and John Mullane.
I'd have to say Shefflin is probably the best I've ever seen. I think John Mullane, if he was born on the other side of the river and played for Kilkenny, would be up there too. DJ was magic but not as magic as Shefflin.

Shefflin is a real team player. I think his decision yesterday was the right one: he put his team ahead and trusted them to win: they were on top and scoring more than Galway in the period. If he went for goal and missed, my guess is Galway would probably have won. All you'd hear then was "why did he go for goal? Sure, weren't Kilkenny well on top at that stage and they would have tacked on a few more before the end..."
We'll never know!!
Here's a story (feck all to do with hurling) that has two different endings based on the choice of a lad cycling down a hill (much like Henry standing over the penalty if you use your imagination!!)
cesargiusti.bluehosting.com.br/Contos/textos/widowsson.pdf

purplepanda

Should have gone for goal, that's what most would have expected from the Cats, they usually put their opponents to the sword, especially in the closing stages of matches. :rolleyes:

dirkmeister

No

He was right to take the point. The Kilkenny backs were well on top and you would have fancied KK to tack on a point or two.

Some of the stuff being written here is mad altogether.

Henry lacked the bottle?

Seriously.....just...I'm actually speechless with that comment, it's nearly as mad as the lad saying Johnny Dooley and Mullane were better

WumBuster

False Prophet wrote: »

Im not from kilkenny but ive seen DJ Carey, Johnny Dooley,John Mullane and shefflin is easily ahead of them(but then Mullane + DJ would not be in my top 20 of the last 20 years)

As good as Shefflin is, Ive never seen him go on a long mazy solo run like DJ or throw points over from the sideline over his head like John Mullane can.Or i dont think he is physically strong enough to burst through 3 or 4 players like joe Canning can.But he does the simple things very well better than most can and is a very good decision maker like when to bring others into play or when to take his point, etc which he usually does. Himself and Cody are a brilliant double act and have been the makings of this Kilkenny team, though.

AhrSkidar

Anyone got any idea of Henry's success rate (i.e. scoring goals) from penalties in Championship games? Appreciate this isn't baseball where stats are everything, but would still like to have some idea how prolific he is. (I'd guess around 66%).

I'm from Galway. Was sure he'd go for a goal and felt certain he'd score it. Even though he gave Kilkenny the lead, I felt renewed hope when he pointed.

the realpigiron

BroLo wrote: »

If he went for goal and missed, not only would Galway have won based on the actual final score, but Galway would have been energised from the save and probably would have tacked on 2 or 3 more points, winning comfortably.

There's no way you can say that that what would've happened if Shefflin's pen was stopped. KK could've won the ball from the clearance and scored from that or the ball could've been deflected for a 65 - another good chance of a point. He should have went for the goal, very surprised that he didn't.

jimbo79

Warper wrote: »

Ok, hindsight is great and he had a great game in general yesterday. Also the greatest of all-time etc. etc.

But wtf with the decision to take a pt with 2 1/2 mins left plus injury-time when teams are level? The game was in his hand. 3 pts there and it be near impossible for Galway to come back. 1 pt didnt guarantee anything really. It was a penalty as a goal-scoring opportunity was denied. To take a point with, in reality, 5 mins left was ludicrous imo. Not only did Galway have plenty of time to draw the match, they had time to win it. Horrible decision.

he choked, the experts won't say it as it's king henry but he let fear rule him and went for the point, it was as good as a save for galway and they improved after it, it's an allireland final, if you get a chance to goal you take it

Robson99

the realpigiron wrote: »

There's no way you can say that that what would've happened if Shefflin's pen was stopped. KK could've won the ball from the clearance and scored from that or the ball could've been deflected for a 65 - another good chance of a point. He should have went for the goal, very surprised that he didn't.

Totally agree. If he went for goal & scored it would almost certainly have won the game for KK. Fortune favours the brave.

allthedoyles

He made an error of judgement in the 1st half when he went for goal from 21 .

He compounded that error by going for point with 2 minutes left.

WumBuster

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Really...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fja6HZDdBXQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

ya sure great point but the dummy/change of direction Ive seen many players do, at underage levels even, so its hardly a trick he invented, he was just well coached to do so from a young age as they do so in Kilkenny.

Keano

Who said he invented it?

You're on a trolling mission so therefore I'm out

MfMan

As a Galwayman I'm delighted he went for the point. While the earlier miss may have been in his thoughts, the peno he scored v. Tipp in '09 would surely have crossed his mind too. I think he went for the percentage chance, given that Galway were at that stage having severe difficulties in winning possession and creating scoring chances. Perhaps of greater import were the 2 chances he missed even later, especially the one he sent wide which wasn't extra hard.

I can see what Wumbuster is trying to say in a previous post; he doesn't excite the crowd with brilliance a-la Carey, Mullane, Canning etc. He is however the ultimate team player, as witnessed by his knowledge of what to do and almost single-handed efforts to bring KK back into the game yesterday.

Professey Chin

One thing hes proven to me time and time again is KK are going to have a massive problem replacing him. Theyre still a great team without him but he really does make their entire attack tick properly. Having that much influence even surrounded by those players shows that how great he is cant be questioned

WumBuster

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Who said he invented it?

You're on a trolling mission so therefore I'm out

I never said he isnt a brilliant player but Im just a bit tired of people jizzing themselves about king henry when i think there are other players who i think are/were as good and better than him in different ways, depending on how you look at it. But anyway im out as well before the King henry train knocks me down.

the realpigiron

MfMan wrote: »

As a Galwayman I'm delighted he went for the point. While the earlier miss may have been in his thoughts, the peno he scored v. Tipp in '09 would surely have crossed his mind too. I think he went for the percentage chance, given that Galway were at that stage having severe difficulties in winning possession and creating scoring chances. Perhaps of greater import were the 2 chances he missed even later, especially the one he sent wide which wasn't extra hard.

I can see what Wumbuster is trying to say in a previous post; he doesn't excite the crowd with brilliance a-la Carey, Mullane, Canning etc. He is however the ultimate team player, as witnessed by his knowledge of what to do and almost single-handed efforts to bring KK back into the game yesterday.

Don't mind wumbuster. Anyone remotely interested in hurling both admires and are enthralled by the talents of Henry Shefflin. His performance when he went CF in the 2nd half yesterday changed the game. Wumbuster mentioned Johnny Dooley - a fine hurler - but Johnny wasn't even the best hurler in his family.

Hulk Hands

I would put the likelihood of Shefflin putting that away at well over 50%. If it was the very last puck of the game and KK were 1 point down, I would say to go for goal as you have to put his chances at over 50-50. If he scored there in the 66th minute, the game was in all probability over. So you have a chance to win an All Ireland where the odds are in your favour. Add in the chance that the ball gets deflected over the bar, or over for a 65, or a rebound is put away by an onrushing player or by Shefflin himself. And even if you miss, the game is still level. No brainer to go for it imo. As I Galway man, I was over the moon when he went for a point

LeoB

No

I think he took the right decision. He put Kilkenny in front but it also meant Galway needed a goal to win or 2 points. The way the game was flowing I think he said well lets get in front and it left Galway chasing the score to level the game. I agree had he went for goal and missed it could well have energized Galway for the last few minutes but I suppose we can guess all we like.

Diabhal Beag

He made the right choice by virtue of circumstance. He had just seen Skehill make a top class save, had missed a free when he was gunning for goal earlier and also missed some chances he normally would bang over the bar. Factor in the potential of a miss and you would face a massive gain of momentum in the Galway team. When he knocked it over it was KK's match to lose.

corcaigh07

No

he made the right choice, safe but right. I think if it was a bit earlier like the 64th minute, he would have gone for it. The way galway were struggling, it was wise to go ahead and make them sweat instead with not long left.

corny

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

He made the right choice by virtue of circumstance. He had just seen Skehill make a top class save, had missed a free when he was gunning for goal earlier and also missed some chances he normally would bang over the bar. Factor in the potential of a miss and you would face a massive gain of momentum in the Galway team. When he knocked it over it was KK's match to lose.

You're really concentrating on the consequences of missing, overstating imo, and ignoring the fact he had a chance to win the AI. A goal wins the AI and its the most likely outcome (has to be well above 50%). You have to go for goal; even if it was 51%-49% you go for goal.

robbiezero

No

If Kilkenny had won the All-Ireland by a point people would have said he made the right decision.
He may have felt he wasnt striking the ball as purely as normal also. Bad effort in first half from 21, easily saved, couple of points missed also.
He may also have watched the intermediate all ireland last sat night in Semple.
Kilkenny were 12 down at half time v tipp, came out in second half, outscored tipp by 1-10 to 0-02 to be a point behind. Won a penalty with a few minutes left, saved. Tipp went on to win the game by 2 points, getting a huge boost from the penalty save.

Just on a separate point, the Shefflin effort that dropped into Skehill's hands, there would have been serious uproar had that went over (which it should have) and Kilkenny won, Barry Kelly had blocked Regan from contesting the ball with Shefflin and allowed him to get a free shot. It should have been a throw in ball.

stdidit

Before he took the penalty I had an argument with my brother, who said he should take the point, I said he should go for goal and win the game. It is a tough one but I stand by what I thought at the time. I know life is full of what if's, but what if Canning had got that free almost straight after the penalty and then won the game with the free that turned out to be the equalizer??? Shefflin would have taken a lot of criticism for his decision but then again if Canning had got the first free, chances are Galway might not have got the last free.

Its all hindsight anyway, was a close decision and I'm glad for him and for Canning that it ended in a draw as it would have been harsh on both, given their performances, for a missed free or wrong decision from a penalty to be the deciding factor in the result.

Warper

Shefflin's success rate from penalties would have to be over 80%. Penalties are scored well over 60% of the time across the game. When you factor in rebounds, 65's coming from same, going for goal far outweighs taking the minimum score from such a promising position.

The man was going for his 9th AI success and it was in his hands. He was the reason KK got back into the game but he bottled that penalty.

Roger Sterling

Warper wrote: »

Shefflin's success rate from penalties would have to be over 80%. Penalties are scored well over 60% of the time across the game. When you factor in rebounds, 65's coming from same, going for goal far outweighs taking the minimum score from such a promising position.

The man was going for his 9th AI success and it was in his hands. He was the reason KK got back into the game but he bottled that penalty.

Until you have the actual stats, basing an argument on them is ridiculous.