Classic Rock Forum Feedback Part II

Malice

I have created this thread as a follow-on from the previous one. I'd like to address a couple of points that were made that I was unable to before the previous thread was locked.

dr.bollocko wrote:

So far as I am aware, the rock / metal forum will continue as is

No one discussed this with any of the Rock & Metal moderators either before the forum was created or now that the forum is live. This is the only mention to date of what is to happen with the existing forum. One of the many concerns I raised with the Classic Rock forum creator was to do with genre. Would it be possible to actually define classic rock in the charter?

LoLth wrote:

on occasion the admins can approach a forum mod and suggest a sub-forum

There was no approach or suggestion in this case. I was asked for my thoughts on it and any questions I raised were ignored. It then transpired that the request for my input was nothing more than a thinly-veiled "This is happening so get used to it". I don't believe it's right that someone who doesn't post in or visit a forum should have the power to make drastic changes to that forum without at least having the courtesy to discuss and respond to any concerns raised by the local moderators.

mike65

Fair play to you Malice, not often Mods (even old, er venerated ones) stick their head above the parapet.

One of the many concerns I raised with the Classic Rock forum creator was to do with genre. Would it be possible to actually define classic rock in the charter?

Which was the first thought that popped into my tiny brain at the time of the request.

pickarooney

The Darkness, Kasabian, Chesney Hawkes, that kind of thing, no?

Max Power1

To concur with the sentiment of Malice's earlier post, and as a regular poster in the main R&M forum, I really dont understand the need for the new one tbh.

I mean, we have a Rock and Metal forum, and now a classic rock forum. Should we have one forum for Rock and one for Metal? Who is in charge of defining which is which?

In my opinion all this move will do is take a forum which doesnt recieve heavy traffic as it is (R&M) and dilute the target audience even further. I also dont see why classic rock acts cant be discussed in the existing R&M forum (seeing as classic rock is still "Rock" and part of the "Rock and Metal" remit)

/My two cents

sentient_6

The only thing id say about Rock & Metal, at the moment, in my opinion, is it's generally far more metal than it is rock. Whether thats stopping people from posting...i dunno.

Of course i dont see why any recent activity that the classic rock forum is generating couldnt just happen in R&M all long either. We could just be one big happy family! :pac:

GLaDOS

sentient_6 wrote: »

The only thing id say about Rock & Metal, at the moment, in my opinion, is it's generally far more metal than it is rock. Whether thats stopping people from posting...i dunno.

Quick look at the front page of the R&M forum now

15 threads not genre specific
3 Threads on rock: Pearl Jam, Therapy?, Rush
2 Threads on a metal: Metallica 'Rate what the user above you is listening to (Metal)'

Not sure where Sirocco, Marillion and Warrior Soul fit in as never listened to them, Steve Vai, Devin Townsend probably somewhere in between.

Probably missed out some, but my point is it's silly to suggest the R&M forum is unfriendly towards rock. Classic rock fits right under the umbrella of R&M and I don't see any need for a stand alone forum.

Schism

I've noticed from having a browse through the Classic Rock forum that a lot of the posts are being made by people who I wouldn't normally see posting in the Rock & Metal forum.

Just an observation, not sure what it means. Maybe some people came into Rock & Metal, didn't see anything familiar and declined to post or add a thread of their own.

If there is enough demand for a forum specifically catering to Classic Rock then I don't see any harm in having it if it doesn't take from the traffic going to the pre existing Rock & Metal forum.

In my opinion though a forum dedicated to Classic Rock is a niche that isn't needed as anything defined as Classic Rock fits into the Rock & Metal band just as well. If a Classic Rock forum is needed, then going by some of the posters in Rock & Metal, a Death Metal forum would be just as warranted. However as I stated originally there's a few new people posting in Classic Rock, so if allowing those people to have a space where they feel comfortable to discuss certain bands it's no skin off my nose.

One other issue I can see arising for mods is where to draw the line in genre. If I were to post a thread on Deep Purple in Rock & Metal, should it remain? as it is Rock. Or should it be moved? as it is most certainly Classic Rock too.

Overall I think it's an unnecessary subdivision but as long as there's no confusion I don't see the harm. Time will tell

Mr. CooL ICE

Schism wrote: »

However as I stated originally there's a few new people posting in Classic Rock, so if allowing those people to have a space where they feel comfortable to discuss certain bands it's no skin off my nose.

But what is it about the R&M forum that people wouldn't be comfortable posting in there, but feel comfortable posting in Classic Rock? It's well moderated, everyone is friendly and there's a somewhat wide selection of music available... including classic rock

old gregg

I can't see a problem with the new forum. My guess is that many of the folks who'll post in Classic Rock will be of an older age group and might find the existing R & M forum a little intimidating.

I don't see any reason why people who want to post about a band like Deep Purple can't do so in either forum depending on which they feel most comfortable with.

Personally, even as an older-ish person I'd have little interest in Classic Rock. It just doesn't do it for me. I can't say I find the R & M forum to be that inviting but it's where most of the Metal music I listen to is discussed. For the most part, I prefer the atmosphere and friendliness of the Electronic music forum.

mike65

Classic Rock could be a sub forum for Oldwans 'n' Oldfellas alright.

few

LordChessington wrote: »

But what is it about the R&M forum that people wouldn't be comfortable posting in there, but feel comfortable posting in Classic Rock? It's well moderated, everyone is friendly and there's a somewhat wide selection of music available... including classic rock

I wouldn't say it's well moderated and friendly for everyone. Endless voting/award threads, bans for listening too much music, absolutely no respect for time on the pit threads etc etc etc, - not really welcome attitude imo.

As for Classic Rock forum I found myself in unfamiliar territory there because I was never into rock, but I am glad that guys are happy sharing their opinions on their favourite music with like-minded people, I feel absolutely no shame that they preferred to create their own space to make themselves feel comfortable.
And I wish them best of luck.

Schism

few wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's well moderated

I have to disagree with you here. The forum was previously moderated by Karl Hungus who did an excellent job and really ran a tight ship as it were.

When he deactivated his account Malice was promoted and although he has a different style, he's quite friendly towards all posters (especially new ones) and keeps things just as tidy.

Lord lucan was added as a mod not so long ago and I can only imagine it's for the same reasons Malice was promoted. He has the same friendly posting style.

I really don't think that the moderation is an issue. I can think of some moderators on the site that are somewhat condescending or even a little bit autocratic in their forums, but it's not so in Rock & Metal.

Malice

ScienceNerd wrote: »

my point is it's silly to suggest the R&M forum is unfriendly towards rock.

I agree with your post but sentient_6 didn't suggest that the Rock & Metal forum is unfriendly towards Rock.

Schism wrote:

Just an observation, not sure what it means. Maybe some people came into Rock & Metal, didn't see anything familiar and declined to post or add a thread of their own.

That's a fair point but then it ends up like a vicious circle doesn't it? A poster perceives that the Rock & Metal forum is biased towards Metal and posts their thread somewhere else e.g. this Queen thread on the Music forum. Another poster comes along, sees Queen in Music and posts there rather than Rock & Metal. the end result is two posters lost.

Schism wrote:

I don't see any harm in having it if it doesn't take from the traffic going to the pre existing Rock & Metal forum

It's naturally going to do exactly that though isn't it?

LordChessington wrote: »

But what is it about the R&M forum that people wouldn't be comfortable posting in there, but feel comfortable posting in Classic Rock?

That's a key question which would be great to get answers to.

old gregg wrote: »

I can't say I find the R & M forum to be that inviting

How come though? Do you have suggestions on how the Rock & Metal forum can be made more inviting? Feel free to PM me or lord lucan if you would prefer it to be kept private.

blastman

I've already had a moan in the CR forum, as I just noticed it now, but I'm with Malice on this one. Personally I think this will just take traffic from an existing, well-modded forum. I've started threads in Rock & Metal on bands like Marillion and Jason & The Scorchers and found that there were actually other people out there who liked them too. Neither could be considered metal bands, but I didn't get attacked or ridiculed for mentioning them on a "metal" forum (unlike what happens when I mention them in real life, apparently the people I know have no taste in music!).

Classic Rock is a magazine and should stay as such. It's certainly not a genre, IMO.

Cill94

sentient_6 wrote: »

The only thing id say about Rock & Metal, at the moment, in my opinion, is it's generally far more metal than it is rock. Whether thats stopping people from posting...i dunno.

That would only confirm that they refuse to share the same space with people interested in heavier music. There was never anything to stop Classic Rock fans from making their own threads about the music that interests them and discussing it within the R&M forum. I don't see a lot of threads on black metal either but I'm not going to campaign for a new forum for it, I'd make my own thread to get a discussion going and if others aren't interested: tough. Even then, at least the black metal example has defined characteristics to separate it as a genre, unlike Classic Rock. So why it deserves its own forum escapes me.

Mr. CooL ICE

Every time I have had a look in classic rock, I haven't seen a thread that would have been perfectly at home in R&M.

Actually, one exception. I saw a thread that really should have gone in bands/musicians here. I reported it about 18 hours ago but its still there. Is classic rock immune to the standard cross-posting rule?

few wrote:

I wouldn't say it's well moderated and friendly for everyone. Endless voting/award threads, bans for listening too much music, absolutely no respect for time on the pit threads etc etc etc, - not really welcome attitude imo.

I don't see how any of this makes it badly moderated or unfriendly. Voting/award threads are standard discussion material. Pit threads are usually left open for at least 2 weeks, which is more than enough time. I don't know what you mean by people being banned for listening to too much music?

Have you ever brought up these concerns with any of the mods or helpdesk/feedback?

EchoO

blastman wrote: »

Classic Rock is a magazine and should stay as such. It's certainly not a genre, IMO.

It's not just a magazine, it's also a very well established radio format. That format was devised I'd imagine for the same reason the Classic Rock forum was i.e. there was an audience out there for it. It's all very well saying that there is nothing stopping anyone form starting classic rock-type threads in R&M thread, but for however many years that forum has existed that hasn't happened to any great extent.

blastman

EchoO wrote: »

It's not just a magazine, it's also a very well established radio format. That format was devised I'd imagine for the same reason the Classic Rock forum was i.e. there was an audience out there for it. It's all very well saying that there is nothing stopping anyone form starting classic rock-type threads in R&M thread, but for however many years that forum has existed that hasn't happened to any great extent.

My point stands that it's not a musical genre, though i.e. it doesn't group one style of music under a heading the way "heavy metal" or "blues" does.

few

blastman wrote: »

My point stands that it's not a musical genre, though i.e. it doesn't group one style of music under a heading the way "heavy metal" or "blues" does.

Is "Rock & Metal" musical genre?

few

LordChessington wrote: »

I don't see how any of this makes it badly moderated or unfriendly. Voting/award threads are standard discussion material. Pit threads are usually left open for at least 2 weeks, which is more than enough time. I don't know what you mean by people being banned for listening to too much music?

Have you ever brought up these concerns with any of the mods or helpdesk/feedback?

Yes, I have.
I know this thread wasn't invented to discuss R/M moderation but I was only reacting on someones post above. I am sorry if it looked like I am rocking the boat.
If you think that R/M forum is grand that's perfectly fine with me, but I see no point in trying to kill this new forum and judge people who are posting there.
People created their own forum and just having fun there - there is no problem at all.
That's what I think.

El Weirdo

LordChessington wrote: »

But what is it about the R&M forum that people wouldn't be comfortable posting in there...?

The smell of leather and stale cider.








:pac:

Malice

Apologies for going off-topic but I think this is worth responding to.

few wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's well moderated and friendly for everyone. Endless voting/award threads, bans for listening too much music, absolutely no respect for time on the pit threads etc etc etc, - not really welcome attitude imo.

Very few people have complained about the voting and award threads. One person (possibly two, I can't remember) got a ban for moderator abuse after they were asked to stop posting consecutive videos in the Now Listening To thread. That's one person out of the few hundred that have used that thread. The In the Pit threads are informal and they depend on user responses to questions so there's no set time for each one to run. We can't and don't expect users to be online at specific times. It's not like the Album of the Week where the clue is in the name as to when each thread should appear. Sure people have questioned how long some threads stay open but I don't think there has been any outright complaints.

The bottom line is that all of the above threads are there to provoke discussion. Without discussion a forum is dead.

few wrote:

Is "Rock & Metal" musical genre?

It's two related genres isn't it?

blastman

few wrote: »

People created their own forum and just having fun there - there is no problem at all.
That's what I think.

That's part of the problem, though, IMO, as it appears this forum was created largely at the behest of one mod. It's not that there loads of people crying out for it. That's just my reading of it, though, maybe I'm wrong.

Cill94

few wrote: »

Is "Rock & Metal" musical genre?

As Lemmy says: "It's all rock 'n roll". In my experience trying to establish a divide between the two only leads to confusion and arguments.

few wrote: »

People created their own forum and just having fun there - there is no problem at all.

There are a few problems I can see:

1. This opens the door to more sub forums of rock & metal being created
2. It could diminish the already small numbers of posters in R&M (compared to other forums)
3. Confusion over whether to post about bands like AC/DC, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath etc. in the Classic Rock forum or in R&M

I just think that there would be a stronger sense of community and better discussion if there was one forum for everything rock/metal related.

Morag

I don't post in R&M I read it on occasion when looking for info but I don't post there,
it just doesn't appeal but so far the Classic Rock forum does.

As for what makes something classic rock instead of rock/metal it's a bit like the difference between art and porn, you know the difference when you hear it.

GLaDOS

Sharrow wrote: »

As for what makes something classic rock instead of rock/metal it's a bit like the difference between art and porn, you know the difference when you hear it.

Classic rock is rock, there's no either/or. Even now there are identical threads about the upcoming Led Zeppelin cinema release.

Morag

And?
There are often threads about the same things in different forum were the discussion is different due to the different communities.

GLaDOS

In this case it looks like an unnecessary redundancy

Max Power1

Sharrow wrote: »

As for what makes something classic rock instead of rock/metal it's a bit like the difference between art and porn, you know the difference when you hear it.

What are the likes of Motley Crue then?
Artistic Porn following your analogy. They are classic rock because its been nearly 30 years since their release, and also are to be found in the R&M forum.

Its like giving bill gates a free million dollars. Its nice but totally unneeded and redundant.

mitosis

blastman wrote: »

I've already had a moan in the CR forum, as I just noticed it now, but I'm with Malice on this one. Personally I think this will just take traffic from an existing, well-modded forum. I've started threads in Rock & Metal on bands like Marillion and Jason & The Scorchers and found that there were actually other people out there who liked them too. Neither could be considered metal bands, but I didn't get attacked or ridiculed for mentioning them on a "metal" forum (unlike what happens when I mention them in real life, apparently the people I know have no taste in music!).

Classic Rock is a magazine and should stay as such. It's certainly not a genre, IMO.

Mayhap it will, but it also brings new voices to the fold - mine for one.

Mr. CooL ICE

mitosis wrote: »

Mayhap it will, but it also brings new voices to the fold - mine for one.

If that's the case, why didn't you post in R&M before?

mitosis

LordChessington wrote: »

If that's the case, why didn't you post in R&M before?

I'm not entirely sure, but it always seemed more metal than rock to me and not to my tastes. I like a particular type of music and with the CR forum I can read and exchange with others about it without having to search for it.

I am curious to know why anyone takes umbrage at the existence of the CR forum - if it is taking business from another forum then the other forum should perhaps ask why? But at the end of the day they are all sub fora of a bigger discussion subject, so perhaps that ought to be where the numbers are assessed.

Yitzhak Rabin

Honestly, who gives a swinging mickey if there is an extra forum created. So what if there is crossover between the two?

No one gives a hoot that humanities and anthropology, sociology and culture are almost the same thing.

The people whinging smacks of being afraid that their personal fiefdom might be usurped by a new popular forum.

People need to just get on with life and not stress themselves out over these little things.

blastman

Aren't opinions what discussion boards thrive on? I think I read that somewhere, can't quite remember where...

Funny how whingers are almost always those with a different opinion to your own.

GLaDOS

yekahS wrote: »

Honestly, who gives a swinging mickey if there is an extra forum created. So what if there is crossover between the two?

No one gives a hoot that humanities and anthropology, sociology and culture are almost the same thing.

The people whinging smacks of being afraid that their personal fiefdom might be usurped by a new popular forum.

People need to just get on with life and not stress themselves out over these little things.

Nobody is particularly upset, it's just odd that they suddenly granted the request with no active thread about it. I've seen some good original ideas for fora shot down, yet this one is suddenly granted out of the blue? This thread is trying to answer why that happened.

Yitzhak Rabin

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Nobody is particularly upset, it's just odd that they suddenly granted the request with no active thread about it. I've seen some good original ideas for fora shot down, yet this one is suddenly granted out of the blue? This thread is trying to answer why that happened.

LoLth answered that here I think?

But I suppose fair enough, maybe people are a little annoyed that this didn't go down the appropriate channels, but to be honest, not sure why anyone is really that bothered. The forum seems to fit into a nice little niche, and is full of posters that don't seem to post in R&M.

Mr. CooL ICE

yekahS, my main problem with it being created is because it's creation didn't follow the usual procedure, but actually went against it. From how CR was created, it seems like any mod who annoys admins enough will get what they want regardless of the general consensus.

Malice pointed out in the OP that despite him being the CMod of Music, he wasn't asked or consulted about it's creation. Also, the forum request was put forward and rejected 3 times. It doesn't make any sense nor does it seem fair that a moderator who doesn't mod anything in a certain category can get a forum created without consideration for the above.

mitosis

So are you suggesting the creation of CR was as a vanity forum for someone who campaigned for its inception?

P. Breathnach

mitosis wrote: »

So are you suggesting the creation of CR was as a vanity forum for the mod who campaigned for its inception?

The cursor hovered over the "report post" symbol before I decided to put my reaction before everybody (well, everybody who cares to follow this debate).

LordChessington said nothing that could reasonably be interpreted in that way, and your question, if entertained, would lead to a discussion on a matter of principle being converted into discussion of individual members of boards.

Boards has set up various procedures for dealing with things. If those procedures are not followed, it makes a nonsense of the idea that boards is run in an accessible and transparent way. There is a perception created of "insiders" being treated differently.

mitosis

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The cursor hovered over the "report post" symbol before I decided to put my reaction before everybody (well, everybody who cares to follow this debate).

LordChessington said nothing that could reasonably be interpreted in that way, and your question, if entertained, would lead to a discussion on a matter of principle being converted into discussion of individual members of boards.

Boards has set up various procedures for dealing with things. If those procedures are not followed, it makes a nonsense of the idea that boards is run in an accessible and transparent way. There is a perception created of "insiders" being treated differently.

So maybe I misinterpreted this?

From how CR was created, it seems like any mod who annoys admins enough will get what they want regardless of the general consensus.

P. Breathnach

mitosis wrote: »

So maybe I misinterpreted this?

Yes.

You made it personal by describing it as a vanity forum for a particular mod.

anncoates

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Nobody is particularly upset,

lol

Morag

LordChessington wrote: »

Malice pointed out in the OP that despite him being the CMod of Music, he wasn't asked or consulted about it's creation.

Do catmod have to be consulted?

Liam McPoyle

I would have thought that it would just be courtesy (for want of a better term) that cmod`s input would be requested for any new forum created under a given category as any additional forums may create additional work like with potential DRP threads.

I have no issue,not that it matters a hoot if I did anyway,with a separate CR forum but I think the way it's been set up has been fundamentally flawed which Im guessing is what Malice`s bone of contention is.

LoLth

The Classic Rock forum has been talked about for a very long time on boards, and there were many arguments pro and con. It has nearly always a 50-50 decision that very marginally went the other way for years, but with the growth of the site the admins recently made a decision to review the previous decision. PMs were sent out requesting feedback on the idea and, once taken into account the admins decided that on balance, there could well be an audience for a classic rock forum.


We understand that some users, mods and Cmods don't agree with the decision to create the forum, but the decision was taken in light of all arguments for and against creation and like many decisions on large community sites there will always be someone who disagrees with it - as is their right. We stand by the decision to create the forum.

As for concerns raised over teh classic rock forum killing the Rock and Metal forum:

some quick stats courtesy of the boards.ie staff:
The classic Rock forum was created on the 25th of August:

Stats for the Rock and Metal forum for the year leading up to the 25/08/12

Threads in year preceding the 25th of August: 497, for an average of 1.36 threads/day
Posts in the year preceding the 25th of August: 17,561 for an average of 48.11 posts/day

Since the creation of the classic Rock forum:

Threads: 50 for an average of 1.61 threads/day
Posts: 1,390 for an average of 44.83 posts/day

obviously a longer run will give more telling data but from the month so far new threads in Rock and Metal have gone UP on average and there has only been a slight dip in post counts not all of which could be attributed to the classic rock forum.

for completion's sake some stats on the classic rock forum in its first month of operation:

38 threads (1.26 threads/day)
552 posts (18.4 posts/day)

these stats will be reviewed nearer to the end of the 6 month probationary period but for now, its looking like two quite viable communities that may actually increase each other's traffic in the future.

WindSock

I don't see why there is so much beef over the creation of this forum in particular. It seems that there is an annoyance that dr.bollocko requested it iniatially years ago and now suddenly the forum has appeared, which has posters thinking dr.bollocko somehow used his 'clout' as a CMod to pull strings. Is that it?

If it was just a regular user that initially requested the forum, would there be so much resistance now? I doubt it.
The creation or rejection of forums doesn't seem to come down to naysayers in the community as it is. For instance, I requested Relationships and Dieting as separate forums ages ago, and Relationships again, both rejected at the time and both approved at a later date. There were no complaints or issues when they both appeared.
I am sure there are more examples of this happening with the creation of new forums, why there is still massive resistance to this one in particular, I don't know.

big b

The Doc fought for a long time to get this forum started, & I and others were there to back him all the way.

Now that it's here, I like it a lot.
If I click on the forum front page, I'll have some interest in almost every thread. On the R & M forum, that wasn't the case.

So, I think it's great that we have it. But since the OP seems to be questioning the way it was introduced more than the fact that it was, maybe I'll just leave this to others.

Where To

I'm very pleased to see a classic rock forum on boards. At last somewhere to post Calypso by John Denver.

GAAman

I have to say I am on the side of Classic Rock and have been since the doc started his campaign for it aeons ago. I can not understand why there is such a problem with it.

Another poster said on this thread that the people posting in CR were not regular posters in Rock and Metal, well I know I only have 1 or 2 posts in CR but I can say for myself why that is. I rarely if ever posted in R+M because when I was on that forum to be honest I found very few threads that held my interest there.

Now we have a Classic Rock forum which is so up my street it could be named "gaaman road" and I have really enjoyed reading the posts, and yeah I only have a couple of posts on it but I was always more of a lurker anyway :pac: