I received a letter this evening...

Dont be at yourself

...from the Management Agency of my apartment.



No idea what's it about really. I've paid my rent on-time as usual, and hadn't heard a sniff from anybody about my parking spots until now. The girlfriend's out of the country with the only key to her car, so no chance of it being moved. Of course, neither the landlord or management agency are contactable at this hour.

Anyway, I printed out my own little letter, which I stuck in the window of mine and my girlfriend's cars.





Hopefully tomorrow I can post some pictures of my new clamps!

Silverfish

What's to stop them removing your letter from the windows and saying they didn't see them?

That's a very odd letter, I'd be furious if I got that with no explanation.

Jimbob 83

That's shocking, only in Ireland is common sense totally ignored like this

Doop

My first question would be are 100% sure you have an assigned space with your apartment? or did the landlord say 'oh just use the visitors spaces'.

You may pay your rent on time but thats between you and the landlord. The parking issue is between your landlord and the management company. Your first port of call should be the landlord.

MagicMarker

Just take the wheels of your car. Sorted.

Welease

You seem to be going out of your way to make life more difficult for yourself..

Your response in the window of the car doesn't mean jack.. You don't own the parking spot, so you are not in a position to decide if/when contractual obligations apply to you..

I'd suggest contacting the complex owner and your landlord to see where the issue lies, it sounds as though your landlord has not been paying the management fees.. It's not your fault, but that doesn't mean you can ignore the issue or start cutting clamps if you do, the likelyhood is that you will end up paying the cost of replacement..

Anan1

Get on to your landlord straight away, my guess is that they haven't paid the service charge. If that is the case then your landlord is responsible for any declamp fees and associated costs incurred by you. And lose the note, it's a bit silly.

Drummerboy08

Knowing most management companies, they're as useful as a condom with sweatholes.

I wouldn't hesitate to remove the clamp and then bill the management company for the inconvenience.

Dont be at yourself

Silverfish wrote: »

What's to stop them removing your letter from the windows and saying they didn't see them?

On the case of my car, a pane of glass. On the case of girlfriend's, photographic evidence, and a security camera.

That's a very odd letter, I'd be furious if I got that with no explanation.

Well, that's it. A little bit of manners goes a long way -- if there's a legitimate dispute between the landlord and the management agency, I'm more than happy to talk to them about it.

awec

This post has been deleted.

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Knowing most management companies, they're as useful as a condom with sweatholes.

I wouldn't hesitate to remove the clamp and then bill the management company for the inconvenience.

Why not offer to wash the landlords car too, while doing his other dirty work for him?

Dubwat

Maybe your landlord hasn't paid the management fees and they're upping the pressure on him to pay by involving you?

In fairness, they should give you a week's notice or something to get your car(s) out...

mathepac

The letter you posted in your own window is hilarious.

At a guess I'd say either you are parked in the wrong place or your landlord is behind in his management fees (see Coill Tire, Doughiska thread).

In any case as already noted, you have no input to or control over the managing agent's actions nor over those of the management company, only your landlord has. Get him on the phone ASAP. ere yo allocated a parking space in your lease? If not ask him what he palns to do.

Drummerboy08

Anan1 wrote: »

Why not offer to wash the landlords car too, while doing his other dirty work for him?

It's not about doing the landlords job, it's about ensuring I'm free to use my own property, in this case a car.

In my opinion, anyone who clamps my car on behalf of a privately owned company not backed by law is in breach of s13 of the road traffic act, regardless of my actions leading up to the event.

The landlord may not be to blame here either, lots been well known for management companies to authorize clamping without any wrong doing on behalf of the landlord, remember my own case?

mathepac

awec wrote: »

He can remove any clamps that are fixed to his vehicle by companies not backed by law (i.e. non-council/local authority clamps) so long as he doesn't damage the clamp. ...

As it appears he is parked on private property that is incorrect.

Welease

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Well, that's it. A little bit of manners goes a long way -- if there's a legitimate dispute between the landlord and the management agency, I'm more than happy to talk to them about it.

I don't have much time for management companies.. but I would imagine they have been talking to your landlord who their contract is with, and it sounds like they have decided that enough is enough (large assumptions here as we have no idea why the letter was issued).. Their contract is not with you, so while it would be nice for you to have been given more notice they are somewhat limited to what contractual information they can just distribute (even though you live there).
If the parking spaces are part of your contract with the landlord, then I would suggest contacting PRTB if an immediate resolution is not made available..

(Your situation sucks.. so i am not making light of it.. but declaring rules of war will likely end you paying out unnecessary money in recompense for your actions:))

Drummerboy08

mathepac wrote: »

As it appears he is parked on private property that is incorrect.

Can you show me the relevant legislation that shows you are correct?

Uriel.

Is a parking space specified in your lease?

The management company are using you as cannon fodder against your landlord.

Management company are being d1cks to you. That kinda display is why management companies are held in such contempt here.

They could have contact you in person explain the situation and let you know that they'd have to do this in 2 weeks time. If i got that in the post out of the blue I'd go out of my way to make life difficult for then

That said, legally you probably don't have a lot on your side on respect of the management company

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

It's not about doing the landlords job, it's about ensuring I'm free to use my own property, in this case a car.

In my opinion, anyone who clamps my car on behalf of a privately owned company not backed by law is in breach of s13 of the road traffic act, regardless of my actions leading up to the event.

The landlord may not be to blame here either, lots been well known for management companies to authorize clamping without any wrong doing on behalf of the landlord, remember my own case?

The OP pays the landlord, and not the management company, for the free use of that space. As the letter says, the OP needs to contact the landlord. The management company cannot discuss the financial affairs of a member with an outsider.

Welease

awec wrote: »

He can remove any clamps that are fixed to his vehicle by companies not backed by law (i.e. non-council/local authority clamps) so long as he doesn't damage the clamp..

He can.. But as per my point, he cannot contractually decide that he now owns the clamp and can damage it at will during removal which is what his letter states etc.

awec wrote: »

However, first port of call is the landlord.

Agreed.. It's a pain in the ass especially if the landlord is not paying the bills.. If thats the case, then contacting PRTB would be an option also.

Drummerboy08

Anan1 wrote: »

The OP pays the landlord, and not the management company, for the free use of that space. As the letter says, the OP needs to contact the landlord.

Absolutely, agreed.

But in the meantime if I was clamped, it would be coming off fairly rapid.

awec

This post has been deleted.

Uriel.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

mathepac wrote: »

As it appears he is parked on private property that is incorrect.

Can you show me the relevant legislation that shows you are correct?

It won't be in legislation.

The deeds to the land will show the management company as the owner. The long-tern lease agreement between the landlord and the company will specify terms and conditions.

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Absolutely, agreed.

But in the meantime if I was clamped, it would be coming off fairly rapid.

Fortunately there's no clamp as yet. Unless the landlord was my special friend I wouldn't be absolving them of the obligation to provide me with unhindered use of the space I pay them for. Sounds to me like the landlord is taking the p1ss out of the OP and the MC are just doing their job.

Welease

awec wrote: »

And the OP should.

But at the same time, the OP should not pay out money to clampers.

If they do clamp the car, remove it and give it back to them undamaged.

And if the management company decide to have the offending car removed as a result of the actions? It is private property that the car is parked on.

I know you are not making rash claims here, and your advice is sound.. I would however stop short of removing clamps in the short term as it could escalate the issue to the next level unnecessarily.. The OP should contact the Management Agency in the morning to alert them to the issue and that they are chasing the landlord for a speedy resolution. If the MC don't agree to a stay of execution then I would look to park elsewhere for a few days.. because someone in that office may just decide to go one step further (via removal), and at the end of the day.. what was gained?..

Anyway.. best of luck with the issue.

Drummerboy08

Uriel. wrote: »

It won't be in legislation.

The deeds to the land will show the management company as the owner. The long-tern lease agreement between the landlord and the company will specify terms and conditions.

Between the landlord and management company, yes. Not between the management company and the tenant. Much of civil law is based on what is fair and reasonable but I would not consider holding an innocent third party to ransom to resolve a matter neither fair nor reasonable.

Anan1 wrote: »

Fortunately there's no clamp as yet. Unless the landlord was my special friend I wouldn't be absolving them of the obligation to provide me with unhindered use of the space I pay them for.

Again, agreed. However if a situation arose where I needed to use my car and I was being prevented to do so by the management company or an agent acting on its behalf, I would use whatever means necessary to remove it to allow me on my way.

Welease

Welease wrote: »

And if the management company decide to have the offending car removed as a result of the actions? It is private property that the car is parked on.

Legally, they wouldn't be able to do that without the involvement of the Gardaí, and they won't get involved as it is a civil matter.

If they were allowed to remove cars when they want, then whats stopping all the private car parks in the country just removing cars when they want?

Kenny Logins

Have you called your landlord?

awec

This post has been deleted.

Welease

awec wrote: »

"Hello Mr Garda, I'd like to report the theft of a motor vehicle".

Ring Garda in advance to request removal.. If its a civil matter then explain you will be having it removed into storage.

Car wasn't stolen.. It was abandoned on private property and removed into storage by the property owner.

You can pay the release fee or pay a lawyer to argue the case..

listermint

Anan1 wrote: »

The OP pays the landlord, and not the management company, for the free use of that space. As the letter says, the OP needs to contact the landlord. The management company cannot discuss the financial affairs of a member with an outsider.

Okay il take you to task on this, the management company cannot discuss the financial affairs of a member with an outside but they can choose to clamp an 'outsider' the same outsider that is fully paid up.

The way in which they have gone about this is typical of the excuse my french S^&%E that goes on in this country with unregulated cowboys going around 'managing' developments. It is a disgrace in this country that we cant emulate the continental rental market which has been in place for decades yet we still allow any edgit start up a management company and control developments with questionable directors and using clamping as a smash and grab tool to get what they want. Mean while its normal renters caught in the middle with little or nothing to do with the whats going on and having no say what so ever.


explain Anan how this situation is okay ?

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Again, agreed. However if a situation arose where I needed to use my car and I was being prevented to do so by the management company or an agent acting on its behalf, I would use whatever means necessary to remove it to allow me on my way.

I hear you, but it's the landlord, not the MC, who's preventing you from using your car. Why should you adopt someone else's problem? Pay the clampers, take the money out of the rent. Taking clamps off yourself is just incentivising the landlord to do nothing.

Drummerboy08

Welease wrote: »

Car wasn't stolen.. It was dumped on private property and removed into storage by the property owner.

You can pay the release fee or pay a lawyer to argue the case..

Unfortunately not, because you'll have a lease agreement that states you can park your car in an allocated space.

Besides, as an owner of a commercial property such as this, you don't have the right to remove a car in a situation similar to above. You would be receiving a visit from the local Gardai very quickly.

Again, this all revolves around a dispute between a management company and a landlord, with you as the third party. You should not be dragged into this dispute.

Anan1

listermint wrote: »

Okay il take you to task on this, the management company cannot discuss the financial affairs of a member with an outside but they can choose to clamp an 'outsider' the same outsider that is fully paid up.

The way in which they have gone about this is typical of the excuse my french S^&%E that goes on in this country with unregulated cowboys going around 'managing' developments. It is a disgrace in this country that we cant emulate the continental rental market which has been in place for decades yet we still allow any edgit start up a management company and control developments with questionable directors and using clamping as a smash and grab tool to get what they want. Mean while its normal renters caught in the middle with little or nothing to do with the whats going on and having no say what so ever.


explain Anan how this situation is okay ?

It's not OK at all. That space belongs to the MC, who effectively rent it to the landlord, who then rents it to the OP. If the landlord takes the OP's rent but then doesn't pay the MC then they're effectively stealing from the OP. Blaming the MC is a complete red herring, the OP's contract is with the landlord.

Drummerboy08

Anan1 wrote: »

I hear you, but it's the landlord, not the MC, who's preventing you from using your car. Why should you adopt someone else's problem? Pay the clampers, take the money out of the rent. Taking clamps off yourself is just incentivising the landlord to do nothing.

It is the MC who authorise the clamping of your vehicle, not the landlord - granted it may be the actions of the landlord that brings the situation around.

By not paying the full amount of rent you are in breach of your contract with your landlord, thus risking the very real threat of being turfed out.

I'd rather take my chances with an unregulated, private company that is not backed by any legislation currently, and that has interfered with my property without permission or any reasonable cause.

Colonel Sanders

Where is the OP based?

I smell a flash mob declaiming!!!

listermint

Anan1 wrote: »

It's not OK at all. That space belongs to the MC, who effectively rent it to the landlord, who then rents it to the OP. If the landlord takes the OP's rent but then doesn't pay the MC then they're effectively stealing from the OP. Blaming the MC is a complete red herring, the OP's contract is with the landlord.

The funny part is you have no clue what is going on this case, your speculating as am i. Also whenever we have these discussions in the past Anan you seem to have an unbreakable faith in 'the system' to sort itself out. When the fact is that legislation in this country is sparse at best to night on hilariously non existent in respect to how properties are managed and how the MCs are elected in the first place.

Im tired of your continued line that the MC are always in the right when its quite clear that many times this is not the case.

Id respect your opinions on this more if you admitted they grey area that exists in the middle. But to date i havent seen you do that.

Welease

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Unfortunately not, because you'll have a lease agreement that states you can park your car in an allocated space.

And the Management Company would have a contract that states parking is available upon payment of fees.. It sounds like those fees have not been paid, so the landlord is in no position to override that agreement with his own.. He has no parking spaces to offer until payment is made..

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Besides, as an owner of a commercial property such as this, you don't have the right to remove a car in a situation similar to above. You would be receiving a visit from the local Gardai very quickly..

If you ring the Garda to request removal of the car, and they can't/won't interfere.. I imagine there would be little issue with paying a private company to have it removed and stored and argue the case via the civil courts.. From a MC company perspective, it is probably worth doing otherwise word gets out the 2 fingers to the MC is acceptable and everyone else stops paying..
So at cost.. what does the OP achieve by this stance?

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Again, this all revolves around a dispute between a management company and a landlord, with you as the third party. You should not be dragged into this dispute.

It's irrelevant.. It sucks... but irrelevant.. As Billy Bragg once sang.. "This isn't a court of justice son.. this is a court of law".. The contract for parking would depend on payment of relevant fees.. those fees are not being paid (that is.. if this is the actual case as noone knows yet).

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

It is the MC who authorise the clamping of your vehicle, not the landlord - granted it may be the actions of the landlord that brings the situation around.

The MC did give warning - clearly, the intent is to deny the use of the space, rather than to clamp.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

By not paying the full amount of rent you are in breach of your contract with your landlord, thus risking the very real threat of being turfed out.

If you have it in your contract that you're paying for a parking space and you have a letter from the MC saying that you can't use it then i'd say you're on pretty solid ground legally.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I'd rather take my chances with an unregulated, private company that is not backed by any legislation currently, and that has interfered with my property without permission or any reasonable cause.

I see your point, but there's no need to go fighting the landlord's battles for them. A quick call telling them that you'll be withholding all declamp fees /alternative parking costs/whatever from the rent and they'll pay up. To use my dad's expression, why bother climbing over a wall you can walk around.

goz83

Why does your girlfriend have her car key abroad? Sounds a bit silly.

Anan1

listermint wrote: »

The funny part is you have no clue what is going on this case, your speculating as am i.

Quite true.

listermint wrote: »

Also whenever we have these discussions in the past Anan you seem to have an unbreakable faith in 'the system' to sort itself out.

I have very little faith in 'the system', which is why my advice is to give the landlord a financial imperative to sort this out.

listermint wrote: »

When the fact is that legislation in this country is sparse at best to night on hilariously non existent in respect to how properties are managed and how the MCs are elected in the first place.

Not the OP's problem, their contract is with the landlord.

listermint wrote: »

Im tired of your continued line that the MC are always in the right when its quite clear that many times this is not the case.

Id respect your opinions on this more if you admitted they grey area that exists in the middle. But to date i havent seen you do that.

In this case I don't know or care whether the MC is right or wrong, and nor should the OP. Their contract is with the landlord.

Drummerboy08

Welease wrote: »

And the Management Company would have a contract that states parking is available upon payment of fees.. It sounds like those fees have not been paid, so the landlord is in no position to override that agreement with his own.. He has no parking spaces to offer until payment is made..

The parking wouldnt be available upon payment of management fees - they would be included in the cost of the actual purchase of the property. The management fees have nothing to do with parking spaces, rather they are there for the general running and upkeep of the property and it's surroundings.

If you ring the Garda to request removal of the car, and they can't/won't interfere.. I imagine there would be little issue with paying a private company to have it removed and stored and argue the case via the civil courts.. From a MC company perspective, it is probably worth doing otherwise word gets out the 2 fingers to the MC is acceptable and everyone else stops paying..
So at cost.. what does the OP achieve by this stance?

Can you show me any legislation that shows a private company could remove a car in this instance?

The Gardai would not get involved if you, as the private company, contacted them requesting them to remove the car. However, I would imagine they would be involved very quickly if you actually removed the car on your own accord. This would be theft in my opinion.

It's irrelevant.. It sucks... but irrelevant.. As Billy Bragg once sang.. "This isn't a court of justice son.. this is a court of law".. The contract for parking would depend on payment of relevant fees.. those fees are not being paid (that is.. if this is the actual case as noone knows yet).

As outlined above, the management fees do not have anything to do with parking. Management companies simply use the withdrawal of Parking permits as a stick to beat landlords with.

Anan1 wrote: »

The MC did give warning - clearly, the intent is to deny the use of the space, rather than to clamp.

Agreed, the MC are giving warning, however with little or no notice. Therefore, it would be very difficult for the tenant to find an alternative arrangement with his/her landlord for parking without actually having a car clamped.

A week/10 days notice would at least be fair.

If you have it in your contract that you're paying for a parking space and you have a letter from the MC saying that you can't use it then i'd say you're on pretty solid ground legally.

Possibly so, however without incurring the cost of a solicitor to advise you of the legal situation here and then waiting for months to get that cost back from your landlord, I wouldnt run that risk.

I see your point, but there's no need to go fighting the landlord's battles for them. A quick call telling them that you'll be withholding all declamp fees /alternative parking costs/whatever from the rent and they'll pay up. To use my dad's expression, why bother climbing over a wall you can walk around.

Once again, agreed - in some cases. Not all landlords will be as forgiving and reasonable as the above, and many will see it as a breach of contract thus leaving your good self in the cold!

I suppose my point here is that it is unfair and unreasonable for the MC to use a third party (i.e. the tenant) to resolve an issue that does not involve the tenant.

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I suppose my point here is that it is unfair and unreasonable for the MC to use a third party (i.e. the tenant) to resolve an issue that does not involve the tenant.

If I sold you a car with finance owing and the finance company repossessed the car would you blame me or the finance house?

Drummerboy08

Anan1 wrote: »

If I sold you a car with finance owing and the finance company repossessed the car would you blame me or the finance house?

Good comparision.

Given my experience of that particular issue, I would blame both parties. The seller for failing to check the car was clear of finance, and the finance company for failing to keep a track of their goods. Both would have a responsibility.

Welease

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The parking wouldnt be available upon payment of management fees - they would be included in the cost of the actual purchase of the property. The management fees have nothing to do with parking spaces, rather they are there for the general running and upkeep of the property and it's surroundings.

If that were the case then why would parking rights be revoked? There appears to be some contractual obligation which has been broken.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Can you show me any legislation that shows a private company could remove a car in this instance?

Conversely, can you show me any legislation which says you can park cars on private property irrespective of being formally requested not to do so? It's a pointless discussion..
The point being made was.. they physically can.. then the OP would have to pay to partake in the legal discussion which would cost them.. They have been requested not to park there, if they continue to do so they leave themselves open to either removal (and a legal battle) or a direct legal battle.. All costly and all pointless..
They need to work this through the landlord and failing that PTRB.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The Gardai would not get involved if you, as the private company, contacted them requesting them to remove the car. However, I would imagine they would be involved very quickly if you actually removed the car on your own accord. This would be theft in my opinion.

Agreed.. your opinion.. as much as mine is just opinion.. and thats my point.. little exists in legislation to cover this.. and therefore if the MC decided, they could choose to go down a costly route which at the end of the day solves little for the OP but could cost them a wad of cash.. Whats the point?

Direct consultation with landlord and MC and failing that PTRB is the path which is likely to lead to the best solution..

Anan1

I'll be interested to hear an update on the conversation between the OP and the landlord.

0ph0rce0

His & Hers Cars, Very L.A

Yes i am aware they are not the same, they do look similar though :P

Drummerboy08

Welease wrote: »

If that were the case then why would parking rights be revoked? There appears to be some contractual obligation which has been broken.

As I have mentioned in a previous post, MC's are using the removal of parking permits as a stick to beat landlords into paying management fees.

Conversely, can you show me any legislation which says you can park cars on private property irrespective of being formally requested not to do so? It's a pointless discussion..
The point being made was.. they physically can.. then the OP would have to pay to partake in the legal discussion which would cost them.. They have been requested not to park there, if they continue to do so they leave themselves open to either removal (and a legal battle) or a direct legal battle.. All costly and all pointless..
They need to work this through the landlord and failing that PTRB.

The lease I have signed with my landlord says I can park there. There are no other conditions that say permission to park on that property could be revoked without any notice other than breach of that contract.

I would like to see a management company bring a legal action against me for ignoring their unfair request to park on private property (not property that belongs to the management company BTW).

Agreed.. your opinion.. as much as mine is just opinion.. and thats my point.. little exists in legislation to cover this.. and therefore if the MC decided, they could choose to go down a costly route which at the end of the day solves little for the OP but could cost them a wad of cash.. Whats the point?

Direct consultation with landlord and MC and failing that PTRB is the path which is likely to lead to the best solution..

You are correct, there is little legislation covering private clamping, however there is plenty of legislation covering the removal of a vehicle -
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0112.html#sec112

Tell me, what lawful authority would give permission to remove the vehicle in this case?

I do agree with you, talking to your landlord is the best way out of this.

jack presley

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

His & Hers Cars, Very L.A

Yes i am aware they are not the same, they do look similar though :P

Hers and hers?

0ph0rce0

jack presley wrote: »

Hers and hers?

Check the EDIT :cool:

jack presley

You should have left it at hers and hers if that's what it originally was. Definitely 2 chick cars there.