Training sessions for Cross Country

pconn062

NiallG4 wrote: »

Are you preparing to stop our attempt on 2 in a row. We will be weakened badly this year as 4 of our 6 scorers from last year are doing the marathon 6 days prior to the Senior CC.

Damn right we are! Good to see you getting your excuses in early though.

NiallG4

pconn062 wrote: »

Damn right we are! Good to see you getting your excuses in early though.

That's the reality but I still think we will have enough to sort you track fairies out. Hopefully it is a nice mucky day and your illuminous spikes get dirty and you get muck on your running sun glasses.

ThePiedPiper

We're not all track fairies Niall! How's Frankfurt training coming along for you?

pistol_75

Star of the Sea XC on 28th September for anyone looking for some early season action.

NiallG4

RunForestRun wrote: »

We're not all track fairies Niall! How's Frankfurt training coming along for you?

Going just ok. Missed a lot of training in the past few weeks so hoping this week to put in a few good sessions. I am still considering Dublin as an alternative to Frankfurt but definitely doing one of them. Ran the Monaghan 10 miler on Sunday. It is a hilly wee course and wind and rain added to it nicely but I badly needed a blow out to kick start training. Next target is Athlone half. Did a good 10 mile fartlek on grass last night so I should be coming into good shape for Athlone. I think I peaked too soon for my last marathon so doing a shorter build up this time (12 weeks). I was disappointed with Monaghan run but have to accept it as I want to be peaking in October. I fully accept you are not categorized as a track fairy unlike your mate who will be gulping for air in Oldbridge from 6K onwards. His 6 x 200M sessions should help him for the last 2 hills though.

pconn062

NiallG4 wrote: »

That's the reality but I still think we will have enough to sort you track fairies out. Hopefully it is a nice mucky day and your illuminous spikes get dirty and you get muck on your running sun glasses.

You might remember that one of our track fairies won the race last year.

pconn062

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Nothing prepares you for XC :eek:

At the club, we stick to a very similar schedule for the Cross Country. The track sessions on Tuesday have longer repeats and shorter recovery with a little more volume too. Tempo run on Thursday is the same (3 X 8/9/10 mins) and then on the Saturday morning of course, its the muddy hills of the Military Fort in Phoenix Park. That's where the specific stuff comes in. This year i think I'll try a few more longer tempo runs on grass (4-6 miles) because I think this works better for me than the mile repeats. I certainly find it more difficult anyway.

I think that's the gospel right there. For a 6k race you could get away with reps on the track with some tempo or fartlek on the grass but for a 10k cross country I think you need those longer sessions over cross country-like terrain, for mental preparation more than anything.

I remember last year running out session cross country race (10k), usually in a 10k race you are ok for 8k and then suffering for the last 2k. Well in this race I was ok for 2k and then suffered like a dog for 8k!! :pac:

pconn062

So I thought we could maybe use this as at the main cross country thread for the next while anyway. Anyone getting ready for the cross season, how is the training going? Are you still in base phase or have you started sessions yet? When is the first race? In Louth where I am, our county cross country season is really early, the novice and intermediate are on the first two weeks of October and the senior is the 2nd of November so we haven't that long to get into good shape. I know other counties are a a bit later though.

ecoli

pconn062 wrote: »

So I thought we could maybe use this as at the main cross country thread for the next while anyway. Anyone getting ready for the cross season, how is the training going? Are you still in base phase or have you started sessions yet? When is the first race? In Louth where I am, our county cross country season is really early, the novice and intermediate are on the first two weeks of October and the senior is the 2nd of November so we haven't that long to get into good shape. I know other counties are a a bit later though.

Dublin Novice is also the first week in Oct

Running it myself with the first session on grass lined up for tomorrow (1km reps on an undulating course yum!)

pconn062

ecoli wrote: »

Dublin Novice is also the first week in Oct

Running it myself with the first session on grass lined up for tomorrow (1km reps on an undulating course yum!)

Sounds fun, you should be well up in that race I imagine?

ecoli

pconn062 wrote: »

Sounds fun, you should be well up in that race I imagine?

Should be a bit sharper than usual at this stage of the year alright. Dublin Novice usually tends to have some very good quality (in fact it's not uncommon for the novice to be higher quality than intermediates)

All things going well I think top 10 will hopefully be a decent (and realistic target)

Training approach nothing to drastic though with similar sessions to what I am used to but with a few more on the grass instead of track or road

pconn062

ecoli wrote: »

Should be a bit sharper than usual at this stage of the year alright. Dublin Novice usually tends to have some very good quality (in fact it's not uncommon for the novice to be higher quality than intermediates)

All things going well I think top 10 will hopefully be a decent (and realistic target)

Training approach nothing to drastic though with similar sessions to what I am used to but with a few more on the grass instead of track or road

Yeah I think that's the key, treat it like 10k training with just some sessions on the grass. Have a tasty hills/tempo session lined up for tomorrow, 5x1 min uphill/12 min tempo/5x1 min uphill. Dreading it! Having a new coach on board takes some of the pressure off, you don't need to think as much and just trust them and try to follow what's on the plan.

ecoli

pconn062 wrote: »

Yeah I think that's the key, treat it like 10k training with just some sessions on the grass. Have a tasty hills/tempo session lined up for tomorrow, 5x1 min uphill/12 min tempo/5x1 min uphill. Dreading it! Having a new coach on board takes some of the pressure off, you don't need to think as much and just trust them and try to follow what's on the plan.

Any chance the new coach was us collegiate based? Noticed a similar set up in one of your other sessions recently. I think it's a good way to set up a session as it has a form of race simulation (fast start of XC race, long slog and finish hard)

Lock

Last year I did every cross country race going, so much so that I was totally wiped by the time the national novice rolled around in December. I think that was my 10th or 11th race in 13 weeks or something ridiculous like that.

This was in part due to my inability to say no to team managers, and the notion that "Ah I'll be grand". Thankfully I managed to qualify out of all that novice and intermediate sh*te so I have a few free weekends to train through.

My plan is to run Star of the Sea as my September race, Gerry Farnan for October. Then Inter-Counties and National Novice in December. The 10k at inter-counties is what I'm nervous about. I was having a good run last year up until about 7 or 8k then the wheels completely came off and I lost 10 or 15 places.

I'm trying to take a more measured approach this year. I'm doing 2 sessions a week at the minute, and its all longer tempo stuff. I'll struggle at SOS XC and possibly Gerry Farnan but my A goal is the novice so I won't worry about getting on the grass just yet. This time last year I was hammering hills every second day which got me fit very quickly but I'll leave that stuff for another 3 weeks or so I think. Best of luck in the county xc's lads. It really creeps up on you after the summer

pconn062

Lock wrote: »

Last year I did every cross country race going, so much so that I was totally wiped by the time the national novice rolled around in December. I think that was my 10th or 11th race in 13 weeks or something ridiculous like that.

This was in part due to my inability to say no to team managers, and the notion that "Ah I'll be grand". Thankfully I managed to qualify out of all that novice and intermediate sh*te so I have a few free weekends to train through.

My plan is to run Star of the Sea as my September race, Gerry Farnan for October. Then Inter-Counties and National Novice in December. The 10k at inter-counties is what I'm nervous about. I was having a good run last year up until about 7 or 8k then the wheels completely came off and I lost 10 or 15 places.

I'm trying to take a more measured approach this year. I'm doing 2 sessions a week at the minute, and its all longer tempo stuff. I'll struggle at SOS XC and possibly Gerry Farnan but my A goal is the novice so I won't worry about getting on the grass just yet. This time last year I was hammering hills every second day which got me fit very quickly but I'll leave that stuff for another 3 weeks or so I think. Best of luck in the county xc's lads. It really creeps up on you after the summer

Sounds like a great plan man. Totally get where you're coming from with the team thing, can be hard to say no to the club when they're looking to put a team together but sometimes you have to put your own training first. I'm really annoyed as I'm missing SOTS this year, it's always a great race to get started but a friend of mine is organising a road race the evening before so will run that to support him. Good luck with it.

KielyUnusual

Dublin Novice for me too. I'll see you out there ecoli .

Our track is in repair, so all our sessions have been on the grass. Pyramid on the Tuesday (usually 30 minutes hard running in total) Tempo on the Thursday (3 X 10, 4 X 8 or similar) and then hills on the Saturday. We've been mixing it up a bit this year with 5 X 1 mile, 3 X 2 miles or 5 continuous being the sessions. I'm hoping all the running on grass will pay dividends because it was a definite weakness last year.

Question: Does anybody change their running technique for different terrains? I make a lot of contact with the ground when I run. Very loud footfall. I'm thinking less ground contact would be preferable over muddy terrain but I'm wont to intentionally change my stride also. Any personal experience or advise?

Sacksian

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Question: Does anybody change their running technique for different terrains? I make a lot of contact with the ground when I run. Very loud footfall. I'm thinking less ground contact would be preferable over muddy terrain but I'm wont to intentionally change my stride also. Any personal experience or advise?

I enjoy xc a lot (or at least the idea of it) but I'm objectively much worse at it than the track. In terms of technique, one theory I picked up from letsrun is that heavy strikers or power runners (which might be what you're describing) can struggle on muddy courses because they push against it and don't get the same return they would from the track or road - I guess lots of drills and hills should help with a quicker or more forefoot footstrike?

I think of myself as a "rhythm runner" - I can go pretty well once I get into a rhythm but on muddier courses, it feels like I just can't get started.

I do think some people are just (relatively) better at xc but, as long as you're covering all the bases in training, you should generally be in and around the guys you're in and around on the road.

Having said that, I always think the best guys at xc are the ones that can gut everything out, you know the guys that look like they're dying on the first lap of a race and are still carrying the same pained expression at the end but never slow down! Usually, these guys are also aerobic monsters and are thus able to cope better with the all the changes in pace.

I think long fartleks over xc terrain with lots of changes in pace would be a decent start for training.

Ultimately, though, there's something to be said for specificity so it'd be worth keeping in mind what your strengths are and what your ultimate running goals are.

I did find a decent instructional video for good xc technique featuring some dude from ethiopia - last lap of the 2005 long course XC - Kipchoge vs. Bekele. One thing I'd like to work on after seeing this is being able to use my arms more, which I generally don't (I think).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-SHZLPevNg

pconn062

Man, watching that video just reminds you how awesome Bekele was on the country, absolutely unbelievable the strength he had.

Regarding running technique, I'm certainly no expert and I'm actually not a very good cross country runner but on the track (and the road) I would be very high on my toes. However for the cross I find this too tiring and my calves usually complain so I actually have to adopt a more flat footed technique to help me get around. Now compared to others I would still be quite springy but it's definitely something I have to adjust too. The best cross country runners I've seen just glide over the terrain, there is a guy in my club and when you watch him you see everyone else trying to dig their way through this muck while he just floats effortlessly over the top of it.

KielyUnusual

Sacksian wrote: »

I enjoy xc a lot (or at least the idea of it) but I'm objectively much worse at it than the track. In terms of technique, one theory I picked up from letsrun is that heavy strikers or power runners (which might be what you're describing) can struggle on muddy courses because they push against it and don't get the same return they would from the track or road - I guess lots of drills and hills should help with a quicker or more forefoot footstrike?

I think of myself as a "rhythm runner" - I can go pretty well once I get into a rhythm but on muddier courses, it feels like I just can't get started.

I do think some people are just (relatively) better at xc but, as long as you're covering all the bases in training, you should generally be in and around the guys you're in and around on the road.

Having said that, I always think the best guys at xc are the ones that can gut everything out, you know the guys that look like they're dying on the first lap of a race and are still carrying the same pained expression at the end but never slow down! Usually, these guys are also aerobic monsters and are thus able to cope better with the all the changes in pace.

I think long fartleks over xc terrain with lots of changes in pace would be a decent start for training.

Ultimately, though, there's something to be said for specificity so it'd be worth keeping in mind what your strengths are and what your ultimate running goals are.

I did find a decent instructional video for good xc technique featuring some dude from ethiopia - last lap of the 2005 long course XC - Kipchoge vs. Bekele. One thing I'd like to work on after seeing this is being able to use my arms more, which I generally don't (I think).

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. I would also see rhythm as being my strongest running asset. As I tire, I tend to be able to just keep the cadence constant but over a hilly course or tough terrain this isn't really possible.
I'd like to be a better XC runner, so like most things, I think the best approach is to be specific in your training. All my sessions have been over soft, grassy terrain and I'm trying to bring a lot more trail running in to my longer runs and easy runs. We'll see how this goes. The novice will be my first race since we faced off in the 3k at the start of the summer so this could go either way. Toying with entering the Rathfarnam 5k but its my least favourite distance so I reckon I'll opt out in the end.

That Bekele video is amazing. Not the toughest XC course I've ever seen but he just glides over the mucky patches. He doesn't seem to alter his approach at all, just runs straight through.

Sacksian

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I...We'll see how this goes. The novice will be my first race since we faced off in the 3k at the start of the summer so this could go either way. Toying with entering the Rathfarnam 5k but its my least favourite distance so I reckon I'll opt out in the end.

Well, you beat me by about 15 seconds over 3k so you should be at least 30 seconds ahead over 6k!

Ordinarily, I'd just be hoping for some progress on last year, but St Anne's was a very flat, dry course which suited me and I think that was about as good as it gets for me in xc. This year it'll be dry (I'm finding the trails and hills in the park very hard/dry at the moment), but considerably hillier. Top 25 and fourth scorer would be a good day. Can't see the field being much weaker than last year and there are a few guys eligible this year who, if they're running, could make it stronger!

Definitely going to do more xc races over the winter anyway building up to the national novice. It was my favourite race of the year last year (even though I didn't have a good day). The combination of conditions, competition and the insane course last year made it particularly enjoyable - it was like a muddy 800m race over 6k. Would love to get further up the field in that.

Given your speed and endurance, you should love 5ks: fast first mile, wilt a little, wilt a little more, sprint. Even better if you've a bit of company. I've only done Parkruns and Jingle Bells so my experience of 5ks might be coloured a bit by handy courses.

KielyUnusual

Sacksian wrote: »

Given your speed and endurance, you should love 5ks: fast first mile, wilt a little, wilt a little more, sprint. Even better if you've a bit of company. I've only done Parkruns and Jingle Bells so my experience of 5ks might be coloured a bit by handy courses.

Coincidentally, I have only ever run Parkruns and the Jingle Bells also so its not the courses that were tough. I can't quite pick out what it is but there's just something about the distance that doesn't sit right with me. Love 3ks and like 10ks but never really took to the 5ks.

Another question: What kind of sessions are people going to do, to sharpen up before the cross country? We've been doing a lot of longer tempo stuff at the club, which was much needed but I definitely feel I need a little sharpening coming up to the Novice. Haven't run at what I would hope would be my race pace or under in quite a long time.

pconn062

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Coincidentally, I have only ever run Parkruns and the Jingle Bells also so its not the courses that were tough. I can't quite pick out what it is but there's just something about the distance that doesn't sit right with me. Love 3ks and like 10ks but never really took to the 5ks.

Another question: What kind of sessions are people going to do, to sharpen up before the cross country? We've been doing a lot of longer tempo stuff at the club, which was much needed but I definitely feel I need a little sharpening coming up to the Novice. Haven't run at what I would hope would be my race pace or under in quite a long time.

I would suggest some fartlek sessions KU. You could do them on grass and get used to a faster turnover on the uneven surface. Something like 2 mins on/1 off for 20 mins, and do the fast sections at a good clip. You could alter the pace for the fast sections, do some faster that others to replicate the various paces you get in x-country.

ecoli

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Another question: What kind of sessions are people going to do, to sharpen up before the cross country? We've been doing a lot of longer tempo stuff at the club, which was much needed but I definitely feel I need a little sharpening coming up to the Novice. Haven't run at what I would hope would be my race pace or under in quite a long time.

In terms of sessions I have my general outline though the actual specifics haven't been nailed down just yet. Initially I had said to myself just do same approach I had last winter and do a few of the sessions on grass and should be fine (and to be fair this is what I will be doing right up until novices). This comprises of mainly long reps on grass, Short/Long Tempos and Steady mid length runs

Between this and the Intermediates though I may tweak things a small bit with regards some of the tempos just to get a few gear changes

instead of just a straight 5-6 mile tempo I will look to a bit of gear changing by doing something like

1 mile @ 10k effort
2 min rec
4 mile tempo
3 min rec
5x200m @ 3k effort

Also may look to add cut down longer intervals

say instead of 6-8 x1k perhaps doing 4x600, 4x1k, 4x200 etc just etc just to get pace changes going but will be based around the premise that the strength is well and truly there from the build up

As I said this is more spitballing as I have not nailed things down because with the gym work I feel I am not suffering as much in terms of gear changes as I used to but if I am feeling strong but sluggish this may be a way of tackling the issue.

How has people's training been going since many of the contributors here don't have logs or have gone ninja

First session on grass at weekend, tough was an understatement and that was before the underfooting starts to deteriorate as the winter starts to kick in

pconn062

Training has been going well, took a bit of a down week last week in terms of mileage (while keeping the sessions) to try and clear up a slight niggle in my hip, which seems to have worked. Did a bit of a monster session tonight, 1k, 2x(6x400m), 1k. K's were nice and handy at 6 minute pace, then 77/78 pace for the first set of 400's and 76's for the second. Knackered now. Haven't actually done any sessions on the grass yet, but I'm trusting the coach and I think this comes later. Like the idea of those multi-pace sessions ecoli, good to get used to running at different paces as so often happens in x-country races.

KielyUnusual

My top secret ninja training is also going very well :cool: and who knows I might resurrect the log some day but I'm happy enough to sleuth around the other threads for now.

My main worry coming back after the summer off was that I'd have no one to pace with at the club but luckily enough we've a got a group of 5-6 runners all at a similar level so we've been having some great sessions.

After a lot of longer tempo stuff immediately after coming back, the coach seems to be transitioning to some sharper work lately. This week, we did 6 X 800 on the Tuesday and our Saturday session is on the flat instead of the hilly loop in Phoenix Park. Feeling a bit of fatigue this week so might have to take it handy for a few days. Went back in to the 3 sessions a week shortly after a long break so will have to be mindful of not doing too much too soon. Only 2 weeks to go now so not much improvement to be made, just about getting to the start line feeling good and healthy.

Sacksian

Running 6 or 7 days consistently, all of it on grass and trails around the PP. Currently three (sensible) sessions and a very slow long (-ish) run every week and anything else very, very easy - topping out at 40-45 miles. Long run is now up to 12 miles - very slow.

Particularly chuffed to have done my first tempo in a year today, 4 miles on grass, and it went well, so I think if I can avoid succumbing to illness or injury in the next couple of months, I should be in good fettle for the xc season. Unless I've peaked in mid-September...which is entirely possible.

Re: sharpening - I was going to suggest doing 800m reps on the munichs but you seem to have done that! I did it myself this week 6 x 800 off 90s - started off very slowly but worked my way through 5k pace down to faster than my 3k pace on the last one, all controlled. It felt like a sharpening session.

You could also do some 400s on the Munichs - from the tree at the fort through the two dips and a little bit past - 10 off 60s starting at 5k pace and working down after the first 4 or 5. Something relatively light that ends up faster than race pace but staying controlled, I guess.

pconn062

Think I possibly overdid it on the hills on Saturday, seem to have picked up a slight strain in one of my quads. It's not too bad (managed an 11 mile run yesterday) but a little worrying. Took today off and will rest tomorrow too, have physio booked. Not great timing with 5 races in the next 6 weeks, haven't raced since the end of July, itching to get stuck into it. Boo.

KielyUnusual

Well, just one week to go now to the respective county novices so not much more training to go.

While out on the long run today, I was thinking about race tactics. Tradition would dictate that you go out hard, stick with a group and then just hang on for dear life. I really don't think this would suit me though as a serial negative splitter. It would also be nice to have a little more space in the earlier stages when things get very bunched going round tight corners, leading to a lot of deceleration and acceleration.

Has anyone ever tried to start down the field and pick their way through in the later laps? As things are going, its looking like I might be on the 'B' team so it could be an opportunity to try out something tactically a little different.

ecoli

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Well, just one week to go now to the respective county novices so not much more training to go.

While out on the long run today, I was thinking about race tactics. Tradition would dictate that you go out hard, stick with a group and then just hang on for dear life. I really don't think this would suit me though as a serial negative splitter. It would also be nice to have a little more space in the earlier stages when things get very bunched going round tight corners, leading to a lot of deceleration and acceleration.

Has anyone ever tried to start down the field and pick their way through in the later laps? As things are going, its looking like I might be on the 'B' team so it could be an opportunity to try out something tactically a little different.

Would be the same as yourself. Normally I am rarely that fit to be thinking about best tactics to suit and go off conservative enough as a safety precaution because fitness is slightly lacking

That being said I will definitely be working into this one. My endurance is my strength and I know that working too hard to early will be a shock to the system that the body is not used to.

Start is relatively flat so if you are a strength based runner you will take a good few on the rolling hills once the pace settles.

In terms of congestion people always follow the inside line on the rolling hills leaving the other side wide open to avoid congestion without adding any distance really, though I would aim to be free of congestion by the time you reach the forest before the down hill on the loop as tree roots can be risky enough.

Last hard session prior to the Novice today capped off a good week for me, Ideally would be doing Long run tomorrow but I have a 7 am start in work followed by an exam in evening so I will have to push long run to Tuesday with session Thurs (light pace change tune up session)

How everyone else fixed?

ThePiedPiper

I reckon my best ever cross country race came when I had to stop to tie my laces and then fell on my ass a couple minutes later in the first lap of four. The combination, along with a too conservative start left me fuming mad, and I channelled that into a really strong second half of the race. Tactically nonsensical but physchologically I was on the ball on it worked.

I've thrown a few shorter sessions into training for speed development as part of marathon training, so reckon that along with the aerobic base from the long tempo runs should have me in reasonable nick, unfortunately the senior race here in Louth probably a week or two too early after marathon.