Can I unbaptize myself

lamesausage

Is it possible to get my birth certificate back from the catholic church? My friends said to me that you can write a letter to the church and officially renounce your membership with that mad house. Any advice is appreciated, thank you.

Iwannahurl

TTBOMK birth certs record no information about religion.

Baptismal Certs record Birth Cert info, but not the other way round, AFAIK.

http://www.groireland.ie/registering_a_birth.htm

I doubt there is any procedure, or any need, for "renouncing" the Catholic Church. Just forget 'em...

gozunda

lamesausage wrote: »

Is it possible to get my birth certificate back from the catholic church? My friends said to me that you can write a letter to the church and officially renounce your membership with that mad house. Any advice is appreciated, thank you.

Yes you can.....

Not so much as getting your birth certificate back but rather having your name taken of the list of "baptised" catholics (not that you had any say in this anyway)

I believe you must go back through the diocese that you were baptised in.

Will try and find a link I saw previously....

Edit: Ehhh I was wrong and right!. You could deregister but they appear to have abolised that - probably something to do with the stampede of disgusted inviduals who no longer wish to associate themselves from the dubious goings on of the CC.


LINK

See also this link for previous methodology (Post #5) LINK

Jellicoe

Yes, but the churches don't do em

Hold your own de-baptism ceremony.

There's an opening for atheist.ie

Neodymium

It was the case that you could defect from the catholic church through countmeout.ie, however the catholic church stopped accepting defections a few years ago.

magicbastarder

the church will not remove your name from the baptismal record, nor should they, as it is a historic document.
you were baptised, and that does not change.

if you do not consider yourself a member of the church, and you do not partake in any of their activities, you are not a member.

JuliusCaesar

Maybe you could invent your own de-baptism ritual?

As the original ritual involves pouring water over your head, maybe a de-baptism would involve a hair-dryer. Invite a few people round, stand around, get two people to be 'atheist parents' whereby they promise to renounce superstition and uphold reason, blast you with a dryer and bob's your uncle. I'm sure you could hire somebody in a strange outfit to officiate solemnly for not a lot of money - you may even find volunteers here!

Galvasean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAo_rEgR4xU

endacl

I wasn't baptised. I had water poured over my head by a man in a dress when I was a baby. I didn't partake in a sacrament dedicated to a non existent deity, and therefore don't regard myself as baptised. However the men in dresses regard it is their own affair. Nothing to do with me.

Gbear

I'm pretty sure there's a clause in the Irish constitution that prohibits people from forcing you to be part of an organisation.

I would assume that refusing to remove you from such a register would contravene that? No?

endacl

Gbear wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there's a clause in the Irish constitution that prohibits people from forcing you to be part of an organisation.

I would assume that refusing to remove you from such a register would contravene that? No?

The argument would be that the bap-dismal record is simply a record of historical fact. That the head-wetting in fact happened.

The best way to not be a cat-lick, imho, is simply not to be one. And don't bulls1t on the census form. Mark the correct box.

Folks, you're neither a jedi nor a pastafarian.

Although jedi would of course be exceptionally cool.

lamesausage

So basically at the moment you can't officially discount yourself from the statistics of the church, which they use to make claims about the amount of Catholics in the country. What an absolute disgrace. I was aware that the countmeout site had been suspended because of recent events, but is there any other way around it? My baptism may be historical fact but whether or not I am considered a catholic by the state, and them is important to me.

What about excommunication?

kneemos

It would be a simple thing to make a note that you were de-babtised if they want to maintain historical records presumably.

doctoremma

lamesausage wrote: »

So basically at the moment you can't officially discount yourself from the statistics of the church, which they use to make claims about the amount of Catholics in the country. What an absolute disgrace. I was aware that the countmeout site had been suspended because of recent events, but is there any other way around it? My baptism may be historical fact but whether or not I am considered a catholic by the state, and them is important to me.

What about excommunication?

Official church policy is that baptismal records are not used to count the number of Catholics in any country, rather stats from the most recent census are used.

Agree with E above, qualifying yourself as a pastafarian on a census firm might feel like you're sticking it to the man. But a serious statement of your lack of religion is more useful to your cause.

Dave!

Short answer "yes" with an if, long answer "no" with a but...

Iwannahurl

doctoremma wrote: »

Agree with E above, qualifying yourself as a pastafarian on a census firm might feel like you're sticking it to the man.

Because of the misspelling above I thought "pastafarian" was also a typo.

It was too funny to ignore, so I just had to look it up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523

magicbastarder

doctoremma wrote: »

Agree with E above, qualifying yourself as a pastafarian on a census firm might feel like you're sticking it to the man. But a serious statement of your lack of religion is more useful to your cause.

plus, it's an offence to lie on the census form.
however, the census form is confidential, so if they know you're lying, they can't tell anyone.

robindch

Gbear wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there's a clause in the Irish constitution that prohibits people from forcing you to be part of an organisation.

Possibly. And if so, it's certainly worth a test-case if somebody has a few months to spare.

magicbastarder

and several hundred thousand euro. and a thick skin do deal with the derision. and a loose grip on reality.

jhegarty

robindch wrote: »

Possibly. And if so, it's certainly worth a test-case if somebody has a few months to spare.

It's a case that would fail.

The Catholic Church doesn't have a membership, it's only a record of an event that took place on a date in the past.

It would be the same as someone taking a case against a preschool to remove their attendance records because that persons attendance took place without their informed consent.

robindch

jhegarty wrote: »

The Catholic Church doesn't have a membership, it's only a record of an event that took place on a date in the past.

The Vatican disagrees and asserts the existence of a "permanent bond":

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

Vatican wrote:

It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.

magicbastarder

it doesn't matter what the catholic church claims. claiming you are a member is not forcing you to be part of an organisation. your interaction with that organisation will be what determines whether you are a member.

Jellicoe

magicbastarder wrote: »

it doesn't matter what the catholic church claims. claiming you are a member is not forcing you to be part of an organisation. your interaction with that organisation will be what determines whether you are a member.

but if a gold club was claiming me as a member, and I was not, would I not have the right to have this claim corrected ?

wobblyknees

There's got to be something in the fact someone has to recognise the church to unrecognise it.

magicbastarder

Jellicoe wrote: »

but if a gold club was claiming me as a member, and I was not, would I not have the right to have this claim corrected ?

how would this claim affect you?
i now claim you are in my 'forever friends' club. this does not involve any financial, personal or physical requirement from you. do you have legal recourse to get me to declare you're no longer in my club?
the long and the short of it is you were baptised, and that is a historical fact. the church in ireland do not make any further active claim to you being a member; they do not have your contact details, and do not know if you're still alive. they have no members roll.

if you wanted to take them to court to get them to remove you from their organisation, you would have no way of proving you are a member. because you're not.

Dades

The church claim a supernatural event happened at baptism that they don't control.

A constitutional case would serve only to highlight the absurdity of it, as a Judge cannot force a member of the clergy to undo an imaginary supernatural event - or even to pretend that they could.

Just light a Chinese lantern as a symbol of your freedom or something, and move on.

magicbastarder

Dades wrote: »

Just light a Chinese lantern as a symbol of your freedom or something, and move on.

those things drive me mad. pretty littering.

kneemos

Dades wrote: »

The church claim a supernatural event happened at baptism that they don't control.

A constitutional case would serve only to highlight the absurdity of it, as a Judge cannot force a member of the clergy to undo an imaginary supernatural event - or even to pretend that they could.

Just light a Chinese lantern as a symbol of your freedom or something, and move on.

They were doing it until a couple of years ago whats changed?

magicbastarder

the church moved the goalposts, basically.

Jellicoe

magicbastarder wrote: »

how would this claim affect you?
i now claim you are in my 'forever friends' club. this does not involve any financial, personal or physical requirement from you. do you have legal recourse to get me to declare you're no longer in my club?

Yes but you're using my falsely claimed membership, without my permission, to endorse your club and give it a better public image than it has. Also if your 'forever friends' club was subsequently shown to be involved in child abuse I doubt you would be too happy that they claim you are also a member without your permission. Why should some not be allowed to have the public record corrected like others did ? This record will be inspected by future generations.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

The church claim a supernatural event happened at baptism that they don't control.

They're not claiming a supernatural event. On the contrary, they're asserting the existence of an "ontological bond" which is, effectively, a statement concerning the state of some quality of an individual, a state which baptism confers and which is indissoluble within the terms of the church.

Before this went to court, you'd need to check very carefully whether the Vatican asserts that membership of the church is a direct implication of the existence of this "bond" (it probably just suggests it, rather than implies or asserts it). And you'd need to verify exactly what the Constitution says about a citizen's right to repudiate membership, and whether the two understandings of membership and the two understandings of organization are in the same general class.

Legally, and without checking either, I'd say it's a long shot. But if somebody had lots of cash and time to spare, it would certainly be an interesting case to take.

Dades

robindch wrote: »

They're not claiming a supernatural event. On the contrary, they're asserting the existence of an "ontological bond" which is, effectively, a statement concerning the state of some quality of an individual, a state which baptism confers and which is indissoluble within the terms of the church.

You say tomatoes... :pac:

Galvasean

magicbastarder wrote: »

plus, it's an offence to lie on the census form.

Better fine the vast majority of 'Catholics' so.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

You say tomatoes...

I'm sure the Vatican can redefine them as fish for theological purposes

kneemos

If babtism is indissoluble within the terms of the church how come they were dissolving them a couple of years ago?

endacl

robindch wrote: »

Dades wrote: »

You say tomatoes...

I'm sure the Vatican can redefine them as fish for theological purposes

Hmmm... Think I might have to redefine the Vatican. Their own definition doesn't suit me. What's good for the goose, and all that. Any suggestions, good and witty people of A&A?

theteal

fill out the census form properly, op. job done

norrie rugger

Does the church not use the baptismal records as an argument for numbers of "Catholics" in the country?

If they are using these figures to boost their standing and to "legitimise" themselves, then I would imagine that there should be a way to "unsubscribe"

Galvasean

norrie rugger wrote: »

Does the church not use the baptismal records as an argument for numbers of "Catholics" in the country?

If they are using these figures to boost their standing and to "legitimise" themselves, then I would imagine that there should be a way to "unsubscribe"

I don't think they really need to when 90 odd percent of Irish people are happy to count themselves as 'Catholic' on the census which is considered a more legitimate way of counting. :rolleyes:

magicbastarder

kneemos wrote: »

If babtism is indissoluble within the terms of the church how come they were dissolving them a couple of years ago?

they weren't dissolving them afaik, they were placing a supplementary note on the the baptismal reigster that X no longer wanted to be considered catholic.

kneemos

magicbastarder wrote: »

they weren't dissolving them afaik, they were placing a supplementary note on the the baptismal reigster that X no longer wanted to be considered catholic.

That would be good enough for me.

Jellicoe

magicbastarder wrote: »

they weren't dissolving them afaik, they were placing a supplementary note on the the baptismal reigster that X no longer wanted to be considered catholic.

indeed that would suffice to set the public record straight for future generations, so why are others not allowed to do so ? surely they have the same rights in Irish state as those who got their public records amended ?

magicbastarder

future generations will depend on census returns rather than baptismal records, so as long as you put yourself down as no religion on the census, you've set the record straight.

kneemos

magicbastarder wrote: »

future generations will depend on census returns rather than baptismal records, so as long as you put yourself down as no religion on the census, you've set the record straight.

The census is anonymouse and has nothing whatsoever to do with unbabtising yourself.

doctoremma

kneemos wrote: »

The census is anonymouse and has nothing whatsoever to do with unbabtising yourself.

Although it might not name a specific person as having defected, a quick comparison of numbers will show how many people have left the church after baptism.

kneemos

doctoremma wrote: »

Although it might not name a specific person as having defected, a quick comparison of numbers will show how many people have left the church after baptism.

Couldn't care less about the numbers it's purely a personal thing to break all ties with the church

endacl

kneemos wrote: »

Couldn't care less about the numbers it's purely a personal thing to break all ties with the church

Consider them broken then. Works for loads of people. I'm not sure why people get so exercised by the de-baptism thingummy. My personal perspective, as an athiest and a not-a-catholic, is that the 'baptism' was an empty charade, carried out by a delusional (though no doubt well-meaning) man in a dress. I didn't consent to it. I certainly didn't participate, and it therefore didn't happen. What did happen was a baby got an unexpected and inefficient head wash. And in cold water too I'd imagine. Oh, and my family had a nice day out. I presume. I don't remember it....

What the church might consider me to be is of little concern. It's just one more item on the looooooooooong list of things they're wrong about.

doctoremma

kneemos wrote: »

Couldn't care less about the numbers it's purely a personal thing to break all ties with the church

Understood. Just saying that if you look at, say, 4 million baptised, then see that only 2 million declare Catholicism, you can tell immediately that a fair few have broken ties with the church.

I haven't ever made a formal declaration but openly admit that I don't live in a country where Catholicism is anything other than a minority (indeed, far more minor than the atheist sector). Were I to find out that my name on that record was somehow allowing the church to demand power, I'd probably try to have it updated in some way.

I think officially, the census is the way to go. Personally, you can make your views known to family and friends.

kneemos

I think it's because the church are so fond of having ties and control over people that it would make me happier if I had no connection,just feel uneasy about having anything to do with it.

magicbastarder

my stance is that i'm not going to worry about the effects of a ceremony which i don't believe has any effect.
no point in giving credence to it by requiring it be undone.

endacl

kneemos wrote: »

I think it's because the church are so fond of having ties and control over people that it would make me happier if I had no connection,just feel uneasy about having anything to do with it.

But you don't have a connection. Their misunderstanding. You don't have anything to do with it.