crap with a shotgun

session savage

So heres the story, I can take the eye out of a magpie at 75yds with a .22lr, I have on numerous occasions headshot a rabbit from 100 to 120yds off the shoulder with my .223 and have shot rabbits prone at 500yds but I swear if I was asked to shoot the ground with a shotgun I'd miss.
Now my main problem is I have an old kestrel side by side and I am afraid to go out shooting clays with it to practice because I was told the walls of a SxS are too thin to be shooting clays (too many repetitive shots can weaken the barrell?)and its cast for a right handed user but I shoot left handed.
So I have three questions.
1. Can I practice with clays and how many shots would I be safe to shoot in a short space of time

2. Should I trade in my shotty for a straight/left hand cast shotgun

3. should I just give up


Any help lads would be appreciated because I'm fair sick of missing.

Witcher

The cast on the gun is likely to be your problem..it's not shooting where you're looking..have you patterned it?

4200fps

How are you with other shotguns? The one you have might not be fitting you at all. Fire at a target at 40 yards and see what your pattern is like. Try different ammunition too and see if theres much change. About the rabbits 500yards on rabbits is excellent shooting. What make of scope and magnification is it?

session savage

4200fps wrote: »

How are you with other shotguns? The one you have might not be fitting you at all. Fire at a target at 40 yards and see what your pattern is like. Try different ammunition too and see if theres much change. About the rabbits 500yards on rabbits is excellent shooting. What make of scope and magnification is it?

Thanks, the scope is only a Hawke Nite-Eye 4-16 x 50. I cant remember exactly how much it cost me but it was less than 300 euro and it does the job perfectly on my Tikka.

When I'm patterning it should I take my time and aim or just do it quickly? Ive never patterned a shotgun before. Im wicked green with regards to shotguns really.

Tikkat3

Im no expert in S x S guns and i have never had one but I was at a sporting shoot yesterday and a lad was doing quite well with one shooting 'driven grouse' type birds.

It will be very hard for you to get accurate and lead correctly with the cast being wrong for you and an incorrect fit. You could get the stock reworked or replaced by a good gun smith if you are happy with the gun and want to hang onto.

there are a few guys that have do make and alter stocks, I have never used them but from memory, Pat Sludds in Wexford ( I think) and a guy called Gerry Gearon in Tipperary are supposed to be good. i am sure there are plenty more too.

It might be worth going to a stockist with a gun fitting system to see exactly what way you shoot and what gun would be best suited.

If you fancy changing the gun and it doesnt have sentimental value, you could pick up something that suits your shooting better.

Finally NEVER give up!

Tikkat3

session savage wrote: »

When I'm patterning it should I take my time and aim or just do it quickly? Ive never patterned a shotgun before. Im wicked green with regards to shotguns really.

Take your time. You will be trying to see the spread of the lead across the target. The target will be static so not going anywhere so there is no need for speed

The main lesson you want to learn is how much lead is on target and the spread you get when you aim dead center. If half the lead is off the target or if the pattern is very bad, you can try a few different loads through it and see if there is variation but if you are getting very little lead on the target, definitely is a 'fit' problem between you and the gun.

session savage

The gun has no sentimental value at all. The only reason Im hesitant to sub it is the god awfull length of time it takes for a substitution to come through. I prob will sub it after this season but for now id rather be missing than not shooting at all.

rowa

session savage wrote: »

Now my main problem is I have an old kestrel side by side and I am afraid to go out shooting clays with it to practice because I was told the walls of a SxS are too thin to be shooting clays (too many repetitive shots can weaken the barrell?)

I wouldn't listen to whoever told you that load of rubbish anymore because they obviously don't know their a**e from their elbow. I have an old english made side by side thats about 110 years old and regularly do 50 bird clay shoots with it, no problems. Most guns on driven shoots until fairly recently would have used side by sides and they get through as many cartridges as a clay shooter.

Your kestral isn't all that old , they were very popular with rough shooters/farmers and were sold in lots of gunshops in the early to mid 80's.

session savage

Sound, I can get a bit of practice in so. I was inclined to believe him though because Ive never seen anyone use a SxS in a clay competition and have seen SxS only sections in some competitions.


With regards to pattern what am I looking for? Its obviously got to be hitting where I aim but do I want a big spread or what.

Thanks for the help folks.

Tikkat3

session savage wrote: »

Sound, I can get a bit of practice in so. I was inclined to believe him though because Ive never seen anyone use a SxS in a clay competition and have seen SxS only sections in some competitions.


With regards to pattern what am I looking for? Its obviously got to be hitting where I aim but do I want a big spread or what.

Thanks for the help folks.

Plenty lads use them and there is generally a S X S only competition too, so you can compete.

With regards patter, you want to see the general spread pattern you are getting and how much of the pattern is on the target. Generally the patter should be kinda circular so if half of it is not on target you will quickly see.

Your gun is probably 1/4 and 1/2 choked if its for game so you should get a decent pattern with if, if you are hitting the target efficiently.

Witcher

session savage wrote: »

Sound, I can get a bit of practice in so. I was inclined to believe him though because Ive never seen anyone use a SxS in a clay competition and have seen SxS only sections in some competitions.


With regards to pattern what am I looking for? Its obviously got to be hitting where I aim but do I want a big spread or what.

Thanks for the help folks.

You want an even spread over your point of aim..if you have a + in the centre of the plate and you aim right at the middle but your shot is patterning far left/right or to one of the corners you have a problem but if your shot is spread nicely around the + then it's shooting where you're aiming.

badaj0z

Have you checked which of your eyes is your master eye? If you are right handed and have a left master eye then you will hit nothing without closing your left eye before taking a shot.

4200fps

session savage wrote: »

Thanks, the scope is only a Hawke Nite-Eye 4-16 x 50. I cant remember exactly how much it cost me but it was less than 300 euro and it does the job perfectly on my Tikka.

When I'm patterning it should I take my time and aim or just do it quickly? Ive never patterned a shotgun before. Im wicked green with regards to shotguns really.

Good shooting. Not a bad price either. Take your time firing at 40 yards. When you sight down the barrel you shouldn't allow yourself see any of the rib at that range only the sight. If the gun suits you and you know your master eye just give yourself some practice. My sxs is a low shooting gun so I know how much i've to raise it above the target if its a long shot

Double Barrel

Session

To add a little bit to the already good advise in this thread - take a gander at this graphic by P&B:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57672524&postcount=18


A very simple Point of Impact board using a Full choke firing No.1's at 16 yards and the gun is shooting a bit high which is to be expected.



The simplest and most conclusive way to find out where your gun shoots is to shoot it! .... at a pattern board. If you have removable chokes - use the full choke tubes supplied with your gun.
There should be a central mark, which is the target. Stand about sixteen yards away, to use the board, and focus on the target area in the centre. I take two shots aimed like you would a rifle, as a reference.

New piece of paper/cardboard or fresh paint.

Mount and lower the gun twice, and on the third time as the gun hits the shoulder, fire. Do not aim. An area should emerge, after five or six shots, where the bulk of the shot is concentrated, and for every inch that the pattern is “off” target, the stock will need to be adjusted by a 1/16 th of an inch. If the main shot concentration is 4 inches high and 4 inches left, for example, the stock needs to be given 1 / 4 inch of cast and 1 / 4 inch comb height.
Ideal shot distribution is 60% above the target 40% below unless a high shooting gun is favoured. A trap gun for example should pattern high because in the initial stages of flight the targets are always rising. A gun that is to be used for shooting flushing birds should also shoot high for the same reason. A few shots at the pattern board can reveal a multitude of sins to the trained eye and if it’s done right.

Double Barrel

Some more reading

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69871494

cookimonster

This will be open to argument but quite a few guys who are good with rifles have trouble with shotguns. Even though there is form and procedure shotguns are mostly instintive shooting while rifles are more calculated and technical. The fact that you are a good shot with a rifle and are proficent in long distance shooting may be a hinderance to you developing your shot gun shooting skills. I was brought up with rifles and found it very hard to develop a target lead or follow through and kick the habbit of ' aiming' at my target.

Shot gun fit is important, but plenty of guys shoot guns that don't 'fit' them and still hit a high precentage of targets.
One of the most important things about shot gun shooting is consistency, that is consistancy in your stance, gun mount and follow through. What you need is a fellow shooter who knows about the latter and is willing and able to coach you through your technique.
One of the things we do in our club is to shoot off the back board of a DTL clay trap that is fixed in place. The novice or experinced shooter who wishes to correct any faults will shoot from directly behind the trap. They will continue to shoot this way until they consistantly break clays. Then the trap is unlocked and allowed to traverse, again the individual will shoot until they are consistant. The shooter will move back two to three paces each time they become comfortable. This is a simple and effective way of building consistancy and confidence. Shooting birds travling away from you should be mastered before trying crossing birds.
Practice, Practice, Practice....................... but remember if your still not hitting clays then your doing something wrong so seek help. A few of use did courses in relation to shot gun instruction and even the elder lemons and good shots amoung us found them very usefull.

One shot on kill

I shoot on the left Andy shotgun is a right hand cast I always practices on clay and I never had any trouble. Same set up with the rifle and same thing just practice.

But if the gun doesn't fit you may change but do you feel comfortable

declan1980

I agree with cookimonster on that. I started on a rifle, and found it very difficult when I got my shotgun. But plenty of time shooting clays sorted that out.
But the opposite can be true as well. Someone who started on a shotgun can find it difficult to get into shooting rifles. The biggest thing with them is often that they jerk the trigger instinctively, but load of practice sorts that out too

meathstevie

Shooting a shotgun in a way is like passing a ball in a game of football. You look at the lad you want to pass the ball to and you sort of gage where you need to kick the ball so he can control it without having to alter his run. It's not an exact science, you don't actually measure his speed, you don't have an opportunity to perfectly position the ball etc etc etc..what you do is you position yourself as well as you can, you look at your man, track his movement and your foot swings at the ball and away you go. After some practice you'll get the hang of it and the more you do it the better you get.

Shooting a shotgun at a moving target is pretty much the same once you get your basic mounting sorted. You put eyes on your target and at the same time the gun comes up, now let your eyes do the work and the hands will follow where the eyes look, now swing that little bit past it and pull the trigger, job done ( most of the time ). From there on it's a matter of building up experience and learning to gage how much lead to give a different quarry in different conditions.

The main thing to get into your head is that it's all a fluid, dynamic situation unlike aiming a rifle at a virtually static target. Pick up your target, mount/point the gun, go with your target, lead past it depending on circumstances and pull the trigger while following through.

snipe02

lads how important is balance i read and hear all this stuff about a well balanced gun but what difference does it make

meathstevie

If a gun feels well balanced to you it basically means that the weight distribution of the particular gun suits your liking and handling it will feel sort of effortless.

If you mean balanced as a shooter in essence you're talking about stance and posture. Feet positioned in such a way that you're standing nice and solid but still able to quickly shift your mass around to react to a target and your gun solidly mounted into your shoulder, and quite often your upper body slighly leaning forward to absorb recoil without throwing you off balance.

A classic example of such a stance would be feet shoulder width apart, weak foot to the front pointing towards the target, strong foot towards the back at a 45 degree angle with the weak foot and your knees slightly bent. Your upper body would be slightly bent over your weak leg with your weak shoulder pointing slighty downwards towards the target. Cheek firmly but not cramped into the stock and your strong hand firmly but not cramped pulling the stock into your shoulder. Try not to pull with your weak hand because the only thing that's going to achieve is pulling you of target, quite likely left and low for someone who's right handed...

cookimonster

If you have your stance right but are shooting left or right of a away Target lift your elbows up until they are at shoulder height this will ensure the gun is not chanted. Adjust your fore grip so that you are not over reaching, if your grip is too close to you you will feel the gun to be muzzel heavy. Remember gun to cheek not cheek to gun.
Make every one parinoid and practice in frount of a mirror every day.

session savage

So i just patterned the shotgun and I forgot to bring my phone so Ill describe what happened.
I set up a big box at 16 yds and fired four shots at two separate points aiming down the barrell and taking my time. The front trigger fires the right hand side barrell and has a bigger spread. The shot placement was very low though with the most of the shot hitting about 7-8 inches low and a couple of inches to the right.
The rear trigger fires the left hand barrell and has a tighter spread but seems to shoot where I pointed.

I then fired a few shots at a new target as described above by mounting the shotgun a couple of times and firing on the third time as soon as the shotgun was mounted to my shoulder.
The results of this showed the height to be correct but although a few pellets did hit the target the majority seemed to be shooting about 9 inches to the right.
I presume this is because the gun is cast for a right handed person and me being left handed is causing the miss.

Would I just be better off getting a left hand cast or straight gun?

Vizzy

session savage,you may already know this/have tried this and if so, apologies.

Firstly,do you know which is your dominant/master eye ?
If not, you should make sure that you are shooting off the correct shoulder.
Secondly,if your right eye is your dominant eye and you are shooting off the left shoulder,you are bound to be off.Simply solved though,close your right eye:)
If neither of these 2 are an issue then the cast is probably the problem,although I have a Silver Sable which is basically the same as your Kestrel and I just checked and there is no noticeable cast one way or the other.
Hope this helps.
Viz

cookimonster

badaj0z wrote: »

Have you checked which of your eyes is your master eye? If you are right handed and have a left master eye then you will hit nothing without closing your left eye before taking a shot.

Seriously go and check your dominant eye. There are two right handed shooters in our club that have left dominant eyes. They where shooting right handed / right eyed for years, but since we managed to persuade them to change over to left hand they are more consistent and better with their shots.
Point your left first finger at a static point in the distance while keeping your both eyes open. Now while holding that same point close one eye. With one eye closed if you still have the same sight picture (finger covering the point you are looking at) then the open eye is your dominant eye. If your finger no longer points at the same point then that eye is your week eye. Shoot from the shoulder of the dominant eye regardless of weather you are a leftie or rightie.
Remember barrels of SxS are desinged to have a converging point of aim. So sighting down the centre will give you a similar aim point for both barrels. Obviously yours are choked separately so you'll see different patterns. Some one here with experience with SxS will be able to give you better advice but IMO I think your range is too short to determine shot placement you will need to back it up to 35 yards to get a good pattern.

cookimonster

Sorry Vizzy you got there before me, very hard to type fast with sausages for fingers.

session savage

cookimonster wrote: »

badaj0z wrote: »

Have you checked which of your eyes is your master eye? If you are right handed and have a left master eye then you will hit nothing without closing your left eye before taking a shot.

Seriously go and check your dominant eye. There are two right handed shooters in our club that have left dominant eyes. They where shooting right handed / right eyed for years, but since we managed to persuade them to change over to left hand they are more consistent and better with their shots.
Point your left first finger at a static point in the distance while keeping your both eyes open. Now while holding that same point close one eye. With one eye closed if you still have the same sight picture (finger covering the point you are looking at) then the open eye is your dominant eye. If your finger no longer points at the same point then that eye is your week eye. Shoot from the shoulder of the dominant eye regardless of weather you are a leftie or rightie.
Remember barrels of SxS are desinged to have a converging point of aim. So sighting down the centre will give you a similar aim point for both barrels. Obviously yours are choked separately so you'll see different patterns. Some one here with experience with SxS will be able to give you better advice but IMO I think your range is too short to determine shot placement you will need to back it up to 35 yards to get a good pattern.

Ooh my effing God I'm right eye dominant!!! I would NEVER have guessed that as it always felt so natural to shoulder my rifle to the left and look through the scope with my left eye too. I never close my right eye when looking through my scope as i can easily ignore my right eye.

session savage

I just had to go down and check which eye I use when shouldering the shotgun and although according to that little test I am right eye dominant I definitely use my left one and ignore the right once a firearm hits my shoulder. ??

cookimonster

Ok so now try the test with the shot gun. Mount the gun repeatedly onto the left shoulder with the same point of aim, both eyes open, you should be looking down the centre of the two barrels. Once your comfortable quickly mount the gun again. Close your right eye if your sight picture jumps then you are definitely using your right eye to aim from your left shoulder.
Shotgun shooting is about looking at the target and bringing the gun to the face and not the face to the gun. So if the gun is not pointing directly where you are looking you will always be slighty off. You can learn to be a good shoot even when not using the dominant eye but you will be a even better shot if you can get good cheek weld under your dominant eye. Target, eye and gun will be a lined.
You can indeed close one eye but this will effect depth perception and limit field of view. The lefties in the club still shoot rifle with right eye right side, but shoot shoties with left eye left side.

Double Barrel

snipe02 wrote: »

lads how important is balance i read and hear all this stuff about a well balanced gun but what difference does it make

Snipe
Everyone has a different preference but, to me, the most important aspect of any shotgun is balance. The effort it takes to swing the gun. Sometimes referred to as Moment of Inertia or MOI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia
It is what makes the gun lively or steady. It is a combination of the weight of the gun and how that weight is distributed. In other words the dynamic between the hands feel of a shotgun.

I can get a pretty good idea of balance by simply resting the gun on the edge my hand, but I wouldn't do it with someone else gun. As a general rule of thumb a well-balanced game gun should have half of its weight between the hands , one fourth toward the muzzles, and one fourth toward butt. These are referred to as the "half weights".
Different shooting discipline and of course every shooter will have their own preferences and requirements.
In his "Gun Book" British author Gough Thomas describes an empirical test he used to define the "balance" of a shotgun, by which he meant a traditional British side by side. He said that the measurements he made included weight, point of static balance, least transverse moment of inertia and radius of gyration.

The purpose of the test was to quantify the amount of effort required to swing the shotgun in question.

Double Barrel

session savage wrote: »

So i just patterned the shotgun and I forgot to bring my phone so Ill describe what happened.
I set up a big box at 16 yds and fired four shots at two separate points aiming down the barrell and taking my time. The front trigger fires the right hand side barrell and has a bigger spread. The shot placement was very low though with the most of the shot hitting about 7-8 inches low and a couple of inches to the right. Just imagine (extrapolate) where it impact on a 40 yard shot!
The rear trigger fires the left hand barrell and has a tighter spread but seems to shoot where I pointed.

I then fired a few shots at a new target as described above by mounting the shotgun a couple of times and firing on the third time as soon as the shotgun was mounted to my shoulder.
The results of this showed the height to be correct but although a few pellets did hit the target the majority seemed to be shooting about 9 inches to the right.
I presume this is because the gun is cast for a right handed person and me being left handed is causing the miss. You are just proving what you did with your aimed shots which is your right barrel is misaligned.

Would I just be better off getting a left hand cast or straight gun?

Session Savage
Pay for a session with a good shooting coach would be my advice.

session savage

Two things.
I think some tuition would be a good idea so if anyone can recommend somewhere...

BUT... how much good will lessons do if my gun barrel is misaligned?? I'm really beginning to think a new shotty is in order.

Double Barrel

Not shooting lessons.

"I'm really beginning to think a new shotty is in order."

A good coach -or a stock fitter- will be able to determine if you require a left or right hand stock, what your stock measurement's should be, cast on or off, LOP DAH, DAC etc. some have adjustable stock guns to shoot (try-guns ).

cookimonster

Take DB advice, get yourself to some one who knows what there about, weather it be a coach or fitter before you think of a new shotgun. Your stance, grip, cheek weld etc will have an impact on shot placement. So if your technique is not right even a fitted gun won't shoot good.
A good stock fitter will determine cast, comb hieght, length of pull of your stock. All due respect to RFD's but there's a lot of sh*t sold to those who are not in the know. Even if you ask about fit most would not be able to steer you right.
My last tupence is that I seen the good shots in the club try out others guns and still be able to do better than the rest of use. Check out the human factor first as this is a cheeper and more reliable fix.