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What is the average wage in Ireland?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    spacetweek wrote: »
    It's interesting to me that there seems to be a particular age group/demographic on here. May I ask how old you guys are? And what industry you work in?

    I don't know anyone who makes less than 25k. The only time that occurred briefly to me or anyone I know was when we graduated and got crappy starter salaries, but within about 6 months we were all > 25k. These are typical wages in lreland.

    Nobody makes less than 25k unless they are only 6 months in the job or it's sweeping the streets.

    This is very condescending there are loads of the workforce on less than 25K. Workers in retail ( in such as convience shops, fast food resturants and even in supermakets). care staff in some nursing homes even last week on the radion staff contracted to the HSE through an agency were on 9.5/hour.

    There are hundreds of thousand more on between 25-30K working as truck/van drivers, general operatives in the building/construction trade.

    Remember the average private sector wage in Ireland is around 33K so for every worker on over 50K there is 2-3 on below 33K to balance.

    Why do you think there is such pressure on to lower the minimum wage, the Hotel, resturant and pub trade is staffed mostly with workers on arounf 25K at the most.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭kodoherty93


    I read in the Irish Times recently to be in the top 20% of earners you have to earn €100,000. However if the minimum wage is only 8.65 a hour that small 20% and even the 1 % at €450,000 distorts the whole figures. For eg the walton family in the US(they own about half of walmart supermarkets) have more wealth than the bottom 20% of americans


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,860 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    mhge wrote: »
    Because people with a degree don't understand what average means; and that to get a €35k average one guy on €75k must be balanced by a bunch of €25k folks.
    Here is a story about statistics I made up for my son:
    Once there was a boy who asked his parents to double his pocket money to €40 a month. When his parents laughed, he got angry. “The average guys in my class get a month is ten times that”, he said.

    His parents were gobsmacked, but suspicious. They asked their friends and all of their kids were getting €20 a month too. When they quizzed their son further he owned up that he had included the teachers after tax salary in his average: €503 [15,000+(30x€20) divided by 31].

    This highlights the difference between the average (or mean) and other measures. If the son had reported the mode (most common figure) or the median (the figure at which half the set got more & half got less), both of those would have been €20. But the mean can get skewed by a small number of more highly paid individuals.

    And it also, incidentally, shows that pay can be fair and yet averages vary between groups. Imagine that there were another class with an identically paid teacher and only ten pupils. Instead of an average of €503 [15,000+(30x€20) divided by 31] the average for that class would be €1,381 [15,000+(10x€20) divided by 11]. Both teachers are paid the same, all students are paid the same, but the average for one class is almost three times the other.
    And that is why the mix of employment means average public sector pay and average private sector pay will always be different. There are more doctors in the public sector; more retail staff in the private. You might argue retail staff should be paid more, you might argue public sector workers are paid more here than in other countries – those are separate questions. While the mix is different the averages can’t be usefully compared, any more than the two class averages above can.

    That is why every month the CSO says average pay for the public sector and private sector cannot be directly compared.
    Now let us never speak of this again.

    ...............................


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    nice story and it has some merit. What cannot be so easily explained away however is why the percantage differences between private and public sectors in the UK and Ireland are so diverse.

    In the UK the public sector earns 7% more than the private sector (average salaries). In Ireland it is at least 25% (and that is the most conservative figue I have seen, many would say it's more like 50%, but anyway).

    So why is the difference between average pay in the sectors at least 3.5 times greater in Ireland than the UK???????


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Any idea what the median wage is? Might give a more appropriate estimate than the average.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

    $24,677 in 2007 so I imagine lower than that now. The high wages of a minority skew the average.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0328/1224314010417.html


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Average pay for a full time worker in Ireland is about €45,000. €22 per hour X 40 X52.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,860 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    OMD wrote: »
    Average pay for a full time worker in Ireland is about €45,000. €22 per hour X 40 X52.

    Thats assuming a 40 hour week.
    Most 9-5 jobs are actually 9-1 & 2-5 to allow for a lunch break.

    I would class that working week as 35 hours and hence €40,040 as the average full time working salary, in my opinion of course ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    kceire wrote: »
    Thats assuming a 40 hour week.
    Most 9-5 jobs are actually 9-1 & 2-5 to allow for a lunch break.

    I would class that working week as 35 hours and hence €40,040 as the average full time working salary, in my opinion of course ;)
    Most "9-5" jobs are in fact 9-6 jobs as very few firms pay people for their lunch break (which must be taken and in many firms it's an hour, compulsory). The only time I was ever paid for lunch was when I worked shift for a spell. It's common with shift work to be paid for your breaks for some reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

    $24,677 in 2007 so I imagine lower than that now. The high wages of a minority skew the average.
    $24,677 when adjusted for PPP. That's not the same thing as the actual median so isn't all that relevant here.

    That is, the median wage is not €19,000 (that's roughly what $24k is in euros). Adjusting for PPP takes into account things like the cost of living, cost of goods, taxes, etc etc to work out what the buying power of the median wage in one country would be if they were in the United States.

    In PPP terms, Ireland = 1.25 where the US = 1, so that adjusted median wage of $24k translates to an actual median of $30k, or about €23.5k.

    Of course, that's all very rough, the figures are from 2007, and it's household income versus personal income, so can't be compared to the published €35k average per capita income.

    Edit: Useful household income stuff here:
    www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/silc/2010/silc_2010.pdf


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,860 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    murphaph wrote: »
    Most "9-5" jobs are in fact 9-6 jobs as very few firms pay people for their lunch break (which must be taken and in many firms it's an hour, compulsory).

    yeah theres a whole argument for "am i paid for my luch" when on a salary or it it simply built in.

    Its a tough one to work out hours wise, most offices close at 5. some open till 6 or 5.30. My old job we stayed till 5.30 mon-thurs but on Friday we got to finish at 2pm :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    seamus wrote: »
    $24,677 when adjusted for PPP. That's not the same thing as the actual median so isn't all that relevant here.

    That is, the median wage is not €19,000 (that's roughly what $24k is in euros). Adjusting for PPP takes into account things like the cost of living, cost of goods, taxes, etc etc to work out what the buying power of the median wage in one country would be if they were in the United States.

    In PPP terms, Ireland = 1.25 where the US = 1, so that adjusted median wage of $24k translates to an actual median of $30k, or about €23.5k.

    Of course, that's all very rough, the figures are from 2007, and it's household income versus personal income, so can't be compared to the published €35k average per capita income.

    Edit: Useful household income stuff here:
    www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/silc/2010/silc_2010.pdf

    Good points. I;'ve found an income distribution http://www.colly.tv/irelands-income-tax-distribution-chart/ which the author is using to compute tax burdens.

    If you look at the %s in each income bracket you get an idea that the 'average wage' is skewed upwards. If the figures were copy n paste-able I'd graph it out and do stats, but they're not so I won't


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    OMD wrote: »
    Average pay for a full time worker in Ireland is about €45,000. €22 per hour X 40 X52.

    Average private sector wages in Ireland is 612 euro's/week this would include industry, retail, hotel etc. The average Public sector wage is 920 euro see link and it is not from the Indo so all Indo lovers can read as well.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/0830/opinion/public-v-private-sector--growing-pay-gap-is-unfair-205760.html


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 12,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zascar


    You may find this interesting:

    income-distribution-ireland.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Of course it doesn't really make sense to compute average wages from multiple professions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Of course it doesn't really make sense to compute average wages from multiple professions.

    No it doesn't makes sence to show anything that shows the difference between public sector and private sector wages. even though the average private sector wage is much the same in Ireland and in the UK. But the difference in public sector pay in the UK is 7% above the private sector while in Ireland the difference is 40%.

    Anything that shows that public sector workers are overpaid and is unfavourable to public sector must be wrong and not make sence


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Of course it doesn't really make sense to compute average wages from multiple professions.

    No it doesn't makes sence to show anything that shows the difference between public sector and private sector wages. even though the average private sector wage is much the same in Ireland and in the UK. But the difference in public sector pay in the UK is 7% above the private sector while in Ireland the difference is 40%.

    Anything that shows that public sector workers are overpaid and is unfavourable to public sector must be wrong and not make sence
    I'm talking about something like getting an average that includes the wages of a CEO and shop assistant etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Zascar wrote: »
    You may find this interesting:

    income-distribution-ireland.png

    18% of people earn less than 10,000? Obviously they are part time but it sounds high. Are they including pensions?


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    spacetweek wrote: »
    ...........

    Nobody makes less than 25k unless they are only 6 months in the job or it's sweeping the streets.

    Many retail workers are on less than that, along with many hairdressers, creche workers, beauticians and many others. That's over €12/hour.

    Lots of the working population have no formal third level qualification.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭Peanut


    Zascar wrote: »
    You may find this interesting:

    income-distribution-ireland.png

    Hard to disentangle median wage from this since it doesn't differentiate between part-time/full-time work etc.

    Still, you can ask - What is the median gross income range for this table?
    • Total number of cases is 2151456.
    • The 50% mark in terms of population would then be 2151456/2=1075728.

      We can find the median gross income by looking at what bracket the 1075728'th taxpayer falls in to.

    • Adding the number of cases to find this individual:

      394539+71794+112979+74477+124386+204127+76215=1058517

      ..the start of the 27,000 to 30,000 bracket

      +106521=1165038 ...the end of the bracket.

    • So our 50% mark is near the start (17211th) of the 27,000 to 30,000 bracket.
    --

    However, the 0-10,000 figures almost certainly skew things, as many of them probably don't represent fulltime jobs or other circumstances.

    So if we ignore this bracket, and just look at gross income above 10,000, then the median will be at 2151456-394539=1756917/2=878458
    The 878458th income is within the 30,000 to 35,000 bracket:
    • Start of bracket is 71794+112979+74477+124386+204127+76215+106521=770499
    • End of bracket is 770499+155769=926268
    • The 2009 median income just considering taxable gross incomes over 10k is therefore roughly three-quarters way through the 30,000 to 35,000 bracket.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Good work peanut. But I wouldnt remove the < 10,000. Those are real earned wages and I significant part of the population. I suspect most are doing it part time, to supplement household income, but it is what it is.

    For non-normal distributions we should abandon the average, average is a joke stat.
    You clearly don't understand what's going on do you ?, elites are not employees on a wage, they are the people that earn profits on the labour of others. Check out the ST list of Ireland's rich, this 'recession' has made them wealther than they ever were in the celtic tiger.

    Quite. Or they earn rent. Very very few PAYE workers in Ireland earn above the 250K bracket. We can see from that bracket that 10,667 (0.5%) people earn above 250K but more tellingly they earn 6B between them, or on average - 600K. However the average is misleading here too - I bet there are a few people earning tens, or hundreds of millions. The top 0.25% probably take the lions share of that - about 4-5 billion.

    And they would be earning dividends or profit or capital gains. Nobody gets that in wages - we don't have American type CEO salaries here, or the banking magnates from London. The point being is that increasing "income tax" - a misnomer, if ever there was one - because it is really a PAYE income tax wont do anything. This myth pervades the left and right. Anyway, to tax the top 0.25% we need to tax dividends and capital gains.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Peanut wrote: »
    However, the 0-10,000 figures almost certainly skew things, as many of them probably don't represent fulltime jobs or other circumstances.

    So if we ignore this bracket

    If you ignore this bracket it would be fair to ignore some of the upper shelf too, as they are likely to work more than one job or have several income streams. The table is probably fairly representative the way it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Quite. Or they earn rent. Very very few PAYE workers in Ireland earn above the 250K bracket. We can see from that bracket that 10,667 (0.5%) people earn above 250K but more tellingly they earn 6B between them, or on average - 600K. However the average is misleading here too - I bet there are a few people earning tens, or hundreds of millions. The top 0.25% probably take the lions share of that - about 4-5 billion.

    And they would be earning dividends or profit or capital gains. Nobody gets that in wages - we don't have American type CEO salaries here, or the banking magnates from London. The point being is that increasing "income tax" - a misnomer, if ever there was one - because it is really a PAYE income tax wont do anything. This myth pervades the left and right. Anyway, to tax the top 0.25% we need to tax dividends and capital gains.
    Dividends, capital gains and profits are taxed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    OMD wrote: »
    Dividends, capital gains and profits are taxed.

    at much less than the maximum PAYE rate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Jellicoe wrote: »
    You clearly don't understand what's going on do you ?, elites are not employees on a wage, they are the people that earn profits on the labour of others. Check out the ST list of Ireland's rich, this 'recession' has made them wealther than they ever were in the celtic tiger.

    You were the one who brought the 'elites' into this! You neglected to say that 'elites' aren't employees on a wage. Even 'elites' have to make a living, they have a salary/wage or some kind of income. Their earnings affect the overall average. I'm just trying to understand your post.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    TheChizler wrote: »
    You were the one who brought the 'elites' into this! You neglected to say that 'elites' aren't employees on a wage. Even 'elites' have to make a living, they have a salary/wage or some kind of income. Their earnings affect the overall average. I'm just trying to understand your post.

    but you said


    That would mean the 'elites' earn less, the 'non elite' earn less, or there are less 'elites'. What's their plan again?

    In relation to him saying the average wage would fall. Your claim is incorrect because falling wages != falling profit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 492 ✭✭Jellicoe


    TheChizler wrote: »
    You were the one who brought the 'elites' into this! You neglected to say that 'elites' aren't employees on a wage. Even 'elites' have to make a living, they have a salary/wage or some kind of income. Their earnings affect the overall average. I'm just trying to understand your post.

    what's more intresting is that you sprung to the conclusion that elites have to be employees, and they do for the worker Vs worker race to the bottom scam and lies to work. Must be the sunday indo brainwash.


  • Registered Users Posts: 956 ✭✭✭Arrow in the Knee


    Sinn Fein TDs get the average wage of around €34,000 so it must be in or around that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    but you said


    That would mean the 'elites' earn less, the 'non elite' earn less, or there are less 'elites'. What's their plan again?

    In relation to him saying the average wage would fall. Your claim is incorrect because falling wages != falling profit.
    Jellicoe wrote: »
    what's more intresting is that you sprung to the conclusion that elites have to be employees, and they do for the worker Vs worker race to the bottom scam and lies to work. Must be the sunday indo brainwash.

    Even CEOs have a wage. And I don't read the Independent. Would you please clarify who the 'elites' are as I clearly don't understand? I don't see how my post is incorrect, as if either group's wages were to fall and the other to remain static, the average wage would fall.

    The original statement was that if the 'elite's plans go ahead, the average wage would drop. I assumed you're saying the plan is to take home more money. If they make more money, either the 'non-elites' would make less or stay the same most likely, and therefore the average wage would either remain the same or rise. I was just asking what you meant cause the start of your sentence didn't tie in with the end of your sentence.

    This is a bit silly in fairness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Even CEOs have a wage. And I don't read the Independent. Would you please clarify who the 'elites' are as I clearly don't understand? I don't see how my post is incorrect, as if either group's wages were to fall and the other to remain static, the average wage would fall.

    The original statement was that if the 'elite's plans go ahead, the average wage would drop. I assumed you're saying the plan is to take home more money. If they make more money, either the 'non-elites' would make less or stay the same most likely, and therefore the average wage would either remain the same or rise. I was just asking what you meant cause the start of your sentence didn't tie in with the end of your sentence.

    This is a bit silly in fairness.

    You think everybody earns a wage? Have you heard of dividends, profits, capital gains? That's what the top .1% are earning


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    You think everybody earns a wage? Have you heard of dividends, profits, capital gains? That's what the top .1% are earning

    Well if we're in a thread about the average wage what are you doing bringing people who don't earn one into it! And also I think it's highly likely that if they're involved in some level with a company they are earning some sort of a wage as well.


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